yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Just misunderstanding then, sorry.

Believe me, I know A LOT about Windows Mobile. While I completely agree with the fact that Windows Mobile converged devices are not designed ideally when it comes to managing processes etc. (exactly those things, that Menneisyys pointed out several times), it is completely irrelevant for our issue. Even if you cleared your Windows Mobile OS from all the **** it is running (impossible) it will not help a little bit resolving the issue.

The fact is that this device

LACKS

the drivers for D3DM and OpenGL ES.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Yep got to agree with you there, but was just clarifying my first post.

Shake hands?? :confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Menneisyys:
1. you don't need to transcode / resize your full-res DivX / Xvid movies - this is a BIG advantage.

2. most (if not all!) other, recent Pocket PC's are able to play these files back
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Cheers for the input, but you quote Pocket Pc's???

Does that include Windows Mobile devices as the Kernal has marked differences..:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Of course. I never meant to be offensive, if that was how you understood it. I am always open for any debate. :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
OK, you got me...:)

Honestly, I DO hope for a resolve to this. I just try to put an objective view to it.

If XDA Dev can put one over on the corporates and come out with a resolve so I can watch 'Forbidden Planet' (OK, sad I know!!) without screen tear when the camera pans... I will love to see their high paid chins, hit the ground and hope all these companies revert to 'It's what you know' not 'Who you know and how much you can rip the customer off"! :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
Not going to happen. Not without getting hold of the HDK/SDK for the Qualcomm chipset. There just isn't enough information available on the low level stuff needed to write a device driver.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
SNIFFF!!!:eek:

Lets, hope............:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] redsrule2500:
so true thats my MAIN GOAL here!!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] curu:
Ok thanx for your answers guys.

I mailed directly LG for the GAPI feature. Sorry for deflecting the topic out of Kaizer.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
Better to live with reality than a false hope. Only HTC can help us here; UNLESS a developer experienced in driver development can obtain the needed HDK/SDK. I doubt that even a reference driver from Qualcomm would help, as HTC are likely to have monkeyed with the chipset to get it to work with the rest of the hardware.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Hmm. I can tell you for definite... NO!

You can't monkey with what you have not got in the first place!!! :rolleyes:

You have to realise...Microsoft do not release all their SW as opensource for commercial reasons..

Chipset suppliers are just the same, releasing all aspects of their devices on a 'Pay-by License' basis to the OEM software driver and then to the Hardware corporation.

IF, and I say IFFFF all these come together, then you have Karma!!!

Why do you think XDA cant get anything from Qualcomm??

The fund for drivers on this forum is probably about a factor of one thousand lower of what the Quallcom requires to sell licences to companies for their HW unit.

Who knows the real truth. ???
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] redsrule2500:
this is bad
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gfxMaven:
Just a thought (and I'm positive people have already considered this): how about contacting Qualcomm directly? They're bound to be more helpful than the peons over at HTC and may even offer some valuable insight/clue/point us in the right direction. I was close to purchasing a Tilt a few days back but got scared away by all this.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
What? HTC have the chipset; it's common practice in the hardware world to modify chipsets purchased in to make it work correctly with the rest of your hardware. Why do you think most desktop video drivers won't work with the laptop version of the same chipset? Because in a lot of case, it's been modified by the OEM.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Yes, the chipset is there, It provides basic WM drivers, it also provides HW acceleration that HTC can quote but not use!! BUT, if the drivers for said acceleration are not provided by Quallcom, WHO'S FAULT IS IT?????

I am not defending HTC here AT ALL!! I think we are all victims of the corporate; Let's pass the buck and charge more' society.

We all want more....and they will sell it to us...LATER!!!! AS USUAL!!!:o
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
That has nothing to do with the chipsets.

The only thing that differs is the .inf, by just editing a few strings you can make any nvidia and ati driver to work with mobile chipsets.

Still the desktop versions and the laptop versions of a graphics chip differ a lot because they're two totally different chips made by nVidia.

The OEM don't modify them though. It's WAY too complex to modify by a simple OEM like HTC, or even for such a large company such as DELL.

They can change many other things on the actual system board but that's a different story.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
Oh I'm not saying HTC aren't at fault. They're the ones responsible for providing us with the drivers, and they've failed in that regard. You can pretty much bet that the chipset WOULD have come with reference drivers and the needed HDK/SDK for HTC to provide to the users. Such deals are pretty standard and would have been included as part of the whole package.

HTC have seen fit not to provide the device with the drivers it needs. I suspect the reason in mainly financial; developing custom drivers isn't a cheap or speedy business. There are likely time factors involved in getting the device out the door as quick as possible, probably before the drivers could be developed. If that's the case, don't expect to EVER see them.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Do you know the difference between open-source and SDK releasing (which you quoted)? I think you are just confusing a lot of people unfamiliar with the subject.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
I think you'd be surprised at just how much OEM's can and do adjust chipsets they've purchased in. In most cases, such as ATI and nVidia boards, the OEMs have learned to not mess with them so much that reference drivers quit working; but that sort of thing DID used to happen quite a lot a few years ago, and it still happens on the non-video display market a fair bit. NIC's are one of the worst culprits for this...

HTC are not a simple OEM btw, and are a FAR different type of company to Dell. HTC design and build phones, and you can bet they have more than sufficient know how to adjust chipsets they buy in to make them work with their hardware; especially when said chipsets come complete with full HDKs.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
No, 'I' am not.

But, I am sure a lot of people out there are TOTALLY confused with who is actually at fault (if at all).

Look, I agree with EVERYONE here that HTC have provided hardware that is not fully implemented!

If you want to REALLY argue, take them to court, YOU WILL LOSE!!!

They have provided HW that does what their supplier says it will at a minimum and the reason they did this was PAL. (Profit and Loss).

Cheapest chipset on the market to fulfill WM6.

That is why I FULLY support this forum's research!!!

BUT!!! I also do not discount other problem within the Qualcomm chipset!! It does more than graphic functions... it handles all our radio comms and basic GUI so lets look at the whole perspective?? :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Are you telling me that they buy the plans for the reference design and then they go off and redesign the chip and send it to a semiconductor company (like TSMC) that makes the new chip for them?

I'm not saying that you are lying here but that sounds like a pretty extreme undertaking, especially with a fairly complex chip such as the MSM7200.

I have no doubt that they heavilly modify the OS, drivers, and especially low level firmware but going from that to redesigning the chip is quite something.

Or are you even implying that they buy the chips and then they start tinkering around in the with a soldering iron? ;) Just kidding. :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Just a quickie (not to be TOO objective...)

Where did I Quote anything about SDK??? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I said we WISHED we had the details... I am sure even the basic person here knows the difference....

So the question really is DO YOU????
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Here:

Believe me, I do. :) I am a full-time developer and Microsoft Certified Professional.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
So with you qualifications you flout,,why aint you sorted this????? (or as the REAL pro's out there realise, you are qualified to move a mouse!!!)

Geeezz, didn't realise me bad quoting someone else got me tied to their perspective...

Better smoke the same stuff as you to get there!!! :o:o:o
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
I have never said I am an MCP for Windows Mobile devices (because I am not). Remember that I still started this thread, so I know a bit about this problem, don't you think?

I have never abused you, so I will not react to this "your way". But you should reconsider writing such things to this forum and this thread especially. You are not being productive in anyway.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Infornography:
I don't mean to interrupt in your penis measuring contest, but both of you, please cut it out. your not helping the situation at all. Let's all point our guns in the right direction. We all need to get on HTC and Qualcomm or make a collective effort.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Excuse me, omikr0n and myself have a long history of heated discussion that we usually resolve (with him winning most of the time!!) but the discussion promotes DISCUSSION!!

I am sure he can defend himself very comfortably without someone else!

Your ball, omikr0n....

Oh, BTW, whatever funds... whatever petetions...If you look at most of the work on this forum is is basically {WAREZ} that is ripped from all SW houses, phone manufaturers or chip developers.

We only cook it or hack it, very rarely grow it!!!

Please notice the WE!!

;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
This time I really agree with Infornography. Our previous discussion is pointless. :)

A bit off topic: I have found the way of overcoming one of the main issues for me - slow scrolling thru programs and overall interface slowness. I installed and begun to use PocketUI Home: http://pocketui.com . With the incoming CorePlayer 1.2 and this I might in the end become a happy TyTN2 user. :)

Hardware accelerated D3DM and OpenGL ES would be nice, though. :(

@Chainfire: Any progress on those drivers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
I don't beleive what you are saying!! This is totally agreeing with the first post you shot me down with regarding other SW slowing the Kaiser!!!

OK, No more pissing up the wall (Infornography, you are definately a female with your reference and I now agree with it!!! I got pissed ON! Smiles)

Never mind.

Driver heaven hope you arrive soon...:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
They don't alter the chipsets themselves no, I didn't exactly say they did. What they DO alter is the BIOS those chipsets use to communicate with the drivers, effectively altering the capabilities of the chipsets to disable some parts, enable others; alter addressing and suchlike.

Such things are needed as the chipsets will have access to different hardware on different ICs. One phone will have totally different hardware to another, but both may use the same video chipset. For that chipset to work with different sets of hardware, the OEM's MUST make changes to the BIOS and having access to the HDK enables them to do so. In most cases, changing the BIOS will mean the reference drivers included in the SDK will no longer function, so the OEM will have to produce their own drivers using the reference source code as a base.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Phew, we're on the same page then.

I was thinking you meant they changed the actual physical chip. ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
Nooooo! Sorry if you misunderstood me! :p
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Not yet. We will return to the regular programming tomorrow! :) Stay tuned. (had a week since back from vacation, had a major data conversion appointment for thursday which required a LOT of prep work, spent the remaining few hours on WMWifiRouter, and I'm pretty dumb from the painkillers to get through this jaw infection - not smart to work on it if you're not sharp).

I'm still not completely through my bag of tricks though, so I might still get it to work :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jonteponte:
ATT: Chainfire

not sure if im right but...

i kinda were in your situation last year, busy programming, to many meetings and way to many people around me who didnt make quality work in their efforts. that made me angry, when im angry im pressing my teeth together hard (not grinding) often for long times(hours) and ended up with an inflamation in the jaw due to that (due to my dentist)...

my advice is take a good vacation and try to relax your jaws when ever possible, pain killers only work for so long...=)

cheers

//jonte
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
I'll keep my fingers crossed. :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dsyro:
I don't think that one would lose taking HTC to court over this.

Break it down to the basics and here's what you get:

A customer who has paid a higher price than normal for a product that underperforms products of "lower range" (in core areas) -while at the same time the manufacturer is advertising specifications that the product does/can not use, i.e. violating rules of fair competition along the way.

Maybe you're right that HTC followed standard business reasoning (slightly short-sighted in my opinion) when it released the phone without appropriate drivers. I'm not contesting that. Maybe Qualcomm's legal restrictions have something to do with it (although I cannot see how). And HTC "had no choice".

My question is this: WHY is it so bloody obvious to YOU that the final customer should carry HTC's or Qualcomm's burdens? Why should he be sold a (let's admit it) crippled and defective product?

If I had the time and money to waste to sue them I definitely would. And believe me, a judge, unlike you, sees (or at least he's supposed to see) the two sides of a transaction and doesn't let corporations off the hook just because they were following standard corporate procedure when they f***** their customers up.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Infornography:
I agree. A class action lawsuit against HTC for failing to provide a feature that they advertised is not a guaranteed loss. It may even provide ammunition that a company did a bait and switch. Furthermore, Verizon was successfully litigated against in regards to their Motorola V710 Bluetooth OBEX Fiasco. Verizon printed in ads that the v710 was capabable for full obex support but lo and behold it was disabled. So don't count out a lawsuit just yet. And the full benefit of a lawsuit isn't just gaining the support we needed, but the recognition of the problem to the mainstream press.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ekw:
If it helps, pocket hack master will soon have qualcomm processor support

gogo overclocking!

http://www.wizcode.com/forums/viewthread/46/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bl4d3:
hi, don't know if it was already discussed here, but futuremark offers SPMark Java 06 and 3DMark Mobile 06 (Link: http://futuremark.com/products/)

the 3DMark Mobile offers support for OpenGL ES 1.0 & 1.1 & 2.0, so you can can check with this application if your driver hack was successful.

could futuremark provide any important informations to our developers here? cause they written some applications for OpenGL ES, so maybe they know something about the drivers or could provide some useful informations that will help a bit.

is there someone that lives in finland? so he can visit the futuremark labs and ask for help :D

Futuremark Oy – Headquarters, Research & Development

Kappelitie 6 B

FI-02200 ESPOO

FINLAND

Tel: +358-20 759 8250

Fax: +358-20 759 8251

i'm really sad :( after i had saw what is possible with OpenGL ES:

Cyber Samurai

Site: Futuremark

Location: Finland

File size: 16MB

File type: WMV

Download!

Proxycon

Site: Futuremark

Location: Finland

File size: 13MB

File type: WMV

Download!

so i wish anyone can bring this on my device :cool:

edit:

take a look at those awesome pictures they have made:

http://futuremark.com/products/3dmarkmobile/3dmarkmobilees20/screenshots/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Menneisyys:
I can give them a call but I don't think it would help much. For example, the SPMark Java 06 runs without hardware 3D support. (the M3G-capable Jblend and Jbed versions and the 11 series of TAO all run on non-3D-equipped hardware too.)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Menneisyys:
Much as some CPU types (for example, the Samsungs) have never been overclockable, let's hope for the best.

(Not that it'll magically fix all problems...)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Hornet331:
hmm i dont know if any HTC device will have a driver for the MSM7200, there are allready 3 devices out there with the same chipset and none of those feature the driver.

Maybe we see a driver from i-mate or toshiba.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Isaygarcia:
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=search&quick=1&mode=0&exp=msm7200

Check in for msm7200 devices and if anyone has one of them plz dump the drivers
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ericc191:
any updates on the hardware acceleration issue?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] forcedalias:
I'm glad people are finally looking into the (possibly) only effective way of getting HTC's attention.

Just a little tired of seeing posters pledge randomly on the bounty thread -- their giving up gives HTC/Qualcomm the impression we're ready to carry their burdens.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Yeah but we do need someone to set it up. We need a lawyery type who knows what he's talking about. Maybe we should set up a fund for that? I'd pledge a $100 towards such a thing. Somebody gotta beat HTC into submission! And if it does end up into a class action suit, we could maybe get that money back from the 'damages'. Though I have no idea about how people from foreign countries can join in on a class action suit (in my country, I don't even think something like a class action suit exists)

Or maybe someone here as a decent lawyer in the family, who you could at least ask what the possibilities are (I don't expect them to work for free, after all, but a lawyer in the family may be inclined to at least look at it and see if it's even possible or worthwile, which would at least be a step forward)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] forcedalias:
Now that sounds likes a fund worth pledging for. I'd also pledge $100 if we start up that fund.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mackaby007:
Finally!! Someone talks sense.

Listen up friends..Chainfire has just hit the nail on the head. HTC know about this petition just as MS knew about our petition regarding allowing XDA devs to host ROMs here. Did that make a difference? NO!

However, as I believe Chainfire has implied, let's put our so called pledges were our mouths are. Set up a paypal account and collect money, not pledges....towards legal expenses to take HTC to court!

This is the 3rd HTC device in a row which was falsely advertised...actually include the incapable HTC Universal too. I felt conned every time, but in most other respects I love their devices, so I take a gamble that this time they are telling the truth. Coreplayer have also followed suit in promising the world and always coming up short. But I wouldn't take them to court over 20 bucks.

HTC however, have made a few thousand out of me alone and I don't mind donating towards the pursuit of justice. Why should they be allowed to get away with deceiving us all the time?

If a lawyer advises us that we have no chance of winning a lawsuit, I'm still sure that a lot of bad, but truthfully bad publicity will seriously affect future sales of HTC products, especially if we mention the network operators who support HTC...i.e. T-Mobile, AT&T, o2,Orange, Sprint etc..No one making money of the public needs bad press...it can bring even the largest of companies to its knees. It wouldn't be the first time in history either.

I'd say boycott HTC, but that would achieve nothing as there are so many more willing to buy as they are not technologically minded enough to know the difference!

Sue them I say. Let's see how quickly they respond once they see that donations are not rolling in, but FLYING in, to sue their arses for every dollar they deceived us for.

For the doubters in here. Believe me this can be done. With the community behind us, we were able to raise a few thousand dollars for development of ROMs. Why can the same not be done for justice and or compensation?

Nuff said. The ball is in the court of the genuinely disappointed. I won't head this project though, as the last one was not long ago and it took me away from my day job and family for 2 months, but I will financially support this if someone will recruit, or others with relevant experience/qualifications offer up their assistance in this matter.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well I'd be happy to run a topic and fund etc, but I doubt it would be very useful if _I_ did that.

We'd need to figure out in which country our chances would be best. I know nothing about UK legal system. The Dutch legal system doesn't allow for 'class action' type suits, so that's out. The US does have the class action thing, but we'd need to figure out if foreigners can join in (I don't really care about the 'damages', as long as HTC comes through) - as that would really add extra weight. Furthermore, would it be possible to sue HTC, T-Mobile, etc all the providers together? Or would it require seperate suits (as the subject is exactly the same, the devices do not perform as advertised) ?

I guess it would probably be best if the person heading this actually knows the lawyer we will use. We need somebody to step up!

Furthermore, we need to attract all the users of other HTC MSM7200 devices as well - right now it's Kaiser, Touch Dual and Touch Cruise, if I'm not mistaken.

Even if we don't win, the bad publicity could really help. Something completely different, I wonder if we really worked at it, if we could get a page detailing the problems for all these devices at the top of google search for any of the devices and models...