yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[About XDA developers] shogunmark:
I will be the first one to admit im still a NOOB... i came here to read and learn and help others when i can.. I certainly dont know it all (but dont tell anyone) :D ... with that being said.. NOW FLAME ME or i will ban you, lol j/k
[About XDA developers] Sleuth255:
@emann30:

Exactly. You've put your finger right on the essential power of this community. Now STFU and go put your "solid state schematic" knowledge to work & figure out how to do a cheap, software controlled LNA for the Hermes gps project... :D :D
[About XDA developers] Sleuth255:
regarding our moderation style:

We are developers too. As such, we are your peers not your overlords. This board originates in Holland which has a historical tolerance for freedom of expression. Tolerance is the style of XDA-Developers. We prune only what we must and we do it with great reluctance. This is our collective community and it becomes what we collectively make it.

Right now, what it is is one of the greatest developer sites on the planet. I'd say the attitude works.
[About XDA developers] CWKJ:
Well said.

By the way, is there a way I can locate my first post as I cannot remember although I have post less than you (PM me if possible) :D

Edit: Thanks Shogunmark. I know my first post now.
[About XDA developers] LegolasTheElf:
I'd like to possibly give me opinion, as someone who DOES n00b bash. I see it as a means to an end. It's definately not something that I would LIKE to waste my time on; it's not something I particularly enjoy. It's done out of necessity. Let me expand on that.

I see that there are essentially three ways to deal with n00bs.

1) Respond to all their dumb questions. But, that will just make the problem worse, not better.

2) Ignore them. But, we've all seen the 'bumps' after a 5-min wait after posting the original question. Ignoring will just make page 1 filled with n00b questions

3) Attack them. It's actually more of a public shaming and public humiliation than an attack. By shaming the n00bs publically, they are more cautious to post for fear of a public display of their lack of intelligence.

People on here want to believe, at least at some level, that they are smart enough to do the type of stuff others do to their phones. By publically shaming them, and pointing out they are intelligently inferior to others, they tend to go away. It becomes a place that they don't like, a place where they do not feel comfortable. We should not worry about that though. The lazy-n00b does not worry about wasting other people's time. We need to take an Objectivist attitude towards this board. Let the cream rise to the top, ignore the intolerance, uphold the integrity. This is a developer website. It is not a help-desk. If this board is to continue to exist in any meaningful way, we need to cull the heard and keep only those people who can actually contribute; not those who just want free roms.

There is, of course, a 4th way to deal with the n00bs.. Heavy-handed moderation; but, this has been decided in the negative already. I understand the need for a libertarian approach to moderation; but, if you allow mods to enforce a libertarian ideal of allowing n00bs to post drivel, then no one can be surprised that the same attitude must allow the n00b attacks. It is two sides of the same sword. To allow one without the other is not possible.
[About XDA developers] todd_jg:
I won't quote the entire LegolasTheElf Manifesto for the sake of real estate, but I gotta say, I could not agree more. Good posters will not have that happen. Assuming that heavy handed moderation is NOT the right way, then the only option is to discourage lazy posts. Shame is a powerful motivator. The only "contribution" that it discourages is like the "contribution" your cat makes in his litter pan.
[About XDA developers] shogunmark:
This is the exact reason why you wont make mod... The most intelligent thing in here was #2 and that would have been if you would have quit talking after the first period...

The best way to deal with the noobs is to not reply at all.. if everyone ignores the idiotic posts (like i should be doing with this one) then it will either:

A. Force them to search to find their answer

B. They will go away since they arent getting help..

Its that simple...
[About XDA developers] LegolasTheElf:
I think you failed English 101. Did you actually understand what I wrote? Or did you just have a gutteral reaction to it and decide that while n00bs should not be moderated, a contributing member of this website SHOULD be? Seriously, I think more people would respect your opinions if they were actually consistent. I'm nothing if not completely consistent in how I see the world, and in how I deal with it.
[About XDA developers] shogunmark:
english 101 and comprehension are 2 different things... so if your going to bash then at least act intelligent and grown up... we are well aware of your consistency..

http://xdaforums.com/show...02&postcount=4

http://xdaforums.com/show...&postcount=762

http://xdaforums.com/show...53&postcount=2

http://xdaforums.com/show...61&postcount=3
[About XDA developers] LegolasTheElf:
Wow shogunmark! You *can* search! Wow! I'm impressed!

Now, be a good boy and define 'libertarian', 'objectivism' and give me at least 500 words on the use of shaming by a society in controlling others. :D

But, you know.. I posted a well thought out manifesto outlining my opinion. You simply attacked me. I think those of intelligence around here can understand what's going on. The first words out of your mouth, in response to a well-reasoned opinion, is "That's the reason you'll never make mod".

It's funny; if not for the complete lack of thought you put into it, there is actually irony here. I'll let you figure out what that means on your own though.
[About XDA developers] peezy:
whew gettn hot in here..

<convieniently switching the subject>

This is what the introduction to our forum says:

"If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below."

Maybe it might be a good idea to put a little n00b warning/disclaimer in place of this. Just so when someone says "hey check out xda-developers.com", that person knows what they are getting into at the door, and if they are not an advanced user or developer we can point them somewhere else.

Sleuth summed it up pretty good about 10 posts ago, maybe we would add something to the effect of what he said in the entrance/into to the forum.
[About XDA developers] spastico:
I'm not sure if ignoring them really works.

They seem to just completely ignore the post back one page, or the giant google search sticky at the top. Not to mention the Wiki.

So in this thread, along with all the others along these lines, we continue to hear each sides argument. And this thread can get as long as we want it.

It may be just my imagination, but it really seems that the gurus are getting frustrated.

What can we do?
[About XDA developers] bbobeckyj:
i think i'm too scared to buy a hermes now :D

i agree with shogun, and either way, to shame someone if you choose to, only requires displaying how easy the answer to a question is
[About XDA developers] JamesAllen:
Suggestion

I am a "noob" and will never be more than that. I have upgraded to WM6, upgraded my radio twice, added and installed CAB files, and all successfully becuase I have spen hours reading the posts and threads. Some of these threads are over 80 pages. It's daunting for a "noob". The search feature makes it somewhat easier, but not easy. I have been in customer service for almost 40 years, building customer service organizations including online service.

All of this is to say that I am no novice to online support. This forum is not a vendor supplied support function where customers MUST be serviced. This is a voluntary forum. I never thought I would say this but my recommendation would be NOT to answer questions where the answer has been posted before. Don't spend the time and effort to point someone to an answer that already exists. The fact that you found the answer means others could as well, if they tried. It takes work to find an answer but it's necessary. The ramifications if not done correctly are far too serious.

People want a quick answer with the least amount of effort. That's human nature. That approach on this site will get them into trouble. If you provide the quick answer, it will lead to another question, followed by another quick answer ad nauseum. The best approach I have seen so far is to point them to the post or thread with the answer. That takes far more work than the question deserves (if an answer already exists). Why not come up with a standard response that anyone can provide (not necessarily one of the experts like "AAE", Answer Already Exists. Leave it at that. Let people rant, rave, cry and complain about lack of response. Look, giving someone an "AAE" took as much effort as they put into researching their question. Their question deserves no more effort than that. It is not unreasonable to match your effort to theirs, and giving them an "AAE" is a response.

Just some thoughts from someone who is a self trained "noob".
[About XDA developers] LegolasTheElf:
Neh, I only bite when you don't even *try* to find the answer yourself. If there is a good-faith effort, and I feel like answering it (hey, I'm human too :) ), I will answer politely and concisely. Typically, I'll help the person locate the information rather than giving the "answer". It's worked well, and can help turn a n00bishly leaning poster into a contributor.
[About XDA developers] spastico:
I really don't want to see this thread be an endless run of differing opinions.

Many have weighed in, including the mods.

Like I said giving them the link isn't the answer.

Most agree that bashing isn't the answer either.

So we really need to a solution and put it to work.

Setting back and letting it happen will turn this place into HOFO.

Perhaps a poll with options like show them how to fish, or hand them a fish, or ignore them, or tip over their boat.

Again, I firmly believe ignoring them doesn't work. Some other slightly informed noob just answers them, or provides them a link, escalating the redundency.
[About XDA developers] peezy:
I think that the wiki, google search, etc are GREAT functions and highly useful for people who know how to use them. But its more probable that a new member will post 1-2 useless posts or previous answered questions before:

1) stumbling onto wiki/google sticky

2) they are directed to these functions

3) they get flamed

Is it possible to consolidate this information? NO..these no need to. However, if someone were to take the initiative (which I am considering with the help of a mod) we can create a 'START HERE' link for new memebers which outlines some of the concerns relevant to this thread, and this link/thread will:

1) Describe what this forum is about

2) Outline the problems we are facing with clutter

3) Re-iterate the importance of using the wiki/search functions

4) Include some search techniques

5) Warn 'n00bs' of the high potential for getting flamed for not reading this link

6) Any other useful info you guys would like to include

Before you fire back that this has already been done, I will agree, but with the rate that this site is growing, this information is scattered and not placed at the root/entrance to this site. Maybe we can incorporate this into the registration process?

So to all the MODS out there, I am willing to put some effort into this if we can post it in a place where ALL new members will see it. With this in place, at least those of us with a conscious could justify our flames ;)
[About XDA developers] JamesAllen:
For what it's worth, these threads get clogged with the following types of posts:

1. Report issues and observations

2. Report issues, ask for resolutions

. More likely "demand" a solution (implying experts "broke" my device")

3. Make recommendations

4. Complaints

5. Flames

All of these (and I know there are more), make it difficult to wade through these forums/threads/posts. If anyone is considering revamping how these forums are used, if it were possible to segregate these themes but tie them to a master thread, I think this would be helpful.
[About XDA developers] emann30:
We can go on and on...........

Just read my first post about nOOb bashing ( its on page 8) , this says it all and sums it up in a short paragraph. This particular thread " nOOb Basshing " will get to HEATED because everyone feels strong about their opinions. Lets continue to learn from each other, Seniors and nOObs, and keep this website moving forward. Everyone knows about xda developers and what its about. Even in other pocket pc forums they always lead you back to XDA DEVELOPERS.

LONG LIVE,

THE SENIOR NOOB:cool:
[About XDA developers] spastico:
Noob bashing is not the solution.

But something has to be done.
[About XDA developers] Sleuth255:
Here's how things work here (check thread history and you'll see it happening time and time again).

1. A new device comes out

2. The hardcore developers latch onto it and slowly unravel its secrets (this is the best place to be on this site IMHO btw). Information is freely exchanged between continents. You wake up in the morning to see what was found out on the other side of the world.... You make a discovery yourself and contribute, chipping away.

3. Spy vs. Spy with operators ensues as they read the same info and respond with new IPL/SPL/Hardware

4. Patches are produced, kitchens built, the device is OWN3D

5. Chefs emerge and produce free ROMs that extend the functionality of the device

6. n00bs descend like a swarm of flies looking for the latest & greatest

7. Bashing begins as frustrated chefs are overwhelmed. Posts containing large red letters abound.

8. The developers move on to the next new device

(go to step 1)

The results are high quality ROMs and a few frustrated n00bs. However, thousands more benefit and silently use the information here to make their devices what they were intended to be.

You should've seen the people wandering around MEDC this year sporting XDA ROMs. They were the silent thousands; the ones we do this all for. It was truly heartwarming.
[About XDA developers] spastico:
Nothing, So I guess we will keep on BASHING! :p
[About XDA developers] bbobeckyj:
i agree with sleuth255 - the site works. if you don't like a post, ignore it
[About XDA developers] spastico:
No! I think he said if you don't like a post Bash it!
[About XDA developers] bbobeckyj:
i was agreeing that the site works, regardless of what we think about noobs and their posts. the 'ignore' part was my opinion
[About XDA developers] Sleuth255:
you caught me in the midst of an edit :o After I hit "send" I realized it could be taken that way... Go re-read my post. Its finished now :)

We need to ignore n00bs. Bashing them will not change anything as they will continue to descend every time development gets to step 6. Like ants, squashing one will not stop the rest, nor will it make them think twice.

The silent thousands will continue to benefit though...
[About XDA developers] spastico:
gOOD, i wAS jUST YANKIN YOUr chAIN :D
[About XDA developers] shogunmark:
The best part is that it wasnt an attack... i was simply giving you your answer to the pm, and the irc's where you were begging to be a mod... I suppose i could have simply stated that your personal politics doesnt flow with the xda spirit.. we arent here to noob bash or charge someone $2.50 a minute to fix their phone, nor to charge them for flashing cooked roms..

So are you going to call sleuth an idiot also for pretty much posting the same solution i gave?
[About XDA developers] Sleuth255:
I've got cosmic mod powers... I'll ban Legolas back to middle earth if he does.. :D

muahahahahahahahahhaahahaha
[About XDA developers] cdyat:
Someone got themselves banned - speaking as an average member who gives a bit and takes a bit and has read most of the posts on this hermes site they won't be missed. Thanks Moderators
[About XDA developers] shogunmark:
well it was only a 24hr ban.. they will be allowed back tomorrow.. however with that being said he is being watched very closely(actually has been for a while).. if the behvior continues then he is gone for good.
[About XDA developers] spastico:
I'm sure it's just a little turbulence.

But, there are some really scary things going on around here.
[About XDA developers] shogunmark:
Agreed!!!!
[About XDA developers] xplode:
I have not read this entire thread but i will just state my opinion on these things, I will repeat myself and tell you my history in the forums. I was noob once, WM5 on BA had its first steps. At that time i registered to this forum because of the rom archive, i wanted to change my device language from german to english, i have simply readed WIKI and have succeeded. At this time i have upgraded to 1.42 WM2003SE T-Mobile NL rom. After a week or so i decided to try WM5, the roms were slow and unstable at that time, but that did not crushed my enthusiasm, and as i followed instructions posted here by mamaich (and added to WIKI) i have succeeded the WM5 rom upgrade, since then i have tryed every WM5 rom for my device. There is nothing hard in rom upgrading, you just have to understand what you read, and this applies not just to rom upgrading but to everything. I may asked few times stupid questions as noob but i alway ben polite and really tried to understand what the other users answer and followed their directions. If i was redirected to wiki i am trying to find the answer there and in the most of the time i did found answers there. Now i have published some roms and try to support them, but i still have noob questions like how to hard (soft) reset, or how to put my device in bootloader mode, i have answered a lot of times to these exact questions but they keep asking them, and if i send people to read wiki they jump on me that i am bashing noobs, which is not right. I am right from my point of view, i am tired to answer the same questions over and over again (it is not interesting to me to do it). I will gladly answer question which is interesting and i have never tryed to do something specific with my device.

Sorry that i had typed this boring stuff but i really wanted to show my point of view. The reason was that there were some posts in BA section that we do not help the noobs, which is wrong. They just have to learn to read WIKI, try what is written and then to ask answered questions (i call them stupid questions)

If you are bored from the typed above just skip it
[About XDA developers] spastico:
Not boring at all.

Infact, I rather enjoyed your post.

Nice thoughts.
[About XDA developers] GreatGrey:
I keep seeing people refering to this as a community or village, and it is. Unfortunately, it does have a high number of village idiots, as many of the more senior members are wont to remind us.

Yes, I'm a noob. New to the device, but not PDAs in general (palms, iPaqs in the past)

It took me 2 months to get the nerve to make my first post here, and 2 days to compose it. I didn't get flamed, which I took as a nascent sign of success.

I

do

have problems with guys asking the top dogs simple questions like how to adjust my backlight duration in WM6, that kind of stuff just shows the poster to be lazy, and having the resulting flame war keep that post at the top, while more informative, higher level posts wander down the list to obscurity. (I also hate run on sentences :) )

I wish I had a good solution for the Moderators here. I've truly been amazed by the level of good hackery, tips and tricks I've found here, and I'd hate to see some unthinking people ruin it.
[About XDA developers] uniqueboy:
I think a lot of noobs wind up here simply because they want some free software for their devices. When google sends them here they soon spot new roms and all the cool stuff everyone has done, so they register, download a rom from a link and get into a big old mess.

My thought is that most of these people would never even register if say when they clicked on a cab to download it, the system didn't invite them to join. If instead of the invitation they were just sent to rapidshare or somewhere else to download the cab. I guess we don't want people clogging up our server.
[About XDA developers] stuarthurst:
Just been reading this thread with interest and I have some observations...

Am I a noob? - I am when it comes to a technical discussion on the Alpine. (My personal favourite). However, when I first owned one, it took me a bit of time to read and research.

Sure, I could have simply posted with ignorance and sometimes I have had to do that as the search facility can be complicated.

The How to or a What to do thread would be useful providing it was made read only to all users. Make a hardcore group that can have read/write access to the majority of their relevant area of expertise. Anyone wanting to join this group would have to prove a certain amount of ability. This way, post counts are minimal by the "noobs"... However, the site needs to have a means to support them too.... so they have a single area on the forum that they can post to requesting help / information. The intelligent noobs will post their exact requirements, the idiots that can't be bothered will simply say "I want this rom or WM5/6 for the alpine - or when is it out...." Then by auto pruning this thread after 2 days keeps the mods work down, and any idiotic requests fall by the wayside.

The request that makes sense and is a genuine concern could then be "copied" andpasted by an experienced member into say an answers thread or FAQ thread and that way the information is passed out and can still be searched on by "noobs"

However, I for one, do sometimes panic and ask a question before actually sitting back and diagnosing and sometimes want some reassurance that all is not lost.

Anyways - I think that this site is great for information, providing you can find what you want - and that's not always easy. Thanks all who took time to read and possibly reply
[About XDA developers] xplode:
As shogunmark said already everyone should read and learn, some noobs are already doing this, as the examples in this thread show, and they are not getting bashed. If everyone is like them whis thread will be pointles, but no, most of them are too lazy to read and learn and want comix like solutions for their problems with pictures which 6 year old kids will understand. We have no time to provide such answers (i have already maded few pictures for hard and soft resseting and entering bootloader mode which are posted in Blueangel WM5 For Beginners, but it takes time) but we can do similar wiki pages for morons (kids, lazy and or stupid people - no offence anyone) for every device which will be a lot easyer to understand by noobs. If we make more user friendly wiki the stupid noob questions may be reduced (we can not stop them), to more acceptable count
[About XDA developers] uniqueboy:
Maybe registration could be a lot more complicated and involve the compulsory provision of details like imei, rom version, radio etc. so that anyone joining would have to go to the wiki to find out some fundamentals first.
[About XDA developers] apd:
I disagree. The wiki is perfectly simple. The problem is that the problem noobs are too laxy to find it / read it / search the forums. I still think the answer is as per my previous stab at it! http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=1255517#post1255517
[About XDA developers] peezy:
I like it...