yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] wildbilll:
1. The phone is my property, not the Carriers. I paid them for it and I am entitled to utilize their network for the fee I continue to pay them for access.

2. I have never seen, nor have I had the opportunity to accept or reject an EULA for the operating system software (WM5) that came pre-installed on this phone. I have seen the copyright tab in settings that says the operating system is copyrighted my MS. I am not trying to rebrand the OS.

3. I have never seen any license agreement in any of the WM6 roms.

4. There is no paid upgrade path to WM6.

5. There is no financial harm to the Carrier who sold the me phone, my access to their network is the same with WM6 as it was with WM5.

6. There is no financial harm to MS. They could offer a paid upgrade path, but that would require them to provide the carrier customizations to get WM6 to work on my phone, they would have to provide some support. They are not interested in dealing with me to support WM6. They only want to deal with the device manufacturer, and the device manufacurer only wants to deal with the Carrier.

7. It's a known fact that the 8525 will be offered with WM6 pre-installed. If the Carrier or HTC decides to offer a paid upgrade path then perhaps there might be some truth to the piracy issue. But that is unlikely, if they go that route they effectively prevent HTC from offering follow on updates via their site. Until then we are running beta software. No one is trying to alter the WM6 operating system functionality. Plenty of people run beta tests. Plenty of people try to get existing programs to run on a new OS. Why does MS release beta software? so we can debug it for them. I am helping MS, not hindering them.

8. If anyone is subject to a license agreement, it is HTC and/or the Carrier, not me.

9. If and when WM6 comes out, is not offered as a free upgrade, and I figure out my beta version has a drop dead date, I will have to decide what to do. Until then, I will happily run whatever version of WM6 I can find that interests me.

Additional thought: MS could care less about this. Nobody cares if, say a 8125 is modded to WM6 since it is an old phone (sorry 8125 owners) because the primary reason people will upgrade to a new phone isn't the OS, it's the feature set on the phone, like HSDPA, Bluetooth 2.0, otr whatever is coming down the pipe next.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Zzan:
apples to oranges.

You can purchase both Win XP and Win Vista, and as such you are required to purchase in order to use legally.

You can only get Windows Mobile by purchasing a device that has it installed. You can't just go to the store and pick up a boxed copy of WM5 or 6 and then install it on the device of your choice. You paid for your device, which in turn paid for your Windows Mobile license.

Technically you shouldn't have WM6 until your carrier releases an official rom, and as mentioned it is a form of piracy that we have it now, but it isn't the same as hacking a copy of XP or Vista and installing on multiple machines without buying licenses for those machines.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] over2land:
I too like this thread. I also get a lot of flak from friends and coworkers about this new habit I've got. Truth is, I've been modifying cell phones for years now. This is the first time they are able to harrass me about copyright infringement because of M$'s well known stance on it.

I really DGAF how the line is drawn. Put simply, if it wasn't for XDA and cooked ROMs you guys have, I would never have bought a Hermes-line PPC in the first place. I don't know how many others are in the same boat as me, but I was registered and lurking here, reading for months before I bought my phone. If it wasn't for you guys, I was either holding out for an Iphone, or going with a motorola Maxx.

I'd seen a Cingular 8525 in action with the as shipped ROM, and I couldn't see much of an improvement in that ROM over the 2003 I have on my MPx. Sure, the hardware was better, and you could run more applications, but it was still buggy, and really wasn't too much faster. I almost didn't buy one after my first encounter with one.

Then I saw an actual HTC hermes, and it was better than the Cingular nonsense, but the guy said he still had to reboot (SR) every other day or so. That's what I hated about my MPx200, and later, my MPx300, so again I balked.

Then I started reading on here about how you guys are going a week (!) without a soft reset and I was floored. I never got more than two consecutive days on my other Windows Mobile devices without locking up and soft resetting.

The bottom line (well, my bottom line on the morality of these ROMs) is: If M$ could put out a ROM as fast as these in a timely manner, I would never be on here. And, if it wasn't for this site, they'd have never gotten my money for the device in the first place, and if it weren't for this site, I wouldn't now be looking into getting one and modding it for the old lady. Face it, the hardware stock is decent, but unless you are a phone geek, you aren't going to want to deal with these things and their as shipped ROMs.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] exstatica:
Exactly, you are more then welcome to copy any physical property i have in my house, and if you do manage to find a way to copy my fridge make me one too, i could use an extra on. Well actually in that case please copy my 2tb storage array too, i'm starting to run out of space.

btw just like if i buy a movie, instead of me ripping the dvd and then converting it to xvid I'd rather just download the same move. I own it, i bought it with a license. In fact i think that if i bought a movie, that I'm entitled to all different variations of that movie, like the special edition, and the extended version. but thats just my opinion.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] vp3G:
M$ Licensing = Hypocrisy run amok

Hahaha.. ironically this smacks of answers you'll get from M$ themselves with regard to their licensing rules. As an M$ Partner I've had many exhaustive discussions with them regarding their EULAs, particularly as they pertain to OEM vs. Retail software. I've pretty been forced to conclude it's a classic struggle between their legal and marketing departments. On the one hand they're adamant about enforcing their licensing rules, but at the same time they're blowing OEM software out back door with a wink and a nod and allowing it to be sold to those who shouldn't even be able to buy it. How better to gain marketshare, eh? I think they're genuinely scared of what the future may hold for them.

And to whomever asked about the EULA for Windows Mobile... it came with your phone. Mine had a M$ sticker on the face of it, the removal of which constituted acceptance of the EULA.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] wildbilll:
I stil have everything that was in the box with my 8525 that I obtained new from Cingular - as it arrived at my home. There is no EULA for WM5. There is a Getting Started disc that contains Outlook and Active Sync

4.2, which was never opened - till now--and it does not have anything in there related to the OS itself. There was no sticker on the face of the phone. There was a clear protector.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] exstatica:
i just pulled my box of my cingular 8525 and the getting started cd has a back with a huge orange sticker that says

"This product uses technological measure for copy protection. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE THE PRODUCT IF YOU DO NOT FULLY COMPLY WITH THE PRODUCT ACTIVATION PROCEDURES. Product activation procedures and Microsoft's piracy policy will be detailed during the initial launch of the product, or upon certain reinstallations of the software product or reconfigurations of the computer, and may be completed by internet or telephone (toll charges may apply)."

it also says.

"

Attention!

Use of the software program on the enclosed discs and/or installed on the computer is subject to the terms of the License Agreement. By using the software, you signify that you have read the License Agreement and accept its terms"

Now, since this is on the getting started cd, and is not required to even be opened or installed to use your Pocket pc, there is no licence agreement or piracy policy required to agree to when you turn on your phone.

So does that mean there is no piracy policy or any agreement of any kind on windows mobile phones if you don't have to agree to anything?

I know if i buy a computer from dell with windows preinstalled i have to agree to a crapload of legal agreements to finish the reinstalled installation.

But it seems my phone does not have the same policies.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] crabwalker:
Interestingly, the Customs in Hong Kong has gone after a cell phone shop because they have been selling SoftBank X01HT with the Dopod's English version WM5 preinstalled, while the phone was originally (and officially) shipped with Japanese SoftBank WM5 only, with the charge of breaching the copyright law.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] mccreath:
yip-yip-yip

...love this kind of discussion...

:p
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] wildbilll:
The software agreement on the orange sticker relates to the software on the CD. The talk about activation relates to the copy of MS outlook and the copy of activesync (for the desktop) that is on the disc. I never used anything on that disc.

The OS on the device has no EULA. I have never been presented with the ability to accept or reject any EULA

as the law requires in order for the agreement to be legally binding.

I paid money for this. I have to be able to opt out and get my money back if I don't agree.

Has anyone seen anything that states that if you do not agree with the terms of a WM5 license that they should not use the unit and return it for a refund?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] mattk_r:
As this is my first venture into the Hermes forum (considering upgrading my 8125), this thread is my first read. Wow. You guys dive deep.

I've been in a number of forums doing "grey" upgrades (I think someone mentioned sats before, amonst many others) but never has anyone brought up the "legality" issue.

For the most part, the objective is what mattered. How you got there didn't have too much moral debate.

If you moraly object to stepping into potentially "grey" area, you probably shouldn't be here.

There's been a lot of great arguments on both sides, but I think without a legal document granting permission from the carrier and m$, this debate won't be resolved by anyone's words here.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] dcoelho:
This discussion brings us to anywhere.

Hey, Guys, are you realy so worried about if our WM6 is piracy or not? I wnder to know how many have used or are using pirated MS software. I am very happy with the ROMs produced here an I hope the production continue, even after the official releases. I allways will use the "pirated" WM6 ROMS.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Firehawkns:
I don't think anyone really cares if it is or isn't (well a few might). But it seems to be an interesting discussion piece. :cool:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Sleuth255:
Who is hurt by our work here I wonder?

Operators who want you to shell another $700 for the next device just so you can have something that promises to not be buggy and actually work. This is the #1 reason for our existence btw.

Operators who replace devices bricked by n00bs that mis-apply our software (this is legit IMO). In a way, by playing spy vs. spy due to point 1 above, they hurt themselves. Des' and OliPro's brilliant work solved this to a great deal on Hermes devices.

Conversely, who is helped?

m$: we work out and report the bugs. XDA Developer coooked ROMs are just about the hottest phone software on the planet currently. We are drawing users over to the WM platform because of this. M$ tolerates us for this reason. Yes, they told us to remove our ROMs but that meant nothing. M$ was just paying "lip service" to the operators due to point 1 above. The ROMs just disappeared to mirrors and we still maintain the links.

HTC: we make their devices more desirable. HTC tolerates us for this reason. HTC devices are selling like hotcakes in part due to our cooked ROMS

It's a balance, so we exist.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] johnburn:
I would even go so far to add that I strongly believe that this forum "forced" HTC to change its mind regarding a free upgrade to WM6 for the Hermes and other similar devices (and the fact that M$ said that they wouldn't charge the OEMs/ODMs for the upgrades). If you recall, the original rumours from HTC were that they would not be issuing any WM6 upgrades for "existing" phones. This changed pretty quickly once the ROM cookers started creating WM6 ROMs.

John
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] basilrsa:
I agree fully with Sleuth and John in the above posts.

I was about to dump my TyTN because of the "buggy" nature of the device and the M$ software, and never look at another HTC device again!

I bought my device with a major "spec. deviation" on the Windows Media Player and was promised a fix with the next upgrade.

That was September 2006. I was contacted by HTC Service Europe this week(8.5 months later) to say that I should send my phone in to them for an upgrade as they now had a new ROM. They most probably do not realise that South Africa is not in the EU, but in fact many thousands of kilometres away. Why just the hassle of getting it through Customs and back again would be a major mission apart from the +/-$100 shipping cost

Well their ROM is no different to the one that I got from Leaf Wireless in South Africa, months ago viz. WM5 AKU 3.3.1. (HTC Europe denied its existance at that time)The bad news is that it does not solve the data card dropping out of Media Player problem.

I also started having screen alignment problems with this ROM as well as other bugs like freezing and the device not comming out of sleep mode without a soft reset.

Well without the support of HTC who profited out of the GBP 490 I paid for the device that I presumed would be in good working order, I was forced to find my own solutions.

XDA and WM6 has been the answer to all my woes and the WMP as well as SA problems no longer exist .

I now have a reliable, fast OS that compliments the hardware and the software updates are ongoing on a weekly basis! (and of course the choice)

So now I beg the question - am I a pirate or a consumer who has had to fend for himself because the OEM side have not kept their side of the deal and left me in the water for dead?

LONG LIVE THE XDA FORUM!

And I may now even consider buying the HTC Kaiser when it eventually gets launched in South Africa.

But I will never buy another product from HTC Europe again! Leaf Wireless yes, because their after sales service must rate tops in the world.

Unfortunately they would not support my TyTN as I bought it in Europe just after the launch there, and 4 months prior to their announcement that they were moving from I-Mate directly to HTC. But hey, if you go to the HTC URL you will find Europe and South Africa linked - but that's all bulldust. The two regions are not linked!

HTC Europe even told me that the TyTN was only released in the Commonwealth and the European Union. They had not heard of Leaf Wireless or maybe South Africa for that matter.

But hey that's my story and I am sure there are many like it.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] jacoch:
This thread is quite interesting. But I think that there is a confusion. The piracy does not come from the fact I'm putting another OS in my phone. I bought it, I do what I want with it. It's piracy because I'm using a piece of software I have no rights for. WM6 is not public or open source. So if I'm using it without MS consent, I'm pirating it. Now, I suppose MS lawyers are not on XDA back because they do not loose much money with this. Even worse, there is not much money to win by attacking a community doing this for fun. They could close it, but it will just appear somewhere else. But the fact that MS doesn't loose money doesn't mean it's not piracy.

It's the same for HTC. Their roms have been reversed. So it's piracy. It's not sure that HTC is doing something legal by preventing the customer to use the device as he wants by CID locking it. But that's another problem. The rom was reversed, so pirated.

All in all, in my point of view, we are using a pirated software on a pirated device.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Sleuth255:
You'd think that m$ would attempt to shut us down if that was the case jacoch. Why do you suppose they haven't made the attempt? ;)

Because we are helping them. We are beta testing their ROMs on devices they've already received their licensing fees for; devices which will receive free WM6 upgrades anyway. We are making WM more secure for business apps by dispersing Windows Mobile with SD encryption capabilities. We are helping to sell Exchange 2007 which allows business to manage WM6 devices better. We are putting the software Microsoft wants to use to bury RIM into the hands of the people who will actually make the buying decisions way before they could possibly do it themselves.

In England, this was known as "Privateering": piracy with the blessing of the crown.

So, I ask you jacoch: was Sir Francis Drake a pirate?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] CUSTEL:
yarrrr ye roms are pirated mateyyyyy :p
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Sleuth255:
Somebody had to say that heheheheheheh.....
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] ?Glitch:
Funny about pirated and microsoft... In a way it is ALL pirated, Gates stole the idea of a multitasking OS from Jobs in silicon valley...

And on that note.... HARRRR, more pirates, less global warming mate!!!!

Humbly & patiently awaiting the stripper factory & beer volcano...

?Glitch
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] unusedusername:
This really brings up a question of when it becomes piracy.

Does distributing a different config file for the default OS count as piracy? How about "hacked" bugfixes in .dlls(a2dp fixes...)? Maybe an aftermarket driver(WM5orage)?

I don't think upgrading one dll (the kernel) over another (WM5orage) makes much difference.

If MS were charging for WM6, or anything else like say VoiceCommand, and it was released for free then I can see it being piracy. Hacking together fixes for things that wouldn't be charged for is not piracy IMHO. Of course IANAL.

As for newbs bricking their phones, I'm sure the wireless carriers have much more to worry about then that. Most dead phones that I've seen were run over by a truck or went through the wash. (I used to be a cell phone sales monkey)

Anyways: YARRRR!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Sundown6:
I'd go as far as to say that we are not only beta testing it for them but to say that HTC using the ROMs mode on this site to base there ROM off of. Thats why there was not going to be a free upgrade to 6 till after we did it for them. It will cost them more time and cash to do it. Mostrom staff was more then likely working on roms for new phones. we come out with 6 for the phone and now they can take the best parts from each rom to make theres. next thing you know now there hardware has more users who will buy it.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] jacoch:
Because as I said, they have not much to earn from. By attacking a community, they could just hope to close it. And probably it will reopen somewhere else, maybe even several will. So it's better for them to keep all this here.

I'm not talking about the fact that the feedback found here is useful, that we don't make them loose money, that HTC can get help for hardware support, etc. I totally agree with the fact it's useful to them. But in a strict legal point of view, we are not authorized to use the software. So it's piracy.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] scorpio16v:
But in a few days it semms the first official WM6 ROM appears by the carriers.

So you can better sleep, if you run an official ROM ? :D
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Sleuth255:
In the strictest sense, Francis Drake was a pirate. He was knighted for that however. ;)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Ribbit:
over2land: "Put simply, if it wasn't for XDA and cooked ROMs you guys have, I would never have bought a Hermes-line PPC in the first place. I don't know how many others are in the same boat as me, but I was registered and lurking here, reading for months before I bought my phone."

Same here.

Make no mistake, this is:

1) good for Microsoft;

2) good for Windows Mobile;

3) good for Manufacturers;

3a) also good for programmers and Software;

4) good for Operators;

5) good for Sales;

6) good for expanding the Market;

7) good for the Consumer.

If it was illegal, it shouldn't be.

It isn't illegal.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] chainbolt:
I guess many poeple, inlcuding me, would be willing to pay for major upgrades and WM6. Part of the problem is the fuzzy relationship between us who have actually paid a lot for a MS Mobile device and the software, the manufacturers, the operators, and MS. Once they have cashed in they are very reluctant to iron out bugs and improve performance. I'm using my Hermes almost a year now, and during all this time my operator (O2) provided 1 (minor) update. This is not acceptable.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] chrisjasper:
You're lucky T-Mobile UK havent provided any and half their customer services dont know what you are talking about when you ask about a rom upgrade, I personally dont have any morality issues about using these roms considering the alternative is frequent crashes with the supplied rom........
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] PostDeals:
You are technically paying for it when you bought your phone, HTC or the manufacturer does account for those costs. They pay MS for the upgrade to sell more phones.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] truffle1234:
you must know what is embeded OS and WM is in that range... do you see CD ROM of PPC 2003 or WM5 anywhere this OS is per loaded on the devices and MS will gladly give for free as they will rather support new OS then older OS.

please try to think before posting... and compere apple to apple...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] truffle1234:
My friend windows XP is not an embeded OS.......if you think using the trial or beta WM6 on this forum then just dont use it but this is a total waste of time for everyone explaining to you that this is not pireted..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] truffle1234:
buit HTC is providing the free ROM upgrade..... the ROM upograde is not provided by the service provider its by the H/W compeny....