yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
There is big problem in HTC camera department and it's been going on for 3 flagships now. What you say: You want to be a testing pig. What we say : We want point and shoot. You are trolling monkey in my most honesty :)

I tell you about samsung s6 camera .They came a long way since S1 and ohh boy camera samples without final software is way better than M9. Proof is in the pudding. It's a shame M9 standards are getting compromised. It means it can been done without "they will fix it in a few months". Someone put it very well: Moving the goalpost. Sadly but true.
[One (M9) General] vegetaleb:
It's been years that I say HTC should have asked from camera professionals makers like Nikon to make a special lens for them, people bashed me from saying this as HTC doesn't need the help of anybody in the camera department :rolleyes:

Well yeah, after 2 years of 4mp that was good only for close-up and close people photos, they chose Toshiba for their sensor!

With all respects to Toshiba, I never heard that they were good at cameras, the problem with Peter Chou (now gone) is that he believed salesman from this kind of companies blindly, he should have studied the implementation of this lens in his M9 prototype months ago, I hope the new HTC administration will not repeat the same mistakes for the M10
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
True, things have to be changed. I just don't see them wanting to excel themself the way they did with M7. `i can see other OEM's like LG, Samsung Motorola, Iphone even consistently prove to be better in each iteration. Phones like 1+1 half the price still perform better than a flagship from HTC. I just can't wrap my head around how funny it gets here.

I thought Toshiba was ok given they sensors being used by high end Lumia phones as far as i know.

I think they clearly know what is going on with camera they just won't admit it at any price they flagship imagery is subpar. Look :), we know it we can say this image is better than this and therefore.I start to think they manipulating yield in favor of high returns or /and they are so troubled they can't afford good hardware. Yet think of how much Junior Robert Downey campaign costs.? It doesn't make a sense they would not be aware of what they do.
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
There are two major flaws in your thinking.

1) obsession with image quality in isolation to everything else. as if others are perfect, so i just have to show you bad photos from samsung or apple to make my point. nah i don't need to.

2) HTC must be perfect at launch when others are not. This is on principle.

both approaches lose sight of perspective to make their points. Narrow minded and useless.

Prove i'm a troll ? easy to throw labels around like complaining. i can call you a noise maker.

Can anyone challenge what i've said ? you can only disagree. Face it, i've pushed you to a stalemate ;)

Stop the whining, it does nobody any good. Every photo thread i've seen here has whiners trying to hog the limelight. don't work with me. And i've done this for a year now.

The ones have been the most bashed camera out there, so go some place else then dont get it.Why persist. who is the noise maker.

i thought i would spend some time in the trenches and see how things go.

I hate one star reviewers they create a stink and half the time one wonders about their competence to even make the statements they do. two out of ten of every 1 star reviews i read on amazon are worth any thing.
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
Now you start flawing people instead of device hardware. `ok..lets see how far will you play this card.

"1)obsession with image quality in isolation to everything else. " Let me correct you here . Our conversation started on imagery and it's quality , hardware and software. I didn't shifted the subject for this purpose. You want to talk about something else lets do it.

Show me where M9 camera excels Iphone 6 or S6. I would love to see it.

I doubt you would eat half baked pancakes but your behaviour proves otherwise.

"Prove i'm a troll ? easy to throw labels around like complaining." I am challenging YOU TROLL.

Lets assume you don't know what troll means." In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog)

with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response

[2]

or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[

3]"

You are not able to hold on a single subject, you provoke readers , upset them and not able to hold on-topic discussion. behaviour like that carries a lot of hatred.

"Face it, i've pushed you to a stalemate" You wish... having a laugh mate. What do you smoke paid troll?
[One (M9) General] iggdawg:
I can't agree strongly enough on this point. Selection bias plays a massive part in the mobile device camera discussions. it's a huge wash of "look at these crappy pics from this device and these awesome pics from that device!". Every device is perfectly capable of producing terrible pics.

I love my M8, and I love the pics I can take with it. But every now and then I snap one that's like.... wow how did something that bad even happen?! doesn't diminish how well it works for the most part. Especially when I take a few seconds to adjust position and lighting with a little footwork.
[One (M9) General] flex360:
getting my phone in a couple of hours.

i shall be taking pics of the lovely Manhattan NYC today on my way home from work
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
Bingo! now all we need are m9 owners who think that way to amaze us. Won't be long :)

Take more than one shot, take many shots. Try different ideas. ASK. why this did not work out, what can be done. We will know what the real problems are or lack thereof. Then there is the raw option to do whatever the hell you want.
[One (M9) General] iggdawg:
I'm sure hamdir will show up before too long with some amazing pics and good tips for how to get the most out of the device.
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
Can't agree more with you.
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
No doubt, there is one line of his i use many times.

bad photo does not mean bad camera -- hamdir
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
Why does someone that admitted he works in the trade even dispute this. The person taking the shot makes a major difference over the camera every time with any camera.

If you've not heard of digital rev's protog cheap camera challenges on youtube i recommend you watch them. It ain't the gear its the 12 inches behind the gear. Very pertinent to any phone camera because of its limitations.

Are you in the image quality rules camp or not ? true, what you said otherwise.

Now ask yourself what if you don't want other devices and m9 has to be it. What then ? You did not answer which phone you will get after you sold your M7. Is it m9 i wonder ?

What is wrong with Jesse's shots ? they were put up very early of what is possible.

How about raw ? do you at least agree that raw will improve image quality. I posted nexus 5 shots earlier of jpg vs raw. and i could not believe the same camera took both shots.

So when will iP6 or S6 get raw. When they do how much difference will be there with m9. I bet minor because the tech is similar, sensor size & of the same generation, lens etc So your point of better camera goes where after this ?

Because i encourage people to try different things with m9, to experiment, not to give up. This is wrong to say in an m9 thread ? i do this in any & every camera thread.

I do get in the way of those pushing image quality over everything. I will push that for sure because of the reasons i've mentioned already.

You don't seem to appreciate that i'm in a fundamentally strong position because i'm not bashing the m9, on the contrary.I don't bash cameras. What starts the fighting is when people get into pissing contests of mine is better than yours.

I'm asking how good can YOU be. Differrence ! How to close the gap with others if not over take them.

Show me the best the m9 is capable of. I've not seen that yet. That is my objective in this thread or any photo thread for that matter.
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
If you've not heard of digital rev's protog cheap camera challenges on youtube i recommend you watch them. It ain't the gear its the 12 inches behind the gear. Very pertinent to any phone camera because of its limitations.[/QUOTE]

Rephrase your thought not following you here ?!

The first line is yours so don't quote me on what you said. Best rephrase it again then I can give you an answer.

I have Iphone 6 and still use M7. Show me M9 image quality exceeding S6 or Iphone 6. Why would average Joe which is majority use RAW image engine. You sound like : Oh Sir we have very nice smartphone for you however camera could be better. Oh Don't just be put off... you can edit your 500 holiday photos in the RAW engine. Just get photoshop elements and fly through them. I don't understand your logic.

Yes RAW will improve, I work every day with RAW images and you know what I least want to mess with my phone RAW. Majority just want point and shoot.

No, it's just not nice to impose your own idea that everyone should know how to use the camera apart from AUTO and that it's people's fault if they get bad images.(incase camera is not capable of AUTO)

Your strong position only strong on the plane of itself but because it;s out of context to given situation it serves no purpose whatsoever and therefore makes no sense.

You Should create your own thread then " Show me the best the m9 is capable of. I've not seen that yet. That is my objective in this thread" this would make perfect sense after all :)
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
I am still working. I never heard any pro photographer to choose inferior gear over superior to get more creative apart from you . That kind of thinking of yours doesn't do good for photography. Post processing is here for getting creative, Well of course you can tether your camera vi C1 Capture One Pro and do adjustments in computer but I never heard any photographer praising faulty hardware or software.

What kind of image criteria is this? Anyone can crank up sharpness but it doesn't work as magic button. `you are master of delusion. What do you smoke?

Not entirely . Fashion and beauty industry requires highest possible standard imagery to start from because further pixel and color push will be involved and if you have already average quality pixels it only naturally get worse.

The purpose of the test is to push limits and obviously to pick the best one. What's wrong with that? And yes given todays market there are 3 best smartphone camera performers: Samsung Iphone and Lumia. Just deal with that.

In two years so MANy., But it didn't fix purple fringe which was hardware problem, dynamic range is still poor and predictively poor in certain situation, washouts, Wb problem. 2years! I hope they will improve camera and they will but camera still be average for the flagship no matter how many firmware updates there will be. Sadly but true.

HDR is simply terrible. used a few times and the stopped. Didn't see any worthy from M9 either. I think the problem is they are pushing it too much.

I don't buy faulty/inferior hardware.
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
Those guys will specialise. we are dealing with a smartphone here. Making the best of what you got.

What more than sharpness do you see in those comparisons ?

What i mean by image quality here is narrowly captured in sharpness. details. this is what stands out.

I've offered a way to deal with it.

I remember the purple fringe thing. From what i understood it was due to heat. Too much heat ended up affecting the sensor. That was a real downer with the m7. Started cropping up in just six months.

I will defer opinion on how good it can be until more updates come out. You seem to call it now. Lets see in a few more months.

Speed over quality, blend in three images in a second (!)

The one thing that really challenges is HDR+ on the nexus. They do some extra processing on it to improve details. Which at a distance looks good but closer up is something else. You can't do any post processing on an image like that. And i could not understand why the nexus people always favoured it but its like this better setting. let's say its a unique way of doing things that does not have a parallel.

Camera sensor of CPU ?

When i looked at the specs of the toshiba 13MP sensor it seemed more interesting than the 20MP. maybe marketing said no 13MP in 2015.

810 is a different discussion.
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
It doesn't matter . You asked me to make a point I made. No photographer deliberately use or choose inferior hardware so you would not be here if you didn't care about image quality. That's another contradiction from you.

Not only that. White balance, dynamic range, colour reproduction. Sharpness by far is not the most important thing .

Your logic doesn't make sense here at all. They don't tweak camera while testing that's the purpose of the comparisons,then they pick the best performer. Proof me wrong why they wrong doing that?

The lesser the gimmick the better.

Don't just shift the subject yet. You also said :

Because DSLR and full frame camera industry is less forgivable to manufacturers they less prone to sell half baked or/and inferior products. HTC seems to allow themself more than most any other flagship. And so people like you encourage them to do so :)

By saying "I don't buy faulty/inferior hardware" I suggest, for this instance ,HTC M9, smartphones in general , computers, monitors, camera etc. Even PC CPU's Graphic cards.
[One (M9) General] Teo032:
I love this, it's like debate/argumentation class. good points on both sides.

I believe summary is something like

nebula: it's 2015, ip6 and s6 are great out of the box with great hw, hence flagship tag.

one twelve: m9 hw is comparable, but auto software is not. manual shots should/will do great. m9 has the capability but dependent on user.

nebula: but it shouldn't be so dependent on users, it's a flagship phone.

one twelve: I'm here to explain that m9 camera is capable of great shots, not solely comparing between devices, as all devices are one way or another dependent on the user.

nebula: if sammy, apple, nokia could do it, then htc should've done it also.

conclusion: you guys want a s6/ip6+ camera on m9's phone with manual mode capability.

very good point guys.
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
Be my guest Teo. Glad you brought in sammary. Final summary line has subliminal message in all my honesty that consumer priority for flagship phone is decent and effortless camera experience, AUTO, while richer manual controls are desirable addition. In other words decent hardware and software should be the last bridge for creativity to manifest but for the sugaring up of shortcomings of the camera. Which makes perfect sense.
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
What you are saying i would phrase as using the right tool for the job. Superior /inferior is vague. compared to what and by how much and then we can quibble over that last bit :)

My larger point is mindset over gear. What can you do if you just have a smartphone. Watch

this

. Maybe you wonder what alex is smoking too.

Do not take it literally. ofc nobody will use a smartphone for a commercial product shoot. You do not have to go all the way that he does. But see what is possible and apply in any situation with any camera. Work around limitations. On a board which specialises in smartphones, where people are more capable than the general public this is not an unusual statement to make.

Sure, but when people here look at them, first thing they say is details. So many times people put up grabs and say see how good/bad details are.

colour reproduction is a function of white balance, important, but can be worked around otherwise in post. Also how much light is there and this is where the shutter time comes in. quality of the light. if my device is over sensitive i will try to prefer soft light over harsh. Not take a shot in harsh light and say see how much this sucks.

dynamic range is a function of metering and where you get exposure. since people take shots in all lighting conditions, a standard way of doing this isn't going to show scope. In fact it under represents the abilities of all phones in the test and picked just one case. One way to get around this to use bracketing and blend. I prefer this method to hdr as you are completely in control. I won't do it all the time but a few times just for the fun of it.

Watch this

review

. The difference is he shows shortcomings and provides workarounds. THAT i find lacking in most big name reviewers and is why they get slammed on this board.

Proof ? note 4 (

default

) vs lumia 930(

auto

) & lumia 930 (

manual

)

The idea is to show competence and not play to ignorance or convenience. Is it possible or not ? bottom line.

You mean to say m9 can't do that ? nobody has done it does not mean it cannot be done. And when someone does we can talk about the merits.

Agree but HDR+ is a concept that would challenge one from a traditional school of thinking.

No, i'm not giving htc a pass. many would make that charge against sony too. Also i have provided an example of S4.

You would think they would try harder, but sometimes its not there. You have to deal with it or choose something else.
[One (M9) General] One Twelve:
And it would be nice to have boomsound on s6 & ip6+ with just as good 3rd party dev support :D
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
Inferior is largely used to describe technology for instance: CPU, graphic cards so to sensors to speak about. Google it.

You largy misinterpret the point others including me made for the sake of inferior/faulty hardware + software. Alex could not possibly be held in the same league as you. For that reason reason you smoke he doesn't . Does that makes a sense? For some reason you are not able to grasp the real essence of the whole thread and bragging on about manual controls. The issue here is camera performance which is bad due to many factors that only HTC holds responsibility here not the consumer. Consumer did not manufacture hardware, did not write the software, did not make decisions in production etc. Solely for this reason majority and I are not happy about it . So your "do it manual control way" doesn't fit here for the reason I told you early 2-3 times . Quoting myself within the context:

"Final summary line has subliminal message in all my honesty that consumer priority for flagship phone is decent and effortless camera experience, AUTO, while richer manual controls are desirable addition. In other words decent hardware and software should be the last bridge for creativity to manifest but for the sugaring up of shortcomings of the camera. "

I never argued one can achieve better results using manual control. But that's not the case here because product itself is faulty.

I never argued one can achieve better results using manual control. But that's not the case here because product itself is faulty. Prove me wrong it's not?

yea but no but! White balance can be wellish executed but colours are dull. That's why you have good gear and average or bad. Wit ha good gear skin tones will be rich and will have more than one hue with bad you will have more less uniform skin .So it applies to colour in general. HTC has poor colour range for that reason no amount of post processing will enrich the colours.

For the same reason I told you that now 3-4 times your point is not valid. Thanks for video anyway. My quote: "Final summary line has subliminal message in all my honesty that consumer priority for flagship phone is decent and effortless camera experience, AUTO, while richer manual controls are desirable addition. In other words decent hardware and software should be the last bridge for creativity to manifest but for the sugaring up of shortcomings of the camera. " And this applies to the situation when few other smartphone cameras do certain things out of the box while other can't due to fault/shortcomings.

Manual control is out of context here..

Spot on regarding can't accept it go elsewhere. But by no means hardware faults should encourage one to move goal posts. I would love to see more people to speak out about it and even write it to HTC because we all ,here, love our HTC devices. We all fans.
[One (M9) General] defcomg:
Raw is working Here is a temp Raw Converter

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5NJTB9bLPdsaENJQW0xUk1CODQ/edit?usp=docslist_api

Using Freedcam Select Qcom gbrg profile then take a picture

open DNG Parser click on select file navigate to DCIM/freedcam check start conversion when done you will have a dng file found in the the same folder as the source raw files.

These Tool is only temporary till update is pushed to playstore no estimated ETA as playstore version is stable but the there's a g+ beta version that is pushed more regularly so it might be pushed soon.

alternatively you can fork the source on github and build from source

edit new beta pushed

https://plus.google.com/communities/112880644833309033743
[One (M9) General] th3:
This is really beating a dead horse :/

HTCs camera on the M9 has been shown as trash. Its a failure, because:

i) Totally non-competitive to 2015 tech.

ii) Non-competitive with most of 2014 flagship tech as well.

iii) A regression in most camera departments to the M8, it's replacing.

So let's see. A very few hopefuls, and all the die hard fanboys, are now moving the goalposts... saying:

a) The reviewer was a noob, making basic errors. Proof? None.

b) Manual controls show it as far better, and competitive. Proof? None.

c) We can fix all this in software afterwards. Proof? So can we with anything.

Point a) and c) are a fallacy, inapplicable, invalid. Point b) is humorous wishful thinking (since this has never ever happened before) but still, not tested out properly.

What more is there?

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[One (M9) General] vegetaleb:
Anyone can tell if Z3 camera is better than M9?
[One (M9) General] gmfeny:
I love HTC and even tho the s6 newer style was looking more attractive I still got the one m9. And I don't regret it at all but to be honest the camera isn't good at all. At least not in low light. I'm not a camera pro and I hardly ever take pics but I was taking pics side by side with m7 every pic I took with my m7 looked better
[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
At the moment M9 camera is fiasco. Can't put my head around. I just look at the photos people postI and want to see more in hope to see decent ones but its not the case here. Never went to S6 camp but yeatarday I looked and oh boy camera is amazing .

I had opportunity to play with Z3 few days ago and from short encounter I can tell you three things: device is beautiful, speakers on my M 7 are richer and clearer, screen colour of Z3 is not accurate. However owner told me that battery life is very good.

Th3, I really appreciate appreciate HTC fans doing all hard work and getting the best out of possible. It sucks especially for those who has to jump on two year contract and live with that . People also find an idea of trying other devices scare some and bitter taste in everyone's mouth this year. For those who will stick to M9 after all good for them for me its just flagship not worth my money anymore. M7 is the device of all times! Did you get M 9 after all?
[One (M9) General] th3:
Yup... I like working with new tech :)

I'm comparing it to M8...

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[One (M9) General] nebulaoperator:
Have you posted comparison images? Having said I already know what to expect from m9 :)
[One (M9) General] th3:
They're coming... Busy busy busy

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