yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Mysticales:
Having a little trouble here. Not sure whats up. Tried on Windows 10 and XP just in case. With my Galaxy S6 920T 5.0.2 , I have the Engineering BL for 920F 5.0.2. I am trying to get it to flash on Odin for the 1st part. However keeps failing. Not sure what to really try here. Aside from of course, giving up and blowing knox to hell. =(

<ID:0/004> Added!!

<OSM> Enter CS for MD5..

<OSM> Check MD5.. Do not unplug the cable..

<OSM> Please wait..

<OSM> sboot.tar.md5 is valid.

<OSM> Checking MD5 finished Sucessfully..

<OSM> Leave CS..

<ID:0/004> Odin engine v(ID:3.1005)..

<ID:0/004> File analysis..

<ID:0/004> SetupConnection..

<ID:0/004> Initialzation..

<ID:0/004> Get PIT for mapping..

<ID:0/004> Firmware update start..

<ID:0/004> SingleDownload.

<ID:0/004> sboot.bin

<ID:0/004> NAND Write Start!!

<ID:0/004> FAIL!

<ID:0/004>

<ID:0/004> Complete(Write) operation failed.

<OSM> All threads completed. (succeed 0 / failed 1)

Edit: Fixed! I needed a 920T Eng BL. Which passed. =D
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] georgetheo77:
Yes, you make thinks very clear! So, i have to wait till someone release 5.1.1 engineering bootloader or to take the decision and trip my knox.

Thank you very much for your help!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Mysticales:
Sigh, I got the eng bl to flash.. got the twrp to flash. Cant get the phone to go into recovery mode.. Not sure whats up here. Unless I just suck at the vol +, home, Pwr thing..
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
Sure there is. You have to first extract the files from the stock ROM. The tar.md5 is actually an archive, you can rename it to just .tar and extract all the files inside of it.

Then you'll have to make a tar for each file you want to flash manually and be carefully when you flash a component to place it where it belongs inside the Odin options (ex: BT, AP, etc).
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] deepphrozen:
5.0.2 was not possible for any reason, but now my KNOX is clean again after flashing stock 5.1.1
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Salim09:
Hi , my device is already rooted ( on 5.0.2 ) should i flash a stock rom 5.0.2 befor following this tutorial ?

Thanks !
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
I think it's the same trial and error process that I went to when finding the right combo for 5.1.1.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
Theoretically, you only need to flash the engineering bootloader in order to be able to flash a custom 5.0.2 kernel afterwards without tripping Knox.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] speedyranger:
Hi and thanks for your work.

Can I have that bootloader?

I thing to try.

For now I stay in 5.0.2 with root provided by pingpong. ..

Thanks again ?

Enviado desde mi SM-G925F mediante Tapatalk
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
Hi. You have a PM.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pauljblo:
hi

i had the problem when on 5.0.2 the device gets stuck on the samsung screen.

to fix i flashed a stock 5.1.1 rom. then flashed engineering bootloader then i can now flash anythink without tripping knox
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
That indeed is another viable fix for the stuck on boot for 5.0.2.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Vaira:
Can this engineering bootloader reset KNOX to zero which has been already tripped?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
I'm not sure but I don't think so. Only the engineers at a Samsung Service can do that I believe.

You're of course free to try it and let us all know.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MrC85:
[MENTION=1372407]pmichaelro[/MENTION] can you PM me the bootloader please
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
You have a PM
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Vaira:
I am still with KNOX 0x0...but I have read the entire thread. According to deepphrozen he's reset it to zero, I have quoted the bit saying that...well at least I understand f****d up and clean again that way, lol

[MENTION=1322595]deepphrozen[/MENTION]

Can you confirm it or were you too much emotionally involved? :D

It would be great to know, thanks.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
Yes, so it seems. But I'm not 100% convinced until I see proof of Knox tripped then Knox untripped :)

Better proceed with caution before rather then after.

I would try this myself if in my country the service center wasn't so stiff.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Vaira:
I have generally no problem with tripping it. But if I'd trip it then for a good reason and to learn something, not just to blow it to have a look if it can be reset. It makes no sense since there are a lot who are on 0x1 already who could test that. :)

I have still hope that chainfire finds a way to update his super SU that it can run on 5.1.1. with stock kernel. It's good to have a 'frontdoor' (engineer bootloader):D
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
Best change is to either get an engineering bootloader for 5.1.1 (so that we can have fingerprint sensor working again) or have this fallback method, meaning trip the **** out of Knox, do whatever then if service is required, just flash the engineering bootloader then the stock ROM and all is forgotten :)

I've tried too hard not to trip it so...I'll wait for someone who's tripped to do the extra testing for this.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Batfink33:
I thought Knox was a hardwired fuse so once it's blown, it's blown.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] pmichaelro:
Some people have suggested it's not. Someone actually said that a Samsung Service can reset it.

I don't think it's a hardware fuse anymore...that can burn :)
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] spirit.of.resistance:
Is it better for me to stay on 5.0.2 or upgrate to 5.1.1 before doing this stuff ?

envoyé depuis mon Galaxy S6 Edge
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] alessio.71:
Could you be more specific? Phone model, actual FW, eng bootldr version, etc. ?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] gnogno1985:
Sorry for the OT but where can I find the same guide for S6 920F? Is this process possible with all the firmwares 5.1.1?I recently bought this phone with G920FXXU2COH2 firmware.

I would like to root this phone, so I ask you if with this firmware I could have root without tripping Knox counter and if I decide to upgrade the device to G920FXXU3COI9 firmware could I have root whithout tripping Knox counter?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Only possible for firmware before COI9. If u updated to latest firmware OTA then eng bootloader will not work for you.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] gnogno1985:
I'm a stupid!!! I upgraded just turned on the phone and I didn't think about the possible consequences...so bye bye root!! What can I do now? Only waiting for another bootloader compatible with the new firmware?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Keep fingers crossed wait for some new method.

You can root no prob but u will lose knox. If u not bothered about knox you can root any time.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] gnogno1985:
Yes I know this but I bought this phone 3 days ago and I don't want to loose my warranty too soon:)

Where can I follow any developments and new methods? In this Thread??

P.S. If I put on my device another firmware (also from another country) with odin doesn't it work?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Mysticales:
Was a T-Mobile USA S6, On 5.0.2.

Was given the 5.0.2 ENG BL for it, which passed in odin, however would never boot up or recovery mode. Even wouldnt let me flash the 5.0.2 stock again. Got so frustrated, I said to hell with knox. Blew it up, now Im on 5.1.1 with Xtrestolite on unikernel. So much easier when you screw the rules... and have green hair...
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] {M+H}:
Thanks
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Nothing available yet.

And once updated to COI9 then no way back even if you flash stock rom from mars.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] BuzzFuzz:
grrrr Samsung and Knox. Want just root and nothing else but still keeping fingerprint scanner 5.1.1 :(
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
U can root anytime n keep fingerprint but u will lose knox.

If u wanna keep knox and have root then no fingerprint.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] diablo198:
TWRP and the Original Lolypop bootloader trigged the Knox?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] sahhar1993:
what is the knox O.o ?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Knox is the security feature samsung build in phonph to stop running custom scripts. Some belive knox is a efuse once blown cant b fixed. By tripped knox samsung engineers know if the phone is being modified with custom script.

So knox is used for warranty

Also if its tripped you cant have samsung pay which is like apple pay.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MoHuToP:
So, what about the killin' knox counter down to zero? Any addictional information about the story, around 60~ pages before?

And few question: 1. Is there any chance to look up the device box and gain any information about the release date (manufacturing date) and firmware version (PDA and CSC)before buying from the store Which rom version will be OK to go buy?

2. What about the colors? Which color we must be avoid because of the new firmware?

3. It's fact the in my country the roms are different than yours - which one will be safe to go though via flashing before eng. bl (Picture below)?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
1. Knox cant b reset(yet) there is no proof.

2. You cant tell with box or color which firmware is loaded.

3. You can ask shop assistant if the phone thy selling is recently brought in or is old stock.

4. Most of the phones come with older version as thy packed and shipped months in advance. So turn the phone on and do not update.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] zazzal87:
So I am not really concerned about tripping knox as I work for a company who will replace my phone for me without me having to go through the hoops of making sure knox is in tact. My question is will this method still work on a 925A and just trip knox or do I run a higher risk of damaging the phone or even bricking it? I have installed custom kernals and roms many times before but this is the first method I have been able to find with instructions on how to get root access with 5.1.1 already installed and really want to try it. Like i said dont care if knox is tripped just want to make sure wont brick. Thanks in advance.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Then u sud simply follow chainfire auto root.

Search cf auto root sm925.

This method is only if u dont wanna trip knox.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] labeeqhussain:
Please Help?

Im on 5.1.1 and I really want to root my phone, but before I do, just wanted to confirm. If I root my phone using this method then I'm going to lose my fingerprint scanner? Is that true?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
True
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] labeeqhussain:
Will there ever be a way around?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
No not at this moment. Just for the record, if you're using latest TW Rom this method may not work
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] AlexBz94:
Hi, does anyone know if there is an kernel for G920F made by Alex-V or similar to his one for G925F ? that kernel worked perfect
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Alian01:
Is it possible to root the 920F with this same method without tripping KNOX? If so how? Also may I request a 920F engineering bootloader if it is possible? Thanks!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] crobo:
I would like to know this too.

Another lil question: with this method you lose the fingerprint option, but if you restore it back to stock (e.g. because of warranty), do you get the fingerprint option back?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] maxynorbi:
Yes
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] coco722:
engineering bootloader for G925F on 5.1.1

Hi, may I have the engineering bootloater (for the G925F, LP 5.1.1). Thank's.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] hondasat:
Hi, Can I have the engineering bootloater as well?

I already sent you a PM request.

My phone G925F - Baseband G925FXXU3COI9 - Knox 0

Thanks

EDIT: I find out with google the AFH file by #pmichaelro.

I'm on COI9 firmware and doesn't work (Odin says FAIL), maybe it's an issue with latest TW Rom?

Which is the latest one compatible with the engeenering root? Does anybody know?

Thanks
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
Issue with newer TW Roms. Samsung patched it so until someone comes with a new method you are stuck and unfortunately you can't downgrade
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] hondasat:
Thank you GEOZ for your reply.

I was thinking to downgrade by one or two version untill to find out the correct FW, but if you say it won't work. I don't do anything.:crying:

I'll wait for a new method then :angel::(:(
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] ayamgoreng:
what samsung did in the new firmware that block engineering bootloader ?

prevent bootloader downgrade ?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] inkanyamba:
Did anyone manage to revert to any 5.0.2 build/custom ROM after flashing the engineering bootloader? If so, how?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
You cant. You cant even install this eng BL on 5.0.2
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MoHuToP:
What about the firmwares in the picture, which one is safe to flash before eng. bl. And of course, can I grab one copy of eng. bootloader?

Best regards
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] LEENO:
when i will have root on 5.1.1 rom with unikernel and modified 5.0.2 boot as op guide, if i flash stock bootloader, kernel and recovery, will i have full stock rom with root, knox 0x0 and working fingerprint sensor? Or s6 will go in bootloop?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] djsesion85:
hi, i need engineering bootload for sm-g925f, can u help me, by the way... u`re from romania?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] mefistos:
Yup :) 0x0 knox and no bootloop:)
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Jay018:
Thankf for this. :)
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MoHuToP:
Please, send me engineering bootloader? Thanks :)
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] inkanyamba:
You need to make sure that everything is stock as soon as you flash the stock bootloader: system (ROM), recovery, kernel, modem etc. Everything or you'll definitely trip KNOX and could go into a bootloop.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] LEENO:
if i have root and knox 0x0

and i flash stock rom without system (for keep root), will i have bootloop or knox 0x0?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Your knox will trip simple.

Everything stock = knox 0x0 = fingerprint working = no root

Or

Everything stock = fingerprint working = root = knox 0x1

Or

Eng BL = no fingerprints = root = knox 0x0 (only for roms less then coi9)
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] PinoF75:
More informations

Hello.

I'm writing because I'm interested to flash another rom without tripping Knox?

So, I need the engineering bootloader for my device!

Below, the data about my device:

Model: SM- G925F

Base band: G925FXXU3QOJQ

Build: LMY47X.G925FXXU3QOJQ

I hope this data are enough for you. Anyway, don't hesitate to contacts me for any question.

Thanks in advance for your reply!!

Have a nice day

Pino
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] HectorSmarties:
Hello,

Could someone please send me the engineering bootloader for the G920F?

baseband G920FXXU3COI9

build LMY47X.G920FXXU3COJ1

Thanks!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] nsvladimir:
Not possible for COI9
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] inkanyamba:
COI9 doesn't allow downgrading the bootloader to the engineering one that's currently available. You're out of luck, sorry.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] HectorSmarties:
Thanks for the replies. I had already tried it with the engineering bootloader ROM I had found in another website, and got the SW REV FAIL message of doom.

So, what are my current options to root my 920F without voiding the warranty? At the moment, I have disabled auto-OTA so I don't get any more pesky updates until I have a solution. As I am new to the Samsung rooting scene (I am really missing my Nexus 4 now....), do I have any hope of another exploit popping up for the COI9?

Thanks!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] inkanyamba:
There's no known way of rooting this firmware revision without tripping KNOX.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Fingers crossed ... some one will b brining sloution soon.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
I think any developer for this will wait for Marshmallow as it will be released shortly
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
MM will be almost carring same files i.e. no downgrade possibility, locked BL etc etc.

I think sensible option will be to stay at which ever android ver we got until knox saveable rooting available. And if knox is already saved go with custom roms.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
yep Sammy always making it difficult for users not to modify their devices but you have to keep in mind that the more they try the more creative developers become.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] PinoF75:
Simeone could help me?

Any news for me?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] davide136:
For xxu3coi9 g920f so it's not possible trough this method..but if I don't care about knox and want a better rom than 5.1.1?

Miss u N5
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Hetex:
Could i have pm for bootloader for g925F
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
Then simply follow the rom op.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] davide136:
What you mean? I should have a locked bootloader right? It means I can't install anything, no recovery, no bootloader, no System. ..am i wrong?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] neebi007:
I meant if u dont care bout knox u can simple install any rom u want as described in respective rom thread.

I.e. if u want xtrestolite rom on ur phone and u dont care for savin knox then head to roms thread and follow how to install rom in opening(1st) post. Simple.

And u have not got locked BL just a security issue with ur BL that u cant downgrade it.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Juwi97:
Anybody can give me a download for the G925F?

Thanks!!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] sloba:
Anybody can give me eng bootloader 5.1.1 for the G925F?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Hybridmax:
You have a PM!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] PinoF75:
And for me?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] twedie:
And for me please

Envoyé de mon SM-G920F en utilisant Tapatalk
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] coco722:
Still waiting for Eng bootloader.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Apfelman123:
Hallo i have the same Firmware on my s6 edge

Model: SM- G925F

Base band: G925FXXU3QOJQ

Build: LMY47X.G925FXXU3QOJQ

have you get the the engineering bootloader and try to Root?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Hybridmax:
You have a PM.

You can't flash the engineering Bootloader, cause your Baseband is too new. Samsung has fixed this on all newer Firmwares.

So you can only root with tripping KNOX.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Alerion5:
Does this work for the COI9 version? Would appreciate an answer :)
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] teraßyte:
No, because the COI9 firmware has a new bootloader that doesn't allow downgrading.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] aljee77:
No, is not possible. You must be root your device with TWRP and SuperSU-v2.61.zip. With Knox 0x1.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Alerion5:
What if I don't download it and trip knox. Will it work? Don't really care about tripping knox
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] teraßyte:
If you don't care about tripping Knox, then that's a completely different story :D
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Ozzyfozzy:
engineering bootloader for this?

Model: SM-G925F

Baseband: G925FXXU3QOK

Build: LMY47X

lollipop 5.1.1

<ID:0/006> Added!!

<ID:0/006> Odin engine v(ID:3.1005)..

<ID:0/006> File analysis..

<ID:0/006> SetupConnection..

<ID:0/006> Initialzation..

<ID:0/006> Get PIT for mapping..

<ID:0/006> Firmware update start..

<ID:0/006> SingleDownload.

<ID:0/006> sboot.bin

<ID:0/006> NAND Write Start!!

<ID:0/006> FAIL!

<ID:0/006>

<ID:0/006> Complete(Write) operation failed.

<OSM> All threads completed. (succeed 0 / failed 1)

<ID:0/006> Removed!!

i get this on Odin 3.10.6
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Dic3ptor:
Please send 5.1.1 SM-G925F bootloader (thank you for providing it)

Baseband: G925FXXU3COI9

I know it doesnt work mith COI9 but i need it. :D
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] mihaixp:
I have seen in the previous posts that the Root without tripping Knox on COI9 is not possible. I now have the COK5 version (same changelog as COI9). Would this method work on mine without triggering Knox or there is no way of doing it? Thanks.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] aljee77:
No, the engineering bootloader can no longer be flashing since the OI9 firmware and all other newer firmwares.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] SethNY:
I have used your procedure and your tool to upgrade from G925FXXU2QOI7 (rooted) to the latest S6Edge firmware G925FXXU3QOLF. I have root, knox is still 0. It works perfectly. Thank you!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] success123:
please, can someone help explain what happens when the knox it been tripped.....apart from it voiding the warranty, does it mean that you cant install a stock rom on the sm-g925f again? and what are the disadvantages for the knox being tripped.......................... am new to this rooting stuff, wanna understand and learn from you guys...:o:o:o:o:o:) thanks
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] tinko975:
you can still flash stock firmware thru odin, but not OTA.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] success123:
thanks bro:o
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MasterThiefGarrett:
So I'm on COI9 (just bought this S6) but I see that it isn't possible to root without tripping Knox... damn... no pingpong root or kingroot or anything?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] lazside:
Hi,

Wil this method work after i upgrade from 5.0.2 to 5.1.1 ( G925FXXU2COH2 )

Thanks
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] nsvladimir:
Yes
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] gowtham1337:
Hi,

I went through most of the thread but got really confused. Could anyone please answer these questions for me?

1. I need root for ad blocking and also need to be on the latest firmware(don't need OTA. can flash manually) to use Samsung Pay. Also, can't lose hardware features such as Fingerprint scanner. Can this be done at all?

2. If the above is possible, can I do that on an international S6 Edge unlocked? (SM-G925F)

Thank you so much!!
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
if you want to upgrade to 5.1.1 then find the older Roms which is supported newer does not
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Slimboball:
You can root, but you'll trip Knox. This will allow fingerprint scanner etc but Samsung Pay will be unlikely to work, when it comes out.

Yes, you can do this on your model.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MasterThiefGarrett:
This might be ignorance from me, but can't we just flash an older stock ROM (pre-COI9) and still flash the older bootloader then?
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
You can do that if you've not flashed any newer Rom or you're still on 5.0.2. Keep in mind that once newer Rom is flashed you can't downgrade
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MasterThiefGarrett:
No I actually mean that there are several versions of 5.1.1, some 5.1.1 versions will allow flashing the 5.0.2 bootloader, where the newer ones won't.

If I could flash back to 5.0.2 ROM then I definitely would.

Personally I don't really care if I trip Knox or not, it's just that I'm not sure yet if I'm gonna keep this phone, or sell it to get a Note 5 for example.

I already know that I have a couple of potential buyers, who will not want a tripped Knox.

So like I said, IF I'll keep it I'll trip it... just gotta make up my mind :P
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
That's exactly what I meant in a short answer. You can't downgrade if a newer version already flashed, there are several versions of 5.1.1 but its only good for people who still has 5.0.2 on their device or those who have not flashed any newer version (eg. CO19 etc). I hope you get it now
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] MasterThiefGarrett:
OK, thanks anyway :)

Too bad that Knox has been around for like 2 years and it's still not cracked...properly...
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] lazside:
Upgraded from 5.0.2 ( OE3 ) to 5.1.1 ( COH2 ) then Rooted

after this upgraded to 5.1.1 ( COI9 ) Still rooted and Knox not tripped:D

Thanks
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] acdjkz:
Hi, can you please tell me if engineering bootloader for G925F (S6edge) will work on G928F (S6edgePlus)?

Thanks.
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] nsvladimir:
No
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] monteiro-ribas:
can someone send pm link for 920f?

thx
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] VaLDii:
How current is still here?:verwirrt:
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] droidbits:
[MENTION=1372407]pmichaelro[/MENTION]

Hi there!

Will this method work using the engineered bootloader but flashing the new CM 13 based on Marshmallow 6.0?

Will Knox still be intact?

Thanks in advance!

Edit: link to the CM 13 for S6/S6 Edge http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3269984
[Galaxy S6 Edge General] Geoz:
Provided the engineered bootloader is not changed you can flash any custom ROM and Knox will still be intact