yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
You're probably right. My point is that it would be pointless to ask Qualcomm for drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
Just noticed this on the Qualcomm developers site

Developing 3D Applications

This site outlines the steps necessary to create 3D applications and games using QUALCOMM's Q3Dimension solution for Mobile Station Modems (MSM™) in the BREW® environment. Currently there is one 3D graphics API supported:

OpenGL® ES

So perhaps, at the moment not even Qualcomm have reference D3Dm drivers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
This only applies for BREW (which is OpenGL ES based), it says nothing about Windows Mobile.

And you perhaps meant D3Dm NON-reference drivers. Reference drivers are the one provided by Microsoft - they are totally software based and could be used just for reference of what the driver should do.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
here is the opengl es dll's if someone wants to try
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
This is the Hybrid Graphics software implementation of OpenGL es

http://www.hybrid.fi/main/products/devtools.php
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Unfortunately this is not what we are looking for. These are (judging from a quick glance) just implementations of OpenGL ES.

What we need are hardware-specific drivers not just general standard implementations.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
The OpenGL_ES_Extensio.zip is the one from Qualcomm, and implements their hardware acceleration, the second one is a software implementation.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
Reminds me of the good old time of the budding 3d acceleration on PC when you had to install Glide wrappers to use the 3dfx hardware.

In essence it was a "driver" that simply translated glide calls to dx/ogl with very little performance hit.

ps : btw i stumbled on this : http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=297717
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] eska007:
@draxredd

I already tried that a couple of weeks ago, it doesn't work :) too bad.

I really hope htc comes with a solution. It's like having a porsche and just waiting for the wheels to arrive.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bratag:
You tried the thread solution or you tried the drivers posted above?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] eska007:
Both

I tried both solutions. I installed the opengl_es dll and also tried the atifix. No difference whatsoever.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Just out of curiosity. How exactly did you install (and test) OpenGL ES driver?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] vpoet:
Xmoo's profile on that site states he's from the Netherlands, so I've been browsing through NL forums, trying to find some hints. Nothing so far, but other people from the Netherlands have mentioned that the 3D drivers are a large deal there as well as abroad.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
The above reference is from an interview with Christer Högström of HTC Sweden, which has been highlighted already on this forum (http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=352224).

The actual interview can be found here:

http://www.mobil.se/ArticlePages/200712/11/20071211002621_MOB792/20071211002621_MOB792.dbp.asp

Unfortunately, it is all in Swedish (no surprises, I guess!). Using online translation software, I managed to glean the following info:

1. Full Touchflo capability will be included in a future TyTN2 update

2. He agrees that HTC are crap at cameras, but will work on this in future

3. The Touch will receive an update to give it the Touch Dual keyboard, hopefully in Jan

So, it does suggest that there will be some sort of update for the TyTN2, but no indication of what (apart from Touchflo - sorry Christer, but the XDA-devs' finest beat HTC to that prize!), and no indication of when. Having said that, his wording does suggest that Touchflo will be included in an update, rather than forming the bulk of the update - might be promising..

Of course if any Swedish readers out there fancy giving us a proper translation of the relevant bits, that would be welcome!:)

FWIW, I used www.systranbox.com for the translation.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Some gaming competition may help, but already video on the iPhone is WORLDS better. It is quite frankly night and day. The same seems to be true for the Nokia N95. So far, HTC does not seem to be responding.

I think the hardware keyboard and BT/GPS/3G put the Kaiser in class by itself.

My 2 cents says once the iPhone has 3G, GPS, landscape keyboard mode for all apps and an A2DP profile added for bluetooth, and proper lightweight syncing outside iTunes, HTC will be in trouble.

Considering 3rd party apps will begin flowing early next year, and the stage has been set for 3G being added mid 2008, I think it will be a relatively short time before 4 of the 5 (A2DP, Landscape Keyboard, 3G, sync) are reality. Combine that with a possible 16GB of memory and the iPhone will start clearing huge swaths through HTC's market share.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
please go here and ***** about it with the rest of us

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/...expected-to-hurt-htc-in-the-pocket/1#c9492409

merry christmas
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
I'm from Sweden: here's basically what I make out of it.

About full touchflo on tytn II -

Judging by his answer is there's not 100 % certainty if the "update" is a software update to the tytn ii or an "update" in form of a new HTC product alltogether. (I suspect the former but it could actually be the latter as well I'm afraid.)

Busines card scanner -

Countries which didn't recieve a business card scanner in their initial ROM will get one via a HTC update "soon".

Camera -

He mentions the fact that they are aware of the subpar camera on HTC mobiles but leaves no indication on it being software upgradable somehow. He just says they will concentrate on it more in the future.

Future products will include a flash or at least a LED "flash" for an example.

Video Cals from "contacts" -

he states that you should be able to make a video call "somehow" from the contact manager, he just doesn't remember how. ;)

(I've wondered about this myself, seems kinda stupid that you have to dial video call manually?)

He also indicates that there will be no major OS updates (ie no Windows Mobile 6.1)

He doesn't recommend using anything larger than 4 GB memory cards for any current HTC product (not mentioning why though).

So absolutely no word on an update for the HW-acceleration.

An update for touchflo seems likely and an updated businesscard scanner for languages with special letters (ö, ä, å, ü etc.) is promised.

BTW the cube is 3D right? So if we get support for that we might also get support for general HW acceleration "as a bonus" in the same update. Or am I just getting ahead of myself here? :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mikeeey:
no its not really "3d", as in a 3d texture. its just an animation that spins making it look like a cube (and cubes are 3d). its nothing they would add 3d acceleration over.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
And there's no clue sin the BREW Dev kit?

Has anyone tried running a brew game? Personally I can't find any trials for such games so I wouldn't know where to start.

"OpenGL ES APIs directly accessible (BREW+OpenGL ES runs ~30-50% faster than JSR184 M3G)"

I tried searching for BREW but didn't find much around the KAISER forums, but from what I can tell what we need, rather than a driver, is actually support from game vendors and/or operators to deliver BREW games which can take advantage of the hw accel in our phones?

And if they can take advantage of it then emu devs and such can surely also take advantage of it, they just need to program for it?

Sorry if this is off topic or if this aldready has been discussed.

Ahh:

"Developers that want to program games (or indeed any application) in BREW have to first register with Qualcomm, purchase an expensive compiler that's essential for turning a mass of code into a playable game, and also present said code to Qualcomm for testing."

hmm

I really need to read up on this before I start posting... ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
I just want to add to this (as people indeed do not really read up) that this does not unlock all hardware accelleration, but for example BREW does have built in QTV support (which is the only 'official' way to use QTV). If OpenGL ES works through BREW without the 'normal' drivers is a question without an answer. I am in possession of all the BREW tools, BTW, but they are of such tremendous quality that the tools themselves crash at startup or don't install at all, so I can't really try.

Asking game developers to support BREW? That would be idiotic. Wouldn't it be fun if every single phone maker would make their own API's like this? Game developers would never get a game out of the door :) Qualcomm should just support the normal API's used for this stuff, instead of reinventing the wheel but this time making it square.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] shantzg001:
chainfire (and others): Just a few clarifications/opinions from my side:

1) No point in that. Brew is not supported "over" win mobile.

2) It is not the only "official" way. that is all i can say about it.

3) Don't know what you mean by "normal" drivers. But brew also needs drivers. Its not "built in" into brew itself.

4) I don't think you read it properly.

4a)The API's are not properietary. Its the standard Open GL ES API's. You need the compiler and stuff because you need to compile ur program for brew. So, its easy (not very easy but still very much possible and feasible and done) to port programs to brew.

4b) Believe it or not, brew is quite popular (albeit not in the same league as WM or Palm or Symbian) mostly in the "lower standard" smart phones.

5) Don't know whether anyone will get the drivers or not because this depends completely on Microsoft/HTC who might not be so keen on this because Kaiser is doing well as it is and this gives them another reason to promote as a "feature" in new devices that they put out after kaiser and force ppl into upgrading once again (Of Course, if they do so, the drivers from newer deivces will be "back-ported" to kaisers in no-time by the excellent ppl here at xda-devs ;) ).

6) It might be a bit (actually a whole lot) of a problem to port the drivers from LG because the whole BSP is completely different.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] notten:
If this is true:

HTC will get the harshest reviews, and never see money from me again. Not that I won't gladly take the drivers when/if they get (back-)ported. I have firmly decided to never buy HTC again if they drop the ball on the otherwise awesome Kaiser by not pushing for the release of 3D drivers ASAP. There are plenty of other companies out there who I'm sure will make a step in the right direction with 3D accel., and when I must buy my next phone it will only be an HTC if my Kaiser already has 3D drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well that does explain some strange things. How very useful!

Again, how very useful! There was no other documented way I could find to access it. (Ofcourse you could access the DLL's directly like the CorePlayer guys are doing, but how to do this at least is not publicly accessable information)

While I'm sure the OpenGL ES part is a direct interface, BREW is more than OpenGL ES, that still counts as proprietary in my book.

I don't really believe this is the reason there are no drivers. If that were true well then HTC has really gotten their last cent from me - I'm with notten on that one. I don't believe Microsoft has anything to do with it at all either. Besides the Kaiser and other MSM7200 based HTC devices are noticably slower than HTC's older models. I'd hardly call this a sound business strategy.

The way the drivers are linked make it difficult, but I think it's still possible.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jolly roffler:
have you tried dumping the dll's export table? you can dump it using 'dumpbin /export QTV.dll' or whatnot to dump the exported functions. I'm pretty sure the coreplayer guys did something similar, if all they're doing is loading it up and calling whatever routines they need from it.

come to think of it, if q3dimension.dll or whatnot provides some sort of 3d acceleration, it might be possible to write a dummy driver adapter d3dm.dll that simply reroutes calls to it. probably won't lead to anywhere, but it's at least worth a look to see what those dlls are for, considering both htc and qualcomm are refusing to cooperate.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] creiz:
But won't that make it slower? If you're talking about a 'translator', just like MESA in linux(correct me if I'm wrong) then that would take twice as much processing power, or not?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jolly roffler:
You'd be doing an extra function call each time, yeah. You should still see a performance increase though, if you managed to free yourself of software rendering as a result. I mostly meant it as a temporary solution until some real drivers appear.

I'll look into it after I get home from work.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] shantzg001:
Chainfire: My post was not meant to be a flame, so you did not have to go all satirical about it but anyways, no offense taken :).

Thats wasn't meant to be useful for you. It was for undac (had quoted his statement) to tell him that he can't run brew games over his kaiser.

It was not meant to be "useful". I was just correcting the statement that you had put out as a fact that brew is the only official way to get qtv support. Qualcomm has QTV support (as official as brew) for Linux, Windows Mobile and several other platforms.

Now, that is a completely different thing. Qualcomm supports Windows Mobile as well as Brew (which are two completely different platforms providing different features, meant for different customers). Brew as well as WM are both proprietary (in your book as well as all others' books). This is what SDK's are for BUT brew is not meant for hobbyists. This is why I said "different customers". It is more geared towards customers who don't (or can't) take the pains of getting things on their devices right.

I had only mentioned about the OpenGL ES part, because from you earlier statements it felt like that brew has some wrappers around Open GL ES, but then they won't be claiming "Open" GL ES, right?

Moreover, there are more game developers for brew than you might think. Infact, many companies are now porting their brew based games to WM.

Well, even I don't believe in what I said about this. This is just one more reason I can think of, on the same lines as many companies didn't release WM6 upgrades for many of their current gen phones (even though it was free for them) so that they can sell new phones.

Plus, MS has a whole lot to say in this because they are the ones who are going to develop the drivers for the kaiser (not from the business angle, but from technical angle that whether they will be able to do so in time)

Yes, it might be. I just wanted to reiterate that its going to be difficult (or may be, just maybe, impossible?) because the board support package for LG were done by some one else and for kaiser, by someone else. (someone = some company)

Disclaimer: I'm not a pro-Qualcomm or pro-Brew or any such fan boy. Just listed out a few things that I came to know.

Moreover, I do not mean any offence to anyone. The faceless media that these forums are, sometimes words can convey something else than what you mean. So, please take this in a genuine sense of discussion only :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Yes I have done that with the QTV DLL. I haven't tried to do anything with it though - my goal is providing accellerated GDI / DDraw / D3D / OpenGL support, after I either succeed with that or give it up, maybe I'll try getting that to work. But maybe the CorePlayer guys will tell us after v1.2 is released - why do the work twice?

As for Q3Dimension, haven't really looked at that DLL. The GL tests on the KS20 return Q3Dimension as 3D driver and use the OpenGL DLL. D3Dm is just a wrapper for the OpenGL DLL as well. The OpenGL DLL in turn uses the ATI DLL (which does the talking to the hardware). Nowhere in this link does the Q3Dimension DLL appear. But maybe worth looking into nonetheless ;)

@shantzg001 (not going to quote)

The "useful" comments were not directed directly at your comments, but at how Qualcomm has done things. The comment is useful, not 'opening up' to everybody is not. There was no offense or sarcasm (to you) intended. And indeed, WM is also propriety, but the difference is that I can get almost every information I need on it from MSDN, and that is the difference with Qualcomm. Yes QTV is supported on all those platforms, but is there a publicly accessable header for it? I couldn't find one.

As for Microsoft developing the drivers, Qualcomm already has the drivers for MSM7200 on the Windows Mobile. Can't imagine it would hard to get those to work if you have the sources of all the parts.

As for the porting of the drivers... it remains to be seen if it's possible. Maybe it is impossible, but we've come a damned long way, with just a few small (yet important) parts missing.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] shantzg001:
Actually that is the main issue. MS doesnt have all the sources. The 3D part is proprietary info of ATI and the required details/sources/ATI libraries etc are given to only partners. QC obviously gets it because they licensed ATI's IP for 7200 but MS doesn't. So, dunno if there is a plan (or is it done already) to partner with ATI for this.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] creiz:
But what about the 2D acceleration? I mean, speed up on the menus, font drawing, icons, etc? I guess it's related to direct draw, no? if it is, how hard is to write a wrapper around for this?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] robertcekstrom@yahoo.com:
3gp videos work great

I don't know if this has been mentioned or whether it is pertinent:

3gp videos work really well on the Tilt right out of the box.

I tried the demo and eventually purchased conversion software ($20) that is excellent: Acala 3GP Movies Free. http://www.cutedvd.com/html/3gp_movies.html

It converts DivX, XviD, AVI, MPEG, VOB movies to mobile 3GP.

If you set the options to:

Video Quality: Excellent

Frame Size: 176x144

Output 3gp format: 3gp

Split size (MB): 64​

it produces a really high quality video.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RPG0:
"176x144" ?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] SCSweeps:
At least it's smooth playback. Right? :p
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mikeeey:
with only the cost of half the screen size. nooo!

well unless using tcpmp but then itl just stretch it. videos seem to play fine on my kaiser. im just used to making the quality about 350kb/s (no more) 320x240 resolution, and 15fps minimum, and everything seems crisp and smooth. i find no use for a higher resolution on a QVGA device.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Sorry, but video in ANY format with this resolution will play smoothly on TyTN II (or any other device).
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RemE:
Hell, many video formats work fine, I use divx files at 320 x 240 475kbps that play just fine at 30fps with Core and TCPMP set to RAW. The issue here is that with correct drivers MOST ALL display related activities should be improved, fingers crossed for progress here!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] robertcekstrom@yahoo.com:
You are absolutely right.

My interest is end-user. I want to be able to take TV content recorded on my PVR or movies from my DVD library and play them on the Tilt. I want to do this without screwing around with the device.

You can do this on an iPhone or iPod. You do have to convert. No problem, comes with the territory. My PVR software (BeyondTV) will automatically convert to iPhone format anything you tell it to. You don't have to screw with the iPhone.

I just wanted to let people know the same is true for the Tilt.

What I found is a conversion combination on a specific piece of software (reasonably priced) that works.

As to the end user experience on the Tilt: The video is formatted at 176x144. The Windows media player plays it full screen at 320x240 and the quality is EXCELLENT. There is no aparent pixilization, smearing or stuttering.

One thing that I found out is that the media player will not play something from the storage card that is larger than 64Mb. It gives an odd message: "invalid format" (somewhat deceptive).

I hope this helps
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
The point is, that this device should be able to playback a normal TV show DSR rip (350megs for 42 minutes) near realtime (or even realtime), without converting. It doesn't - though maybe it will with the new CorePlayer.

That it can play a 177x134 (or so) file is as impressive as it being able to place phonecalls - and it doesn't even do that well :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] curu:
Hello everybody,

I'm a French user of LG-KS20, which explains my poor english.

I encountered several isssues with applications and especially games (ie: SPB Brain Evolution). The screen doesn't seem to refresh properly except one small little square on the right back of the screen.

Are these issues related to the subject of this thread, missing DirectDraw drivers for this kind of processor ?

Thanx for your help.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Probably not. LG KS20 has known GAPI bug. I've seen it confirmed somewhere, but not sure where.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] curu:
Allright, so is the Kaizer experimenting the same problems too ? If not, is there a way to use GAPI driver working for Kaizer with LG-Ks20 ?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
No, Kaiser's GAPI is working just fine.

I really don't know. Perhaps somebody with better driver knowledge could answer this question.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
I hope they will do that for us too.

Don't blow me out here but I am still not totally convinced that the hardware drivers AREN'T working as they should for video synced from PC media player within WM (any other method is outside specifications for WM by any company MS, HTC, LG or even Quallcom! Playing DVD files direct over WiFi on a QVGA device is like listening to your HiFi over a tin can and wet string!, but that because of the 'multi-role' aspect of the TyTynII, too many background tasks/calls are what are ultimately slowing the video down.

We all know of the HTC Touch screen problem, we have all seen the variation of playback with different ROMS and Today Screen plugins that are active at the time.

Lets keep hoping for light at the end of the tunnel. :o
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Do what? I wrote that Kaiser's GAPI IS working fine.

Nope, they aren't. They have almost nothing to do with the issue we are trying to solve here - lack of any drivers which use hardware acceleration.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
I Know, I quoted your hope for driver experts to let us know!!!

BULL****!!! We don't live in a time irrelevent universe!! You better read more of this forum than driver stuff pal !! Ask (or better READ his articles) Menneisyys has stated for AGES there are still too many timing aspects slowing WM devices down and with the kind input of the previous French guy it also looks as if the LG is a little overblown... If you READ my post instead of jumping in feet first, I said this may have to do with slowing the device down when not used AS SPECIFIED ITFM!!

Soz, factual hypertension bout there...:rolleyes: