yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Xperia Z5 General] frankm87:
I invite everybody to click on the link.

"Obviously the Z5 camera is considerably inferior", people might think.

Unless, obviously, you didn't take into account the wider field of view and/or the cropped part of the picture is not in the center zone (eg. Z5 pictures' edges have lower quality due to optical performance, which is OK, somewhat).

Sorry to insist with this here, but the pics in your link are extremely worrying for potential Z5 buyers.
[Xperia Z5 General] EQ2000:
Just read the post becouse information about cropping and wide angle lens difference is there (even though both Z1 and Z5 have wide lenses but Z5 is wider). Though what they first need to fix is the white balance in low light. It goes to much for blue tint even when it is medium-low light indoors (ISO 640-800) which gives a way to cold image compared to reality. The Z1 with mods pretty much nails it in most difficult situations and easily in regular situations. So Sony can make it, its up to them and the hardware is better. So until then I use my Z1 with mods as it just performs better and has more settings to change. The Z5c I'll switch to when it surpasses my Z1, since I bought it with a 40% discount offert I could still sell it from a year on and not lose anything if Sony dont changes some things and no mods are available. :cool:
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
I see no value in looking at pictures taken at ISO 6400. Image quality is going to nonexistent no matter what. Also, many times those high ISO images are actually exposure boosted in-camera from lower ISO shots.

With sensors of this size, anything above ISO 800 is going to give you bad image quality.

Below is a video of Note 5 and LG V10 where image quality in very low light is tested. Pay attention to the used ISO values. And those cameras don't even go higher than ISO 2700 (LG).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syo2ZtEuN_I

In this sensor size, Sony is the only manufacturer who even offers this high ISO values. I believe that LG's ISO 2700 is the next highest. As evident in the video, ISO 2700 images and video looks like complete crap. Unusable for anything.
[Xperia Z5 General] EQ2000:
Shows the cappabilities though and ISO 6400 is both hardware and software and increases results in much better shots than ISO3200 and way less noise in very low light situations. You cant get anywhere near those results just altering exposure and curves in Photoshop. Was so dark you couldn't make out colors nor details. The Z1 live preview viewfinder was near pitch black and the Z5c live preview viewfinder barely showed anything (Z5c viewfinder is noticably better at showing scene in dark environment). Quite usable though at media sharing resolutions considering other phones would give you a smearing of shades with only some visible detail and look exposure boosted! I've not seen any Note 5/S6 ISO 1250 non-macro shot nor G4 ISO 2700 shot that show such detail and clarity while keeping noise in relatively good check. That said whe are talking about mobile phones so quite impressive. :cool:

https://flic.kr/p/CQd6Z8

As for ISO 3200 at 20,7MP yes it does give quite a lot of noise but at mediasharing resolutions it 'works' but of course I would aim at keeping the ISO as low as possible (active scenes else higher shutter speed for static scenes) even if it looks darker than what is visible unless to much of the scene integrity is lost. :D

Z1 SA 20,7MP at ISO 6400

Z1 SA 20,7MP at ISO 3200

Of course at SA 8MP the image quality is better between ISO 1600 and 3200 as you have a much cleaner image but a bit less detail. barely any color noise compared to color noise of varying degree on SA 21MP mode (ISO of about 2000-3200 with icnreasing color noise factor depeding on situation and scene). And in SA 8MP since it uses the whole sensor you get 'super pixel' effect where it equals pixel size of over 2.0 micron and as such in low light if more often use the extra hardware cappabilities and software to lit up image between ISO 1600 and 3200 and just puts the competition to shame point blank as they put out photos that cant compete even at lower ISO values and slower shutter speed. And the extra HW sensor boost and Bionz processing is not just available for ISO 6400 but also below. Depends on when the superior mode wants to activate it based on scene. Seen it in ISO 2000, 2500, 3200, 4000, 5000. :cool:

SA 8MP, 1/16, ISO 3200.

SA 21MP downscaled to 8MP, 1/16, ISO 3200.

SA 8MP, 1/8, ISO 6400.

:cool:
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
When we talk about high ISO performance and image quality, detail levels and noise are just one thing to look at. Detail levels will stay reasonable until very high ISO values with proper noise reduction during post-processing. What no post-processing is going to fix is color reproduction and dynamic range. Especially color reproduction is going to take hit early on. Z5's color reproduction is reasonable up to ISO 1000. Beyond that things fall apart. That's a very good performance for a sensor this size. On my previous phone Note 3, colors started to fall apart already at ISO 400.

Looking at EQ2000's ISO 6400 images, i would estimate that the dynamic range is under 1 stop. Color reproduction is nonexistent. In my opinion, this kind of image quality is usable for nothing. Well, maybe for some low-fi artsy stuff.
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
I'm sure most people here will understand without any tests, that claim is complete nonsense. Just for fun i decided to perform that test in moderate light (it's snowing here at the moment).

Attached are the cropped images on top of each other. The level of enlargement is at 100% for the 20MP image. I don't think there is need to tell which image is which. You really need to see an eye doctor if you can't tell the images apart.

The level of detail in that 20MP image is very high indeed.
[Xperia Z5 General] gm007:
Maybe he is saying to down scale 20mp to 2mp to see the difference not the opposite
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
What do you mean? He is very clearly talking about detail levels. We can't compare retrieved detail levels if we downsize the images.

This was the first time i took images in 2MP mode. The results are horrible. In 2MP mode images are clearly over-sharpened and dynamic range is reduced in post-processing. I recommend everybody to stay clear of the 2MP mode.
[Xperia Z5 General] thesebastian:
That is right.

N0whereMan, you need to relax. This is not a fight!

Here are some instructions:

- Pickup an object, like a box of cereals, with some logos, different details, some texts (very important), etc. You'll be doing a close-up photo of an object. (Not a white park at long distance).

- Take a photo at 20MP (16:9).

- Take the same photo at 2MP (16:9).

- Compare both photos at 2MP size. (100% size in the 2MP photo and 32% in the 20MP one).

- Compared details, like text/font quality, in the middle, at the corner, etc.

- And post the originals! Use google drive, mega, whatever you want, zipped, unzipped.....

P.S.: No one is suggesting to use 2MP!
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
I am now even more convinced that you are being sarcastic. You are not making any sense.
[Xperia Z5 General] gm007:
At 2mp the image look sharper with more details, i think 20mp has strong noise post processing profile that's why.

Anyway a raw file support will be perfect if we can have it later with an update so everyone can tweak his images as he like.
[Xperia Z5 General] thesebastian:
Think whatever you want. I'm not.

95%-99% of your posts are in this topic, you are a user dedicated to just post in this topic, and "praise" the Z5 camera, If someone is a troll, it's you.

Just stop, please.

Sent from my E5823

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

Exactly what I was saying.

I hope it is improved in MM

Sent from my E5823
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
I get it. You guys are just pulling my leg. Funny.
[Xperia Z5 General] frankm87:
[MENTION=7146050]N0whereMan[/MENTION], you know what it's like on forums : sometimes you just don't understand basic things. Nobody to blame here!

Please everybody calm down. This sort of things happens to everybody.

The post was not 100% clear. Everybody can have a hard time describing things in a forum.

What sebastian would like us to try is: to take an image in 20MP, then, without moving the phone an inch, take the exact same picture in 2MP mode.

And then, observe a gigantic leap in sharpness

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

[MENTION=7146050]N0whereMan[/MENTION]:

Look at the pics here:

https://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Xperia-Z5-Z5-Compact-Z5-Premium/Camera-Photo-details-2MP-vs-8MP-vs-20MP-comparison/m-p/1079527/highlight/true#M6683
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
Yes. I did just that, and posted a comparison on previous page. Without any kind of doubt, 20MP image has tons of more detail. On the internet, there are just some people who get a laugh by trolling others. No big deal.
[Xperia Z5 General] frankm87:
Well, I have been 'trolled' too. LOL.

[MENTION=4864772]thesebastian[/MENTION], there is no possible way the 20MP pic is this blurry.

Your 8MP and 20MP shots were out of focus, you were shaky, or both.
[Xperia Z5 General] EQ2000:
Well the Sony stock app does use 25MP sensor area when creating the 2MP image. So think of the 2MP image like a 'super sampled' image. What I think is playing the biggest role here is the method to downscale and algorithms to remove noise/enhance photo details. The Bionz chip does a much better job than say regular web browser scalers and better than generic downscaling algorithms from photo editors. It all depends. For example a 23MP photo downscaled to 2MP will get blurry due to the nature of the scaler having to sort out pixels for final image. Applying sharpness or using scaling method that also applies basic or smart sharpening would improve that image without adding noise if the image from the beginning has low noise.

Try in a photo editor to downscale the 23MP photo with first 'Lanczos' that sharpens a bit, 'Bicubic', 'Bicubic Smoother' and 'Bicubic Sharpen' (create a separate sample for each) and then compare. Ofcourse it depends on the image how result will be and I think Bionz does quite good in analyzing raw photo data and applying decent scaling algorithm and post-processing.

What I noticed with Sonys algorithms and Bionz is that they are very 'intelligent' in that the proccessing applied is dependant on photo composition, resolution, ISO values, shutter speed and movement sensor parameters. Never as good as manual finegrain selective control but still good (no smart algorithm will outdo manual finergain control). :cool:
[Xperia Z5 General] frankm87:
You are trying to find a technical explanation.

The 20MP pic's quality is terrible here. It is blurry. It is everything but sharp. It is awful.

My take: don't try to find a technical explanation.

Either the Z5 is incredible crap or Sebastian has shaky hands and/or is trying to troll us.

Given there is only 1 example given, I am leaning towards the second option.
[Xperia Z5 General] thesebastian:
Please, don't point the word "troll" at me. As you can see, I participate in different kind of topics over XDA forum. (Not just Xperia ones). And I don't win anything "trolling" my phone camera.

Now, back on the topic, you are talking about these samples right?

2MP

8MP

20MP

You could be right about the shakiness at the 8MP and 20MP samples. When I have some time, I'll try a few more samples and post it here.
[Xperia Z5 General] doministry:
This comparison is a nonsense.

I mean 2mpx SEEMS to be sharper in overview BUT once these are viewed in their native resolution,

8mpx one actually shows more detail plus everything is 3 times BIGGER, to the size 2mpx one is just pixelated.

It proves pretty much nothing.
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
Dpreview just released a Z5 camera review:

http://connect.dpreview.com/post/2658453908/sony-xperia-z5-camera-review

This is a second proper review (after DxOMark) done by a respected camera review site, that i know of.

Overall i agree with dpreview's image quality assessment. Z5's image quality is without a doubt very good.

DxOMark does not review camera software. Dpreview does. So i was expecting dpreview to criticize Z5's camera software. They did mention the ridiculously limited camera features and the very unintuitive camera app UI, but i think they are too soft on Sony. Dpreview clearly failed to test any 3rd party camera apps, as they claim that camera features and UI limitations can be fixed by using a 3rd party camera app.

Another weird thing is that dpreview failed to acknowledge Z5's unique ultra wide-angle lens. In the comment section the reviewer claimed that Z5's focal length (35mm equivalent) is 28mm in 4:3 aspect ratio. That's a weird mistake to make by someone who has experience with camera lenses. I guess he shot in 16:9 mode all the time.

Anyway, i already gave feedback to dpreview on these issues.
[Xperia Z5 General] swooc:
just did a quick 100% crop preview on 2 images i took on the 8mp and 3mp size. details are pretty much the same. i can't discern whether one has more or less detail, with the only exception of the 2mp file being sharper. i guess if one is concerned about file sizes, then dropping down to the lowest MP size wouldn't be too much of a sacrifice (if at all) considering a 3mp file is enough for most applications.
[Xperia Z5 General] doministry:
Well you can't do the same crop with both since 3mpx is few times smaller.

That means if 3mpx captures "similar" detail, it's still signficantly smaller.

So it proves nothing really.

Besides that, pixel peeping doesn't say much about the photo quality.
[Xperia Z5 General] sstanton86:
Thinking of getting either a Sony z5 or Sony z5 premium today.

My main decision or deciding factor will be whether Sony is going to be implementing raw/manual controls in the marshmallow update. If not I'll stick to my LG g4 which is just incredible.

How likely do you think raw/manual will come by 6.0.1 at the very latest?
[Xperia Z5 General] thesebastian:
There is no confirmation yet.

They talked about this before Christmas in the Concept Firmware for Z3. But there were no more concept updates after this, at least with RAW support (camera 2 API full support).

Update: they've just released a new firmware in the "road to Marshmallow". Something between the Concept and the final Firmware. It is called Beta instead of Concept.

But it is still for Z3/Z3C only (and Z2):

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sonymobile.xperiabeta.signup

Sent from my E5823
[Xperia Z5 General] sstanton86:
Sweet. Thanks man.

Even with all that though, would you say it's likely we'll get it?
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
I think Sony's track record with the camera software is so bad, i wouldn't hold my breath on getting a proper camera app. From a photographers perspective the camera app is horrible. What's even worse, Sony's software has bugs that make 3rd party camera apps unusable. It's quite clear that Sony has not been considering photography enthusiasts at all. Is Sony going to create proper camera software in the near future? I'd say likely not, but I hope i am wrong.

Your LG G4 has arguably the best camera software on the market today. If your decision really depends on having a proper camera software, i would wait before buying Z5. Galaxy S7 will launch shortly, so if i were you, i would wait and see what Samsung has come up with.
[Xperia Z5 General] millicent:
The review also claims z5's back is plastic, wonder what device was he/she reviewing
[Xperia Z5 General] doministry:
Sony had a sensible Camera UI and software before anyone else.
[Xperia Z5 General] gm007:
They thought anything not glass is plastic lol
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
Really? On which phone? At least on Z5's camera app nothing sensible.
[Xperia Z5 General] gm007:
And the story will start all over lol
[Xperia Z5 General] doministry:
From X1 onwards.

On Z5 pretty much good.

---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 PM ----------

Hopefully not.

It makes me a bit sad most of the talk here is about more or less marginal aspects.

And almost nobody talks about the main thing which is pics quality.

And I see almost no pictures here. Most of the talk is purely theroetical.

Looks like people like to whine but most of them don't use the device.
[Xperia Z5 General] sstanton86:
Thought I'd lighten the mood, and get things back on track. I stumbled across the following link, on Sony Xperia on Twitter, and thought it quite a good showcase for what this phone can do - with limited manual options - now just imagine what it could do if you could capture in raw.

Have a gander : blogs.sonymobile.com/2015/11/03/capturing-wildlife-photography-at-dawn-with-chaitanya-desphande/?rl=global-en

After looking through the blog, would love someone to explain the synergy between exposure and shutter speed. Can lowering the exposure speed up the shutter?
[Xperia Z5 General] gm007:
Speeding up the shutter will lower the exposure time,so less light coming to the sensor means darker final image,as long as iso and aperture have fixed values.
[Xperia Z5 General] swooc:
i would say no. i've followed sony since the original z, and people have been asking for more flexibility in manual options since then. and if they were to open raw support, id think youd hear it through rumours by now. more likely though, i think they will eventually give us full control of shutter speeds. don't ask me when though :P.
[Xperia Z5 General] pipspeak:
So it seems the general consensus is that the Z5 camera is really not much improved on the Z3. Is that right?

I think the Z3 camera is rubbish to be honest. Auto mode is appalling and I find it next to impossible to get a photo that's not a blurred mess, color shading is present in most indoor lighting situations, the flash is feeble, the jpeg processing introduces horrible artifacts all over the place, high-ISO eliminates some noise by obliterating all detail, and the camera is overall just too slow to boot up (hit camera icon and wait several seconds for the camera app to start up, hit shutter and wait another half second, miss the moment).

So is the Z5 any better on any of these fronts? Oh, and does the front camera still have the soft-focus effect?
[Xperia Z5 General] EQ2000:
From what you describe you must have a Chinese copy or it's broken becouse my Z1 going by your Z3 description would 'split it in half' regarding camera perfomance which is top notch. and the Z5c is really good bar some tweaking needed for white balance in some low light situations. Clear "camera app", "camera common" and "cameras" data and cache and see what happens (should always be done when camera is updated). Also check lens cover if it is damaged. Otherwise send it in to Sony so they can repair it becouse it is broken. That's it! :cool:
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
When the camera software is so bad that it makes many types of photography impossible or excessively difficult, it very much is related to image quality. In addition, we are having this discussion on mobile software development community, so talking and critiquing the related software is kind of self-evident.

Compared to smartphones by LG, Samsung and Microsoft, the camera software on Z5 is severely lacking in features and in usability. Sony has outdated and substandard camera software, compared to the competition. This is just a fact. Your whining about people who constructively criticize Sony's camera software doesn't change the facts.

Here is another photographer who lays out the same criticism about the camera app as i have on this thread:

http://connect.dpreview.com/post/2658453908/sony-xperia-z5-camera-review?page=3

Of course you can continue your reliance on Sony's automatic software. There is nothing wrong with that. Most photographers just like to have the creative control of exposure on their own hands. Most photographers don't like unintuitive camera user interfaces. Most photographers hate it when camera software creates unnecessary restrictions on how the camera can be used.
[Xperia Z5 General] doministry:
F... You're the most annoying user here. Seriously. You have fun trolling?

Everybody here already remembers how unhappy you are. That's enough.

I think you're just lost. You just can use the tool you have, that's it, that's a fact.

It's a pity you manipulate a bit here. Since the link you gave is mostly praying the Z5's camera as worth recommending, while noting things to improve.

To sum it up, two main, profi sites state Z5's camera as basically great and that's the main outcome which we should see here, that is the FACT.

As I said it's boring you have to sh..t here with your personal frustrations.

And just to make a point, here is what you can do.

It's a cooperation with one of the most famous polish photographers..

http://blogs.sonymobile.com/pl/2016/02/02/wolanski-‒-reporter/

http://blogs.sonymobile.com/pl/2015/12/02/premiera-kalendarza-dzentelmeni-2016/

All of the sessions by Z5.

Sorry it's in polish....

Now please, LET'S MOVE ON and at least try to be a little bit creative here.

I mean your moaning is destroying the thread, literally.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

Hard to say what was your problem.

Auto mode is not that great honestly. I'd recommend manual modes or at least scenes.

And secondly the best results are captured with 23mpx in good light, and 8mpx in worse conditions.

I've had Z2 for over 1,5 years and loved it. Now I have Z5 and love it more.
[Xperia Z5 General] Mano1982:
As an Xperia Z3 owner, i don't understand what you are saying. I have almost no photography knowledge & i am sure you know more than me when it comes to photography, but to say that Xperia Z3's camera is a blurred mess etc is not true at all. My brothers have Galaxy Note 4, Galaxy S6 Edge, iPhone 6 Plus & whenever i post a picture taken with Xperia Z3, they say that they are unable to capture that sharp & great image. Now i am not saying that Xperia Z3 is better than Galaxy & iPhone phones, but point is that it is not blurred mess or something. Have a look at my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mansoor_elahi/ (All the pictures since February 2015 are taken with Xperia Z3).

And when it comes to camera boot up speed, it never takes several seconds, not all. See here: https://youtu.be/1jr_FkZ-G-8
[Xperia Z5 General] N0whereMan:
I hope you at least feel better after these personal insults.
[Xperia Z5 General] WinterSkies:
Hi all :) nice to meet you. I am waiting for my Z5 to ship. I bought it because many here talk about its good camera performance, albeit with some weak points, because of its wide-angle lens, because I love its design much more than that of its competitors and because I somehow like Sony in general.

Thank you for your discussion. I think I have learned many things from it.

I humbly think any criticism can only encourage Sony to develop better camera software for their phones, so it is in our best interest to highlight what can be improved in order for both beginners and semi-advanced users to be happy with their cameras.

Franly I have seen plenty of good and plenty of unsatisfying photos from the Z5 on the Internet, so I think unhappy users have the right to voice their frustration. Their whining might as well get Sony to improve things in the end. As long as it is expressed in a respectful fashion, it is not trolling.

Just my 2 cents. I will let you know how my Z5 performs in the future. Have a good day!