yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bl4d3:
what has happend to the idea of making an class action lawsuit?

now i can only read about other stuff here, but now no more word about this is spent by you.

whats happend to the supporters of the class action lawsuit?

at the moment every post here, including myself :(, is about things that were already talked about before. we all spin round and make no headway.

if we stop here, we'll never make progress and people will get uninterested and nothing will ever happen.

so ask yourself, why you still post here instead of get some action?

ervery possible option was already discussed and at the moment there is unfortunately no promising solution.

declare war against HTC and fight for your and our rights!

make an class action lawsuit in a country it's allowed to do so. now.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] XtreMe_G:
dude.......http://www.htcclassaction.org/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dwny:
Thanks .... in a forum, searching is fundamental before posting.

As you can see above XtreMe_G's, people are ready to shoot guns without bullets.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] _Alex_:
I know I'm coming in very late to the party, but I thought I'd make this *MUCH* simpler by tossing the dll into a cab.

Install the cab and it'll soft reset for you, voila you have the new htc_d3dm.dll (formerly known as d3dm_ati.dll). Uninstall (and soft reset manually) and you'll have your original one back. No need to install shareware apps and do file renaming.

I'm going to run some benchmarks on this to see if it makes a real difference. I'll post my results here for all.

edit2: the results are in.

For TCPMP 0.72.rc1 benchmarks, I used test.mp4

Without

With

I would have ran different files at different bitrates to test further, but I don't think its going to show anything different than these results...

Hope this helps!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dodo-dk:
No difference! :-( On Orbit 2
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] radem205:
I think it wouldn't make any difference to the main installation of this phone, isn't it? So installation of your package isn't necessary?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Hornet331:
no changes at all. The test results are within a margin of error of 1-2%.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] session:
Can you tell please me what skin you are using?

I like it very much.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dizzy33:
To me it seems normal to have no difference ... These files or Direct 3D related files. I guess they are D3D drivers. If this is the case, then the software you run needs to be D3D compatible or you will see no difference.

Does anyone know a D3D compatible game for pocket pc ? I don't ...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
just thinking out loud.. perhaps Quake 2 or Hexen 2? Their have around 5-10 fps on Kaiser, could be a good benchmark tool.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
None of these games use D3DM and/or OpenGL ES.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
oh ok

what about quake 3?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
i've noticed that your test apps no longer displays some cryptic error message under the new WM 6.1 roms, the generic microsoft software renderer seems correctly identified.

maybe a combination of WM 6.1 and KS20 dlls could bring something new ?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgmdean:
Cross Posting from http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=366033 since I finally reached the caboose on this thread... :p

A Few things:

1) Please refer to http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447495.aspx for a primer on WM graphics software architecture, since not everyone's a WM developer (including me!) ;)

2) You don't NEED to go messing around with the /Windows directory to try out new D3D or other .dll's. Since none of the registry entries specify an absolute path and the current directory is always checked first (Microsoft DNA shows its ugly self) you can simply put the files in the current directory with the test app. I confirmed this by running omikr0n's most excellent D3DDrivers.exe app in a directory on my microSD card along with the renamed ati D3D dll (plus sys and hidden) It gives the error message and then shows the MS reference software driver if the .dll is deleted and it's re-run. Same is true for the tut04_lights.exe test app. It won't run with the renamed dll in the directory and runs like an arthritic snail hand drawing a slide show without it. (estimated 1 frame per 5 SECONDS!) :) The same should be true for ddi.dll I think, even if another dll by the same name is already loaded for a non-test app.

Hopefully this will avoid the chainfire-patented 30-resets-a-night with future testing of other driver candidates. BTW chainfire: Do you enjoy the pain or are you some kind of superhuman? :D (Dit is net my manier om te zeggen "Dank je wel"!)

3) I think it may be possible to have multiple sets of driver configurations in the registry, so in theory someone should be able to test out the entire LG stack in a sane sandbox manner, hopefully without any nasty device contention issues.

4) It's extremely difficult to correct for all other factors when trying to test a whole system rather than a defined app, so it's quite possible that people really did see some small improvements from the ati dll changes that they made that had nothing to do with enabling hardware acceleration drivers. I call this the "Voodoo Software effect" and it's the bane of any testers life.

5) What's the scoop on the Qualcomm/Broadcom case? The Brew SDK agreement would seem to imply that UTMS MSM7200's are not supported in the US because of the ruling?

James
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
Chainfire, would you be so kind as to zip and upload the ks20 files whose interdependancy you managed to trace ?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] nEuDy:
on LG KS20 the things (ok.. i mean only 2d and d3dm) works..

And second i read, that someone has flashed the full polaris OS on TyTN II and worked (??) :confused:

But anyone have tried to flash a full OS.nb from the LG KS20 phone into our TyTN II???

could this working (in this state i mean only the driver.. it´t right, that i.e. the Bluetooth and something similar won´t work...)

:rolleyes:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
This is only correct when talking about general purpose libraries and generally speaking doesn't work for kernel level drivers (like ddi.dll). A good rule of thumb is, if it talks to hardware directly (without going through another hardware driver), it cannot be done.

If you walk the 'dependancy tree' of the KS20 drivers, you will irrevocably end up with dependencies on several of these kernel level drivers which can not be 'tricked' in this manner.

This is probably what is going on with the ati d3dm dll going around. One thing is 100% certain, it does NOT hardware accelerate. It's simply impossible because the dependancies needed for this cannot be resolved.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
It'll take some time to gather them all up again, I'll see what I can do (I'll be away from my desktop most of the next few days though, so it may be monday before I get them for you... don't hesitate to PM me about this monday if I haven't done so yet)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Yes, I have tried that as well. As expected, it didn't work. The reason why it somewhat works between Polaris and TyTN II is because these phones are almost identical both hardware and software wise. The difference with the KS20 is a lot bigger.

You should've seen the KITL log of that boot... 99% errors and AV's.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] storino03:
Anything new?

--James
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] aksd:
New Toshiba G810 sports the same specs as the Kaiser with the MSM7200 chipset, link:http://www.theunwired.net/?item=mwc...he-new-portege-g810-windows-mobile-smartphone

Maybe if the drivers are included on the G810 it can be used on the Kaiser
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
From the above link:

"as well as support for Bluetooth, WiFi"

Is this a bit of HTC-style word play, or does it actually contain these? HTC have taught me to be very suspicious of product descriptions in future.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgmdean:
Here's hoping the G810 has the drivers and that they're not as mangled as the LG KS20's.

As soon as someone can finagle a ROM dump, Chainfire et al will surely be all over it.

James
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ouminan:
Agreed. I was just walking through the specs on the G810 and they are essentially identical.

I really hope that Toshiba goes out of there way to get drivers working for this chipset and doesn't just toss a duddy video subsystem in along with their WM phone.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] yasmeene:
Someone asked before how is tut4_lights running at ks20 devices. I can confirm, its pretty fast..

I read this thread for three days (lot lot of text..) wishing you the best with your research. I want to start simillar research - importing GAPI dlls from kaiser to ks20, cause tut4_light is nice but its AFAIK the only graphic application that works correctly on my LG :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
Has anyone taken a look at the beta rom for the Sprint Mogul, my friend in class has it on his mogul and his screen seems to redraw and react about 10 times quicker then my kaiser that in on the L26 wm6.1 ROM. Of course, I dont have dead evidence of this since I do not have any benchmark software with me, but putting my Tilt next to his Mogul, I see a major difference.

BTW, its RUU_TITAN_SPRINT_WWE_3[1].16.651.0_435009_RS3_27_00_SPCS_NV124
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
This could perhaps get us somewhere.

Chainfire (or anybody else competent), could you have a look if Mogul includes the drivers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
Ya, he sits next to me in class, where would I begin to look?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] saajan01:
not only toshiba G810 this imate 9502 would be very good to looking into it.. before it was Rumors that is was going out of business.. but no no it was wrong... check this out guys.. http://msmobiles.com/news.php/7102.html and also the specs are...

http://www.theunwired.net/index.php...s-the-ultimate-9502-windows-mobile-smartphone

thank you guys...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
I dumped the rom , d3dm.dll , ddraw.dll have the same filesize as our kaiser.

ddi.dll is different.

Dont know what other files should be compared so let me know.

What surprises me is that theres no qtv.dll , and no qtv_mp4_decoder.dll

But no idea if the MSM7500 chipset even uses that dll. since its not the same chipset as the kaiser.

And theres no lib_GLES.dll.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] aksd:
Can you post those files here? So that some of the memebrs can test it on the TyTn2?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
Bad idea , will probably result in a hard reset.

Better idea is to find someone with that rom to test an opengl app to start with.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
My friend has Sprint Mogul, which I constantly update and maintain for her (she's not techy at all and trusts me to to keep all her tech stuff running).

Unfortunatelly she leaves tomorrow for 3 weeks and takes her PPC with her. Wheh I was updating it - I didn't see any difference in drawing/scrolling when I was playing with it. Don't remember about camera - I think it was the same as Kaiser's.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
well, like I have previously stated before, I maintain my friends mogul and I go to school with him from M-F 8am-2:20pm Eastern Time, so I can run the tests if need be, I just need to know what to put on it and what not.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
I tried the ddi.dll from that rom , and ofcource it doesnt boot anymore.

No problem since i made a backup.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I believe that's actually a good sign - that means they are different and hopefully we can use that to improve our Kaiser.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Chainfire!

Tell masterdude656 what to look for in a Mogul.. :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
I was talking more of the openGL program lol.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
Maybe , Maybe not.

Maybe its because its for the msm7500 chipset , who knows.

Maybe the dll needs other files , if i only knew which ones.

I dont mind to try tho.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1621811&postcount=13
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I'd suggest attaching the dlls you have from Mogul to the post.. and start poking around replacing dlls.. if you're willing to do a hard-reset though.. something good might come out of it =)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
ok, let me run it real quick on his phone.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
I dumped the complete rom 3088 files, so thats a no go.

And besides , first someone should test the opengl app on a sprint mogul to see if its working or not.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
well, it ran, just not exactly the most elegant thing I have ever seen in my life.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
Now that does mean something.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Details on the elegancy please :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] masterdude656:
Ok, well, Im a starting noob, so try to go along with me here lol. It opened up, promped with like 2 windows, and took about 5 seconds or so to open, when it opened, the frames were between 0-2, and sometimes did not refresh the full frame :(, im not to sure if this is a good or bad sign though. On a brighter note, it did open at least I soppose, right?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RacerII:
Well forgive me , it also runs on my kaiser.

But in software rendering mode , so its really slow.

I thought it wasnt supposed to run on a kaiser , but it just doesnt run in opengl.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
How did you get access to the KITL? Did you get a kernel debugger online to see the DEBUGMSG()s when you load any random ks20 .dll in usermode? I've disassembled enough to know what reg entries some of the stuff looks up, although to do more I need a kernel debugger but that requires a special kernel os.nb no?

It's funny that the Kaiser DisplayInit() is a no-op (mov r0, #1; bx lr) whereas the ks20 DisplayInit() does a lot of setup that involves ahi.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] yasmeene:
Take a look at this LG KS20 service manual - http://rapidshare.de/files/38526183/EN_KS20_SVC_ENG_1123_1.0_.pdf.html

I dont know if this can help in any way, but it provides some interesting info about qualcomm chipset..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Thanks. Interesting to see that the MSM7200 in the KS20 doesn't look any different from the one in the Kaiser (ie. NO EXTERNAL ATI chip for you serial doubters).

However, it's a hardware service manual, and I'm looking more for help on how to get kernel debug messages out of the Kaiser.

Right now, seems there's something wrong with all the dlls from the KS20 dump because I can't even do a simple LoadLibrary() on any of them (error 193) even with dependencies resolved.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] draxredd:
I may be totally confused, but as i've gathered from a few of those thread we might be overlooking something else : the radio rom.

we all know the so-called "radio rom" is in fact a linux microkernel running on the secondary arm core of the msm7200 chipset. it's function is to provide an hardware abstraction layer to WM.

It's assumed this only concerns the modem/radio part but what if it provides much more than this ? mainly access to all hardware (it DOES have an influence on gps performance, for example) graphics acceleration included ?

If so, fumbling through WM dlls is useless if the radio rom doesn't implement the correct remote hooks...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Nothing wrong with finding what those remote hooks are. It's already suspicious that it's a locally hooked dll still.

In fact, I can probably find them easily since I've followed the code almost that far. There's some DeviceIoControl() calls that access some hardware directly, there's some other calls that hit the MSM hardware registers directly also (clk_regime_* calls).

However, Imageon is actually internal to the 7200 whereas the radio chip is actually another chip (managed by the ARM9/Linux part), so there's still value in exploring those calls.

At worse case, one could try to reverse-engineer a driver from the KS20 ones, but there's so many unknowns to solve in doing that, and way too much code to go through.

So, if the possibility that these dlls are hard-coded for certain memory locations, might have to explore this with Platform Builder next.

For the curious, look at what HTC's htc_d3dm.dll does as part of: D3DM_Initialize (the only call this thing exports)

.text:1000F1CC STMFD SP!, {R4-R6,LR}

.text:1000F1D0 MOV R6, R0

.text:1000F1D4 LDR R4, =unk_10017090

.text:1000F1D8 LDR R0, [R4,#8]

.text:1000F1DC BL sub_1000F430

.text:1000F1E0 LDR R0, =aWindowsDefault (\Windows\default_d3dm.dll)

.text:1000F1E4 BL LoadLibraryW

.text:1000F1E8 MOVS R5, R0

.text:1000F1EC BNE loc_1000F200

.text:1000F1F0 BL GetLastError

.text:1000F1F4 MOV R1, R0

.text:1000F1F8 LDR R0, =aD3dm_initial_1 (D3DM_Initialize: load default_d3dm.dll failed, %d)

.text:1000F1FC BL NKDbgPrintfW

It does a LoadLibrary() on the \Windows\default_d3dm.dll - the reference (meaning unoptimized) driver from Microsoft.

Of course, it would be nice to see the NKDbgPrintfW()s on some console instead of being entirely hidden.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] qumran:
This is from http://www.htcclassaction.org/responses.php#update_20080214_2

Breaking News!

"New driver end of March"

A response from Peter Chou himself (CEO of HTC) has surfaced saying they hope to release a driver at the end of March. Examination of the e-mail and its SMTP headers verifies with very high certainty that this e-mail indeed originated at HTC Taiwan. Ofcourse we have also written our own e-mail to Peter Chou to ask for confirmation.

So, this certainly seems to be legit. Ofcoure the question remains wether it's ultimately true - we certainly hope so!.

If you look at this together with the WMExperts Insider Q+A article, this could even mean that HTC is doing completely the opposite of what most people think: instead of leaving us hanging they are actually going the extra mile!

This may be what we've all been hoping for!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dperren:
If that email does turn out to be legitimate (unfortunately the origins of emails are trivially easy to spoof), then this is fantastic news, and does demonstrate that HTC do actually give a ****.

It does raise various questions however; namely why HTC publicly caved, falling back to a position contarty to on earlier held, after the wave of negative publicity had passed, as opposed to during it. Not good PR...

I desperately hope that this is true.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] sever890:
:D:D we can only pray:D:D if it's true i'll very happy
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] sever890:
ops there is a problem, i haven't a good english, but i read here http://www.htcclassaction.org/responses.php#update_20080214_2

that this isn't the first time that they said:yes we'll fix, we'll fix. and after they didn't do anything:mad:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] TheEngineer:
Corporations

HTC is a global outfit with typical corporate morals.

Corporate morals having been long standardized by corporate america, which is not a good thing, don't expect any honesty.

Perhaps Peter spoke in earnesty, but there are powers within a corp that can stop him from using up resources to accomplish this.

For those who are old enough to have owned the very first PocketPC and Palm devices, threads such as this is a legacy. We have seen it time and time again.

Corporations have been promising to fix problems they knew existed long before the first complaint came in long before the Tilt/tytn even existed.

Why promise? It helps confuse the consumers. The corporations want the units sold off the store shelves and warehouses emptied. Its called counter information.

Best thing to do? Return your Qualcom 7200 based phones if you just bought them. Discourage others from buying any of these phones.

Only after we actually see a fix, should we return to the stores to buy these Qualcom devices.

We dont know how this mess got started. Perhaps there was a disagreement as to who should develope the software, Qualcom or OEMs or retailers. Traditionally the chip developers should have had the drivers or sdks ready.

But HTC is not in the clear. No OEM should have released phones based on the 7200.

As for me personally, I shall not buy any Qualcomm based phones/pdas for a long time. I've seen ill practices like this before. They (corps) rarely ever come through.

As for trying to hack this and that... I am tired of that stuff now.

I have a box full of electronics I have spent a good part of my life trying to hack. Looking back I realize that time could have been better used.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] TheEngineer:
Corporations

PS

Any chance the mtube can become a phone?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] TheEngineer:
One last thing... expect to see more behavior such as this from high tech companies as the real brains of the companies are all being replaced by the accountants and marketing people. These people lack vision and motivation to bring the best in technology. Their main concern is profit and their understanding of math and science is that of a elemenary student.

So where are the brains ending up?

In the basement, in front of test tubes and CADs slaving away.

Natural order?

After all most of these execs are average intelligence, alpha males with a rogue mentality while the brains tend to be the sensitive intellectuals who would rather read a book, play a video game or day dream then fight.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Subversive Asset 2.0:
wut @ attack on accountants and marketing.

The clear fact is that you have to do things that are profitable. However, as an accounting student, I don't see how bad business practices and false advertising (even if it legally might fit under puffery) helps the bottom line in the long run. People have more support for an ethical company that cares about its customers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Menneisyys:
Guys, anyone interested in some *serious* cooperation with a far-east ODM?

At MWC, I've spoken to an ODM, whose name I won't mention here (before everything is settled, at least). They presented a working prototype of their Qualcomm-based handheld they try to sell to OEM's. They stated they're also working on the 3D drivers (programming them themselves) and also said that they would be ready with everything, incl. the driver, before June.

Is there anyone that would be interested in some serious cooperation? It would most probably be under NDA, but, at least, would make sure we would actually have a working driver by June.

So, please list your nicks that would be interested in this kind of stuff and also know (at least some) programming. We'll continue privately with the negotiations.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bl4d3:
today an it-news site reports about the driver issues and tells about upcoming htc drivers:

news (translated)

think their source of information is HTCClassAction.org. if more people can read about it on such news sites, the better it will be for all customers.

keep the pressure up @ htc till the driver is online ;)