yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Thanks [MENTION=3259959]reggiexp[/MENTION], removed.

[MENTION=1857787]NeoMatrixJR[/MENTION] thanks for the update. Sucks though, well it's better they fix the bugs rather than letting early adopters suffer them all. Re. keyboard I don't trust anyone to know at this point until stock comes in. Hope they're wrong ...
[Windows 8 General] NeoMatrixJR:
I don't know...depending on how bad the errors are. If it works and they don't need to make hardware changes (and I'd hope they don't at this point or we're going to be waiting a while) I'd almost rather get my tablet and update it later. But I can understand why they wouldn't want to do that. There's going to be a lot more people that would be pissed about getting a tablet with issues. But again...I'm tablet-less at the moment so I just want something. Maybe I'll step down and borrow mom's old ASUS TF101 for now....

Wow...newegg flash has the Lenovo Miix 2 11 w/ keyboard for $499. Tempting...No USB 3 and only FHD though. Core i5 & SSD though. I wonder if a 4th gen i5 > core m?
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
I do not see decent modern manufacturers.

I do not use closed systems, such as m$ software, since at least 1998.

And I do not recommend android system now, also, that is just can look like open system, but in really it is something like honeypot. Where, for example, google play is far enough from the greatest evil :). Yep, android can even mask itself, under some independent more or less clear distributions, but in really it is the jast the same - only on new more sophisticated spiral turn.

Given the above, and that, if we even can check open code now, we can not check hardware, certainly.

Early I could choose the components for my desktop, personal computer. Now manufacturers try push me into the trap. Given, that everything is clear with the other, but what is wrong with Chinese manufacturers? Or, simply saying, if they do not preset w..s, they do not get processors from Intel? :)

I do not interesting in bright and meaningless advertisement pictures of new devices. Understandable, that setting open system on theme device with Intel system on a chip is more likely. But where is the video or screen pictures of device startup process? Where the first advertisement string, that must contain only one thing - that I can buy device without any preinstalled system and set some open, free, by my choice, as in past on desktop computer? Where the possibility to change parts in my personal tablet computer, as in past with desktop computers? So, it is remain now to look on ARM devices side, where some of such devices start appears.

Dear, Intel, in spite of all your contributions to the open source, where is in really good new, clear from stock devices? ;) Dear, not only Chinese manufacturers - while all so, all this tonns of new beautifull persoanl spies may remain in your storages. I am not interesting anymore to waite, while you debug your, so called, software. I just will vote with my money :) .

By the way, dear, Intel, probably, in this time and exactly this will allow to say to x86 - goodbye.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Could be hardware issues like charging problems, drivers not working, BIOS bugs (worst-case causing bricking), screen not waking, black holes opening and swallowing our solar system, Harry Shearer quitting The Simpsons... I could do without any of those :). Don't forget, you don't want to have to ship it back to China, ever.

I've lost count of the gens, but the benchmarks show that Core-M's are somewhere between recent dual-core i3 and i5 (sometimes even approaching the i5). At least if the thermal solution is good. Sounds a pretty good deal if it suits you (I need USB3 and don't like the 16:9 aspect).
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
I respect your opinion (I've been Windows-only like forever). I'm not clear though how you expect to be able to change the internals of tablets. They are designed to be as slim as possible, as such they cannot easily be made modular (not impossible, but more expensive and size will suffer a little). And of course it's much simpler/cheaper to build dedicated devices. That also allows integration of various peripherals into fewer chips, again making things smaller and drivers more reliable. And I expect that also makes things like booting faster, and power consumption lower, as the whole system is built from the ground up for mobile usage, and tweaked mainly by Intel, giving likely less bugs, compatibility problems and better quality drivers then mixing and matching components from different vendors.

Sure, it would be a big bonus if you could at least change the battery easily. And maybe tablets will get more modular for some parts (eg. swap the camera out), upgrade the memory etc. But at the moment everyone wants to be as slim and lightweight as possible, that's the priority. Once the technology gets too slim, they can make things modular.
[Windows 8 General] NeoMatrixJR:
Got this from Pipo's Facebook account last night:
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Great.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Pipo store are still saying keyboard included. Replied asking about what exactly the 3G dongle is (W3 Ultrastick or something else):

"Onc eit is in stock, we will release it on our website at the first time. PIPO W8 do comes with the Pipo keyboard. Sorry but the PIPO Official has not released the PIPO W8 is not built-in 3G network, but it support 3G Dongle. You need to buy the 3G Dongle by your own."
​
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
Processors comparison.

I use cpuboss site to comparison. For example, Lenovo Miix 2 with 4th Generation Intel Core i5 4202Y vs PIPO W8 Intel Core M-5Y10, please, see in Attachment.

And do not look onto KDE, please, case it is just some tempoary machine, from I wrote now.
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
Modular personal computer.

_gl, thank you for your answer. I agree with you here, certainly.

The priority in the design should not be profit at the expense of monolithic of products, but user convenience due to the modularity of products. For example, the main interesting claimed advantage of PIPO W8 can consider 10.1 Inch Retina Capacitive Screen with 2560*1600 resolution. In principle different situation, anyone could purchase a required separate screen module, motherboard module with SOC, memory module, power module and required interfaces modules. Then connect all this tougether. Of course, it is requires standardization. Which manufacturers will be resist.

Yep, you right. But you describe current situation. And creators of this sutuation is manufacturers, not customers. In really, this is not right situation. We constantly see, what it brings. Moreover, as usually, manufacturers have possibility to goes further, due customers. Everything should be the opposite. We, customers must define situation, what is more convenient for us - case we pay.

Heh :), Certainly. Agree here. Perhaps, in 10-20 years, currently estimated rather powerful computers, in size of a business card or less will not cost anything. However, the main priority already now must be not the combination, for example, of speed, size or weight, but respect from the manufacturer side for the rights of the customer by a fairly large number of criteria. Thus, the product must be honest with the customer. For example, guarantee the same privacy. With what modern manufacturers have serious problems.

Regarding modular phones, tablets - probably you know, Google working on Ara. There are exists and other simpler, for example, Click ARM One, HN1 Modules Tablet.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Sure, but we know what kind of compatiblity nightmare that can be on PCs. Mobile devices try to be 'simple', that's was most people want from them. Buy it, use it. Having to find drivers or figuring out why hardware A and B sometimes don't play nice together or (worst-case) bluescreen/crash doesn't really work on a phone or tablet. They just have to work and be painless/fun to use.

I agree though, a modular option would be cool and can be done. But we're in the early stages of mobile, once innovation slows down I'm sure we'll see more modularity.

I disagree, due to most people wanting mobile things to 'just work' (which is what Apple did so brilliantly). Imagine if you had to worry about making the hardware of an iPhone work well together, nobody except power users wants this (that's why most people don't jailbreak either). I'm a desktop power-user (that's why I like the W3 and W8, as they are higher-end proper desktop-capable machines) and I run my own programs on them and customize a lot. But most people don't need that to do basic browsing and watch movies.

I agree, but I think we're unfortunately in the minority. If everybody wanted modularity or ethics, we'd get it. Many people don't even care about non-replaceable batteries 'coz they plan to buy the next model before it runs out. Mobile is in the early crazy-fast stage of innovation, it will slow down and then people may want something they can upgrade, rather than sell on every time.

Yes those are fair points. Right now it's just about (unfortunately) disposable technology & performance, I do hope people think more about the social and ethical implications at some point.

Yep I saw a few things about the Ara, it's a nice idea. But if it ends up costing a bit more, weighing a bit more, and maybe sightly less powerful than a closed solution, most people will pass it by (right now). Will be interesting how it turns out though.
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
_gl, sorry, by the way, for my slight deviations from your theme and for my english. But we have interesting discussion.

In really not only modern phones and tablets have modular construction already. But this "modularity" is just with what working manufacturer's engineers inside design centers.

Yep. But personal home computers of 80's is not the same, as personal mobile devices in 2015, moreover mostly time connected with net. initially, computers was mostly designed from engeneers to engineers. Of course, this does not mean, that computers have to be complicated. But noone still does not know exactly, what means "simple" in terms of most people. Search systems and many other different systems already trying to manipulate the consciousness of people.

Major evolutionary changes make overestimate related to a personal computer. We does not know already, what information collecting from our personal devices, and how it used in most cases. More fun is, when corporations, following the wishes of "simplicity" from most people and own inner reasons, will start integrate elements of artificial intelligence into personal computer operating systems. It can be a lil less fun, for example, if onetime, some artificial joints, mounted to continue increasing longevity, suddenly will start direct legs to some not desired direction :). What do w...s every moment on your personal device? What do android every moment on your personal device? We do not know in really. We does not know even, what additional blocks are integrated on chip and what purposes they are - this chips and blocks are too small :). When you interact with your personal computer - is it still you with your own individuality, or already more or less changed in a certain direction person? In past and now the most important characteristics was the speed of computer. I guess, pretty soon the most important feature will be encryption strength, the force of information protection of the system, which, of course, is related with performance. In these circumstances, it is important to continually critical reevaluate, what corporations silently try to introduce, fully overestimate structure of equipment proposed for the sale, perhaps even from the law level. Something like - manufacturer not have right to releasing information equipment without fully opening its composition to be able to provide a complete check.

This is not customers guilty. This is guilty of manufacturers, that in the pursuit of profit did not want to agree in standards, include software quality.

That's right, I agree.

Yes, but most people usually see just tip of the iceberg. They see only, what they are allowed to see. Once people are awake, but will be too late.

Yep, you totally right.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Good discussion dzp, it's good that people are looking at the bigger picture of technology.

Pipo-store replied about the 3G dongle, but said nothing useful (I guess they don't know yet):

"We will release the 3G dongle that compatiable with the PIPO W8 on our website soon. Zoe"

No confirmation if it's the same as W3 etc.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Everbuying seems to show pre-sale extended till the end of the month.

And this site claims:

"The retail package also includes a licensed version of Windows 8.1 and one year subscription of Office 365. Buyers who make their purchase now and in the next few weeks will also get a detachable keyboard cover for free. With the keyboard attached, you can use the PIPO Work-W8 as an ultra-book. The Work-W8 is now on sale on JD.com]
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
The list with similar devices of one price range - specifications may be wrong, or not full.

PiPO W8 10.1" 2560x1600, Intel Core-M 5Y10, 4GB DDR3L 64GB EMMC for now/128GB, win 8.1, 10 000 mAh, 2/5 mp, USB 3.0 USB 2.0 OTG, microSD, audio out, HDMI, keyboard?, 428 EUR?.

?Livefan S10 10.1" 2560x1600, Intel Core-M 5Y10c, 4GB 64GB, win, microSD, USB 3.0, HDMI, keyboard, 480 USD?.

Onda V116w 11.6" 1920x1080, Intel Core-M 5Y10, 4GB DDR3L 64GB/128GB, win 8.1, 2/x mp, USB 3.0, HDMI, keyboard, 493 EUR?.

Vido W11X 11.6" 1366x768, Intel Core-M 5Y10c, 4GB 128GB, win, USB 3.0, HDMI, keyboard, xxx EUR.

Cube i7 11.6" 1920x1080, Intel Core-M 5Y10c, 4GB 128GB, win8.1, 5 000 mAh, microUSB 3.0, microSD, 3G 4G LTE, microHDMI, 566 EUR?.

?Cube i7-CM 11.6" 1920x1080, Intel Core-M 5Y10c, 4GB 64GB, Ubuntu/Linux or win8.1, 5 000 mAh, microUSB 3.0, microSD, 3G WCDMA/GSM microSIM, microHDMI, 400 USD?.

Ramos M12 Intel Core M 5Y70, win8.1, 8 000 mAh, microUSB 3.0, microHDMI, xxx EUR.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Thanks. Just looked at the i7-CM, I think it only has USB 2 OTG, not USB3? I need USB3 so that's no good. Also don't like the 16:9 shape. SSD and price are good though, not available yet AFAIKS.

The Livefan S10 is interesting (full-size USB3, same 2560 res as W8, but smaller battery), but doesn't seem for sale (well, Tinydeal list it as 'sold out', at a stupid price).

It's a shame the larger screens are all 1920 16:9 (I wouldn't consider the W11X 1366 at all, if that's correct). A larger 2560x1600 would be interesting. Hell I'd actually prefer the Surface's 3:2 aspect, perfect for photos, but 16:10 will do :).

Any news on the W8?
[Windows 8 General] BigsyBiggins:
Yeah the w8 seems like the first Chinese core m with a half decent aspect ratio... still I don't know if I should hold out for the v919 core m onda.

4:3 would be perfect I'm just not 100% confident onda can fit a core m into an ipad clone and have it cooled properly (ie no throttling).
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
Yep, my list is quite crude. If you do not mind, I will adjust the list and placed here to evaluate PiPO W8.

Specifications may be wrong, or not full.

It is exist information, that Cube i7 can burn, thus, probably, Cube i7-CM, also.

More exact specifications of Cube i7.

Cube i7 aluminium case black and dark blue color, 11.6" 1 920 x 1 080 16:9 TFT IPS glossy 190 ppi multi touch 10 points visible angle 178 deg, Intel Core-M 5Y10c Broadwell 14 nm, core/threads 2/4, frequency 0.8-1.5 Ghz up to 2.0 GHz turbo, L3 cache 4 MB, graphics Intel HD 5300, GPU frequenc.y 0.3/0.8 GHz, 4 GB DDR3L 1.6 GHz, SSD 64/128 GB SATA3 0.6 GB/s, TDP 4.5 Watt, Ubuntu/win 8.1, DirectX/OpenGL 11.2/4.3, 7.4 V 5 000 mAh ~10 hours, 2/5 mp, dual speakers, mic, audio out 3.5 mm, microUSB 3.0, USB-OTG, USB 2.0 x 2 in keyboard, microSD, Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g/n, Bluetooth 4.0, can have 2G 850/900/1800/1900 MHz 3G 900/2100 MHz 4G LTE FDD B1/B3/B7 TDD 38/39/40/41, microSIM, microHDMI, G-sensor, 297 x 180 x 9.1 mm, 840 g, from 428 EUR.

Cube i7-CM a cheaper version of Cube i7. Without 4G LTE? Stated 362 EUR. Stated microUSB 3.0, also. And, yep - not available for now.

My opinion - microUSB is more preferably. By the way, firstly I thought, that Livefan S10 and PiPO W8 - just different names of the same model. Now, such things, mostly like designer on reference board :) . I agree, we must exclude Livefan S10. But it is possible to include interesting unit Teclast X1 Pro 12.2" 2 560 x 1 600 for 675 EUR and, possible, PiPO K2.

Someone let customers to build their own configurations on modular :) basis, soon. You will be able to choose the screen :) .

Sorry buddy, nope. Wait, just, that W8 began to enter the market, but in really - no :).

Moreover, I recommend to wait some new devices yet. Intel must finish sold first 5Y10/5Y10с, get good exit of 5Y31, 5Y51, 5Y71, start Skylake :) .
[Windows 8 General] cutterjohn:
If you're in the US, Bestbuy is apparently duping their Dell Venue 11 Pro 7140s for $499. Add a 10% off movers coupon or ebay discount(yes they're on ebay as well) and it's $450. You might be able to get some other discounts on ebay to get it down to $400, but I just purchased at a b&m.

5y10/12864GB m.2 type 2260 SSD/4GB Ram/1920x1080 battery(36Wh) is replaceable as well as wifi card and ssd and there is an empty slot for a cell card. [EDIT3] also comes with the Dell slim tablet keyboard.. it's meh... works in a pinch but if you want a better keyboard get the mobile keyboard, more like a regular notebook AND it has a 20Wh battery in it for 56Wh total ~$100. The T300 chi shipped keyboard was junk, and I've not read good things about the Cube i7 keyboard/dock which going out on a limb here I'll bet that Pipo's will be similar/identical. It's also a fixed position deal like the Acer Switches... [/EDIT3]

I like it. I briefly had a T300 chi(5y10c) and it sucked in comparison in every way imaginable.

I just thought that I'd post this as this is a better deal in this case than a china tab OTOH I'm pretty happy with a Teclast x80h which is what started me looking at core m hybrids.

uCenter has(or had) Acer Aspire Switch 12s w/5y10c for $600 too... those had replaceable SSD another m.2 form factor but I forget which dimensions. Not sure if the battery was replaceable on that one or not. Did not like design personally as there is a foldable chunk that stays with the tablet portion and it's BIG(look at the pictures). IIRC the battery is that extra thing(acts as stand, but looked annoying in tablet "mode"), 128GB SSD and 4GB RAM.

[EDIT]

As to 5y10 versions, I doubt that's there's going to be any variation in performance amongst them other than turbo speed max assuming that all implementations have good thermal designs and don't gimp the CPU in BIOS. Why? My 7140 thrashed the T300 chi on battery and AC in most benchmarks. The T300 throttles to ~4.6W TDP or ~1.2GHz CPU max and ~12W TDP and 2GHz on AC.

That said I didn't notice any day-to-day performance differences really, but when I had both I was primarily just light surfing. Also personally, I find 12.5" WAY too BIG for tablet usage... (7140 is ~11" but feels more like 10")

[/EDIT]

[EDIT2]

The 7140 has RAM configured as DUAL channel, the T300 (5y10c) had RAM configured as SINGLE channel, not sure about the Acer. I'm going to guess that china tabs will also be configured SINGLE channel as my x80h was single channel even though the z3735f supports dual. I'm going to guess that the excessively expensive highend T300 has the 8GB configured as dual channel though. (The T300 had a 28Wh battery and I was able to get c. 4h 40m light web browsing from that the 5y71 version is regularly reported lasting 4h or a little less in similar usage, higher res display sucks more power.)

SINGLE channel will mainly affect graphical performance with some less obvious day-to-day usage as long as applications aren't memory intensive.

[/EDIT2]
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
cutterjohn, thank you.

It is another example of why it is necessary to review the responsibilities of manufacturers to customers at law level even. What manufactures set in their devices, what exact chips they set there and of what kind, what spyware :) they integrate in their operational systems - nobody knows. For us, they allow only a bright promotional pictures of devices.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Thanks for that info everyone, will digest later.

I've got the Pipo W3, and the keyboard is pretty good (W8 seems to be the same from the pics). Not perfect, but the magnetic connection works great and is strong, key travel is decent, touch pad tracks mostly OK, not super-sensitive but quite useable. The only annoying for me is that the pad has tap-to-click enabled, even though it has physical left/right buttons, and I've found no way to disable that. Oh and that the folding-style case only really gives you 1.1 viewing angles ('1.1' as folding it the other way gives you a few degrees more).

re. dual channel, from PCs it doesn't make a massive amount of difference right? 10% or something like that? Nice to have sure.

My ideal tab would have a wide-gamut (AdobeRGB) optically bonded 3:2 screen (OLED (yum) or IPS), 10-12", Core-M (or better) with good thermal management, SSD for speed, fast 4-8GB RAM, long battery life (I'd take that over super-slim), usable keyboard case (like the Pipo), USB3 and good build quality.

I prefer a full-size USB3 port (like my W3) - no messing about with dongles, and micro-USB ports seem way more fragile. I dropped my last tablet, a Chinese 'Gadmei E8-3D', only about 60cm - it landed on soft carpet and was fine - but I had the OTG dongle in, and it fell exactly on the connector = broken micro USB port, unfixable (I opened it up and can solder). Oh and Gadmei refused to sell me the small circuit board that holds the connectors so I could fix it myself... sigh.
[Windows 8 General] _gl:
Checked out the Teclast X1 Pro, and a good price on that would be interesting (12.2" 2560x1600 16:10, SSD, big battery, 4GB, 2 x fullsize USB3 ports, 3G/4G etc). It also seems to have a replaceable SSD & modem. But no reseller seems to have it yet, and early reports from China buyers might suggest (not confirmed) that the USB3 ports don't give full speed (if they're just sharing the USB3 bandwidth that's fine, but USB2 speeds would not be acceptable).

Interesting that most of the Core M''s seem to be delayed. My hunch is that they're all suffering from the same major bug (could be the USB3 thing), probably a driver or BIOS issue, and they're all waiting on the same fix.

Also troubling that Teclast decided to Photoshop a thinner bezel than it actually has.
[Windows 8 General] dzp:
Now the price does not match. And yet, I looked recently - from techtablets.com

PLS - not the best possible option.
[Windows 8 General] NeoMatrixJR:
Thanks for the info! Sorry to leave the party before it gets started, but after dropping by my local Best Buy and taking a look I opted to go for the Venue 11 Pro 7140. I compared the FHD on it to a higher rez on the latest Yoga (even higher than the W8) and decided I couldn't tell enough on a small screen to make it a priority. I opted for the Dell (and, somehow I feel dirty owning a Dell....) because of the user-replaceable/upgradable SSD/WiFi/Battery, full-sized USB3, & SSD vs. eMMC. And for $499 it came with the keyboard and is a US supplied & serviceable device. I'm already planning on upgrading from 64Gb as that was never going to be enough and that may add to my cost but I can live with that. Just too bad we're not moving yet as I could have really used that coupon....

So far it's holding up to my expectations. Windows...doesn't quite make a great tablet OS, but on the other hand Windows 8.1 is FAR better on a tablet than a PC/Laptop....

Good luck, and I'll keep watching to see how the W8 performs.