yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Xperia Z3 General] se1000:
- Android is used in a lot more devices than just smartphones. Android 5.1 now supports dual sims, are we now going to cry for all phones to have dual sims? I never said it was pointless. More on this below.

- You make it seem like white balance adjustments (as well as others) are impossible on JPEG which isn't true. Again, we're talking about sensors and lenses with limited resolution and dynamic range. For example, the vast majority of point and shoot cameras don't record in RAW and these are devices purposely built for taking photos.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like the ability to shoot in RAW, but to start a thread and put "LOLIFLOP" in the title because of it is just silly. In the lists of "nice to have" features, I don't even consider it a priority. Why? Even as someone who values a good camera, and as someone who understands exactly what RAW support would give me, I don't think I'd use it that often.

Let's be realistic, composition and technique will produce vastly superior shots over having the ability to shoot RAW over JPEG, especially the JPEGs the Z3 produces.
[Xperia Z3 General] paysen:
Shooting in RAW on that small sensor makes no sense, but shooting and compress it (JPG) makes sense?

Who cares about the size of those pics, you don't have to use it for every picture you take, but it would be great to have the ability to shoot in raw when you actually want it.

The reasons against a raw mode are pretty limited imo. And I don't know in what kind of countries other people here live in, but in germany nearly every pc can handle Photoshop, Lightroom etc. And I guess I don't have to tell you that there are free alternatives out there for beginners.

There are great features made by the magic lantern community, like dual iso for example. It was one of the reasons I bought a Canon DSLR instead of a Nikon.

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/?topic=7139.0

Talented devs should be able to develop some nice features. I still have my DSLR for pics, but sometimes I'd like to see what the camera is really capable off.
[Xperia Z3 General] dancress:
It's not about the compression. It's about the post processing. IMHO smartphone pics are only usable because of it. While a RAW might be watchable in perfect lighting conditions, everything else is thanks to the software. Those low light shots we see from those tiny optics? Would probably be pitch black without processing.

As I said above, self importance is the only reason why people scream for RAW (and FLAC) on smartphones.
[Xperia Z3 General] parental92:
jesus, fine googling mate. but here is a valid reason :

normal user wont use raw at all, in fact it will look duller than normal jpeg. yes ita all true that you have a full manual control of the photos. but with such a tiny sensor and a tiny percentage of people that will actually take advantage of that feature. i dont see any reason to take more time and implement it , which also increase the chance that the other camera feature will go wrong.

i would love to have a sutter speed control though. but it is not a deal breaker, still we should realize its a smartphone , not a dslr, even most people who have entry level dslr dont know what RAW is. and never touch photoshop or lightroom before.

these days people seems to forgot, that they bought a phone for features in that particular device, not future updates. and they ask too much of the manufacturer , despite that, naturally, i want the best and greatest android experience .

as log as the photo is good enough, im happy with my phone and ill use more professional things (a DSLR) to more professional photos. get over it.

there are manya more better feature to wait for in lollipop, example :

-art runtime

-project volta

-material design
[Xperia Z3 General] lol1rfs:
Or even know how to use it.
[Xperia Z3 General] parental92:
exactly my point:o
[Xperia Z3 General] radicans:
Sensitive topic?

Having RAW would allow us to bypass the built in processing (sharpening, de-noising, color correction) that not everybody likes, which I personally think looks like crap when compared to most other phones. I wouldn't want to be without it in low light though, but for daylight it just ruins the photos.

If you believe RAW is useless in smart phones, here is an example.

http://www.androidauthority.com/nexus-5-lollipop-camera-api-samples-540858/

Sure, color correction can be done without RAW, but not with the same good result, as colors get crushed pretty quickly in 8-bit. No one believes we will get DSLR quality out of phone photos, but you can get a lot more out of them compared to the built in processing.

There are definitely many arguments for RAW, for those who would like to use it. And for those who don't want to use it - don't use it! It's that simple! I don't understand all this raging over the mere thought of including RAW in smart phones.
[Xperia Z3 General] dancress:
Not really, no. But the point about RAW is that it's one of those buzz-things everybody 'needs'. I brought up FLAC, too. It's the same crowd. People who think they look very important by mentioning it but wouldn't see or hear the difference if presented with alternatives. They want it. Just because they think it makes them look cool.

Why I'm getting so excited about it? Because this self important hipster stuff takes away valuable development time from features that are actually useful. The Sony camera app on my Z3 (Lollipop) still takes 4 seconds to load so I won't get the cool snapshot. And seeing how it's a smartphone camera, the ability to catch the cat doing something funny is a lot more important than having it in a format only pros have real use for. Cover the basics, please. Then go and do fancy stuff.

That's my personal opinion. I do press photography semi-professionally (with a DSLR of course). Depending on the situation I absolutely use RAW. But the difference is that I usually know beforehand what I'm gonna do with a particular photo. Smartphone photos... not so much. They're for fun throwaway pictures. I'm rather sure that doesn't make me special in any kind of way ;)
[Xperia Z3 General] M7ammad:
Camera

The problem here isn't about not having RAW but it's actually about the camera software, its hasn't got any better with no changes, superrior auto is still crap , no shutter speed control , no real manual focus ,no 20mp superior auto or manual settings , camera is still far behind competitors while having better hardware , bad contrast and saturation and washed out colors, HDR does nothing compared to other flagships. even other phones that use the same sensor give better pictures. Thats why its called LOLIFLOP , also Sony is the last OEM to realease lolipop , yet they disappoint like always. :crying::crying:
[Xperia Z3 General] bartolo5:
This! The real problem with Z3 is that the camera is just not competitive with what's out there (Note 4, iPhone 6..), from the pictures it takes to the speed of focus and general usability. Sadly it's all a software thing, because the same sensor is producing fantastic results in other phones. Sony would have to probably start from scratch to get somewhere and not sure if they have the will of the resources.
[Xperia Z3 General] radicans:
Well, I would be less inclined to call out for RAW if Sony did something to improve their image processing software, but it's clear now that they will not. Mostly, what us self important hipsters really want is a way to not have the photo content ruined, and RAW would be a excellent solution (which would likely not require much development time). I don't own a DSLR (I'd rather spend my money on ski equipment), so I want to make the most out of my phone photos and not throw them away.
[Xperia Z3 General] jonmorris:
As I said before, because of the suspect nature of Sony's own image processing - RAW is probably of greater benefit to Xperia users than RAW on a DSLR where the majority of images will be processed to a much higher standard and the automatic settings will be better (not to mention the manual controls).
[Xperia Z3 General] etwashoo:
Speaking from experience, RAW makes a huge difference. I am using a Nexus 5 with Android 5.0.1 and the camera2 api. I bought a Z2 last week hoping for camera2 api in Lollipop.

I am so disappointed in the Z2 camera compared to the Nexus 5. I (multiple DSLR owner) tried all the manual settings on my Z2, and my stock camera app on my Nexus 5 can beat the Z2 in all situations. Even better, I can use an app like L Camera which has many more manual controls than the Z3 (or Nexus 5), and because it has access to RAW data, the jpeg-processed pictures are even better (choice to save either RAW or JPEG or both) and RAW photos can be even a step better when processed on a PC. Camera Sensor is an simple app that will just do automatic RAW to JPEG conversion, and shines in low light.

L Camera: https://github.com/PkmX/lcamera

When you are standing on the observation deck/hill overlooking a foreign city at night and only have your phone with you for that once in a lifetime shot- that is when you want RAW capability. Good luck with Sony's crappy stock JPEG.

My Z2 will now be going back to amazon.
[Xperia Z3 General] lee480:
Went to Hong Kong and my Z2 took fantastic images, especially in night mode, better than my Nexus 4 (then). Looks like the LP made the camera better.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 AM ----------

Sony maybe one of the last (definitely not the last), but managed to deliver to relatively stable update with minimal bugs, unlike the other OEM's Loliflop when first release. Again, majority of OEMs have no RAW either.
[Xperia Z3 General] kernald:
People who don't want to use RAW on their smartphones are not raging against the potential RAW support. But against topics like this which looks like not including this support means it's the end of the world. Put it side by side with the great update Sony provided to us, you'll probably see what I mean…
[Xperia Z3 General] jonmorris:
But Sony hasn't really updated the camera app for ages, and I don't see any differences post-Lollipop (but please do correct me if I've missed something).

RAW would be a nice feature to add, and given Sony's desire to push imaging it would make logical sense to include support at some stage - like when the Z4 comes along. It would/could take imaging to the next level, and give it an edge over the competition also pushing better photography with every new release.

Once it comes to the Z4, it could and should be rolled back to existing Sony Xperia users wherever possible. Again, another way to get a lead.

Sony needs to realise that manufacturers that had a bad reputation for supporting devices and offering timely upgrades and new features often end up losing sales, as even ordinary consumers (not just geeks like us) feel let down. It happened to Motorola and HTC, and could easily happen to Sony.

Adding features to an older model (as did happen with the Z2 to a degree when the Z3 was released and updated, to be fair) doesn't mean losing a sale as people won't bother to upgrade, it means they'll stay loyal.

Anyway, that's starting to go off on a tangent, so I'll come back to saying that adding RAW support would be a good move. Sony has obviously felt it sensible to play on its audio heritage by offering enhanced audio capabilities, so why not the same for imaging?

At the end of the day, Sony needs some sort of hook with the Z4. It will look much the same as the Z3, and few ordinary punters will know much about the chipset or the difference if there's an updated image sensor in there, so these are real benefits that can be 'sold' to people. Even if they don't even use the RAW mode, they'll be happy to own something that is 'like a professional camera'.
[Xperia Z3 General] parental92:
still tough , a phone camera . . . just be happy with it, if not look elsewhere.

nowdays people wanted a lot of things, demand demand demand, i missed the old days where people buy phones for feature that already on that particular device, instead of moaning for update every 6 minutes.

casual photos , use xperia, than more professional, use DSLR . . .

i mean how hard can it be? i would rather sony focus on something else.
[Xperia Z3 General] jonmorris:
What does Sony do to tell consumers its phone is better than the others then? Skip advancing the camera quality and tell people to buy a DSLR instead?

I guess you won't be getting a job in Sony Mobile's marketing department anytime soon!

Sony/Sony Ericsson had years of saying it had the best cameras, but now supplies image sensors to others who seem to do a better job - and they too promote the camera and talk about better quality in a range of ways, from time to shoot, low-light, movement, HDR, OIS etc etc.

I wouldn't be surprised to see other devices getting RAW support, and backing it up with integrated apps to allow far superior editing on the device itself, before creating the JPG for sharing.

And to finish, you say 'be happy with it, if not look elsewhere'. Well, again, that's silly as that means Sony loses sales.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think RAW is essential - but it IS essential to think of new ways to sell a new device. Most consumers aren't going to be bothered about faster SoCs when their current device is probably plenty fast enough, their current camera is probably sufficient, their display is clear and bright...

They want to be sold new ideas and concepts that make them think it's worth an upgrade, even if some of these new things are gimmicks.

Sony can't just launch the Z4 and keep telling people it can work underwater, and we've had 3 models with a 20.7MP camera now.. and two with stereo speakers.. and most with excellent batteries...
[Xperia Z3 General] lee480:
Neither are most consumers (not including enthusiasts) bothered about RAW support or the amount of noise present in a photo, fortunately. This may explain why Sony sold a record volume phones the previous quarter. People take a picture, upload to instagram, ta-da, done. What's needed is marketing, gimmicks that consumers buy, and RAW is definitely not one.
[Xperia Z3 General] thedisturbedone:
Hello again. Haha I agree with you this time though. I'm interested to know if more Android powered cameras will emerge making use of this RAW tech.
[Xperia Z3 General] parental92:
thats what we call , marketing. if i were sony i cant jsut say, buy our phone , it got 2 days battery but the camera is a bit rubbish.

they bound to say that it is the best what they got.

the message im trying to convey is just dont overestimate smartphone camera. i know people here in xda are smart and know how to look over the manufacturer promotion for normal people and take the device as what it is.

and a slight critique about your so called new way to sell device , see which one is better for general consumer :

Buy the new xperia z4 with RAW image capturing , for the best in class camera *

(*for RAW image to be shared you have to edit each one separately before sharing,otherwise it will look unsaturated, and might need sharpening and we have yet to find an app to do that in the phone , so you should do it on the computer first (windwos doesnt support RAW image format without extra program like photoshop which will cont more money)then youll be able to share it, or just shoot JPEG)

OR

Buy the new xperia z4 with 6 core processor , and improved waterproofing in a aluminium unibody.

(no need of explanation.)

IN fact in this case RAW image are too complicated to be used by general consumer which is targeted by sony.

and unless youre deliberately comparing and peeping the photo, normal user wont notice anyway. yes RAW addition is nice on every camera. but it ist necessary at all. we should realize that you and i are power user.

Not a general consumer who even on DSLR camera using automatic mode ans shooting jpegs with it. Their need of a practical camera outweighs our important for other feature.

i totally agree with you that general consumer doesnt care at all about processor , and processor now days are fast enough, and sony needs its own unique factor, but RAW clearly isnt the answer.

afterall xperias are the most balanced product out there, beautifully designed , water resistant , and on top of them, a nice UI.:highfive:
[Xperia Z3 General] radicans:
Well, as far as I'm concerned, they don't have to market it, or even put it in the stock camera app, just plain and simple make it available in the API so that other apps can utilize it! There is NO excuse or reason to not do that. It's virtually a matter of flipping a switch (provide a function which converts RAW to DNG), and requires only a very small effort on Sony's behalf, as far as I am aware. And it would bag them *big* credibility points with all the "geeks", camera hobbyists, and developers, and we are quite a few, certainly not negligible. Having said that, I could do without RAW if the photos came out nicely, actually I would *prefer* not to have to deal with RAW on a regular basis, but Sony's image processing makes it the worst camera by far out of the flagship phones out there. Would be very very happy with Note4 or iPhone photo quality for example. Was hoping for an improvement with lollipop, but clearly they kept whatever useless intern they had before in charge of the imaging software.. (ok ok, low light is impressive. But that's it.)
[Xperia Z3 General] parental92:
true that, but i might have a reason why sony have to put camera api2 aside, they have to re build their entire camera apps to be compatible with camera api2, and that would delay the update plus increase the possibility of mugs on the camera itself. but who am i to speak? i mainly use my phone camera to take photo of documents anyway:silly:
[Xperia Z3 General] jonmorris:
Exactly right. There are loads of alternative camera plug-ins for Xperia devices, so why the heck wouldn't Sony want to be able to promote a 'pro' camera with full manual settings, editing, RAW etc.

I certainly wouldn't be using RAW as a matter of course, although I'd possibly go for saving a JPG and RAW image. The former for the quick Tweet/share, and RAW for when you want to get the best from a photo later on - or even edit on the phone. Crikey, you need to have SOMETHING to justify Snapdragon 810 and stacks of RAM, plus 200GB of optional storage!
[Xperia Z3 General] nocomp:
just updated global compatibility list in first post
[Xperia Z3 General] danw_oz:
Sony is very unlikely to provide RAW support, as much as I would like to have the option to choose it when I think it would be required.

Sony have been super secretive about this camera sensor, and not provided certain drivers for the camera because they are worried this would reveal the secrets around how the achieved the specs of the camera since the Xperia Z
[Xperia Z3 General] juanmaasecas:
Raw could be possible, we need developers!

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3062644
[Xperia Z3 General] unmaskedfalesh:
M9 can do raw with software update...gosh i wish sony could be more generous... Than telling if there is demand we will add raw support how much more demand they need!!!!
[Xperia Z3 General] lee480:
Compare the M9 with the upcoming Xperia Z4/Z5.

M7/8 didn't receive it.
[Xperia Z3 General] jomansch:
come on people...what is all this fuss about? RAW on a cellphone, come on...when i really need a highres-post-production shot, i sure won't use a cellphone to take the pic, but my DSLR...i could't care less about RAW, really...
[Xperia Z3 General] jonmorris:
RAW will let you process the image on a PC better than letting the phone do it, so what's the harm? Don't want it, don't select it. Simple.

But it'a a feature of the OS. It gives an edge, and now LG has made it a selling feature on the G4.

Surely Sony should be doing this?
[Xperia Z3 General] lee480:
Yeah. They'll be for the Xperia Z4.
[Xperia Z3 General] mysara saad:
Sony now ask you if you want raw to be implemented in the next updates
[Xperia Z3 General] beni8978:
I wantt
[Xperia Z3 General] radicans:
Really? That would be good news!

Where do they ask, and how do you respond with your feedback?
[Xperia Z3 General] plemen:
http://xdaforums.com/z3/general/sony-to-want-raw-mode-t3096640/page2
[Xperia Z3 General] Entropy512:
Yeah. With the exception of Nexus devices, do ANY devices that originally shipped with KitKat (or earlier) have Camera2 support?

Last I checked, OnePlus' RAW support was still Qualcomm's proprietary version (present in KitKat), not Google's API that was released with Lollipop, and that was one of the few phones on the planet to support RAW.
[Xperia Z3 General] AddictedToGlass:
I'm on a quest to find someone who can heal the z3V to enable saving RAW photos.

I haven't read this whole thread. I got to a part where *****ing started between know-it-alls starting that they thought others wouldn't even know what RAW files are and what to do with them.

Well yes, I most certainly do.

Then a know-it-all started in about smartphone camera sensor size.

At nearly half an inch diagonal, the CMOS in my z3v is undoubtedly capable of recording an amazing RAW image.

Simply put, Sony's software does their 1/2.3" sensor a most terrible injustice.

I spent some time years back helping port my Canon P&Ss over at CHDK forums to enable some crazy **** like focus bracketing, intervalometer, even scripts that did motion detection. Somewhere in my digital pile of junk I have beautiful shots of lightening strikes at night using motion detection (not using open shutter).

One thing those guys were able to do was circumnavigate the post-processing software and save images as either .tiff or other RAW. The possibilities were amazing, and all I had was Photoshop 6! Huge files and no soft, blurry jaggies from crappy interpolation.

If anyone knows of anybody working on this project please let me know. There are many of us (I believe) who purchased the Z3-Z3V in part for its supposed great camera.
[Android Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riichard63:
Hello,

Actually I have a project, let me explain :

On Xiaomi Mi4 running MIUI 6 (android 4.4.4) I have a sony imx214 sensor able of 32 seconds exposure time maximum, but on MIUI camera stock app I have a manual mode allowing me only 1 second exposure time maximum. (Yes I know that I need a tripod for long exposure shots). And I searched how to increase this maximum exposure time.

Xiaomi actually sells a MiNote which has almost the same sensor and able of 32s exposure time. So I took the camera apk from MiNote and replaced it on my Mi4, changing the permissions of the system app of course, but no way I still get 1s exposure maximum. So this setting is related to a dependency of the camera apk.

I tried to decompile apk, no result of what I was seraching for, I also tried apk analyzer app, but it's too much complex for me (I'm a newbie). I also made a project on dexter but I still don't understand how to see dependencies. I tried to make logcats when I changed the exposure time in manual mode and here's what I get :

D/QCameraParameters( 248): int32_t qcamera::QCameraParameters::setExposureTime(const char*), exposure time: 1000000

I searched everywhere and I was not able to find the QCameraParameters.

If someone is able to help me I can share dexter project with him.

But if no one has time can you just give me a clue?

Edit : Attachement of camera properties, here is the line telling me that camera can handle 32s exposure :

max-exposure-time=32000000;

And someone here managed to modify it : http://en.miui.com/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=54658&pid=1573405

But can't flash his rom, and it's russian.
[Android Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riichard63:
Okay, finally found a solution, MiuiCamera.apk from MiNote was not orking for longer exposure time but the apk from russian rom do the job.