yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dsyro:
Come on, take it easy, noone wants to be disturbed like that! He'll upload it if and when he wants to.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RPG0:
The PC part, yes, but the PocketPC part has Qualcomm MSM7200...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
My appologies. When I read Shift I imagined Advantage. You are right, Shift has got the same MSM7200 chipset.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well it would be interesting if the shift had those drivers... that would work as well or probably better than the KS20 drivers (technical bla bla). The question is, will it even come with those drivers? I somehow doubt it. But if anybody has one, feel free to unload your Part00, Part01 and Part02 ROM dumps here :)

The Touch Dual also uses MSM7200, but AFAIK it doesnt have HWA.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] intothevoid:
I highly doubt it will come with those drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well I got the missing files now... and it did NOT make me as happy as I had hoped! :D Still struggling on, though!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gibs:
keep up the good work !!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] intothevoid:
Well thats good news most def. Sucks that it didn't work. I can't wait for it to work. LG must had there own wrappers on the dll's. I guess it wasn't as easy as we thought it would be.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
what i'm wondering is the part the radio rom is playing in all this.

I read in a thread (http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1722194&postcount=59 and after) that the radio rom was a linux subsystem in charge of all peripherals (question being, is the hwa embedded on cpu board, or a peripheral).

So it might get harder than first thought...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well it seems the kernels are quite different on the LG and the Kaiser, so it requires a LOT of patchwork. I'm still giving it a 70% chance of success though, even though it may take a while :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Thank you for keeping us informed on the progress.

Have you anything working already?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] intothevoid:
Keep it up man. You are almost there. And yes thanks for progress report. It keeps the hope alive. :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radeon123:
Really appreciate all the hard work that's going into making this work and really hope that you get it working one day :)

If you do get this working, would a rom upgrade be required to install the driver or a cab install, just curious :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
most certainly a rom upgrade, as many system files needs to be replaced.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] erikpeter:
Assuming you get this work - do you think it would be easy to port to another similar device like the Touch Dual or the Polaris? I'd assume that having the same processor they should also be affected.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
No, but I'm certainly coming closer and closer :)

Impossible to say right now. I'm doing my best to make it a simple install, but a ROM upgrade may be necessary.

That depends on IF I get it work, and HOW. If I can make it an install instead of a ROM upgrade, it is fairly likely it would not be too hard to port it to the Dual or Polaris. However, things never go as planned, so it will probably be hard as hell =p
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] AntwanL:
alright, so iv been following this thread for 2 days now, i just read through all 34 pages last night.

i just bought a tilt 2 weeks ago, its my first smartphone/pda, and i have to say i was quit disapointed because of the problem you great people are trying to fix. Chainfire mentioned that a rom upgrade my be needed and im just curious was exactly that means? is it like a custom firmware like with the psp's?

And i remember earilier someone mentioned that the phone could be a gameing platform, and i just wanted to mention that the psp's processor is a 333mhz one and up until a few months ago it was only running at 222mhz, and this phone has a 400mhz processor, so i would assume if the graphics problem is fixed that it could be better than a psp
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Jozer99:
The comparison to the PSP is not really waranted. The PSP and Kaiser use different types of processors. The PSP uses a custom processor that is closely related the the Emotion Engine processor in the PS2. This is a custom MIPS chip that was designed for playing games. The Kaiser uses a more general purpose ARM processor, with a separate graphics processor.

A good analogy would be the Nintendo 64. The games for that look pretty good, but do you realize that the N64 did it on a 50 MHz processor and 4MB of RAM? It could do graphics like that because it was specially created for that purpose. It would take a much more powerful computer to do the same graphics with a general purpose processor.

In the current firmware for the Kaiser, the graphics processor is disabled, and the brave members of this forum are risking life and warantee to try and reinable it. Even with the graphics processor enabled, the Kaiser is still not a dedicated graphics platform. It will be quite a bit better for playing casual games, but no PSP.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] AntwanL:
oh ok, i see, ya they've been trying to emulate N64 on psp for almost 2 years now and have been making some progress and have a decently working one on psp, but the explanations never really made sence till now.

so when this is fixed what can we expect? performance wise, i mean i read the explanation that Chainfire gave which was posted on www.tiltsite.com but specifically what, i know he said that the camera most likely would stay the same which really sux.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Jozer99:
We can't really be sure what the performance with the graphics drivers will be like, as there are not any PDAs with very similar hardware that have acceleration (the closest is that LG, and even that is quite different).

With drivers, it is probable that video playback will be smoother (especially in TCPMP). It is also probable that games using OpenGL ES will be faster (perhaps 20-30 fps instead of 5-10?). I have heard that there is a PSX emulator for the PocketPC, perhaps that will be usable at 20-30 FPS. Until drivers are available, it is impossible to tell.

The camera app is more limited by hardware and processor power than graphics power, so don't expect that to improve much. But then again, there really aren't any PocketPC phones that have high quality video recording or photography as a feature, you really need a Nokia N95 for that.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Err, OpenGL ES works on your Kaiser?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Came to my attention too. I second that question.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well this it for me! I have been mucking with it all day again, without much success. I'm calling it a break 'til I'm back from vacation (well I won't actually be _on_ vacation, but I will also not be near my development pc), as there's "real" work I still have to do before it starts as well. I'll still follow everything during that time, btw, I do have access to a computer :)

I've pretty much exhausted most of the tricks I had tucked away in my hat. There are a few tricks left to try, but I'm not willing to do it before I have at least two days set aside, tested memory card based flashing, etc; so I won't do that 'til the new year.

The big problem is the kernel (the 'base' of Windows Mobile) differences between KS20 and Kaiser. To make the KS20 driver compatible with the Kaiser requires a lot of DLL and function rerouting (which is a ***** to do right), but a couple of those functions are simply missing (which leads to a whole new batch of crazyness). I could go in further detail but I won't, because it's a really long story and aside from a select few here you probably wouldn't understand anyway. If only I had all the sources or technical details of all drivers and hardware :)

(BTW I've checked with a number of Kaiser ROMs as well as Touch Dual ROMs, they all have the same issue)

In the meantime, the Shift may be released and if _that_ has HWA drivers, it's probably going to be a LOT easier to transplant those than the KS20 set. Also, who knows maybe an official WM 6.1 version of the Kaiser and KS20 may be released which are more compatible with eachother.

Maybe someone else will pick this up while I'm on pause and figure it out, if so Kudos to them. I know for a fact there are a few people here who know a lot more than me on this subject - even though I pride myself in knowing more 'weird' things and tricks than the average developer, I am still new to the Windows Mobile platform.

Chainfire OUT!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] intothevoid:
Sounds good man. Thanks for your dedication in looking into this and using your time to find a solution. Its just disappointing that this device is so awesome but crippled at the same time. Taking time of can be good too cause sometimes when you get back to it you can get new ideas. Enjoy your time off.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ladytoast:
Sterling work so far Chainfire!

Makes you wonder if HTC are waiting for 6.1 before releasing the graphics drivers. From what I have seen on the videos of the smartphone version it does seem a lot more speedy (I know that could mean anything though, different platform etc).

If HTC /aren't/ going to release the drivers with 6.1 version and we (well you guys) can't hack it up there will be some sad people :(

Chin up though, it's almost Christmas...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
BTW what I said about Shift was wrong. It will most likely not be shipped with HWA PPC drivers. Just FYI.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] intothevoid:
Yeah i already knew that. HTC sucks
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Sleeper-:
@Chainfire

You've got PM
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] therealholg:
sorry to tell you that, but i think the ks20 drivers aren't that good. in fact gapi is not usable, since you'll have to power off the device and on again to get to the next frame of a gapi application.

the ks20 was thrown on the market before christmas, and i think the rom wasn't really ready.

source (german):

http://www.ppc-welt.info/community/showthread.php?t=120753&highlight=ks20+gapi

google translated (kind of funny):

http://translate.google.com/transla...light=ks20+gapi&langpair=de|en&hl=de&ie=UTF-8
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
I hear what you're saying. However, there is a lot of trouble with porting these drivers now anyway, and I'm not too sure it will work out in the end. (Better chances with WM 6.1 update anyways, if HTC doesn't provide the drivers themselves at that time). In either case, I find it more likely LG will provide an update to these drivers than HTC will.

Further more, GAPI is 'dead'. It's amazing it's still being used as it's been obsoleted by mobile DirectX in WM5. The page you post itself says that if the games do not use GAPI they work fine, they will probably use DirectX then.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] therealholg:
yes they do - problem was solved by switching (in one game) an option to direct draw.

but there are nice games with gapi... many classics for pocket pc. newer games are simpler. but look at rayman, sc2000, tombraider these are full feldged pc games.

but maybe you can "just" make both work, with software gapi and hardware direct draw / 3dmobile.

have you tried the hermes drivers?

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=297717&highlight=imageon

but since the author sleuth255 himself states out, that there aren't any driver i think this way is a dead end, too!

but i appreciate your hard work ... have a nice holiday with family and friends.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well it should be possible if there is full DX support to write a software GAPI driver that just translates to DX (there's actually a microsoft article on that, so who knows that driver may already be out there somewhere).

And if the KS20 doesn't work out there's always the new i-Mate Ultimates that are not built by HTC and use MSM7200... Maybe THOSE drivers will fit :)

But tbh, it's all just a crock of **** right now. HTC really left us out in the cold here.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Chainfire, you are a Star..take your holiday! Everyone here appreciates your work (and wait with baited breath!).

Enjoy your Christmas and forget this, then we expect you back, fully refreshed to carry on. :D

BTW, I have not put any post to the fund but when you sort this...EXPECT A BIG ONE.

You are upholding the spirit of XDA more than any of us at the moment. :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
yeah, dont worry about fixing anything until we see what WM 6.1 fixes. I am sooooo tired of the ****ty streaming video on my kaiser (stripping lines in the playback) and it's really unacceptable HTC ever released this phone without having that fixed.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
????????? Not sure what this means...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] pjwilkin:
Assuming we even see a 6.1 update for our phones

Given HTCs almost total lack of acknowledgement of any issues we have, I dont expect to see 6.1 shipped as new roms by HTC
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] stozmon:
Really?? To me, seems as though he is of the opinion that:

A. We will be getting a WM6.1 update and

B. That this will somehow impact the status of the lack of driver issue we are facing and

C. This driver issue impacts camera function.

I've been a lurker for some time and only recently started to post.

Based on reading your posts often, I'm sure that you already knew this and were taking the opportunity to sarcastically fling mud at Doug2873's post.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] nEuDy:
But there´s something to say:

The TyTN II is not a Multimedia Device!

On HTC it is only a Office-Device ;)

But i hope HTC will release an update for this driver i.e. in WM6.1...

but this take a while i think...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Sorry but I may be getting the wrong end of the last few posts (apart from the one above)???

Chainfire is working his heart out to solve a problem within the XDA-forum ideal..

This device is what?...6 months old!!...

Windows XP is 5 years old at least and still needs updates....:confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] leoiden:
man talk about word to the wise?

i am with hime!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mikeeey:
then why would they use the qualcomm 7200 chip? if they were to use it for only office im sure they would use something different.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ladytoast:
Because it is there.

Of course the cost of a device isn't the hardware alone. Different models can be software/license bound or even market bound, but they will all use the same actual hardware (to a degree). Far cheaper to use the same chip for all your devices and activate the functions you want, how many times have you bought some hardware on the specs only to find that the API's are held back? Reminds me of games consoles....

Oh.. and they do it on motorbikes all the time too :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] pjwilkin:
Chainfire is to be thanked for his work (and I do thank him)

HTC are the cause of our pains, yes it is 6 months old, and in all that time how many "fixes" have HTC issued? I think members here have done way more than HTC

Windows Mobile 6 is how old ? and MS obviously are unhappy with it (hence 6.1). One just hopes some of the 6.1 fixes/functions do get backported
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] lmbranco:
This excuse that the Kaiser is an office tool is the worst that can be used to explain a big f$$k-up by HTC.

You have to understand one thing, imagine you buy a very expensive Compaq or Sony, or whatever branded pc and you have a super video card, however the operating system has no driver so you have to use it with the default vga driver and run everything at 640x480. Do you think this is fair? Do you think that this makes sense?

Sorry, HTC just fooled all the people that bought the Kaiser thinking that it was going to be an acceptable Multimedia machine, and to my point of view, it's a phone, nothing more, as it's multimedia capabilities are below par, something that a 4 year old iPaq would do.

To be honest, i have no big hopes that Chainfire will be able to completely fix the problem, i trust him to make his best, but without documentation and API it all becomes more difficult and this can become a goose hunt.

And that HTC fixes the problem by itself, i also doubt it, but to be honest, if they don't then for me they are over, and i will be one that will ban they products and always refer to them as a bad company. I know i am only one individual, but from what i have read in the last months since the Kaiser came out, i will not be the only one. Nokia is now smiling back at me ;-)

Have fun guys, and Chainfire, thanks for your fantastic dedication to the cause!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all, to HTC i just wish them good luck, they will need it.

Edit:

In the meantime i was reading a brochure for the MSM7200 chipset and maybe i am blind or stupid but what exactly does this mean?

"Fully tested Windows Mobile®board support package with integrated

multimedia and graphics

• LTK and CETK-tested implementation of the OEM Adaptation Layer, boot code and device

drivers for all on-chip peripherals

• Turnkey integration of video, audio and imaging engines into DirectShow®sub-system

• Hardware accelerated DirectDraw®, Direct3D®and Position Location drivers"

http://www.3gchipsets.co.kr/download_library/pdf/msm7200_chipset.pdf
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
apparently means that Qualcomm do have some drivers ready for Wce, but that HTC didn't pay the fee for those licences in order to cut costs.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] evilc:
So maybe that means that all we have to do is see if qualcomm will sell end users the drivers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] EeekiE:
Newbie here rooting for the devs.

Can we as a forum buy the licence for the drivers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Yup Qualcomm has what we need, but they are 'playing dead' (I know I'm not the only person who has contacted them, and no reply to any of us). Also, they can't just 'give us a set', aside from licensing issues (possibly) every kernel for every device is a custom Windows Mobile build, this is why porting the drivers from KS20 to Kaiser is so problematic.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mikeeey:
when the iphone came out htc competed with the touch (and touchFlo). so im sure the only way they would release some drivers is if some popular gaming phone were to come out.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] SCSweeps:
I have a question. What does it mean if someone actually made a driver for it. Would the driver work automatically for all applications that use video (players, camera, ect), or just programs that specifically use D3D/OpenGL ES.

So I guess what I'm saying is, how does the whole driver thing work exactly?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bo78:
Can anyone confirm, that HTC will release an update in january '08, as mentioned here by user Xmoo?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Never heard of that and couldn't find it with a quick Google, but if it were true it would be a GoodThing(tm) !
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
I don't think anything Xmoo says can be relied on very much. The guy says in a later post it has an ATI chip in it and that they will be enabling the FM radio also!!

I should expect an update from HTC in the New Year, all this furor on this forum is hitting the news and has got to have had them beavering away at something or they won't have a market standing in the future.

Plenty more companies can jump in and take their place if they don't resolve the issues outstanding.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Hmm well the MSM7200 platform's video IS ATI based :) Don't know about the FM though.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Well, I think you have just confused 90% of the people that have looked at this thread. ME included???

We all know that people confuse the Radio ROM (thinking that it has an internal FM radio) not the CDMA/GSM but where does the ATI architechture come into it?

Not being funny just baffled at the mo!!! :)

EDIT: Ahhh the actual base video hardware is ATI but the front-end calls like Qtv and Q3d are qualcomm's own.

Understandings now I am (Yoda voice)!! http://www.linleygroup.com/npu/Newsletter/CE/ce060413.html#1

EDIT: EDIT: Hey, looking at this chipset, it provides HS

U

PA!! How about following up after you get the vid drivers sorted with fixing this failing???
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Uhm well this had been mentioned several times, I think in the thread even :)

Yeah it does. The question is, are you sure the Kaiser itself currently doesn't support HSUPA? I've seen some speedtest results in the Kaiser forum that suggest HSUPA just works out of the box.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] invasion13:
HI,

i do confirm the kaiser support HSUPA:

it has been spotlighted for its compatibility, in france ,by the french gsm operator SFR(vodafone)

experimenting this days HSUPA in Lyon or Paris
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
the qualcomm msm7200 is a "system on a chip" thingie, with a imageon-like part for graphics acceleration.

it's unlikely that imageon hardware drivers would do anything for us.

Our best hope is some official files from qualcomm/htc...

on another line of thought, i wonder what impact would the hardware support would have on battery life. dedicated graphic chip certainly beats a cpu at energy efficiency so i guess we could bet at a nice increase during video playback, 3d gps navigation, etc...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
@eska007:

TyTN's Qualcomm MSM7200 (or should I say it's Q3Dimension part) is based on ATI Imageon's architecture. So it might work.

@the_ape:

I'll try it later today and let you know.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DoughtCom:
Man I really hope we can figure this out, it would be great to make our phones even better (I mean work how they were designed to).

I LOVE my tilt but if I could play pocketnester without it lagging, or watch a XVID/DIVX movie without having to turn the quality lower it would be perfect.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
I tried drivers you attached - they don't work.

About ripping - I am not familiar with ROM modifications, so somebody else could try that. But I doubt they would work anyway.

@all: I haven't recieved reply from HTC support yet. Will keep waiting. I'm very curious what they will answer.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
Oh well, thought it was worth a try...

I wonder if we could ask Qualcomm for the drivers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
I doubt it. Qualcomm is only responsible for delivering chips just like Microsoft is only responsible for delivering operating system (Windows Mobile). It's HTC's job to make it work together. They are the ones responsible for correct drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
well... i have to disagree.

It's usually the hardware manufacturer who creates drivers for a chip with a closed API (pc graphics cards for exemple).

In qualcomm case, the CPU part has an open ARM API, so no need for any specific stuff. the rest of the beast relies on qualcomm released binary blobs,

or HTC buying the chips API specs and compiling a driver themselves.

But in the end we agree, it's HTC's responsability, as hardware seller, to offer a system conform to its specs (directXm hardware support, in this case).
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RPG0:
Check this out, maybe (just maybe) our voices will be heard

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=342500