yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] booda:
I've seen a drastic shift in tone in the brief time I've been reading these boards, to the point where a lot of the fun of this place has disappeared. So, I'm gald the mods are taking a proactive approach.

I think a waiting period after registration is a good idea. At the same time, if the goal is to cut down on "stupid" questions, I think the Wiki could be improved to be more intuitive and accessible. There is a lot of great information there, but some of it lacks the context needed to teach n00bs WHY they are doing something, rather than just how to do it. That makes them less confident in what they're doing, and less able to work out how to do other things on their own in the future.

More detailed explanations/documentation (not just in the Wiki but in downloads/sticky threads too) might be a pain in the ass to develop, but could save a lot of those stupid quesions down the road.

There should also be a thorough Wiki-prune to remove outdated information, as that just makes things even more confusing for newcomers.

Just my n00b 2 cents.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Daniel Wee:
I agree that a better Wiki could help but that should not absolve the newbie from responsibility. Someone suggested that the senior members should not berate newbies because they were themselves newbies at one point as well. It should be remembered that back then, they didn't even have a Wiki and had to do all the hard work themselves. The question is why the current newbies should expect to enjoy the fruits of the labors of the senior contributors and yet expect to be spoon-fed?

It is true that there is a steep learning curve involved but perhaps that should be a sign that flashing experimental ROMs just isn't something the incompetent should be attempting at all in the first place. The fact is some level of intelligence and competency is required to deal with the potential problems that could arise from flashing these ROMs, and newbies lacking such background will be in no position to properly assess the risk(s) they may be undertaking, much less resolve the problem at a later stage.

Perhaps it is symptomatic of the instant-gratification generation but the onus is on the newbie. Nobody owes them anything, even a well written Wiki (for which they can be thankful that there is even one, thus already cutting down their research tremendously). If they're not prepared to spend the time to plough through the posts, to learn to search (or can't figure out the search system), or too dull to understand the issues related to computing platforms, maybe they should consider waiting for a manufacturer-supported solution to their needs rather than burdening the developer community with their consumer needs.

There are legitimate questions and I am pretty sure no one is complaining about those. Even ROM chefs would probably welcome bug reports etc. It's the attitude, I believe, not the questions per se, that's the problem. "Ungrateful" is the word I was looking for here.

Daniel
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] venelar:
This is my first post here. Love the forum and thanks to the chefs. I'm amazed at what you guys can pull off with these phones.

I'm all for the iron fisted approach as well. Also, a 30day ban on posting after registration would be great. "Search" and "RTFW" are all I've done and I've managed to get by just fine.

Search, Read the wiki, and donate!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] ach2:
I don't think some of the restrictions (10 days membership before allowed to post etc) will work, but paying for the forums will... this could work as follows:

1. WIKI free to all - members or not.

2. Viewing forums free to all.

3. Posting to forums to ask questions - annual membership subscription ($10, £10, 10Euro or whatever).

4. Posting in general - members only.

5. Posting ROMS, CABS, other software - free to members. Also, if not a member there should be a single thread to ask a mod if the software is worthy of free membership.

Of course, paying for membership deserves some level of reward such as:

1. No unwarranted abuse (mod controlled) - although there will always be some flaming, and a lot if this is also lighthearted.

2. Forum downloads locked to non-members.

3. FTP site locked to non-members.

After all, these sites cost money to run so the most beneficial parts (ROMS, cabs etc) should be paid for.

Also, I don't know how this could work, but if money starts to come into the site, maybe members could vote a token reward for other members who have benefitted the forum the most (such as a beer for JJ and shoes for his misses :) )

Just some ideas to kick around - anything to stop this forum gong too far downhill and also to prevent a brain drain (maybe even to convince JJ to keep on cooking for everyones benefit).
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] venelar:
Probably the best idea so far.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Arktronic:
I see a major problem with this. Around 95% or more of the people who post here already own a Hermes device for which they paid themselves. These things are expensive, so what's another $10? Moreover, the really annoying people that are the topic of this thread will get much more annoying because (I can almost guarantee this) they will see the $10 as a support subscription, entitling them to personal questions and answers without reading any of the previous ones. "I paid to ask these questions, so someone better answer them!" - that kind of ****.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Lowglide:
I, like probably several others, have been on this forum for a few months and not made many, if any posts. The reason for me is simple, ALL of my questions have been answered by reading previous posts and the wiki. Or, if I haven't found the answer, by the time I get done researching it someone else, usually with a LOT more experience has by that time made a post covering it.

I can fully sympathize with the frustration that some of the expert people on here are going through. The field that I work in has left me at the end of the day thinking there wasn't enough money or beer in the world to get me back to work the next day (until I get home and see the stack of bills waiting that is). Making people pay $$ will not solve the problem, just change the focus since a person that bricks their device will then feel they are "owed" a fast response to their cry for help. I like the idea about putting a simple set of question and answers, or how about a timeout period on reading pages on the wiki, each page requires xx number of seconds displayed before moving to the next page and so forth till you get to the download link? Maybe after a certain point of seniority, the timeouts would expire so it wouldn't be an issue? Same goes for posting? I do not know what capabillities this forum has, but if it slows down a person and makes them actually have to wait and think, it might not be a bad thing.

Just my two cents worth.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] crazyC:
Doesn't bother me much, but just thinking aloud (sorry, former auditor...) but paying for membership raises some issues.

Firstly, on a sheer organisational front for whoever owns the forum etc - don't really know how it works etc but I think it changes things a bit behind the scenes.

Secondly -at the moment we are all merrily using versions of the ROMS that have not been released, and even when released, by cooking them, we are surely breaking the terms under which they were released etc etc. Now whilst this is currently done for the good of mankind so to speak, ie not for profit, just to improve our devices and their functioning - (although technically still wrong I think) paying for access to such software just might push it that little bit further over the line. This might be the case certainly for say our friends at MS, who may take an even more active view if this becomes known as a site where you pay to get access to what Microsoft considers to be illegal software.

Whilst I would not want to rule out the option of a pay to join site, I suspect that it has rather more ramifications than have been discussed so far.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Lowglide:
Another thing I noticed is that there are a lot of suggestions for things to be done, but several of them seem to be pretty manpower intensive. I don't think that these are realistic options. Just in the length of time I was typing my previous post, it came up on two pages away from where I started. Hmm, maybe I said to much...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Kassad:
I second these points (also removed one I dont second :-). This forum needs to be re-structered and imho based on quality, not quantity. I especially like the post-rate system, very democratic :-)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] ach2:
Very true but as with all clubs, rules should be clearly explained before signing up. This can include abusive or pointless threads being removed, warnings to members and ultimately expulsion from the forum.

Personally I'd leave this set of forums open and just start a new subscription forum running side by side. If people want to post dumb questions without reading let this be the repository for them. If JJ, Kyphur, LSVW, DES etc want to post new ROMS give them a safe haven in a paid for area. That way the people who don't read won't find the new ROMS, and the people who do read will already have learn't enough to realise that £$10 is good value for the XDA premium service.

I reckon that after a while these forums will die off because nothing new and useful will be posted (but old stuff for 'beginners' will still be available), and the new premium service will thrive in a more structured and beneficial way...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Arktronic:
The more I think about it, the more the "no post period" idea makes sense. It is very beneficial in that it will force new users to read before even being able to post, as mentioned earlier. It's unlikely that they'll forget about it for e.g. a month and then come back and start whining because these are usually impatient people, so they'll either be forced to read or be forced to just completely forget about it. The mods will only have to make sure to kill any BugMeNot accounts that may exist.

@ach2 - another problem with paid forums is that sometimes we want experts here who may not own an HTC device or may have no interest in paying a subscription fee. Mikelspikel comes to mind - he's on the Aximsite forums, and he helped during the initial stages of Widcomm development. Maybe invite-only forums would solve this. However, I have very mixed feelings about segregating users like this, so I can't really endorse either... (hmm, I've mentioned Widcomm twice in this thread already, and I've never even installed it - weird!)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] macaw68:
waiting period and limit on pm's

I know i have a low post count, but that is because i read. I think the waiting period(at least a week) before posting is the best idea so far. and alos if we could put a limit on n00bs, including myself, from pming the mods, rom cookers, etc. would help as i think this is what really pushed jj over the edge. just look at the wmxl .3 closed beta and you can see it is happening way too much. just my 2 cents and i will miss the black editions.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Lowglide:
If there is a waiting period for posts, why not alos institute a tiered system forthe downloads? Make available the less "dangerous" downloads like Sleuth's PTT immediately and keep the Radio ROMS unavailable for a month or whatever is decided?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Arktronic:
Then we're no better than the carriers themselves.

We need to watch where we're heading or else we may end up somewhere we didn't want to be even though we had the best intentions at heart. This isn't directed specifically at you, Lowglide, but at everyone suggesting steps that would radically change these forums. It's vitally important to see what exactly we're proposing and what it could lead to in the future.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] aeroke:
I just want to express my sympathy to all you guys working your butt of to help me and others. :rolleyes:

As a member for only a few months now, I didn't really need to ask questions as everything was allready answered or documented in the WIKI. (thx to all contributors)

At this point I even cook my own, more personalised roms and started to dissect more and more the file structure of the ROMS. This all thx to the widely available info here.

It's sad to see what's happening now (eg jasjamming's Black edition).

Personally, I don't know what is the best solution to avoid the deterioration of this forum due to noob's, but moving things out of the public xda_dev is also punishing a lot of other 'good' members who rely on the info of the experts to improve their 'Hermes experience' :D

Anyways, just an opinion of a gratefull member
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] crazyC:
Just a thought....

Not an argument for or against the private forum idea, but just take it a step further down the line.

A group of developers, or a developer will release software to a select number of people, and it will only be supported within that group. Obviously, as is the way of the world, copies will leak - even MS can't stop that.

As there will be no official support, a forum will probably develop made from those who are not in the exlcusive group, to provide self help, support and development to people using the software. Some of those in the exclusive group may or may not delve into this new forum to offer advice etc, potentially under different names so as to not reveal their identities to the original developer (for fear of losing access to the original software). Over time, this forum will develop as will the expertise - not everyone who has the skills will want to, or be invited to, join the exclusive club.

Taking it further, the people in this forum will start to release modified versions of the software themselves, providing support through the forum.

One day this may even be so successful that it attracts worldwide attention, and lots of outsiders start logging on just to get the software, and posting stupid questions because they have not bothered to read or search the forum. Quickly the problem expands as threads become blocked with silly questions, which make it harder to search for the answers, thus generating more questions.

The pace of development increases rapidly, making the problem even worse.

One day it all becomes too much, and tensions between noobs and non-noobs spills over, causing the new developers to withdraw their support. Instead, they restrict themselves to an exclusive group, but as is the way of the.......

Ah sod it there we go again.

Was just pondering the issues that have arisen in the last day or so when the irony of the situation struck me.

I suppose it is time I got on with my life after all the time I have spent following this forum recently.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] ach2:
Interesting thoughts - quite the amateur philosopher (or pro philosopher:) ) - you're right, history does repeat itself, but we at least have the opportunity here to realise there is a problem and there are loads of clever people here who could come up with a solution.

Problem as I see it is that maybe there are too many people willing to make the decision on what to do (myself included), but who actually has the authority to make the decisions about how this forum is run? Someone out there actually set up this forum and someone must be administering all the paypal donations.

I suspect the responsible people are the very senior members or mods so maybe we should post suggestions but leave the decision as to the correct course of action to them - after all they started this in the first place, and a damn good job they did of it. But whatever their decision we have to respect it, after all it is really THEIR forum with all of us as interlopers (good or bad). (Interestingly, many of the seniors and mods seem to be keeping their distance and not getting involved in this thread too much).

I stumbled on this site by accident while searching for a particular answer on google. In the short time I've been a member I've learned things I didn't even realise I wanted to know but now find invaluable, turning my $500 phone into $500 computer in the process.

What I want from this is open information, intelligent debate (also sometimes humorous and pointless) with as many tools, cabs, fixes and ROMS as possible.

What I don't want is for the people who started all this to just quietly leave and start their own closed forum elsewhere. I'm sure the tools already published will allow some of us to develop to their level of expertise but it will take a long time without their help.

However, human nature and technology being what they are, the Hermes will probably be a thing of the past and everyone will move on to a new device and forum before this problem is sorted out:(
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] crazyC:
Philosopher? No - accountant

(Grabs coat and runs for the door)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] mablan:
just an opinion...

Regarding this issue that is becoming a problem in the forum, (people posting questions without searching first) I've seen the most voted solution is to force people to wait for some time before been able to make post... this could be helpfull but won't ensure that those new suscribers will read the wiki or the forum in that time...

In another forum (dont remember wichone) when you join the comunity can not post in the forum unless you make your first post in a section named "presentation area" or some like that...that first post must include certain information like the device you have, the ROM, radio, etc.and it has to be aproved by the moderator before it apears in the board and as said before are not allowed to post any other thing before this aproval.

Maybe something like that could be used here...I know this will increase too much the work of the mods..but maybe could be an option that the firts post of the new members can be retained untill a moderator or senior member aproves it; and if that first post is not aproved then you can not be able to post anything ... that could force people to read...and could decrease the number of post that ask for things answered a million times before.

Another thing that we could use here is try to avoid postings that just say "thanks", "downloading it", "will try it later", and stuff like that inside the threats of the new ROMs...maybe we are not making dumb questions, but still spaming the threats and making a little harder the search for solutions or information...

As I said this is just my personal opinion trying to help ...

even that I have few post, I really like this site and thanks to this forum and the developers here now I have a TyTN with WM6; a bootloader "foolproof", extended rom used for storage an many more better things than when I first got it...

Regards;

Mablan
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] thuggin:
I think its pretty jacked up when the "cookers" are not getting the respect. They are not getting paid for this (maybe get donations) but we all benefit.

Searchability is a problem, but reading is fundamental! When you have a ROM release, and you get 100 fricken people asking where the keyboard cab is.... makes me want to pull my eyes out!

It takes me 2-3 days to decide if I want to flash because I have to read before acting. I want others to make mistakes before I take the plung.

I just think that you should just do a better job at ignoring some folks.:D
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] JasenR:
I agree, my vote is for the wait 30 days (ok, 3 weeks) to post or PM. Then when someone pops in to download the latest rom and something doesn't work just the way they want it to they will have no choice but to read and learn.

If you want to go beyond that you could create one open thread (or area) where those new folks could post while they are restricted from normal posting. If someone wants to read those post and offer advice they can. This would certainly allow the new folks to see how fast garbage collects in a thread!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] hasanj4:
One thing we should realise - is that many repeated and annoying questions are asked because some threads are getting rediculously long

- and get exponentially longer by these same questions.

I would suggest all downloads and important info are posted in the first page.

Obviously this takes lots of work and someone has to do it !!!

Just an idea
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] Shaun33:
Update The Wiki

Is this not the sole purpose of the wiki. When a ROM is released another wiki page is creted.

All mirrors and fixes can be added to it. This is resource that we *ALL* have to work on.

If the forum should support the wiki not the wiki support the forum.

Look at wikipedia, one of the most usefull sites on the net, and its not a forum.

Once you find a real bug (not kdb light, et al) with a rom edit a Bugs wiki page and share the knowledge.

As you see ive got a low post count, but 90% are helping ppl, and i joined less than a month ago. Nice N00bs exist.;)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] joej:
Yup, but I think we should take it further in order to make it more structured. Some very good suggestions here.

My $0.02 bit :

1. No posts for 30 days after they joined (whoever joined to get the ROMs will be forced to read through all the Wiki and Stickies plus use the search). Hopefully this teaches them to be more able to self-help themselves after the period.

2. Implement a points system which only users with a certain number of cookie points can post, and more senior members can take these points away depending on the posts made. This can also take some load off the moderators.

I will try to compile a full list of suggestions later as this thread is getting long too.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam ROM Development] themonkbythesea:
Pay per hour help for newbies?

Root cause seems to be lack of appreciation and contribution by newbies for hardwork that is done by seniors. Dont do away with the newbies, but rather let them show you appreciation in the form of monetary contributions. And with popularity of PPC, only gonna be more newbies, so lets benefit form it, not burden. I'm a junior member, but was an bad newbie once and somttimes still I am. I have learned to do my reasearch before asking, and i do, a lot!! 90% of my answers I find, but the 10% i get lost. Let me pay you to help me. You want appreciation and contribution....well, i want to give it with $$$. I have been helped by a lot of people on here (kudos to Jwright and others) so would have no problem paying for specifc help. Hell, when I was newer and foolish, paid clubimate like $60 for memebership. Heres my suggestion:

If your a newbie, apply strict posting rules, but allow viewing forums and wiki. If newbies need more help, then let newbies pay hourly for specific help? You get to ask all the "stupid questions" you want for, i dont know, $10, $25, $50 an hour? Id be thrilled to pay one of you guys some $$$ for one-on-one expert help. There are other sites, but nowhere near expertise and once comraderie as on here. (If any experinced developers intersted in making some $$$, then pm me)

As for the hostility, it f$%@# makes me go apes$@#$. If your a technical person, and this is a technical site, then keep your language technical....unless "asshole" and "****" are programming terms i missed reading the wiki? I'm all for hostility, in the ring, you wanna call me an asshole, do it before we spar in the ring, and we'll see who the asshole is. But keep it off this site. ..take my $$$, not my self respect!