yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[LG V10 General] JCred:
Your argument attacks the merits 32-bits vs 16, but is ignorant of the bigger picture: fidelity of a solid, dedicated DAC paired with an equally solid amp > Qualcomm SoC with LPA (or not).

It also allows portable audio enthusiasts to drive some of their higher resistance cans that would be insulted by any other handsets 3.5mm output. My portable amps and combo amp/DACs don't means the house anymore because this phone can cleanly drive the majority of my good cans to bring comfortable listening levels. If there are people endorsing this handset's 3.5mm for use with Beyer/770's/250ohm, the "gimmick" is one that works.

---------- Post added at 06:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 AM ----------

I've posted this solution elsewhere, but revert to awesome player in developer settings and suddenly the DAC becomes far less discriminatory, without requiring any additional workarounds (e.g. it consistently works with Google Music and Pandora, local or streaming).
[LG V10 General] ph3nom:
wondering how do you download Tidal? when i tried it is said not compatible with LG H961N
[LG V10 General] kms108:
Some apps are limited to certain countries, you can try side uploading the apk.
[LG V10 General] king conan:
Actually I quote the people from head fi forum. My lg v10 from HK will arrive tomorrow...

And most of that people has the American version. If it's not possible to download to the Asia version try to search the apk.
[LG V10 General] moSess:
Shuttle+

Shuttle+ is on sale for $1.50

I've used PowerAmp for years. One fifty doesn't make me too upset I can't use it
[LG V10 General] kendonsh:
It seems to work when I use pandroa
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
I was able to tell Neutron was resampling to 48kHz and LG player was not resampling at all by ear just by listening to some 24/96 Led Zeppelin. Then I proved it after the fact by testing it. Only proved it after the fact, heard it by ear before through some cheap earbuds. The only reason I tested was because I could hear it.

What about ringing created by using very steep filtering required to sample at 44.1 kHz? Sampling at 96kHz (or greater) allows for the use of more gentle filtering and offers greater, more natural sound quality.

Or how about the fact that the ESS DAC completely eliminates jitter. As an audio engineer you should know all about jitter and the negative effect it has on sound quality.

If you don't hear any improvement over CD then please leave it at that. Stop trying to convince people that 16/44.1 is the end all be all of digital sound quality. It's arguments like that which hold back the future of high definition audio.
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
MX player working with DAC using it as music player (settings->audio->audio player) playing local files using HW decoder. Does not work with DAC using SW decoder.
[LG V10 General] br0adband:
... will never be anything like the real thing heard live. ;)
[LG V10 General] Nitemare3219:
Using the cat game trick, my HiFi DAC only remains enabled for 1 song on Google Play music from what it seems. Whenever the music stops (pause, next track, replay, etc.), it silently reverts back. The difference is immediate once I open back up the cat game.

All my songs are locally stored too, so I don't know how some of you are saying just having them stored locally forced the DAC to be used. This was the case before and after the reset I did a few weeks ago.
[LG V10 General] tersagun:
Guys, I've tested Shuttle+ with an Opeth Flac but cannot really tell if it's placebo effect or not. I'm not really a expert with audio and so consider me as a "music newbie". Enabling the DAC increases the gain for sure but maybe it's just a higher volume, do you really think it makes a difference?

I'm testing with the Quadbeat headphones and Bose QC25.

And one more note; is it just me or Quadbeat has very annoying "low-band" quality (low-band = the opposite of bass, don't know the term).
[LG V10 General] Tommycoon:
I think you should read this up:

people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

And here is a video from the same guy:

xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
[LG V10 General] br0adband:
I think you missed the point where I posted the same link earlier in this thread to point out that most all of these excessive bitrate and sampling rate hacks aren't actually improving the quality of sound overall.

You're preaching to choir, son, pay attention. :D
[LG V10 General] Tommycoon:
Oh, sorry clicked on the wrong comment. :silly:

And you are right i missed the point; I just flew over the threard :D
[LG V10 General] TotallyAnxious:
If you disable "Enable Gapless playback" on gone mad player it works with the DAC. So it's probably the same setting that's causing issues with other players.
[LG V10 General] stupc:
Whoa, that's great news, if true! Will test some of the apps in the list and report back!
[LG V10 General] blestsol:
Tidal streaming works.
[LG V10 General] ph3nom:
i just wish i can use Tidal as it is not supported in my country.. which is all music streaming service not supported...
[LG V10 General] ljg600:
It's amazing with Tidal.. It's worth getting a trial subscription and checking it out...
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
The extended bits/sampling capabilities are 95% gimmick. Any nuances you associate with higher sampling rates can only be detected as some sort of side tone or resonance in the audible range. Even if the limited range of the lower sampling rate filters out the inaudible source of a particular nuance, the audible artifact of the nuance should still be in encoded into the stream. It's possible to perceive audible undertones from a higher frequency source, but all that's necessary is to encode the undertone directly into the mix and you wouldn't know the difference. This is all well known to the engineers who mix the media, and the reason they work with higher sample rates is to ensure that all of those original signals are available when they create your mix.

That said, into my early twenties I could hear dog whistles, and I wonder if 22KHz is a little too low for younger listeners. But I also know the mechanism responsible for hearing that high was incredibly fragile. If you could perceive a 200Hz beat from two signals over 20KHz, frankly I'd be doing your hearing a favor to just encode the beat and leave out the sources.

Anyway, where do you propose to get the filtered data from? Upscaling can't put back something that was filtered out. I guess you can buy formats that go higher now, but I've got dozens and dozens of CDs that are all 16-bit/44KHz on the label, with a lot of those being upscaled already from older analog masters.

Using the LG player, the ESS DAC does not sound better than the software processing built into Poweramp, which still has the best equalizer I've tried. After listening for a while I decided they're closer than I realized. And it could be that other players can do more with the DAC to surpass what I'm getting from Poweramp. If the DAC does anything, it does seem to have more power for headsets that can use it, which somebody here had already noted.
[LG V10 General] melorib:
Any one tested Meridian Player :confused:
[LG V10 General] kms108:
I've tested the LG music flow player, DAC seems to work, not sure if it's the same as the stock, but it has different layout and features
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
Are you deaf? If you don't think LG Player, or any of the players known to work with ESS DAC doesn't sound better than Poweramp, which does not work with DAC then perhaps you have purchased the wrong phone.

Everyone needs to stop shooting down hi-res. We don't care. If you don't think hi-res doesn't sound better than standard definition then keep it to yourself. This is not the place for these types of arguments. This thread is for people enjoying the ESS DAC and are looking for players that work with it. Stop trying to s**t on our parade.
[LG V10 General] blestsol:
There's a forum for this right here. Hifi audio forums. Where they're saying they notice a difference. I would like to see you drop this opinion in there lol
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
Just found out this phone can play DSD files. Wow, LG wasn't messing around here. A DAC that can play DSD without converting to PCM is a very nice DAC indeed. Working with Sony DSF files, DSDIFF did not work. Have only checked DSD64 files, haven't yet had a chance to test DSD128 files as I don't have any. Tested on LG stock player and PlayerPro. Probably works on all players working with DAC.
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
I don't feel nearly as strongly about it as you seem to think I do. In fact, I came out and admitted that I myself could once hear solidly outside the "normal" human range of hearing.

What I said is that it's mostly a gimmick because any audible byproduct of higher frequency sounds could be encoded into the audible range directly.

And I have no problem going on an HD audio forum and asking people where they think an upscaling DAC is going to look to find sounds that were filtered out during mixing. That's just math.

The problem is that different sources sound different, and it's possible to subjectively or even arbitrarily decide that one source is better than another. That doesn't mean you're hearing anything hypersonic. By definition, you cannot.

And I also admitted the DAC can drive better headsets. But it is only what it is, and it ain't magic.
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
Ok first off the DAC is not driving the headsets better, it's the ESS 9602C headphone amplifier doing that. Second just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it's not having an effect. The sounds we can't hear have effect on the ones we can. That's why it is important they are there. This is how real sound exists in nature.
[LG V10 General] melorib:
I have been an audiophile for ages, "if you have to explain, they wont understand", like with Harley-Davidson :rolleyes:
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
That is why it is important that the *effect* is there. If 44.1KHz can encode the effect, then you do not need the source. I have said this.

Additionally, often these effects are digitizing artifacts that would not be present in a live performance anyway. Do you want a recording with artifacts that prove it came from a high sampling rate, or do you want a recording that faithfully reproduces the original sound? More importantly, can you tell the difference? I suspect there are audiophiles who confuse the presence of certain artifacts with quality. If you associate an effect with high sampling rates you might start to think it's desirable even though it isn't.

---------- Post added at 03:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 AM ----------

Doing some research on what it would take to get Poweramp working with the ESS DAC, I'm bumping into people who are surprised by how good Poweramp is on the V10 compared to other players that use the DAC. Have you actually tried it?
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
Yes I have listened. it's worse than Neutron, which is better than Poweramp on this phone. Neutron does also not work on this phone which makes it worse than LG stock player.

In this order, LG stock player, Neutron, then Poweramp last.

---------- Post added at 04:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------

You are 100% right. Not sure why I even try,

---------- Post added at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 AM ----------

I have proven it to my ears. I never listen to the so-called experts. I try for myself. I have tested 24-bit + for myself. I have tested 96kHz sampling rate + for myself. What I have found is these so-called experts are wrong. It seems they don't listen, instead just quote science.
[LG V10 General] stupc:
So, what music player is everyone using to get the best sound?

Personally, I've found Blackplayer EX offers the best balance of sound and interface.
[LG V10 General] Visa Declined:
Besides people getting snippy with one another, this has been a pretty informative thread. I purchased(and refunded) every single player in the "works with DAC" list, but none of them could touch Poweramp.

I really don't care if Poweramp is using the DAC or not, it flat out smokes the other players in audio quality.
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
I'm finding that Neutron beats Poweramp. Noticeably. Both are significantly better than the LG player with the DAC turned off.

More importantly, the LG player is only competitive when using the DAC. On Bluetooth it seems to come across with a lot less gain than Neutron and Poweramp (I realize this doesn't necessarily mean the quality is not as good to the discriminating ear). And if course the phone's DACs aren't used on BT.

The real problem is in wired mode, which does use the V10's DACs. When you go through the headphone jack, the LG player seems muddy unless it goes through the ESS DAC, while the other players are strong and bright in the headphone jack even though they don't use it.
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
Yet in this very thread you were both convinced Neutron used the DAC, and that it was also the best player here. You seemed quite sure of it until you actually piped the output into Audacity, in fact. At some point you went on to suspect the DAC is still involved but somehow filtering the unsupported players.

I agree with your ears that Neutron is excellent here. I'm running it through a Zik, and whether it's wired or Bluetooth it's the best sound I've ever heard from a portable. It makes me think I've been doing this all wrong for years. I want to believe the DAC is better, but the LG player is so limited in EQ and effects that (like you originally thought) I'm currently getting more enjoyment out of Neutron.

I'm not trying to be combative, BTW. I really appreciate your analysis here. We don't understand this thing. Short of LG coming out and telling us how to use it, you're our best bet for figuring it out. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

What symbol do you get in the status bar for the new earbuds? Did you see the same symbol with the Samsung OEMs? I'm seeing two different symbols (I imagine the phone is sensing impedence). I suspect this dependency on specific cans comes down to whether they're detected as an aux or as a headset.
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
I do hear a difference in Neutron with DAC on/off, but not as much a difference as with players working with the DAC. The difference in Neutron is much more subtle. In my opinion Neutron is the best player with any music sampled at 48kHz or less and using cat game trick. The best can be very subjective though. I think LG player (and other players working with DAC) are the best with any music higher than 48kHz sample rate. However one may think that the advanced EQ in Neutron or Poweramp is the best even though everything is getting resampled to 48kHz with those players.

I detected a difference by ear between Neutron and LG Player listening to some 24-bit/96kHz Led Zeppelin. Then I ran the tests after. I actually only did those tests to prove to the developer of Neutron than his player was resampling to 48kHz where the LG Player was not. He did not believe me at first until I showed him those scans. I was trying to help him build a version of Neutron that worked with DAC by testing with my phone and sending him the results. Unfortunately he was unable to fix it and we all may have to wait for Android Marshmallow rolls out until we see a working version.

I only get one symbol when plugging anything into headphone jack. The Hi-Fi symbol.
[LG V10 General] Visa Declined:
Pulsar Music Player Pro works with the DAC: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rhmsoft.pulsar.pro

*edit*

Equalizer Music Player Booster works with the DAC as well, and actually sounds pretty amazing. It's free to use with ads with the ability to unlock and get rid of them: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.djit.equalizerplusforandroidfree
[LG V10 General] ljg600:
For what it's worth, streaming Tidal Premium 320kbs on the LGv10 sounds sounds better than Google Play, with the later set at high quality. Greater dynamic range, clarity and loudness make for a much better listening experience.

I tried the Tidal FLAC versus 320kbs test, and I could consistently hear the difference 5/5. However I judged the 320kps as very slightly better :) What this tells me is that regardless, my listening enjoyment on my current equipment is unaffected between the two formats. For the moment I am assuming the ESS DAC is responsible for the Google Play versus Tidal difference.
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
Turn off the DAC and see what symbols you get. The phone is either detecting the number of contacts on the plug or it is measuring impedence. You will see either the headset symbol or an aux input symbol. You say you see different behavior from the DAC between two sets of earbuds -- perhaps this is based on the same distinction that determines which symbol is displayed. If your two earsets show different symbols with the DAC off that could be a clue.

My Sony earbuds give the headset symbol, while my Bose QC2s give the aux symbol. I don't have the ear to tell if the DAC treats them differently.

---------- Post added at 08:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------

Did he explain why it works this way, or why it can't be fixed?
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
Never actually noticed that because I always have DAC turned on. I get a headphone symbol with my new headphones and my old Samsung ones. Aux symbol when plugging into my laptop.

The developer of Neutron claims Android M is much more audio friendly and one can set the sample rate you choose. So we will have to wait and see if that's true.

I probably won't be able to find out since I will hold off upgrading to Marshmallow because I'm waiting for root.

I'm having my doubt that Neutron will ever work with DAC though. Seems to me all the players that work with DAC have one thing in common. They all don't use DSP. In the case of PlayerPro if you install DSP then it behaves just like Neutron and resamples to 48kHz. I try to tell him this but I'm not sure he is listening. Looks like he is done trying to fix until Android M comes out. He made a dev version for me to test that did not work and when I told him it didn't work he in so many words says he's waiting for M.

Neutron relies heavily on DSP so I'm thinking the day that Neutron works with DAC may never come.
[LG V10 General] tersagun:
BTW poweramp is on a flash sale. Grab it while you can if you don't already have it. It's less then 1$ for my region.

BTW, I do have a question for the audio experts. Does our DAC only have a trick if we have a 32bit data? I mean, as long as our data is 320kbps and 16 bit, can we say that it absolutely is useless or it will make a difference nevertheless?

Theoretically at least. Not that I'm an audiophile with some extra ordinary headset.
[LG V10 General] melorib:
The DAC job is to fill the blanks between the digital bits, I would say the less bits the recording has, the more difficult it is, so a better one makes even more difference...
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
You're probably on to something. These guys don't write the DSPs. They're probably all open sourced from the same GPL codebase, though it's possible they're paying for it as a library. Find the guys who maintain that, and you may get it fixed. Codecs are supposed to decode everything to PCM, I imagine the idea behind DSP is to just slip it inline between the codec and the DAC so it can enhance the PCM and feed it transparently to the DAC. Maybe this DSP is doing something additional to alter or protect the output?

If you know the Neutron developer, ask him where his DSP came from.
[LG V10 General] stupc:
Following on from this, I tried my favourite music player, N7 Player, but disabled the 10-band equaliser...

Abracadabra! N7 works with the DAC! :D
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
I'm reading some stuff that DSP products can play various formats. That means the DSP assumes the role of codec when used.

Also, Snapdragons include embedded DSP circuitry available for media. I don't know when this started, but it goes back at least as far as the 800. If any player DSP uses that hardware, do not be surprised if the output is hardwired to go to the Snapdragon DAC. That might explain the whole thing.

Not sure how DSP works on an Exynos, but some of the DSP solutions I'm seeing online are ARM specific, and Exynos is still ARM.
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
I don't really know him. I just sent him an email about Neutron and the ESS DAC and had to prove to him with those spectral scans that Neutron was resampling to 48kHz and other players were not. He made a dev version for me to test. It didn't work and now I think he is done trying until Android M rolls out. I wish he could hear this phone so he knew what he was missing.

In my last email I mentioned to him about PlayerPro and how it works with DAC, not resampling to 48kHz then stops working with the DAC with DSP enabled. I also told him about cat game trick and how it makes Neutron work with the DAC, albeit still resampling to 48kHz. So I have given him some valuable information. The ball is in his court now. Maybe if other people got on his case he may then listen.

Neutron relies heavily on DSP. The 32-bit/64-bit processing, dither, gapless playback, eq, replay gain, preamp, etc. A version of Neutron without DSP would not be the Neutron we know and would take away everything that is (or was) great about it. Unless he is able to do something on Android M, as he thinks he might be able to, I don't see Neutron working with DAC fully.

If you don't care about resampling issue Neutron works just fine with cat game trick. I however do care. I could tell instantly by ear that Neutron was resampling. Proved it afterwards with spectral scans.

I'm totally into DSD now that I found out ESS DAC can play it without PCM conversion. I never heard true DSD before and I am truly blown away by it's quality. Neutron can't play DSD. It will play the DSF files but it converts it to PCM 352.8kHz DXD, then resamples that to 48kHz. Sounds horrible compared to true DSD. So I think I'm pretty much done with Neutron, no longer to sound quality king to my ears.
[LG V10 General] cpurick:
I reached the authors of Neutron's DSP, and they tell me it is a straight software solution. So it's not using the SOC DSP. Which means that must not be the reason we are binding to the SOC DAC.
[LG V10 General] CyanJustice:
I'll probably just wait until V4A is ported over.
[LG V10 General] tersagun:
BTW guys, what would you suggest for spotify equaliser replacement?

LG continues to have no support for spotify in app equaliser.

LG-H960 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi
[LG V10 General] beavis5706:
I don't know much about DSP so I can't really comment on the type of DSP Neutron uses.

I base what I know on observations. With the exception of 32-bit/64-bit processing the DSP for PlayerPro is essentially identical to Neutron DSP functions.

Installing the DSP pack in PlayerPro causes it to resample to 48kHz and causes it to stop working with DAC, just like Neutron behaves.

What I do know is an advanced player like Neutron cannot do what a simpler player like LG player or PlayerPro can, like not resampling everything to 48kHz or play DSD.

Seems to me all these "simple" players are outputting bit perfect to the ESS DAC. Any time any type of DSP is used the data is no longer bit perfect and the data stream gets sent to Snapdragon DAC instead, causing 48kHz resampling and non functioning ESS DAC.
[LG V10 General] zoulinio:
Hello i see in your signature that you have the european version of V10 H960.....

I am really interesting of this buying this one...

From where did you get this and in what price????

Sorry for off topic Question....

Thanks in advance
[LG V10 General] tersagun:
Hello but you don't want to ask me. I'm from Turkey and the official price is around 900$ while note 5 is around 850$. You can buy it for a little bit cheaper from some stores.

But I've paid 700$ for an unused 2. Hand phone because there are people in here who buy phones from carriers under contract and sell right away to use it like a bank loan. People who are in need of quick cash but cannot get it from banks follow this bizarre method.