yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] HeatWave:
True. But if the big telcos also start complaining then it might get out into the open too. I mean would you , being t-mobile eg, like it if you were getting a lot of complaints you cannot resolve yourself?

If they get enough complaints they will "force" HTC to supply them a proper working device. I think I have the legal right to just return my TytnII to t-mobile, since it does not perform as stated.

And I don't think for a second it's sad at all. They sold us a product that is faulty and the refuse to do anything about it. In cases like this I don't even care if they would go bankrupt over this even. Treat your loyal customers with respect. This is my 6th HTC product, will there be a 7th?

But all actions are evenly 'needed', individual complaints to HTC and telcos, attempts to get mediacovarage and maybe even a class lawsuit.

However, if we can resolve it without costs, that's the best. So some hardworking developer here can get some compensation for his hard work ;).

Pity for mega-corporations? Never. :P.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] herg62123:
I DO WORK FOR AT&T WIRELESS.

Keep sending me pm's with any and all documentations. I have forward all 12 replies to higher ups as well as HTC Rep for AT&T. The more you send the more AT&T will get involved. We want to hear from you. So keep sending me the info requested.

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN FORWARD THROUGH AT&T WIRELESS AND THEN TO HTC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeb8-m5opDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qbaDLzOU_Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhHG377wkQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8uq4FtduY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjS9zz2bww

A lot of people are even talking about a class action lawsuit against HTC. See this link http://www.htcclassaction.org/

I'm having major problems with my tilt along with thousands of other people. Please see this video to demonstrate one of the problems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qbaDLzOU_Y

Please see this for a list of signatures: http://www.petitiononline.com/tytn2vid/

there was more but this is the major of so far.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
As I reported on other threads, I would be more than ready to start here in Taiwan a local lawsuit
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mreaglejr:
wow, do u think there will be any reactions? i really hope so..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] juiceppc:
htcclassaction.org is actually a well put together site with a lot of non biased info. IMHO
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wis38:
Didn't had time to go through all the posts, so sorry if doubling post.

Googling today on words MSM ATI imageon, I fell on this nice presentation "3D Graphics and SpeqG Update" from the Qualcomm/Brew 2007 Conference.

Some excerpts:

on MSM7200/7500, peak performances for Imageon3D is 4M TRIS /SEC, and for Imageon2D is 133M PIXELS /SEC

accellerated APIs: OpenGL ES 1.0 Common + some OpenGL ES 1.1, Direct 3D Mobile, SM2 JSR 184, BREW Render2D, Direct Draw, GDI

Exciting benchmark results are in slides 10 to 14 (difficult to resume here).

And also: "QUALCOMM provides wide range of best-in-class integrated graphics solutions with the MSM7200 comparable to the DS or PSP"

... "Graphics performance easily accessible through standard APIs such as OpenGL ES, Direct 3D Mobile and JSR 184"

From Freescale web site (they are licensing Imageon cores): "Imageon is OS agnostic. The Imageon driver has been successfully ported to several industry standard as well as proprietary OS platforms", and also: "contact your ATI representative for details".

Of course, ATI do not provide drivers to download for embedded GFX on their web site, but they should be the source of them to be given then to Qualcomm (they provide an application development SDK, drivers should be there) and HTC (the system integrator).

So, true we have to ask to HTC for the drivers, but they should have them readily available.

Question: has someone tried through AMD/ATI (given others do not answer)?

Nice thread, but this problem affect many HTC devices: any way to make it visible (with a sticky?) in forums of other concerned products?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Well it wouldn't hurt to inform ATi about the issue. I'm going to contact their support and PR today.

EDIT: contacted support, corporate relations and PR @ ATi just a minute ago.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FabianNL:
What was their reaction? Or did they just redirect you to HTC?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
I contacted them via e-mail so I haven't heard back yet.

I contacted the proper channels though (I had some previous contacts as I work as an editor for an online IT magazine). So I didn't just shoot blanks at "contact@ati.com" or anything like that. ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] spellshaper:
I have contacted ATI throught support about this, respond was pretty fast (I like AMD support :) ) but not too helpfull for us.

Here is respond:

"Any inquiries regarding imbedded graphics, media processing chips, etc has to go through the manufacturer of the unit.

Design specifications and the like are proprietary. If there is a release of related information, the most common approach is through an SDK (software developer kit).This would be in the developer relations part of the website."

So I hope you will have better luck ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cjensen25:
I just got off the phone to HTC, I nice speaking women answered the call and tried to make me do a soft reset and a hard reset which I mentioned to her I had done...

Then I mentioned the petition online and she laughed... So I pointed her in the right direction to the website and I also pointed her to the http://www.htcclassaction.org/ .. she was going to transfer me over to the engineer dep but they where all very busy.. so they are going to email me within 48 hours...

Lets see what they say
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wis38:
Sad news. Seems Qualcomm has never completed development of OpenGL ES drivers... :(

Looking in BREW forums I found the following thread:

12-19-2007, 06:32 PM - nEuDy

What DLLs needed??

Hi @ll..

i have an Windows Mobile 6 Device running on a MSM 7200 Chipset.

But it seems, that an OpenGL ES driver is not implemented..

so is it possible to register the dlls (i think lib_GLES.dll is one) and can use any brew oder opengl ES programs running?

What DLLs are needed for full direct3d and OpenGL ES support??

thanxx 2 @ll

Today, 10:27 AM (Jan/17) - dbacker - Super Moderator

Hi,

You need to contact a Qualcomm representative from Developer Relations or Marketing to hear about OpenGL ES support for MSM 7xxx platforms with Windows Mobile. This support is being worked on but has not been released to the general public. In other words, there is no OpenGL ES DLL (libgles_cm.dll) available to add OpenGL ES support for existing devices.

Sincerly,

Dam Backer

__________________

Dam Backer

Qualcomm, Staff Engineer, 3D Game Developer program

I'm astounded :eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
All this says is that Qualcomm has no PUBLICLY availabe OpenGL ES drivers to ADD to existing phones for consumers. Just like they no publicly available DirectX drivers.

If you look at the LG KS20 drivers in details, they do have this. D3Dm is mapped to OpenGL ES calls. OpenGL ES calls talk to the ATI hardware directly. They certainly exist, you are just misunderstanding that post.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wis38:
Sorry for my English... I may have misunderstood the message in that post.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cornellfOo:
Is it just me or does this sound like GOOD news? I took it as "they know there is no public support, but they are working on it internally." It's a bit of a stretch, but this might lend credence to the Feb update rumors?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
It's just you. The two issues have absolutely nothing to do with eachoter. See my previous post.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bram87:
I just dont think anymore that this petition will help the issue..HTC will not response to there customers because they have the stronger hand. We are just stupid customers in their eyes. HTC wont fool me again, if they wont release the drivers soon I will never ever buy a product of them again!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cornellfOo:
DOH! I guess my theory goes out the window.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Thanks to the author of http://www.htcclassaction.org we can localize the info and news about this battle (yeah, it does kinda feel like one).

Anyway, I suggest whoever is concerned about this to add this website to their signature.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Well, I wrote a letter to AT&T. I put some hope into them since their customer support tends to be pretty damn good, actually. Yeah I know, surprising... but I've been their customer from year 2000 and they've been very responsive.

Anyway... here's what I wrote and what they've responded:

Not much.. but many of us write that letter - something will probably happen.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Anyone who is located in the US / canada, you might put a complaint against HTC US to put extra pressure on this case.

link : http://www.data.bbb.org/houston2.asp (or check HTC America on better business bureau ) (www.bbb.org)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
CNET Asia Reports HTC troubles

:)Some HOT news to share from Taiwan guys.

I was able to get in touch with Jonathan Gardner (see Google) and it only took a few hours to get this on the CNET Asia Blog with his help. Thanks jonathan!

Spread the word. (and to be continued as this will create even bigger word of mouth)

Some content from the article ;

Do HTC phones actually suck?

HTC, the flavor of the month from Taipei, may be pissing some people off. While the company continues to build cred for handhelds (Dopod) and handsets (big in the U.S. in particular), I was just alerted to the fact that the emperor may actually be partly naked:

"Welcome to HTCClassAction.org. This site is intended to spread awareness about the issues with recent HTC Smartphones

and PocketPCs, and gather information for a possible class action lawsuit against HTC. That class action lawsuit will

be a last resort and is still far off, hopefully we can raise awareness and publicity high enough to convince HTC to

solve these issues without a lawsuit. It has however now been over six months since the first affected device was

released, and as of yet, HTC has done nothing."

While we need to wait for more evidence, this is a bit troubling.

Read more at

http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/theroc/post.htm?id=63001857

Best,

Jonathan
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
CNET reports Dopod 818 vs Tytn II Youtube clip

Hail Hail, After the new CNET Jonathan's blog, John Chan took it up to post a new related article on CAVE (CNET's blog site)

We got clearly a major awareness launch in the Media I guess as these very representative sites are monitored by upstanding magazines to get a story.

Read on ! :

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2008/01/18/tytn-ii-slower-than-two-year-old-dopod-818-pro-/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
Woah... My video is making it to professional reporters blogs! :p

Mind you, he says the Magician has a 195Mhz CPU, which is wrong; it's 416Mhz (according to the phone itself anyway)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
noted and posted on the new CNET CRAVE blog. Thanks for the video. You become a celebrity now :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
We got a couple more sites reporting:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/17/htc_chipset_anger/

http://mobilitytoday.com/news/HTC_Driver_Problem.html
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I think they're doing something.

This kind of response from HTC is getting more common:

"We here at HTC definitely understand your concern about being able to use your device to its full potential. In this case regarding the video rendering capabilities of your HTC Kaiser.

HTC has received similar feedback from other users and we are currently collecting examples to assist us in developing a fix. We request that you provide us with the following information about your device so that we can further investigate it. Please include:"
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] LTxda:
engadgetmobile.com reporting...

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...-angry-mobile-owners-rush-castle-htc-with-bu/

or

http://tinyurl.com/268ry7
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jehuty03:
Tell Your Local Newstation

Im usually just a lurker but i think if you tell your local newstation about it, they might be willing to show it on TV... I already sent an email to one of my local station and I will be sending more emails out to other stations soon... Hopefully one of them will show the world exactly what HTC is doing.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
CNEt ASIA informs his subscribers on HTC performace gap

Just received in my mailbox from CNET ASIA :):

http://asia.cnet.com/members/newsletters/viewNewsletter.htm?id=39247423

Title: Is your HTC device underperforming?

So, now the message is not to be found inside sites, but posted from sites towards thousands of consumers.

HTC, honestly, if your shares remain stable in the next weeks, months, you should be very very happy.

I assume that carriers are certainly not pleased with such an articles neither supporting HTC devices 9and having on their term consumer complaints)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] juiceppc:
A lot of websites/blogs are running this story now. I honestly still think HTC is going to try to shield themselves in a corner and ride out the storm. It's almost an "us" against "them" scenario.

From what I've read somewhere(which may be wrong) HTC has to pay 80-100k USD to Qualcomm per device model for the full blown drivers. If that is the case I think there are around 8'ish models that run the MSM 7200 or 7500. That would be around 750,000$ USD total to get the drivers across the board. I don't think that is too much to ask. They have totally got to have that kind of cash. We're not talking a lawsuit settlement, we're talking drivers that will make your product better and improve customer satisfaction. Don't they take pride in their products?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Even if that is true, that's a 'peanuts' amount for a company like HTC. We have however heard other things that imply what you say is not true... Guess there is no way of really knowing unless HTC or Qualcomm speaks up about it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] LTxda:
I agree that the amount is nothing compared to the revenue and profits HTC is bringing in. If you look they basically have record growth every quarter or had at least.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] liddlefeesh:
I have also been contacted about the issue and have duly blogged it, here: http://blog.evolvedsoftwarestudios....ize-if-you-can-fix-htcs-tytn-ii-driver-issue/

Hopefully if enough of us put the pressure on, and mention the issues (to our friends, work colleagues, associates and so forth), HTC will do something about it.

It makes you wonder what Microsoft think. After all, a poorly performing HTC device reflects very badly on Windows Mobile.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] herg62123:
i work for att wireless. i sold the tilt like it was going out of style. i am an owner of the tilt as well. to me this is good reason (NOT SUPPORTING THE DRIVERS) not to push this device any more. i am now going to push, yes i am going to say it, the i-phone cause apple does back up their device.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] liddlefeesh:
Not the iPhone!

Does anyone have a simple email address or contact phone to get in touch with the Microsoft representative or team that will have the most weight in getting this sorted?

It kinda makes Windows Mobile look poor.

Warm Regards,
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RayB:
I for one just purchased my brick from Hong Kong. Prior to this I was told by HTC that they would soon be releasing into the Japanese market, the TyTN II. Perhaps a good time to get Japanese bloggers and news sources up to date on this little gem from HTC.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] saajan:
HTC you must understand it now then later... later may too late for.... Have weight of force is coming toward you........... soon...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] coolVariable:
mmmmh.

Maybe people should make a run on AT&T stores to return the device ... I am tempted to try.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dmb129:
does anyone have an email address for windows mobile support / offices? I really think that getting some answers from microsoft on this issue is key. Along with contacting the phone service providers, microsoft holds a lot of weight with what is going to be done by HTC about these drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Mikulec:
I love my kaiser too much to make this step.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] klipper:
Please change thread header. Current almost 7000 (6988) signed!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wim26:
Over 7000 now!!!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ventipi:
woop woop!

HTC must care at least a little, if not they're just stupid and don't know how customers work.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wim26:
why waste time on changing the header when its going so fast......

7130 signed!!!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Moderator please update +7000 signatures

Mods,

the OP RPGO was not logged in since jan 12 and meanwhile we got +7000 signatures. Did not reply on PM.

Any possibility you can change the OP's refered number of 4210 ? guess RPGo will not mind
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bigbluebronco:
Hello all,

I have personally emailed Peter Chou, the CEO of HTC. I'm not going to post the emails because the footer requires me to keep them private, but the CEO has said that they will plan to come out with an upgrade. Now I hope that means an upgrade to the device, not an upgraded device. I believe Mr. Chou's english isn't the greatest, so hopefully he is tripping over his words. Can't make any promises, but hopefully they're starting to respond. Hope this helps fellas.

Tony
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Jimmyy:
7398 Signatures as of 01/25 !! =)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] avernix:
Change of Strategy

I dont think people should get their hopes up that HTC will actually solve this. All OEMs provide reference drivers for their hardware. I'm sure that if this was as simple as releasing a driver, it would have been done already. Either the hardware is simply not there or there are licensing issues involved. If HTC was to release a driver now, it would have to pay licensing fee to either Qualcomm or ATI for the functionality. Those would be likely higher than if the features were enabled initially and would reach into millions of dollars. If HTC released a driver and made consumers pay for it (as some media outlets suggested), they would put themselves on a much less solid legal ground (remember this affects not only video playback, but all aspects of performance, companies cannot charge for fixing production defects). Hence, even if hardware support is there, there will be no driver forthcoming.

So far there have been two types of responses from the company: private assurances that a fix is under development, and a public press release that essentially states "F*** Off!, the phones are fine. If you don't like them, buy new ones." Although some people attribute this inconsistency to incompetence and miscommunication within HTC, I am much more cynical. This looks more like a deliberate strategy to diffuse the issue by filtering out "optimists" and "pessimists" (sounds convoluted, but hear me out).

Optimists will be satisfied with the claims that a fix is in the works and would be content to go home. Pessimists, on the other hand, would take the press at face value and, thinking that nothing could be done, would go home as well. This limits the group seeking a remedy to only those in the middle and some with a lot of free time on their hands (me), making the issue much less of a nuisance and PR debacle for HTC. Meanwhile, because the official release says NO, and other claims are unofficial, the issue will die off as far as media and blogosphere are concerned. Another option open to HTC would be to release WM 6.1 update with (maybe) some performance and rendering improvements, without issuing a hardware driver. This would actually be a huge PR boost. The media and fanboys will jump on their bandwagon and hail HTC for this step, while the main issue of utilizing the hardware performance potential remains unaddressed and by and large devices are still sluggish (maybe even more so under 6.1). This also reconciles their official and unofficial statements. Of course, such an act is conditional on whether the 6.1 upgrade is provided for free by Microsoft (very likely).

A lot of this is merely conjecture on my part. However, I think it presents a possible scenario of what actually is going on and the way things would unfold. A valid question at this point is what, should community do to make HTC actually fix our devices. I have an idea, but before I lay it out, I want to hear what others think about this.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] avernix:
Change of Strategy

sorry double post
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greenbrd:
I don't get it. So Qualcomm said "Sure HTC, we'll sell you these chipsets for $XX per unit, but if you want the software that makes the chipsets work, it's going to cost you extra."

And HTC said, "Well, we certainly don't want to pay extra to make our $700 phones work as well as we're going to fool people into believing, so we won't buy the software. Maybe nobody will notice."

Is that how business is done in this arena?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] avernix:
Yes, but not exactly. All computer hardware and software business is done like that. Years ago, Intel and AMD CPUs could be significantly sped up by unlocking (drawing a pathway with a pencil on them). Most hardware and software goes through a tiering process, where in lower-end models certain features are disabled.

I think that someone in HTC decided to cut a corner, hoping that higher CPU speeds would offset lack of hardware acceleration. It's cheaper for Qualcomm to produce the graphics hardware together with the chipset, but HTC is not actually paying for the graphics part. Releasing the driver means that they have to pay for hardware.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] avernix:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/...driver-issue-will-improve-future/2#c10078824v

HTC ANNOUNCED THEY WILL NOT FIX THIS!

Basically HTC is saying that even though they screwed up, they are not willing to pay for it. HTC thinks that whatever losses they will get due to bad publicity will be offset by the people replacing their ****ty phones. The only way to pressure HTC into actually fixing this is to make them realize they will lose more money if they don't fix this issue. Here is what I propose:

Everyone who has had a bad experience with one of the affected HTC units should go on Amazon, NewEgg, BestBuy and all the other websites that sell them and provide a rating HTC and their crappy phones deserve. Firstly, it will directly decrease HTC sales. Secondly, it will generate media buzz similar to the one caused by Fox's Mass Effect blunder, thus further decreasing HTC sales.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dperren:
Actually the pencil trick was to allow overclocking. It didn't enable any other features of the processor.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] richabi:
HTC pisses me off much that...

I got so mad at my Kaiser and this whole HTC bs that I smashed my screen against my steering wheel a few times last night when my phone lagged. This "top of the line" phone is so fkn frustrating and irritating! Now my stress is gone...but so is my phone. lol Anyone got any smartphones for sale?