yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
OK so we have established that moto/vzw will be motivated to allow unlock when it would make them more money than it would cost them. What about if it gains them loads of excellent PR? What if we attacked it from the angle of "future developers" that are being held back because they can't unlock the device they have so they can learn mobile development and possibly change the world / develop the next big thing / improve themselves. And they can't afford the "dev" edition phones that they have to pay full price for. Maybe a social media campaign with a tagline like "unleash the developers of tomorrow " and #unleashtheDOT ? We all know a simple rallying cry can bring people in who may not fully understand but know enough to know it's a good thing and if it spreads far enough (and things that could help people - especially young people - learn tend to spread) they will have to respond.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
Absolutely! the whole #unlockthedroids thing kind of fell flat. so did the petition. Then Mofo happened and everyone became content. Personally, I like the angle. I do see a couple of caveats within trying to get them to unlock subsidized phones that will likely prove insurmountable, but I do have a background in media production...

[ 5 year old watching Dad play Angry Birds...Mom calls dad into other room...Kid A picks up phone/starts to press buttons/is delighted when the UI responds. Accidentally stumbles into About Phone and presses Build Number 7 times. Mouths word/ "Developer?" ..

[scene fades, camera centered, zooming in to the word "Developer"...

[Camera tight, zoomed, scrolls through 10 calander years with glimpses of (Moto if ya ask me) phones and android wearables as double frame images spliced in, seasons, and typical holidays meshed in as well.] Kid A, now 15, runs out to the mailbox and grabs a box out of it.

Runs inside the house and pulls out components for Moto Ara-esque modular. Kid A assembles phone in a few swift movements. Then places it on the table. He says, "Wake up."

[The phone speeds through an intense boot ani for 3 seconds, then halts]

[The phone projects on the wall the homescreen, and is navigated by the hand the kids watch is on with swipes in the air. Kid A smiles sinisterly as he loads Angry Birds. ]

[Black screen with white text: "The Developers of tomorrow are taking their first steps in Android today. The possibilities are endless if these minds can grow these seeds into something more."

[secondary scene of 2020]

Kid A goes to mailbox, opens it up. Runs inside. Pulls out block phone. Swipes (manually) through screens. Tries to change colors, and a big lock and skull/crossbones pops up. NOT ALLOWED!! in bright red letters. kid throws phone in drawer. (with Turbo. lol)

#unleashtomorrow

#droiddoesntdev

ha ha. i am only partially kidding, man. this is doable.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] Technogen:
The PR of it wouldn't matter to most people. Last time I saw something on it the average user has downloaded 6 apps to their phone, most pull run with what ever the phone has installed on it. So in the end people just won't care if devs can do something or not. This is just the sad reality of it.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
You don't attack it from the standpoint of what devs can do but from the standpoint of young people learning - also people in general learning a new skill that could change their lives - this policy of locking things down is preventing people from learning and may be holding back the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] TheSt33v:
I love vanilla android. I hated my S4 until I figured out how to put vanilla on it. The only reason why I decided to get a Turbo knowing that the bootloader was locked was because it's basically vanilla. I wish more phones were vanilla. So I won't be yelling at Motorola anytime soon, but that's just me.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
a) edited crappy rough theoretical draft just to prove a point

b)
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
How about this edit

5yo grabs dads phone and starts playing with it

Dad jokes about him being "better with it than I am! "

Text or voice over says "we all know that kid that learns best by doing - that little genius that figures things out by trial and error "

Fast forward to 10yo getting phone/tablet/whatever for birthday/christmas and dad saying "maybe now you will leave mine alone"

Scene of him finding developer mode

Browsing a forum and reading a development website

Scene of him at 15 putting together the modular device as mentioned but keeping an eye on a computer from which he grabs a module to install right before powering on. (showing that he developed the software)

Final cut of him grown with a plate on his desk that says CEO and him pulling out one of the devices he played with earlier.

Text / voice-over "but today oem and carrier policy prevents him from learning"

Cut back to browsing forums and zoom to "all the carrier versions are locked down"

End with something like "let's not keep the inventors of tomorrow locked up - #unlocktomorrow "

Edit:

We may need to open a new thread in a more general Android forum.

Also I wonder if we can get any big time developers with large social media followings to help.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] Technogen:
Really I could see T-mo getting behind this since so many of their phones aren't locked down, but even they have locked down phones. Still have no "reason" for carriers to do it, a catchy video is nice and all but it doesn't give a "why". Note I'm all for it, its just I am see this from the companies' point, part of why I sad T-mo would do it because it's different.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
The why would be pr - if we could get thousands of 30 something moms who think their teenager is a tech genius because they "fix my internet" to protest vzw and AT&T "keeping them from learning" it would be a huge PR thing to do this. Companies always want good PR because good PR attracts new customers.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
lol. man. exactly. everyone's kid who knows how to use settings is a genuis. ive been *that* genuis to some before.

[MENTION=1906173]techogen[/MENTION] I feel ya on playing Devil's advocate to fully evaluate the plausibility. I think Winston is onto a great angle, though. im already b deep in Tmobile people om twitter trying to get me to ditch VZW. Wouldnt be hard to make that jump. Mind you, i dont pretend for a moment their network comes close to vzw. but they would probably even fund a scholarship or two to get people dev'ing.

Edit: I plan on featuring Turbo as the locked-down p.o.s. phone in anything i do, so it *can* be relavent. lol Robut, perhaps? Burto? Torbu? i will have an extra back in a few days. ;)
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
Just show the front of the turbo - no case on it - most techies will recognize it and anyone who doesn't would not understand the significance anyways. Also we need to focus on the whole spectrum not just vzw (they are the worst)

Also might need to consider using a girl for the focus - vzw has been running a on and off campaign about getting girls in science and engineering and about not holding them back.

Edit: looked it up - it is under #inspirehermind
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] seshaz:
Came from working at T-Mobile as market director and had Tmo service loved the fact if rooting and flashing etc and had a lot of customers that were also into the same now I work for Verizon in a similar position and have Verizon service and am pretty disappointed in the locked down phones but have not had a single person I met even mention anything about rooting a phone. The % of vzw customers that like modding their phone is such a small % that I seriously doubt vzw really cares honestly. The whole take my money elsewhere doesn't really matter anyway considering 85% of our revenue is from large corps so the single customer isn't very important which sucks but its true.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] TechSavvy2:
You sure did point to Moto with the concept of Dev Edition devices quite a bit there......but AGAIN overlook the fact that the Dev Edition device is also 100% up to Verizon to support it. Guess who's network the Dev Edition phone is designed specifically for and who has to sign off on it? You state facts over and over in the replies of that post that I've already specified. No, verizon does not care about your money for your bootloader or rants thereof.

Go ahead and try and shred VZW in social media. Shred them on XDA, and to all your friends that you provide support to. Them come back and let us know how much you accomplished.

If you want a Nexus 6, then buy a Nexus 6. I don't see anything holding you back. The device is being offered.

The fact that I'm a realist about what VZW is going to do regarding bootloaders does NOT show in any way that I don't care about BL unlock. I'm a software developer for a very large OEM, why in the world would I not care about it?

This thread is getting so far outside the scope of how business models actually work that its almost ridiculous even attempting a reply....
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
Ha ha. Yup. Enterprise clients make the world go 'round. The robots on Twitter are fun though. I asked Tmobile (without saying anything at all negative) how their coverage was and had VZW twatterbots asking how they could help BC they didn't want to see me go. Perhaps that planted a nefarious deception. Lol.

I know they don't care. I just had thought it would be interesting to create a movement as a vehicle of change.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
Good points man. You're right. I can grab a Nexus and abandon the Turbo. It is just such a waste of great hardware. Not to mention, that is what the majority users like us have done.

On a side note, the annoying quote crap was more of a joke. (1st reply to you points this out) I had deleted it, but it saved, so when I saw it was there, again, I thought it more of a joke than insult. Same team, same team. My bad dude.

I like the campaign and love your ideas [MENTION=1937895]hotrodwinston[/MENTION] . we can discuss it further if you like. We will need the means to convince others it is a worthwhile cause. But if our own here aren't onboard, we really aren't going to get anywhere. Your idea is better than mine, though. ;)

Even if all of the root/ROM community is onboard, it will still take a very concerted effort to yield a drop of attention.

Ultimately, a single drop of water in a pond doesn't do much. A storm, however, can create some significant waves.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] meskes:
I bought this because it's as close to AOSP as I can get, without actually getting a Nexus. If you don't want the actual Android experience, get a damned Galaxy series device. Gah.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
[MENTION=3836686]kitcostantino[/MENTION] I'm game. What do we need to do first?
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
im playing johnny appleseed. ;) g+ +kit costantino
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
I think I shall join you - mysterious hash tags for resharing.

Edit: I just don't do subtle very well - plant your seeds - I'm dropping mature trees.

G+ Dustin Wiley
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
well said. #timber
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
I'm slamming out all I can - everyone that is willing please help us - a drop in the ocean isn't noticed but a storm will catch the attention of all. Spread #unlockthefuture #unleashtomorrow and #inspiretheirminds.

If we can get enough attention on this thousands will see it in the trending and a push can be made to get the attention of carriers and oem's.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
[MENTION=1937895]hotrodwinston[/MENTION] i have been doing this sort of thing on twitter and g+ for a while (since March on and off). The sad reality is people dont initially help bc they either principally disagree bc of the notion that we should all just buy dev devices (as if we can all run out and buy a new phone on a moments notice) or are right on board, but dont want to mess with it bc they dont think it will change anything. I dont hold it against anyone. Some people are just passive also. Others have the mentality that we should basically lemon dump and sell the Turbo to buy the Whale. Personally, I dont like playing broker when i have a phone with such a horrible resale. I wouldnt plan on xda drumming up much support. sad, but true. again, i dont blame anyone here for that bc i understand the ideology. i may not agree, but i see where they are coming from.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] adrynalyne:
I look at it a little differently. I know Moto doesn't enforce the bootloader lock by choice, but instead by carrier demand. Moto is not a strong enough company to make their own demands either. So in essence, you would be asking Motorola to forfeit a business partnership in lieu of allowing all bootloaders to be unlockable.

That would cost Moto more money than the minority user who boycotts due to a locked bootloader.

Your real target should be the carriers.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] ChazzMatt:
Agreed that Motorola is not strong enough to compel Verizon to unlock bootloaders sold by Verizon . But Motorola somehow sold Verizon-compatible "Developer Edition" Moto X phones straight from the Motorola website

With bootloader that can be unlocked. So, it has been done and can be done by Motorola, if they really wish.

Motorola Moto X 32GB Developer Editon - Verizon + GSM Unlocked, 4G LTE, Black/Woven White

http://www.amazon.com/Motorola-Moto-32GB-Developer-Editon/dp/B00QB3ZF00

______

Moto X Developer Edition vs. the carrier models: Which should you get?

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...he-carrier-models--which-should-you-get-.html
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] adrynalyne:
That won't appease the complaints though. People want unlocked phones, subsidized.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] ChazzMatt:
No one in this forum has asked for that. They are willing to pay full price, forgo all warranties even. Just let them do it, is what they have asked. Less than 2 years ago it was being allowed, with the Motorola Developer Edition -- sold from Motorola website -- for a VERIZON model. That is all they are asking for, bring it back.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] adrynalyne:
Thats not what i read. I read the original tweet and it was along the lines of boycotting Motorola unless they provided a bootloader unlock. Not for a new device, not for a developer device, but THIS device. We already know there are other unlockable Motorola phones.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
my phone isnt subsidized, brother. ;) likely bc [MENTION=3250376]ChazzMatt[/MENTION] was one of the very few that tried to help with the petition in march, he knows this well. i didnt mean to boycott moto. moto + verizon, on the other hand was the aim. aka, Droid devices, Moto devices on VZW (and att). i agree completely with the carriers being the target. moto is included bc they have the power to make a phone call and say to Verizon "look, what will this hurt? These are loyal users/customers. these are the guys working in your stores, writing online, tweeting, +1'ing. these are the guys that helped you when you had no iphone.

edit- and yes [MENTION=2995749]adrenalyne[/MENTION] i could have been far clearer on that. ;)
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
Neither is mine. I just want to be able to do what I want with the device that I own. Is that wrong? People should have the option of unlocking their device - understanding that it will void warranty - the only way root can cost carriers money is people using it to get tethering on old unlimited plans. That is very few now - they have been very successful in getting people to switch off those plans. There is no reason I can't unlock my device other "we say so".
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] adrynalyne:
Think about this though. What differentiates a fully paid for Turbo and a subsidized one?

It was a rhetorical question. There is no difference and thats why it won't happen. You are wanting for the carriers to change their business model to allow unlocking for paid off devices, and punishing Motorola for it. So we are back to my original comment--you need to be going after the carriers, not the OEM.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
ultimately, it makes no sense. the only claim i can give any viability to is that support costs are the reason. dummies flashing wrong files, breaking crap being wreckless. tethering is a issue too considering the people smart enough to keep unlimited are people like us. the only other possibility is the growth model. the carriers need us to cash out our phones every two years. i mean, who here kept a droid 1 longer than any other android bc of all we could do? (i know i did). ultimately, though, no one has become a rom developer without an unlocked phone. that is the aim. look at how much innovation happened with the d1, OG Dinc, and omap 4 series. bootloaders being unlocked or circumvented played a paramount role in that.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
So let's go after carriers then. Pushing oems is just a way to put a little sideways pressure on carriers anyway and is not effective.

Though we do want oems aware of this push.

And if it is done thru the carrier then they can be sure that it is not a subsidized phone and be sure to note that you get no tech support and no warranty - which is fair.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] adrynalyne:
I wouldn't even bother with a little pressure.

Motorola's client is Verizon (in this case anyway), and they are going to do what their client is paying them for. A client of a client isn't going to change that. The only thing it might do is make them aware of the desire for more developer editions. However if that jeopardizes the client relationship, they will not do it. Motorola doesn't sell a lot as it is, and the developer editions are a minuscule part of those sales.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
I can see your point. The irony is, the people that want bootloaders unlocked and would keep those phones longer would likely be inclined to buy the next, latest, greatest if bl unlock was something they could rely on. It is beneficial to the carrier in that regard. the business model they have in place has resulted in me signing no contract since my Omnia, and looking at the droid razr hd, maxx and turbo upon their respective releases as phones i didnt want. The dev community made the xt926 a phone i wanted to own. the Dev Edition of the Maxx did the same there. (despite having little actual development outside of the moto x branch.)

the Turbo is the first one the android community may not get past. [MENTION=2376614]jcase[/MENTION] is a damn rockstar of security and even he walked away from it. the Turbo just sets a precedent, man. [MENTION=5697730]maiko1[/MENTION] has helped us immensely with Mofo Root. it still is not what we need to make these phones completely and utterly our own, but between that and [MENTION=6076132]computerfreek274[/MENTION] 's images, the Turbo is far better. While I am utterly grateful to these guys, I also just principally think it should be different.

[MENTION=2995749]adrenalyne[/MENTION] your support would help immensely. if there is an angle with which you *would* be interested in trying to get the carriers attention in order to allow Moto and other OEMs to change policy, or an approach you think more viable, im all ears.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] ChazzMatt:
It was being done. It can be done again. Developer Edition, Moto X, Verizon. Sold from Motorola website.

You are ignoring THAT GLARING FACT to argue that Verizon won't change their policies, etc. They did change them! Already, to allow that on the Moto X.

So, it can be done with a new flagship phone like the Droid Turbo or Droid Turbo 2015 or whatever they want to call the new one coming this year. Droid Turbo Developer Edition. It's been done and can be done again. Doesn't need Verizon to "change" anything.

That's what the "pressure" is about -- to suggest to Motorola/Verizon to offer that again this year and future years.

It's called shoot for the stars and get the moon. If you ask for EVERYTHING, you may end up with what you REALLY want, which is just a specific item. ;) It's a business strategy.

A "Developer Edition" just like in the recent past would satisfy everyone.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] adrynalyne:
Thats an interesting look at it, but I think its more in the interest of the carrier that people stay with their phones for shorter periods, and extend whatever contract or deal they have going on by trading up. Like car dealerships, they rather keep the payments flowing than see them eventually dry up, removing their control over you because your device is paid for. The carrier themselves do not care which device you get, they merely care what plan you are getting and how much you are willing to pay. With OEMs, its more of the same with planned obsolescence. I know that people such as you and I are loyal to brands that are developer friendly, but at the same time, I know we aren't even a blip on the radar of overall client counts for OEMs or carriers. There are also those who pay for those devices outright, but in the US, they are far in the minority, just like we as a society are addicted to credit cards.

What I do like seeing is the new model of less expensive phones bought outright that allow you to use whatever carrier and you alone are responsible for the hardware. The phones need to be divorced from the carriers in the US. Until this model continues to grow big enough, I don't think we will ever see an end to bootloader locks and other security measures.

Edit: I don't know how I would be able to make a difference. I have friends that work for Verizon and the apathy is real with that company.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
I honestly think the amount of people that will keep their phones longer if unlocked would be offset by the techies that would be inspired to buy new devices because they know they can unlock and truly own their phone plus the small percentage that will brick their phones and have to get new ones.

Unlock has no real downsides anymore for carriers - it's just old habit fueled by fears of losing money that just don't apply anymore.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] kitcostantino:
believe it or not [MENTION=2995749]adrenalyne[/MENTION] , people listen to you. at the very least, what you have to say. in fact if the above @ (mentioned) people were onboard, it would help to gain momentum. while apathy may be prevalent at VZW it is also present here. We can all agree bl unlock is awesome and phones and carriers should, in fact be divorced, but nonetheless, few are willing to take action when they see the devs arent putting in their efforts for or believe in 'the cause' The mentality of 'these guys that know their s#&* say it wont work so it wont' kicks in. i would love to think all people think and act independently, but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, there are people others look to for what they should or shouldn't do. (not as bad as The Joneses, that movie with David Duchovny/Demi Moore, but it exists. ) you have clout here. many others do as well. no one is going to say kitcostantino is doing this so maybe its a good idea. but a few people here could make a huge impact.
[Verizon Motorola Droid Turbo General] hotrodwinston:
https://plus.google.com/102840154205623212237/posts/6nkZRwbENsV