yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
it went for £441 in the end so you were right about them not going for HUGE amounts, however if you let your Fiance dictate what you can and cant spend your money on mate whats it gonna be like when your married?:)

time to put the foot down
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pawel062:
all i know is I will get a real good laugh when it comes out and it is proven to be voice capable because i believe my source olipro. he has come thru with everything i have asked except for the htc home dll's source code. not the files but the source code for the dlls. you wont believe the stuff i get from him and he has.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
I think nobody has doubted the POTENTIAL of tweaking it to be phone capable. What we are seeing from all the evidence presented so far based on pre-production demonstration models is that the standard specification does not have the capability.... unless HTC change the specification again for the final production model.

But then, if you look at it from another angle, it really does not make sense to have phone calling function because of the size of the device. Using bluetooth is not the answer because it still requires you to carry your only phone everywhere you go. It is not practical to carry it everywhere you go, period. I would carry my Athena everywhere I go, but I will not carry SHIFT everywhere I go if I own it. So, it makes more sense to have a separate phone which can be caried around for jogging, for rock climbing, etc, with no worry about weight and battery life. So, I think that HTC might have already considered far deeper than we think, and are much smarter than we give them credit for, and have come to the conclusion that it does NOT make sense to have phone function here. Why incur the extra expenses of incorporating a phone that nobody would use? I know of a few Athena owners who are already carrying a saparate phone for the same reason I just outlined. They would not use bluetooth, period. If I own this UMPC, I would also carry a separate phone,would'nt you? So, if most of us are going to carry a separate phone, HTC will do well by not having it. After all, margin might be already very thin for them.

Just my 2 cents worth of opinion.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] LTxda:
Whoever you spoke with at HTC is an idiot. The shift will have voice capabilities like the Athena but a slower CPU, etc and in my opinion not worth spending my candy money on.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
i toitally disagree with that argument eagle steve, i for one certainly WONT buy it if it doesnt have phone capability.

Granted i am not a heavy phone user but my Sim card has both my HSDPA data package and voice package.

if i use a shift with my card i lose £25 worth of phone package a month and still have to carry 2 devices.

For the extortionate price of £800 i expect this thing to make my dinner and do the washing up as WELL as being at least Voice capable.

Surely for that price we should have the choice?

Fine if you want to use it as a phone and fine if you dont.

Otherwise what separates it from any other UMPC or small laptop.

Like i have said previously if you need 2 devices save yourself £600 and buy a ASUS Eee laptop for £200 and get a small hsdpa capable phone as a modem
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pantaloonie:
And the argument goes on... it has voice, it has no voice...

Not long now until the final production model Shift is in the hands of Joe Public, and then we will know for sure. Until then, there's not a lot of point arguing with each other.

Personally, I've cancelled my pre-order, if/when it is shown to have voice capability I'll order again, but as spacecat said, if you have to carry two devices, the Asus eee is a much cheaper option.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
It's okay to have different opinion. I'm not at all disturbed that we see things slightly differently. Often, people who disagree over an issue are in agreement on more other issues.

I understand what you said about using one SIM card for both voice and data. However, there are also Telco separating the two. I've seen some datapacs which do not allow you to do voice calling. Obviously, most voice SIM card are without datapac. If I own HTC shift, obviously I need to adjust my SIM card arrangement. In addition to separating voice and data into different card, there is also the possiblity of dual sim cards which some telco offers. So, we should not let this issue of wasting the unused call amount on a SIM card cloud our thinking.

I understand your feeling that since we pay for so much we have the right to expect everything, including kitchen sink. However, it will cost even more if we put in the toilet and bathroom as well. Nothing is free. Money aside, for me I just could not see myself carrying such a big device everywhere I go, like the way I do with Athena, just for the purpose of not missing any phone call. I said "just" for the purpose of not missing call because the battery life is so short, so I can't really use the Vista part of it like the way I use my Athena now.

If the battery life is very very good, then my response will be different again. Then, I would use the Vista part continually, and have bluetooth headset to go with it. In that case, it will make sense to have phone feature. As it is, with only 2 hours of Vista use, I can only carry it around to check the schedule, check weather(???!!!), and to make phone call, and very very hesitant to switch on the Vista part because it may not leave enough battery juice for the phone. This is not making sense.

I agree that if I need two separate device, I might as well get a sub notebook, from price/specification perspective.

This is not an argument. It is a discussion. We should be able to discuss things without getting personal or worked up. All consumers are different. Everyone makes choices differently. That makes the world interesting.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
I wasnt taking it personally and by Argument i mean a point of view. Like lawyers Argue 2 sides of a court case.

I welcome any thought out opinion in this thread

I think its quite amazing that a product is about to be launched and still no one knows for sure whether it will be able to carry out a major function or not.

i went into a HTC specialist store today and the guy who works there told me they had one in for testing recently

and it will definitely NOT support voice

but who knows maybe it will cook dinner though :)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Indeed.

This is not an easy product. The design group in HTC must have gone through lots of debates trying to define how user would use this device. The SHIFTING (punt intended) specifications on phone is just a reflection of this problem, I think.

We can make it fun by just having a poll here. The question polled is:

Do you think the final production model of HTC SHIFT will be able to make phone call without any further modification or tweaks? Yes or no?
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
my Answer to poll = NO
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
my own answer to this poll is NO also.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pantaloonie:
I also vote no - but you probably guessed that ;) (with the exception of Skype calls)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] ice_coffee:
Im going to vote yes, seeing as how HTC like to cram as much into their devices as possible !!
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spzero:
im saying no but it will be cracked i would like to see a full wm5/6 installed (hacked) before making my purchase
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] leoni1980:
my vote is a resounding "no". and i think the odds of installing a fully-functional wm6 onto it are likely to be slim if Snapvue has been integrated purely for routine push email and organiser functionality. I mean, I'd quite like Vista on my Athena but as far as I know this could never happen.

The Shift's officially touted (and highly likely) Vista battery life of "up to" two hours - based on the 2700 mAh battery - is pretty dismal in comparison to other UMPCs already on the market. ok, with snapvue alone you can expect up to 8 hours, but this is poorer than the Athena (with less functionality) and a quick 20 minute vista session on the train could cripple your battery life for the remainder of the day.

I think with the shift HTC have shown their inexperience in the UMPC field - they've taken too long to release it and it seems its only redeeming feature over other UMPCs is the innovative sliding keyboard. many other UMPCs better it in terms of processing power, battery life and screen resolution.

Now as regards cracks and developments for this device: I have little doubt that developers such as Olipro could do wonders with this device, but these developers need to own it in the first place. I could be wrong but I think most of them are more sensible than that and would prefer to continue to try and get the most out of the Athena.

With a life of 8 hours using just Snapvue I can only imagine that phone capabilities would hurt the battery of the Shift even more - could you REALLY afford to leave the house with just a Shift, knowing that just a quick play on vista would mean a recharge before the end of the day?

Perhaps if you carried 3 spare batteries about with you, but for me the risks along with the unjustifiable cost of the device mean I'm sticking with my Athena- by all accounts it'll serve me much better than a Shift EVER could.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] thaihugo:
I think lots of users have waited after the universal and probably didn't jump on the athena ship. This users might get interested on this new kind of device, even if the UMPC part cannot be compared to it's closest competitors. One this is sure: I don't want to buy another UMPC and realise the Shift can do full WM6 afterward. As I'm quite sure I will at least be able to install some programs, even if we don't get wifi or any connectivity, it will still be a great device.

If you compare it directly to an ahtena, or only to a Q1 Ultra, each one will win on it's side. Just remember this is a combined device, and nearly at the price of the athena at it's release time.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] KillyTheBid:
HTC Shift spotted in Central London

Hi, I see that Inkino Ltd (www.inkino.co.uk) has just posted up some photos of the HTC Shift taken at their London Offices. Me thinks we are getting very close to reality. I know that there have been many sightings of the HTC SHift but a lot of them are pre-prods and far from finished knock-ups. When a leading rerailer gets to play with the unit then you know that something is afoot.

I am going to pop into thier Tottenham Court Branch to see if I can have a play. Or at least put my money down for a pre-order.

Will post my findings if I get time.:)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] leoni1980:
The argument against buying another umpc (just in case the shift can be cracked with wm6) is pretty ridiculous, since the alternative is to buy a shift (just in case the shift can be cracked with wm6). The best thing to do right now is wait and see, but it'll be a pretty long wait before we know whether wm6 is a possibility anyway, by which stage a newer, better equipped umpc might be on the market. I really think we're wasting our time with this one: if it were practical to have cellular capabilites in a umpc then surely the two leaders in this field - samsung and sony - would have done so already. They've already integrated hsdpa/sim card capablilty into their devices, and lets face it they're not exactly new in the field of mobile phones!!! I think the major reason ALL of the manufacturer choose to leave out this facility is 1- battery life would be conceded and subsequently the promoted battery life of their device would have to be dropped (and this is one of the primary factors in purchasing such a device. 2 - the general umpc consumer would not be particularly interested in the facility to make phone calls - most networks now offer data only sim cards for reasonable prices, and it's more practical and more sensible to carry a smaller, longer-life handset. 3: the cost to the consumer would increase if the facility to make phone calls was added. Also as a result of this function being integrated customer complaints would inevitably skyrocket since they would deem the battery life unacceptable for the practical application of the handset as a day-to-day phone. Not adding phone capability will save a lot of earache for HTC i think. The reality here is that no matter how adept a developer is he will never be able to make the battery last long enough, so you'll still need a second phone! My advice (if you want a umpc) is save your bloody money, buy a better value one and keep your lovely shiny athena for your push email, sms and phone calls. Unless of course you're a htc maniac and can't bring yourself to buy anything else: in which case try your luck with the shift and hope that enough talented developers buy one to make it (possibly) worth your while.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Very sensible points. It's eerie that you have put out what I was just about to put out in exactly the same way. It is the battery life. It is more practical to have a separate smaller longer lasting phone. It will drive the cost higher to combine them and would invite more complaints. Even if someone hack it to be able to run full wm6, it would be useless because the battery can't power it meaningfully anyway. How could you so accurately articulated those points which are also mine?

I also don't see it possible to replace my Athena with Shift. I hope I'm wrong, but I got the impression that it has no GPS and proper camera (only web camera I think). GPS is too important a feature to go without. Can those of you who had played with the device confirm this point for me please?
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
if Ikiniwo is the shop next to GHS they didn't have one on saturday :(
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] thaihugo:
I see you didn't properly read my argument but you still quoted me as if you where answering. I'll try to take a few minute to explain why you misunderstood my post:
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] thaihugo:
Until now, if you read the manual, you see reference of a GPS that will be accessible on the vista part.

It's also on the HTC global website. I don't know if it will make it to the final version, but the processor on WM side has this capability
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spzero:
Im intrigued how much can or have you hacked are we talking calls or wm6, as for battery originally it was stated 3hours vista 7 days WM6 / snapview why has this changed will they be a bigger battery available or can we run wm6 on own and have vista shut down completely??? :D
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
basically you have you can REALISTICALLY use this device in 2 ways

1. you can use the snap vue/WM6 feature when your out and about, Hopefully it will have a web browser you can use for general internet usgae and checking emails and texts

2. You can use VISTA but ONLY when you have access to a mains power supply, i.e. at a desk, in a house or on a train which has sockets for laptops

There is a 3rd crappy VISTA way but that means carrying about 3 batteries and or never going on a journey more than 2 hours away from a mains power supply
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
I don't get the impression that snapvue allows web surfing, so it means you have to carry lots of spare battery or your charger.

Even so, how about GPS and Camera? Carry another two devices? Or back to still needing Athena?
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] thaihugo:
Basicaly, the OS is there, but with some files and registry removed. As they are still some links we can for example get access by the messaging, by sending exe and running them to get access to the file system.

Later parts need to be investigated, and will certainly need a new rom. But I'm fairly confident that a Kaiser Rom can do some nice stuff here, so basicaly we have this steps:

- Run some prog and start hacking our way to a more or less operating system: easy as the vista part can access the registry and the mail app can launch files and links.

- Get access to some wireless capabilities: depending on the system, we can have easy or harder access to wifi, bluetooth and gps.

-UNUSPL it and get access to bootloader

-Flash a new rom or a linux opie project on it.

I personally don't think HTC left a unit without a bootloader capability.

Snapvue does not have a web browser ATM. It does have an office document viewer. Start button is removed, but some prog where still in rom when I tested it.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pawel062:
if u guys want me on a rom for the shift too i am more than happy to do it. no please guys theres some secrets of the shift we cannot say out of the blue. olipro cannot go say they phone is out of box. he can give u the docs and let u decide on ur own. the sources the athena project has will not allow us to do this. they can let us hint u but we can say YES THERE WILL BE A PHONE OUT OF BOX. remember the device is not final, roms are still being developed. hardware is final. battery, rom, and features are subject to change. snapvue might be a full fledged wm6 with a few tweeks like the touch dual but shift specific like we been previewed. nothing is final. but please so not say the phone will not have a phone out of box bc it just might.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
2 b honest, the more I think about the SHIFT the less I want one.

when it was first announced , I thought great sounds like something i would really want to buy.

but the fact that it was announced about 6 months ago, uses Vista instead of XP the battery life seems pathetic

and no sign of WM6 or GPS or Voice just puts me off the whole thing..

I know the final specs have not been finalised but how bloody crap is that when the device is merely a week or 2 away from release
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pawel062:
trust me when the device actually comes out it will be more than the people here have been told. the project and i have recieved some new info about the device. i cant be specific to what is in and what we have but lets just say olipro was right and u guys will all be suprised.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
pawel02,

Honestly, would YOU carry this battery poor heavy large device around as your ONLY phone?

Does your source says also that it has full camera (not just web or front camera) and GPS?

Would you still want it if you need a separate gps and camera?
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spacecat:
i would cos i hardly use my phone, the Athena is pretty crap for a phone as well and i have only ever made one call on it not using a bluetooth headset. I would just do the same with a SHIFT.

I dont have a car so GPS is not important to me, and i think i have taken about 10 pictures on a mobile fone in my whole life :)

so a SHIFT with voice would be good for me
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] spzero:
htc shift for free!!!

:D

PK Olipro you guys rock and if you crack this to WM6 ill be donating some dough to whichever fund you like

yep orange have anounced will be offering on contract tho may have to pay but sure it will drop in price or if you want one sell your athena... http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/news/2202100/orange-expands-business-line and acc 2 this can BT phone calls out of box http://www.phones2udirect.co.uk/Products/type/phones/ProductID/8497/HTC-Shift.asp
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pawel062:
I actually use the athena as a phone many times a day without bt or anything just with the speakerphone. if im in a public place i turn it down and its no problem. the shift if i were to get one i would use like the athena too. i actually all the features of the athena including the office docs, vga out for presentations, phone part, pda part, gps, use it as primary mp3 player and video player, use it as a camera on a regular basis as its as good as my digital camera after figuring out how to get good pictures from it, and every other feature. the shift i will not get as i dont have the cash for it and i like my athena way too much. about the full camera and gps i didnt as about those. about full wm6 ;)..... and above i see further proof of what we have said about the phone part.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] leoni1980:
Thaihugo - in response to your thorough appraisal of my previous remarks and your distaste at my constant mentioning of the Athena "You are again talking about cell phone. The shift is interesting enough with it's dual system without a phone" may I respectfully remind you of the title of this post? and also of the forum it's in (it starts with an 'A'). The inherent problem with the Shift is that its 'interesting dual system' is impractical when juxtaposed with poor battery life and an inability to apply the device as a handset. whilst its quirks negligibly separate the Shift from other UMPCs on the market, they perhaps don't justify its purchase. maybe we ought to deem the Shift an expensive toy to those who can afford it. It's a snazzy-looking bit of kit and i'd love to play about on one - we're all kids at heart after all, and we clearly all love gadgets too. I sincerely hope that you guys crack the Shift and get what you can out of it. my perspective though is somewhat distorted by my fiance's ability to make me see when im being a bit of a ****. The Athena was pushing the boundaries of taste and practicality. I love it and I won't be getting rid of it but I still shudder at the oft-asked question 'so....can you make calls on that thing then?'. the truth, so I believe, is that the Shift would be a monumentally impractical handset to have on your person. not only is the battery life suicidally unforgiving to the 'business users' at whom UMPCs are predominantly marketed but such an expensive and desirable gadget shouldn't be carried about like a cellphone in my opinion. I respect those who say they rarely use their Athenas for calls and would be happy to use the Shift for such purposes when the need arose. I respect their indignance and their determination: perhaps it is social paranoia on my part; but I mean it when I say that I would GENUINELY feel like a right twat using the Shift as a handset. Perhaps I should stop caring what other people think, but I believe there's some common sense in my reasoning.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] thaihugo:
Well, I understand the post topic and the forum where it reside, but this is the only thread on the whole internet where people are actually talking about the shift and giving facts about what they say. So I guess it has became an international harbour for shift talkers.

I'll not specifically answer to your post this time,as you talk about cell phone and I'm not, so it seems we are not communicating.:D
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Pantaloonie:
This does seem to be true. Here is the 4winmobile.com 'readers digest' version of this thread:

"To save you all the pain (unless you like a MMO abuse session) it looks like out of the box the Shift will NOT be able to make phone calls (skype doesn't count) but will be able to SMS (?) and use GSM/GPRS/UMTS etc data.

The other thing is the guys are pretty certain they will be able to make it do phone calls already with a hack.

Finally, half the posters think Olipro is a genius but arrogant and the other half think he's a nice guy if you get to know him and Olipro himself doesn't really care what anyone thinks.

As you said though, interesting stuff about the Shift."