yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Off-topic] RichardKAthena:
iPhone will not be so locked down that it cannot be personalised. However, you are misinterpreting and misquoting what I said. I don't know how stable the iPhone OS is, and I'm not referring to the stability of the OS.

I'm referring to the stability of the user experience.

Now, my gut feeling (based on the quality of the phone applications in the HTC devices I've used compared to Symbian, SE and Motorola devices) is that in look and feel, user experience and reliability, beating WM would be like shooting fish in a barrel. It works, sure, but it is not pretty, it is not consistent, and it is not reliable. Just witness the caller ID mess on Bluetooth. This isn't a "WM is crap WHAAA" post, it's just an objective observation; you will note that I USE A WM5 AND WM6 DEVICE. By choice. I am aware of the options, and of course I'd like things to be better, but it does the job and the hardware offers a lot of advantages.

Now, if you're really interpreting it the way you say you are, then I suggest you read more closely. I thoroughly expect people to skim the post, see "iPhone good, WM bad", and respond - even though I simply being objective and acknowledging the faults and benefits of BOTH platforms. iPhone is going to succeed, and it's going to do that largely on hype and marketing, but that's not to say that Apple won't have got some things right, because that's what they do. They didn't come to dominate the music player market by producing a product which had all the flaws of the competition with none of the benefits; they polished it and got it right.

HTC make lovely hardware. It runs alright with WM. Give it a better OS and it would be amazing. Is there really any logical reason why the camera on the Ameo is so woefully slow? The call/end buttons on the Universal are positioned RIGHT where your fingers rest if you use it as a phone and have no distinquishing features when not lit? These devices do not have the depth and quality of industrial design that Apple employs in their consumer devices.

What trade do people want to make? Do they want their music library dragged together by Windows Media, including the ringtones it finds on the HD, or do they want iTunes "plug and play" simplicity (and if anyone wants to slag off iTunes, trust me - I have heard all the criticisms before. The ones I'll accept are that it's a bit slow with large libraries, and it doesn't handle a wide range of codecs by default - I've used every device from Archos to Zen and nothing touches an iPod for sheer intuitive behaviour, or iTunes for genuinely maintaining an organised, logical music library).
[Off-topic] OdeeanRDeathshead:
I will never use itunes because when on it communicates over the internet even if I set it not to. A lot of apps do this of course but with itunes the connectivity is needed so blocking it is not an option. I need to trust that my system is working for me and not apple. If that same problem was on the iphone then because you can't write a firewall for it your privacy is gone.

My employer has over 10000 wm devices and they operate for weeks at a time with no resetting. They get software updates remotely and are mainly used by non technical users. I personaly use these to work with and I have not been able to crash one. We drop them and get them dirty but still they run. Is that unstable.

I would not gamble with you because you seem like a nut to me and I would not want to exchange details with you.

(This post was done using the real keyboard , from a park bench, over 3g, on my dopod 838 pro. Something I will never be able to do with an iphone!)
[Off-topic] RichardKAthena:
What absolute, total, drivel. My son uses iTunes on his iMac, has no internet connection whatsoever, and it works perfectly. He can rip CDs, but has to type the track/artist detail in unless it is included (which is very rare), can sync the iPod, etc. He's been doing this for nearly 2 years.

I'm fully aware that these things are stable. Again, I'm talking about end-user experience. Employers with 10,000 identical devices (I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and say "courier services" or "retail" - something along the lines of Intermec handheld data terminals) will generally have specified the software set on the device, it will be limited, and it will be predictable and tested.

*snorts* Whatever. I like to talk about this stuff seriously, I've been using mobile devices of one form or another since the Tandy 102. You interpret me writing so much about it as being a nut? I interpret it as being the reason I'm paid to review hardware professionally. (I'll post pictures of my latest toys soon, one of them will be very interesting I think).

Good for you. Now listen to 7.34GB of music on it for 24 hours without having to recharge. I was posting to Usenet in 1998 from an HP 680LX connected with an Option One GSM datacard; I could make calls on it if I used the wired headset. It's hardly new technology in any sense of the word - each device is merely refining and targeting a specific user base.

This is what you seem to be failing to grasp. iPhone is not inherently bad. It's just not what YOU want. It's not even that expensive; an unsubsidised N73 costs... $500. And it doesn't do many consumer level things that the iPhone does, despite being targeted at that very market.

I may be a nut, but at least I know WTF I'm talking about and don't have an irrational hatred of one company ;)
[Off-topic] starkruzr:
Yes, and the line from iPhone fans about the iPhone is "it's a phone, iPod and breakthrough internet device. The best thing you can do with it make phone calls, play music and use Safari, which it does very well." This is not sufficient for me, for starters. And Steve's explanation of his "sweet solution" for developing "applications" for the iPhone was a joke and an insult to developers.

Apple is telling its customers to pay $500 for a UI. My TYTN can already do everything the iPhone can do, sans the flashy UI, plus MORE -- UMTS/HSDPA, for starters. It can also run any particular binaries you choose to run on it.

You think you've got me pegged, but you don't. I am typing this post on my Macbook Pro. For the most part, I love Apple and what they've done with computing. But Steve is taking the company in this "closed device" direction that really, really turns me off. When we were told OS X was essentially UNIX with an Apple GUI, as a geek I got really, really excited, and when I finally got my Mac, Tiger did NOT let me down.

OS X is an excellent example of how the Apple way has, for the last 7 years, been to cater both to nontechnical users and heavily technical users alike. This is what I was expecting from an Apple cell phone. I was, essentially, expecting an OS X PDA phone. This is not AT ALL what we are getting. You can't even cut and paste, ffs!

I'm sure they do. And it will. And all of the enormous hardware potential of the iPhone will be utterly wasted.

Again, you've got me wrong. I don't care about any of that. I would gladly pay $699 for an iPhone that was actually released with an SDK. Why? I want my Terminal. I want my Adium (or something like it). I want ssh, VNC, VLC, Skype, the GNU toolset, and

anything else I want

, because there is simply no compelling reason to disallow any of it. The only reason any of this is not possible is Apple's incredibly restrictive software, and the only reason Apple's software restrictions exist is AT&T's greed.

I think the iPhone will be enormously successful, but I have serious doubts Apple will ever meet my needs for a smartphone (or the needs of many, many other potential customers out there).
[Off-topic] OdeeanRDeathshead:
I call you a nut because you are trying to bet me 50 dollars over the details of an unreleased gadget and because you are so emotionally tied to the idea of the iphone that you can't stop.

I was happy to wait and see back on page one but you just can't stop defending a seemingly inferior product that you don't even have.

I don't trust Apple or microsoft. A phone carries a lot of personal information that could be very damaging in the wrong hands. My point about itunes is that with no third party apps, the iphone will not be safe because any program that apple put on it will be free to do what it wants.

Its like Nokia says, "this is what the pc has become". How many people would trust their microsoft onecare more than their norton or other security suit? Now what about trusting security to no one because their won't be any on an iphone. Just look at the 100 plus security bowser problems patched by apple last week. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

The whole discussion is pointless anyway because we do not have one and by next month it will be hacked to run third party apps anyway like apple tv.
[Off-topic] Rudegar:
doubt iphone would be that pop outside us

edge is not big around these parts umts is big

and operators have issues working with apple
[Off-topic] starkruzr:
There is some chance that someone will figure out how to install third party Widgets, but I highly doubt that anyone will figure out how to write programs for the iPhone's Cocoa API.

There exist no:

cross-compilers

libraries

UI toolkits

Even if someone figures out how to get unsigned binaries on the device, this won't help.
[Off-topic] bbobeckyj:
what?!?! stability of user experience? I have no idea what that actually means:confused:

my girlfriend has a symbian phone (at my encouragement) and we both hate it.

I don't know about bt caller id (?)

i understand that they both have and will have faults, (i know you have read in this forum and can see how much many people dislike ms or the os) but i can't see any faults described about the ms os which don't also apply to the apple os, except 'wm can be customised so that people can break their phones and that's bad'

can't dissagree with any of that

who said the 'toaster teapot' thing? it seems to apply. i don't use the camera, how can a 1 - 2 mp camera on a phone compete with my real cam? i wish they just wouldn't bother adding them on.

use your other hand :D

and apple make prettier things?! hardly an argument for better

well that's pretty much how mine works. music on pc > connect phone > drag and drop (or preset preferences so not even that is required) > listen. am I missing something that's complicated? and if my ringtones are not in my selected playlist, they don't play, either way they can be deleted from the wmp library. and how can you criticise an easily adjusted side effect of wm compatabilty, when no apple product (for the next month at least) can do the same, and when it is released may even have the same "problem"

no I've never used any mp3 (or wma) player and i don't need to

I'm far from saying wm is perfect, or else why would this site exist? But I fail to see any rational argument that it will be inferior to the iPhone os
[Off-topic] RichardKAthena:
I agree with that, for the most part. The iPhone is aimed at people that only want to do those things, however. If they want to do more, they already have options from other manufacturers. And the Web 2.0 thing - widgets on the phone? Widgets are fine, but I'd have liked to have seen third party apps too; but when the phone has been out for a while, and more is known about the actual resilience of the OS. Think about OS X for a moment - it's generally very stable. I have no reason to think that third-party apps would be less stable. However, we don't know how "consistent" this OS X on iPhone is - for all we know it's an ARM version of NetBSD with a fancy UI stuck on top, and really has no resemblence to PPC/x86 OS X.

Apple are telling its customers to pay $500 for a UI, a brand, and ease-of-use. This is surprising how? How much is OS X - $129. I can run Linux for free, why should I pay more for OS X?

And anyone who has the slightest bit of experience with computers knows OS X is very, very good. However, I don't "think I have you pegged". I simply disagree with your comments about the iPod - and slagging off the iPod is very popular with "internet pundits". Like car analogies.

As for Steve taking the company in a "closed device" direction - where the hell have you been for the past 30 years? Steve's projects:

Apple IIc - Apple II. Without slots. Looked a lot prettier though.

Macintosh - like a Lisa, except Steve DEMANDED it had no expansion capability. When they tried to put an expansion slot in disguised as a diagnostic port, he had the board redesigned.

iMac - PCI-era Mac. Originally it had one expansion option, but that was very quickly nuked.

And FWIW, the bulk of NeXT hardware sold has no expansion slots whatsoever.

"Some of these features may be addressed in future releases of the software". No, I don't get the lack of cut and paste either. However, I know Apple's history well enough to not expect a PDA, in fact for Jobs to have done as much as possible to make it "not a PDA" - even though it's already well ahead in terms of ability than classic PDAs.

(Insert rant here about Apple's failure to produce a PDA, at which I am sure they would excel, the Newton being too early for the hardware to support the software and expectations of the users - and meaning I have to use a Windows system or Missing Sync).

What hardware potential? It brings nothing new to the table aside from software. Frankly, the hardware doesn't excite me.

You get VPN. You, and a few others - myself included, would like these things from iPhone. BUT - I don't want Apple to "fail", the iPhone to "suck", or to spread FUD about the cost of the iPhone.

I agree. And that's why I won't be getting an iPhone, and why I have an Athena and Universal, and why I've been using Windows CE devices since CE 1.0.
[Off-topic] RichardKAthena:
Heh. Okay, how about you appeared pretty certain it would be $950 based on a third-party rumour, when I've been paying attention and knew it would be $499 and $599 all along - and instead of accepting this information, you choose to argue.

Of course I don't actually give a crap about the bet, but I DO have enough confidence in my information and knowledge of Apple history that I'm prepared to back it up.

And you can't stop slagging off a product you don't even have. If you read what I write, you'd see I'm not defending it, I'm pointing out the misinformation and explaining where I see the iPhone's market position.

And this has been the case for years and years. Any program any USER chooses to put on their phone/PC/whatever is free to do what the programmer wants it to do. That's how trojans get written. That lovely bit of freeware you just downloaded is probably recording your phone calls and sending them to the FBI, using the camera to photograph your mother nude and send to "teh internetz0rs" and is magically reading your credit cards and buying porn for Russians. Whilst sending spam from your GPRS connection.

Have a tinfoil hat, and don't worry about it. Apple won't be doing anything wierd or nefarious with the OS. What you're thinking of with iTunes was the market research that ran when you had the Ministore browser open, where it would tell Apple what you listened to (in a certain way; relatively limited). Turn off the Ministore, it stops telling Apple. What amuses me is that 4/10 people that say "OMG! iTUNES PHONES HOME" also run Last.fm.

They're bugs as much as security issues, and FWIW, if you can point to one exploit for OS X that exists in the wild rather than someone's determined attempts to find bugs, I'll give you a cookie. Apple didn't patch 100+ b(r)owser issues, either - where do you get that figure from?

Phones have poor security. We know this. They can be tapped, bluejacked, have viruses installed (trojans generally), traced, and above all, stolen. iPhone is no better or worse in principle, in practice, I expect it to be slightly better simply because no-one will have found the exploits yet.

Sure it will. Because the hacking community is going to cross-compile an x86 OS designed to run on a machine with an HD to run on an ARM based system with no publically available SDK and no HD. They're also going to get Crossbow to run on it, and fit a 3.5G card.
[Off-topic] OdeeanRDeathshead:
You can trust apple or who ever you like but that does not make your info secure. On wm third party firewalls are available that block access to the internet. I use my mobile device as a respository for everything I know, I want to know that information is safe.

A good example of this is encryption. I have been working for a company this year building call encryption software. On wm users can choose to buy (or write their own) apps to protect themselves as they see fit. On an iphone you take what your given.

I only had one thing to say about the price and that was for you to wait and proove me wrong. Even if the price is low your data plan will probably be prohibitive. The reason the figure of $950 sound good to me is that the att cost is a subsidized price. They are making money off the data. I have heard figures like $2000 in total for a 2 year contract. If the device is to be sold without the supporting cross subsidy of a plan then the price must be substancially higher. Many comprable devices have a price around that point. Are you suggesting that apple is willing to loose money on the iphone or that they will NEVER sell it outright?

I retract the comment about 100 browser bugs. I misread an article, it was referring to a total of 100 bug fixes in general so far this year.

Eventually a phone carrier is going to want to put their own software on an iphone. That is were I am guessing the potential for leaked api's and tools will be. Even without that, I have confidence in the ability of humans to hack anything.

I am not anti iphone. I am anti closed system.
[Off-topic] RichardKAthena:
And you're not unaware that you take what you're given when you purchase the iPhone. No-one holds a gun to your head and says "YOU MUST HAVE iPhone!"

No. It. Isn't.

Let's get this absolutely and totally clear.

The iPhone costs $499/$599. That is what it costs. It is ONLY supported by AT&T, and you are required to activate the phone with a contract of 2 years, and yes, the contracts are expensive IMO. However, so is the contract I have with T-Mobile here. In $ terms, I spend $90/month on 1GB (Unlimited) data, and an allowance of 900 minutes OR 1800 texts (2 texts used = 1 minute less, in case you can't figure that out yourself).

Apple's stubborn business model - NO SUBSIDY - means they needed a carrier. AT&T have a crap reputation and poor customer base. They needed a compelling product. AT&T agreed to Apple's terms despite them not being the industry norm. The data plans are expensive because providing data is not cheap; you need a lot of customers to make the investment in infrastructure worthwhile.

Apple does not lose money on the iPhone. The iPhone BOM is $250 or so. Each iPhone has a 50% margin not including retailer cut and R&D costs.

Forget everything you know about how phones and plans are traditionally sold. I don't know how to get this through to you, it's not like it hasn't been stated over and over again in pretty much every published article about the iPhone - it is not adhering to a traditional mobile phone business model. Understand?

Including a month of destructive testing in order to really eliminate a lot of bugs, many of which were bugs, and not security weaknesses or exploits. How many bugs has MS had to sort out in the same period, I wonder... I know I seem to get at least 2 fixes every couple of days on my Parallels XP Pro SP 2 installation, but I haven't been counting, just going "Oh, it's installing more patches" when I shutdown XP.

I agree that it will undoubtedly be hacked. Which is the point at which I go "what's the point?". The hardware is not compelling. Okay, it is half the price of an Ameo for 8GB without the Microdrive, but it also loses a lot of other features; hack it, and the USP of the iPhone - the user interface - will undoubtedly be the first part to go.

How it pans out in the UK will be interesting - if it even comes here. Our mobile phone industry is rather more established and our consumers have very definite expectations. Apple's most successful model IMO would be to sell the device activated for any network or to work with T-Mobile. However, they want a consistent retail price for it, and I think that simply won't work here.

That, and we're all fully aware of 3G and want it. No 3G is the iPhone's biggest stumbling block in any market, IMO.
[Off-topic] c0wb0ycliche:
The iPhone is pretty bad.

Yeah it looks cool, physically and on screen. But the things it lacks are just absurd.

No MMS? Maybe it's just me, but I live for MMS and know countless other people who do as well. I'm always getting and sending pictures and video clips back and forth with friends.

No 3G? I realize that this has been known for awhile... but that doesn't change the fact that it's absurd. As far as I know you also can't tether (not that you'd want to without 3G) but that's something else that I personally do frequently and know many others who do as well.

No IM client? I remember my Nokia 3100 having AIM on it. Years ago.

Broken browser and keyboard? Sure it might be cool to have the shrunken down Safari actoin going on, but truth be told... it will be exactly like the Deepfish beta. No Flash, no AJAX, no plugins. And the on screen keyboard that you can't really operate with two fingers... come on.

The list goes on and on... non replaceable battery that dies after 300 charges, no custom ringtones, no ability to change the memory (8 GB might seem like a lot now, but they just released 4 GB SD cards... so a year, two years from now?) etc. etc. etc.

And the pricing... people can say it's somehow a different pricing model but it's not. Just because AT&T (my carrier lol) doesn't say the iPhone is $799 before activation, doesn't mean that it's different pricing model. It is. You could get an 8525, with new activation, from Amazon for $150. The iPhone is a rip off.

I think the opposite from what most people are saying. If the iPhone wasn't from Apple, the critical conclusion would be that it's a pretty piece of crap.

And as far as the stability of WM that's been brought up in this thread... I can honestly say, I've had three WM devices in the last couple years, and when I didn't **** with them (e.g. reflash, install hacked apps, etc.) I had no problems whatsoever.
[Off-topic] shogunmark:
This is a very true statement that alot of people seem to forget...
[Off-topic] RichardKAthena:
All valid points IMO, with the exception of the pricing. You will be able to go into an Apple store and buy the iPhone for $499/$599 and take it home.

There is no subsidy. The iPhone is not a $799 device. I wish it was, it would undoubtedly be better.

You know what I think happened?

I think Steve wanted to sell the iPhone as a SIM-free device, ready for people to use, but needed to get it into the hands of the carriers for them to open up the data he wanted to support the iPhone's ultimate destiny - to allow you to use the internet FULLY on your handset, which means... buying iTMS material on the go.

Verizon etc. were all making plans for their own competing music download stores.

Obviously letting Apple have what they wanted; or letting the customers have what Apple wanted to promise, would make this an expensive exercise in futility - Apple undoubtedly wanted unfettered access to the net, and the carriers (sensibly) saw that this would result in iTMS downloads to the phone and no revenue stream for them.

So the subsidy, as such, is that AT&T get to hang onto the $400 or so they'd normally kick back on a handset, in exchange for giving customers the open network Apple wanted them to have access to.

Just opinion and speculation, mind.

I also largely agree about WM being stable as long as you don't futz with it, but I don't wholly agree. My Ameo needed a couple of soft resets when new just randomly, and my SPV M5000 crashed rather frequently with the messaging application built in before I upgraded to WM6.

No MMS is utterly baffling. I am assuming they want you to use email. And probably use .Mac in one form or another.