yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
None of the players take full advantage of the Sabre DAC, not even the LG stock player. None will send native DSD to the DAC for decoding. All convert to PCM first. Conversion from DSD to PCM is a LOSSY process, thus your music will no longer be bitperfect. No player will natively send above 192khz either. Any DXD files that you have will first be decimated then played. Decimation is a lossy process and thus your music will not be bitperfect for DXD files either. The sabre DAC in the LG V20 is capable of natively playing all of those formats and rates without decimation or conversion!!
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] vlad48:
Soon this will change - PowerAmp Beta will take care of this...
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
Please elaborate and send links. Thanks.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
In order to spare the OP any further confusion, can w agree these 4 players will play 24\192 files? Although , I have some DSD files , Because of the limitation, I fill my SD card with a majority of 24\192 files. Power AMP (alpha, beta, delta whatever) .may eventually do this but not at present, to the best of my knowledge, the other 4 do.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
Poweramp still only sees the Snapdragon DAC and wont make use of the Sabre DAC

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 PM ----------

The latest build of PowerAmp (704 alpha 3) will still NOT see or use the Sabre DAC contrary to what others have reported. If you can, please upload a screenshot showing anything other than Snapdragon DAC in use.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] demonknight:
Not to be a PITA but he did say Poweramp Beta :) A lot of requests have been made in that forum to get Poweramp use the V20s DAC. We can only hope it comes in the beta version which is apparently due this month.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] thisisjason:
It doesn't see the Sabre DAC but it is using it. Every music app uses the Sabre DAC when it's turned on, that's how LG has designed the software, what Poweramp can't do is output DSD or anything over 48khz to the DAC, but that doesn't mean it isn't using the DAC at all.

If I'm using sufficiently revealing earphones on complex enough music, I can hear the difference when turning the Hi-Fi setting on and off, but it is subtle, which isn't unexpected, DACs don't make that much of a difference, it's amplification power that makes a bigger difference. You can easily tell when you're not getting enough amplification. Poweramp is clearly using the Sabre chip for amplification, otherwise high impedance mode wouldn't work, and given that it's an integrated chip (DAC+Amp), I'm doubtful that it's even possible for it to be using the Snapdragon DAC for decoding and the Sabre chip for amplification.

What I can agree on is that it's not using the Sabre DAC to it's full potential, there's no true hi-res support even on the latest Poweramp alpha
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
In post #50 it was demonstrated that PowerAmp only uses 16\48khz when playing 24\192. Files.

https://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=70693413&postcount=50
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] thisisjason:
Right, it resamples hi-res, which they should fix, but that doesn't mean it isn't using the Sabre DAC at all, which was my only point
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
So the outcome of all this is that there ares still only 4 players that output 24\192 and PowerAmp isn't one of them.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
The outcome is that no player can make use of the 384khz PCM and 512DSD that the ESS Sabre DAC supports. It will not use it's 4 pipelines (Quad DAC) until the DAC can be correctly exercised.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] bobca2:
That was correct in January, but not now.........

In Poweramp 704 downloaded & installed in early May, the HiFi setting works fine. I show 24 bit, 192 khz for output to my headphones & car AUX use for Flac files.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

.........NOT from Google Play. The Google Play version is labled 703/704, but it only installs 703. That does not work for the V20 HiFi DAC setting.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] wric01:
Gave up and got a music player Fiio X5iii which blows away most desktop dacs, not just my opinion but read the reviews. Besides adding more features drains phone batteries on smartphones anyways, i find it better to have 2 devices.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
Then why have this phone at all? Sell it and get and an "IDrone" (patent pending). When this phone is driven correctly, it's a Maserati, when not, a 10 year old Prius (IMHO of course).
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
It's actually very easy to rip them if you have the right player.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
Umm, I just finished ripping 24 SACD ISO' of most of Miles Davis catalog to DSF's. Although the V20 won't play it natively, something like Black Player will convert it to 24\192 as tested by using the phone as a source into Audacity to view the playback objectively.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
Congratulations! You are happy that you purchased a Lamborghini that is limited to only going 70 MPH. All of the parts are there to go 210MPH, but as long as it looks good and moves, you are ecstatic.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] @rbiter:
Some cars you don't need to drive fast. Lol.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
Soooo...in this analogy 24\192 equals 70 mph? Where exactly was I promised 210 (or 2.8 ghz playback)?

When I bought this phone last October, the only real data I had was the Android police tech breakdown which cited 24\192 and the 4 dacs if I plugged in a high impedance headphone. That's a lot better then "70 mph" on the smartphone "Monte Carlo" race circuit.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
The ESS Sabre DAC inside of the V20 can do PCM 384khz and DSD512. The ability to play with the sprint variation was PCM 48khz only. Some variations with the LG Stock player can do up to 192khz with no DSD at all. The high performance ENGINE is there, but there is no way to take advantage of it.

http://www.audioxpress.com/article/...uces-highest-quality-audio-for-mobile-devices

You got other things wrong also. The amplifier section has nothing to do with the 4 DAC pipelines. The amplifier steps up the voltage if it detects a higher impedance headphone is plugged in. This DOES NOT increase the fidelity, but increases the volume only. The 4 DAC pipelines are ONLY fully used if a DSD and/or 192khz file is played. Otherwise only 1 or 2 pipelines are used to optimize battery use.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
OK, What phone will play DSD's natively (not DOP) from the 3,5 jack? As for 192k files, suppose somebody has 5,151 files of that calibre (but who is counting. Is there a phone that could store a portion and play those with out conversion? Please lead me out of this barren silent wilderness that the ''v20 has doomed me to.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
1. Prior to the V20 announcement, NO phone could play DSD natively. That is why I wanted to purchase this phone. It had the necessary hardware to do so. Currently there is an Onkyo phone in Europe and Asia that can play native DSD

2. Assuming that the average 192khz music file is 110MB, You can fit over 2,700 songs on a 256GB MicroSD card. They are pretty cheap, small and easily swapped if the 193 hours of music is not enough to carry around.

Remember, this phone was marketed as a high-resolution music player that also happened to make phone calls.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] Nemozilla:
Power amp is currently working on an update to give the app full power of the V20's dac
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
I would love a PowerAmp solution but we've been promised an update since November of last year.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] wric01:
vivo xplay 6 plays dsd natively

only vivo xplay 6 plays dsd natively
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
Nope. Converts all to PCM. This is the ONLY phone that will do native DSD...

https://www.mobilescout.com/android/news/n78464/Onkyo-Audio-centric-DP-CMX1-smartphone-CES-2017.html

http://www.tech-boom.com/onkyo-granbeat-dp-cmx-1/

It is available in Asia and Europe right now.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] wric01:
It is a chinese product after all, as such the translation is lost when describing native dsd they say "hard decision decoding" http://eng.soomal.com/edoc/10100000116.htm . What leads me to believe it's native is the inherent noise / clipping they describe while play certain dsd files which is common with hardware/native dsd players playing .dff files.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] qs504792:
Onkyo HF Player. "Get greater control of how music sounds on your Android device with our touch-adjustable linear-phase FIR equalizer, which offers 16,384 discrete bands of HD equalization with zero loss in audio quality. Create and save your own EQ presets or select an optimized filter created by professional musicians. HF Player for Android also enables playback of Hi-Res Audio formats including FLAC, 192 kHz/24-bit WAV, and DSD at no extra charge."

Just an option

link to playstore

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onkyo.jp.musicplayer&hl=en
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
That app does the same thing that all of the others do. It sees only the Qualcomm DAC, thus it converts all DSD to PCM and decimates to 48khz. It also takes any PCM above 44.1khz and decimates to 48khz. It doesn't even see the Sabre ESS DAC in the V20.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] speculatrix:
You can download a variety of audio test tracks at

http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-test-files.aspx
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] speculatrix:
If I use the LG music app it indicates [ HiFi ] 24bit 192kHz on the screen when playing the studio master flac file.

It sure sounds much nicer than the mp3!
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] SaintCrispin:
I use the Tidal HiFi app and it utilizes the DAC.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
All things being equal, a 44.khz/16 bit standard resolution audio file will sound better than an .mpg file.

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 PM ----------

There are 2 DACS in the V20. The Qualcomm DAC and the Sabre DAC. How do you know which one the Tidal app is using?
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] Shadow Assassin:
Poweramp is the best, and your volume is low probably because of the pre-amp. Go to the EQ and it is the very first slider on the left. Turn that up but not all the way. Then go to Setting/Audio/Advanced Tweaks, and enable MusicFx. Then go to the tones screen, its to the right of the eq. And turn on MusicFx and then hold the button down and it will take you to the snap dragon audio+ select the Normal preset, its all the way on the right.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] SaintCrispin:
It uses the HiFi DAC which I thought was a ES9218 component from ESS Technologies. The Qualcomm DAC is when you have the HiFi option turned off, I thought.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] ben cherian:
Seems like you have more idea in what's going on behind.

Off topic

Guys I need your valuable opinion about the audio dac on this for NORMAL earphones like RHA s500. does it feel lot different as of compared to other phones on normal earphones or do we need High impedance headphone ?

Am in dilemma of purchase decision
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
You do NOT need high impedance headphones to get good sound.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
Well, it sure as heck helps. Particularly if you're playing 24\192 files locally and your headphones are over 50 ohm. It will make your hair stand on end.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] @rbiter:
Yep. Don't need high impedance headphones. Having good cables helps though.

I have some beyer's 32 ohms and 250ohms. Both sound awesome. Sadly I'm not a heavy headphone listener. But I think I am going to get another v20, add to my 6 genuine e battery collection and probably sell my JDS Labs CD5 DAC/amp to offset the costs. I haven't touched that thing since I got this phone.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] tommy_vercetti:
But then that seems to be the criteria to activate the DAC on the LG v20 which gives better output
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] RojasTKD:
I have no idea how the V20 works (mine arrives next Monday), but the 50 ohm headphone would probably activate it's AMP into high output mode, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the DAC I'm guessing.

From a quick skimming of this thread there seem to be a lot of conflicting information on when the Saber DAC is engaged. :eek:
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
The amplifier step-up is activated. This does NOT increase the fidelity, only the voltage. As a result, you hear an increase in volume but that is all.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

I can sell you one.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] RojasTKD:
That's what I figured. It the only think that really makes sense with regards to higher impedance headphone.

Now that I have a V20 coming I'm going to have to figure how the hi-fi audio works, which can be difficult with so much misinformation/ contradictory information posted. :eek:
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] speculatrix:
What does the LG music app show when it's outputting via the Sabre DAC?

Is there somewhere I can download a test file which will allow me to exercise the better DAC?

Can I be sure my H990DS even has the DAC?
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
The LG music app indicates only the format of the INPUT file. It does not state what is being output.

http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html has a great set of test files in many formats. These files were actually recorded using all Hi-Res equipment as PCM 352.8khz/24 bit

If you have a V20, you have the Sabre DAC. The problem is that you will NOT be able to use it to its full potential.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] @rbiter:
From my understanding using high impedance mode steps up the amp and activates all the DAC's to bring the already invisible noise floor even lower. You're still getting awesome output when high impedance is not being used and you dont need the extra voltage for volume because your <50ohm phones might distort or worse blow. The sad fact is LG gimped it so all the features available can't be taken advantage of though. I still buy compact and convert them to 16/48 so I still get CS quality which is really all you need. Higher than that and the recording needs to be well mastered and instruments in the mix to be fully appreciated, thus LG dropped the ball. Don't quote on all this as my memory is foggy on the details but more than happy with what the end user hears.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] JulAlx:
Has anyone figured anything new on how to output bit-perfect audio into Sabre DAC?

Because the internal DAC is not implemented via an USB interface, then the existing apps won't work unless they are specifically adjusted for this phone to be able to utilise the DAC. Till then, the whole Quad DAC story is just a marketing gimmick I'm afraid no matter what app you use; whether stock LG music player or paid apps from Google Play. Very disappointed with my purchase. I thought I would get rid of carrying around USB DACs, but seems tried and true methods are safer.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
You are correct!

---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

The voltage increase has nothing to do with the ESS Sabre DAC pipeline
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] Beall619:
SoundCloud

The quad dac option stays enabled in soundcloud, noticeable difference...
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] JulAlx:
Those who claim the ESS DAC makes any difference perhaps are no audiophiles at all! Went through all the pages and the word 'bitperfect' was mentioned only twice I would say!

I have got an NAD HP-50 as well as a Sennheiser IE800 headphones. I have couple of DACs including Chord Mojo, Meridian Explorer 2, etc. and have been in the world of audiophiles for couple of years. I don't hear any difference with the Quad DAC turned on or off except a boost in the loudness.

As I said earlier, the only way to make sure DAC is engaged is to find a way to output bitperfect audio into the DAC.

To anyone who could see this message, please don't waste your money on the Quad DAC gimmick. You will simply be disappointed.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] mlknez:
Agreed!
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] JulAlx:
There is much funnier thing. ES9218P is a chip designed specifically for android devices and uses I2S interface for communication. Even in professional DAPs like Onkyo DP-X1, Pioneer XDP-100R/300R and Onkyo GranBeat phone, bitperfect playback is impossible because literally there is no app available for such thing! Resampling is inevitable even with above mentioned DAPs which is quite a joke!

esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/sabre-hifi-mobile-dacs/es9218p/
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] @rbiter:
I'm just saying I think there is higher amp output when the quad part is enabled. Not saying they go hand in hand, but they're related. Just seems LG dropped the ball overall, instead of making the DAC user and dev friendly, they limited it to a mess where nobody is 100% sure what is going on. I am quite sure for 90%+ of people that down/up sampling occurs in some fashion. That is a big reason I still stick to CD's and I always rip my flac's to 16/44 or 16/48 to keep compatibility going. Always rip my MP3's to 320kb and don't use a variable bit rate. I don't know why I still rip Mp3's because I rarely use them but I guess it's so I can meet the lowest denominator and give whoever the best compressed file available.

I really wish LG had made the DAC more accessible and friendly. I think it would've got more people in the door. IMO it is still the best mainstream phone available for audiophiles/wannabes that isn't a phone where sound was the absolute highest priority and the rest of the features were just mid range or less.

Imagine if the Sabre DAC was as user friendly as Wolfson dad's since they were borderline open source. Many great things were done. Seriously doubt Cirrus logic will ever meet us halfway unless they already have and I don't know.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] X23R07:
It works

It works on my H990DS.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
These last few answers are why this wonderful DAC has done very little to substantially increase LG sales. Simply put, people into phones generally aren't into any more complex music reproduction then what can be squeezed out of a pair of IDrone ear buds. The sheer amount of mis-information that is promulgated as the "final word" on this device is really LG's fault. They couldn't market blankets to Eskimos.

Here is a little test any body who doubts the ability of this phone can perform, if they have the phone (I seriously doubt many of the "experts" chiming in on this phone actually have one). Find a piece of music you know well. Find the music in cd quality (not streaming) 16\44.1 and then find it in 24\192. Copy those files to the phone. Find a high impedance set of headphones (over 50 but 150 is the sweet spot) , A real set, no impedance trickery here.

Turn the high impedance off. Listen using one of the 4 certified apps that use the DAC. Listen to the cd quality file, listen to the high res file. Turn on the high impedance dac. Verify the headphones have ignited the DAC. Listen to both files again. If you can't hear the amazing difference, contact your audiologist to check your hearing or clean out the accumulated wax.

Hearing is everything.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] JulAlx:
With all the due respect, but you certainly have no idea about bit-perfect audio! Read about it please. We are not talking about amp gain that impedance could be discussed. We simply want an application to be able to output bitperfect audio into the DAC.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
When I want native DSD and bit perfect playback, I got an external DAC\Amp (for me, the IBasso Bushmaster) and use USB Audio Player. These are the only viable solutions to date for portable DSD bitperfect playback, other then a DAP.

At the present rate of development and market place, this is likely to be the only foreseeable solution. Apple doesn't give a **** about music (other then monetizing it) and everybody else seems content with streaming services. None of these realities are going to engender bit-perfect capable DAC's or apps that will work on any phone. Bluntly put, there is no money in it for samsung, apple, htc or any other major manufacturers, to develop these features. When Astell & Kern's get around to making a phone built into their $4000 DAP is the next, most likely (IMHO) iteration of a bit perfect device you can use to make your next booty call.

It's bleeding freaking miracle that LG will include this DAC on the LG V30.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] JulAlx:
How can I turn on the high impedance mode with a low impedance yet decent headphones?
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] dartinbout:
Step 1: Get a stencil of the logo of your low impedance headphones. Step 2: Buy a set of headphones with an impedance over 50. Step 3: Spray paint the new headphones black. Step 4: Stencil the logo of the low impedance headphones on to the new headphones. Step 5: Enjoy listening to music reproduced better then any other device you use to play Candy Crush. Step 5: Stop whining.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] JulAlx:
So my Sennheiser IE800 aint't any good for this phone!? Doesn't make sense!

I'm all skeptic about what you'd suggested but for the sake of trying, I have ordered the necessary goods for below method:

reddit.com/r/lgv20/comments/62mnbx/how_to_put_v20_in_high_impedance_mode_without_root/
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] @rbiter:
Good grief guys. The quad DAC makes for a lower noise floor. Better black background. And probably activates an amp. All for the incredible price of whatever you paid. You got a DAP that can almost compete with the high with a very robust mobile OS and cellular network attached to it.
[LG V20 Questions & Answers] gustav30:
Forgive my ignorance but thought I read in head-fi regarding low impedance buds and danger of putting DAC in high impedance mode? Possibly blow out the drivers in your IEMs? I mean I've done the high impedance trick on my V10 with the Alsa app, I've done it with my V20 as well with adapter and holding the mic button down on insertion of ear buds. Except for the volume being extremely loud on my Etymotic HF5s I can't tell a difference in quality between high impedence mode/aux mode/regular mode. Now I can certainly hear a difference when I turn the DAC off, but that is different.

I mean my H5s are 14 ohms. Why would I want to drive them like my HD650s or my Beyer DT880s?

The other nasty side effect I've experienced when using my IEMs in high impedance mode is the volume of notifications. Good grief talk about blowing out an ear drum. I set notification volume down to a minimum and they are still extremely loud in high impedance mode which makes sense if I was wearing my HD650s.

I think it's possible that people are tricked into thinking aux or high impedance mode is better for their IEMs because the most immediate change is a difference in volume. It's like the same phenomenon when testing an external headphone amp that has a bunch of gain modes. At home I have a Matrix M-stage as one of my amps, and in the early days it was assumed that the high gain modes provided better sound than the low gain modes because when switching gain you immediately heard a volume difference and more volume was better. The only way to truly test was to have someone set the volumes of the different gain levels exactly the same, so in a way, to remove that perceived feeling that something has changed.

Sorry for the ramble, as I started this reply on my phone about 15 minutes ago, and don't quite remember where I wanted it to go.