yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] trashcan:
Thanks a lot for providing us such an in-depth information. If we can just solder the antenna onto the hermes and make the GPS work..I'll be so darn excited. Thanks again.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Having done the original Tungsten T3 battery enhancement, I can say its a massive adrenalin rush doing hardware mods.... not for the fainthearted. For those of us who live for adrenalin rushes, take the first time you flashed a new rom on your $700 TyTN and multiply by 10 :D:D

Producing a kit for this may be a challenge since RF components need special care and soldering will always be required.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Olipro:
the truth is, if this proves to be necessary in terms of work-effort... I can visualize a variety of disasters by people with cheapo soldering irons attempting a hack 'n' slash job on their Hermes.

Personally I'm game for having a shot at this although it means that enabling GPS is essentially out the window for Joe. Q. Average
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
agreed.... we had a number of major solder hack jobs with people trying the relatively simple job of soldering a protection circuit onto battery leads. We're talking miniature work here with 18watt pencils. Still, there might be a way to package it up. We'll have to prototype it for sure to determine difficulty.

I'd really like to see the breakthrough in terms of gps chip communication first though...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
All good points if this plays out it would not be a joe average project.

But any good engineer or tech could do it.

I had planned on soldering the components and testing them before sending it out to the person who would try it. I have 4 different GPS boards and can test it briefly on each. At least we can eliminate it as the road block to success, it is the smallest most benign solution I could come up with.... I still suspect the lack of a bandpass explains the weird reception and lack of lock when subjected to a repeater....
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
It might be possible to add an RF Amp and miniature strip antenna such that it only needs a connection to the baterry terminal, clamp not solder, the antenna would pick up the GPS and retransmit a narrow signal band directly into the back of the phone with a stick on patch antenna, A mini repeater so to speak, this would be easier than a mod, but I am still concerned as to why the GPS repeater didnt work.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
What if the GPS antenna pin on the RFR6250 wasn't connected at all? Maybe that would account for the repeater failure. Also, the repeater test doesn't jibe with bobsterina's test unless he mis-interpreted the NMEA stream (a possibility I suppose, given your recent post on this). One of the two tests must contain invalid results due to some sort of testing error IMO.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] SecureGSM:
I guess, as soon as solution is found and determined, one can launch paid services. (GPS modding Hermes handset).

I would gladly pay for such a service personaly if available.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
just finished reading the gps driver thread. Nicely done superdave! Looks like we have our link now but no satellites seen. So, its onto the hardware mod.

Looks like I gotta go load the trinity radio tomorrow.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] suineg:
jpogge PM me a website to order all the parts you need and a website and your address and such and if it is within my price range I will buy the parts for you to try a working concept.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Suineg, thanks for the offer but my contacts in the distributor world are providing me with 4 free parts of each of the components I need. I pays to have a good working relationship with these guys. I dont want to post data sheets , or schematics until I build and test, Although I have a +99% confidence in the design, experience tells me to be prudent and post results not speculation. I should have the parts late next week as the dielectric chip antenna have already been shipped, if the SAW filters arrive the same time I need 2 days to build and test the circuit at which time I will offer the device to some one sleuth or dutty feel is best to test. If all goes well I will post the design, and supporting docs including multiple sources so others can either try it or we can talk as a group about providing a kit....
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Guy_Incognito:
Hey ho,

Reposted this from the other GPS thread, as it seems to have been lost in the noise there.... or did someone try it?

------------------------------------
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] stinger32:
Jpogge--> if this works out can you build and sell thoose units for thoose who not have the skills to build it?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] dutty:
i'm looking forward to see your results, the way you're handling it is surely the best. good job so far!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
I know people who have small businesses that might be willing to provide a kit, it might be tricky to make sure that the cost of materials production, and shipping dont make the addition comparable to say a $70 US BT GPS, I dont beleive this to be the case, with a resonable profit to make it worth the production companys doing, it should be < $40... I wont know until I test though.. This is what I meant when I said maybe we could kit it, by kit I meant an assembled unit ready for install, not a do it yourself with components...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
An interesting note I have some Silver impregnated epoxy used in some RF structures, which I have sucessfully used for connections, It is quite expensive beingsilver, if we could get one of the manufacturers to sell it in bulk prefilled small plastic tubes, think 1" long tooth paste type, then any kit created would include conductive epoxy allowing the user to glue the connection eliminating the soldering iron...this is a little better for those who havent done any micro solder work..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
@jpogge: can you get your hands on a pinout for the RFR 6250?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Sleuth- No, you basically have to sign a non disclosure agreement and sign up for IP licencsing fees, > $10k before they release technical docs. This way they protect their high price, IP, and those companiesthat did pay the licensing fees. Weneed detailed photos of the trinity GPS and radio... not just the antenna, the antenna and leads and the RFR 6250
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] b-sstosi:
GPS hardware initial parameters

Hi all,

I just spent few hours reading 70 pages related to GPS functionality. Now when you solved communication with GPS device (com ports etc) it is maybe good time to tweak its parameters. I used SirfTech with my Pocket Loox to switch it to Sirf mode from NMEA mode. Settings do now survive hard reset on the Loox N560, so my guess is that internal hardware is missing some initial parameters so it could work properly. I don’t have Hermes but somebody of you could try following or just play with NMEA parameters:

1) run SirfTech

2) open the port: "Comm" in the bottom menu, choose your GPS port and speed (default on Loox is COM8, 9600), click on the top "Open" button, click on "Ok"

3) switch GPS from NMEA to SiRF mode: "NMEA" in the bottom menu, "Switch to SiRF", "Ok"

4) close the port and reopen it in SiRF mode: "Comm" in the bottom menu, "Close", "Open" again, "Ok"

5) switch GPS back to NMEA with new parameters: "SiRF" in the bottom menu, choose the "Switch to NMEA Protocol" tab, set GGA 1, GLL 2, GSA 3, GSV 3, RMC 1, VTG 1, MSS 1, baudrate 57600, click on the "Set" button, "Ok"

6) close the port: "Comm" in the bottom menu, "Close", "Ok"

7) "Exit"

GPS device SIRF

I-GO works with SIRF GPS devices.

Problem description for Loox N560 is on http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6971 SifTech with useful information is on http://w5.nuinternet.com/s660100031/SirfTech.htm

I would really like to see this working so I could add new functionality to my MTeoR.

Sincerely,

Bambi
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
The SIRF mode is a proprietary protocol of the SIRF Technology Corp. They manufacture GPS Chip sets and processors, including their more recent and very popular SIRFIII, this protocol does not work on any of the other GPS chip sets that I have ever heard, and neither the HERMES nor Trinity contain any of the SIRF Technologies components, so it would be a waste of time to attemp to get a Qualcomm chip to communicate with another companies proprietary protocol. IMHO anyway
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] mrvanx:
I figure the idea isnt to use SIRF mode at all, the software (in the later part of the instructions) is set back to NMEA standard and from what i understood we are trying to get the software to send the initialisation commands to the chip when you set it back to NMEA?! Thus sending a fresh "wake-up" and "set up yourself" signal to it. The SIRF part was just to get the software to abandon any NMEA stuff it was still using, thus allowing a new session when you set it back.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
We're testing whether at@startgps is all that's required with a Trinity now. So far, it seems to be correct. 10 birds with elevation & azimuth data were seen when at@startgps was used on a Trinity. We just need confirmation of GPS lock by letting the test run longer, but I'm over 90% certain right now that the Hermes issue isn't related to the startup commands.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] stinger32:
My trinity has landed and is upgraded to the dopod gps rom, any tests you want me to run on it?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
testing info is in the GPS driver thread. jtech is working on this now as well.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
The GPS bandpass filters arrived today, hopefully the antenna will arrive soon..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Let the hardware mod part of the project begin.... I just did a Hermes to iPAQ comparison using VisualGPS and the results confirm that the antenna is missing.

To this end, I've requested RFR 6250 pinout information from several sources under the guise of educational materials. I've also leveraged my business relationship with several manufacturers to obtain this info.

I'm studying the disassembly instructions in the WiKi now and will be using my 8525 as a mule. Based on mainboard pics of the RFR6250 I believe it will be quite easy to solder directly to the antenna pin on the chip if necessary. However I'll attempt a visual circuit trace with High Rez pics of the circuit area surrounding the correct pin first.

This'll be a piece of cake :)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
I have routed the micro pcb, mounted the matching passives and the SAW bandpass filter, and micro coax, all I need now is the micro antenna dielectrics (due today but didnt arrive) and I will be able to test my antenna, after characterization, I will post pictures and await a guinea pig...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] dutty:
sounds good.. wouldn't mind beeing the pig :P

i have setup a wiki-page for the hermes gps-hardware mod.

i will fill it with details once you have explained your modification in detail.

http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_GPS

i have also updated the gps faq wiki page: http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_GPS_FAQ
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] walshieau:
hand up for the guinea pig...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
I'm in too. I've got a mule 8525 and an 18 Watt Antex for the project.

edit:

Oh yeah, and one other very important tool: an Olympus E-20 with macro focus / camera tripod... :)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] MilanoRex:
I took apart my 8525 yesterday twice to fix the screen alignment issue, it was surprisingly easy. Once you guys get all of the antenna components figured out, I'd be happy to try them out. This is a spare phone, so no worries.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
I'm hoping to get something on the RFR 6250 pinout within a few days. Tomorrow I'll start working with Qualcomm Customer service.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Good Luck, I was a qualcomm customer, we used one of their chips in a 10 Gb switch for a large carrier to tie in their T1 cell towers, they pretty much dont have salesmen so much as lawyers who want several pages of contracts before they give datasheet one. This is why those that filled out the paperwork and use their chips are so silent.. best bet IMHO is to get some topless photos of a trinity, I can probably suss out the GPS circuit if I can see it
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Arktronic:
Maybe you shouldn't post the details - who knows, Qualcomm might actually check this thread!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] cellfreak:
GPS

I finally got .35 loaded and running.

I use to carring a Nextel i860 with the gps built into it. It used the same antenna for signal and the GPS. Not sure if the same could apply in the Hermes.

There is only one contact on the inside of the ant base. I use to work on these phones at a shop. And we got plenty in with destroyed antennas
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Prototype Antenna

Attached is the first prototype,

The antenna showed up, will start testing this week end, for those of you who are anxiously awaiting, by testing I mean with an RF test set and spectrum analyzer. If this matching circuit looks good I will send it off to one of the actual testers..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] walshieau:
looking good guys.... :D:D
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jixxie:
Don't know if it is already posted somewhere, but anyways there is detailed view of RFR6250 in Hermes:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Struck out FTTB on one of my approaches. There's an engineering report of the RFR6250 that actually has the pinout and a section on the GPS (they sent the TOC as a teaser). I requested the pinout diagram only. However, the lady wouldn't release it b/c of NDA with Qualcomm but she referred it up a level for more consideration.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] walshieau:
this is crap... how come we have not seen any dissected photos of the trinity showing the pinouts???
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
In all due respect, Trinity disassembly procedures aren't readily available yet.

However, I've not even been able to find FCC pics yet... Does anybody have an FCC ID for their Trinity handy?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Ask her for the pin number, if she wont release the doc, pin #1 is clearly marked they count up in order, we are looking for the pin number for the GPS pre LNA, minimum, GPS LNA as a secondary.

ALso I was looking over the detail photo, Thanks, Jixie, I can see at least 3 RF matching structures, so if we can get a tip off , we should be able to see which one.

Lastly , see the row of seemingly random holes to the right of the sield. These appear to be ground vias, They tie the ground planes together so that no circulating currents appear near the RF structure. The path down the middle of the rows is typically wher you would fing that wave guid I was talking about, this may be a buried guide, more dificult to design than one on the surface and not as common, but it is a real possibility. Were does the GSM connect in relationship to the RF6250, if its on the back side of this picture but away from this structure then we may have found where the GPS antenna would have connected... Interesting.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Do you think that one of the RF matching structures is actually for the GPS? I'm thinking that there's no associated circuitry. I wonder how many layers the main circuit board has.... I'm thinking that with a bright lightsource I'll be able to trace each pin looking for one that goes no further than the solder pad. Then, based on its location on chip to other known antenna inputs, we may be able to derive the pin. I didn't seen a non LNA input in the block schematics btw...

I can't believe they protect the damn pinout as IP....
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] saudi-brazil:
qualcom

Maybe you already know.

I try to fish a little at

brew.qualcomm.com

http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2006/tech301_rodrigues_chipset.pdf
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Brew's a very good angle that I forgot about! If you are a member you might be able to uncover something. All we need is one little number.....
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Refering to jixies picture and using the qualcomm chip set diagram,

1)The two small squares along the shield wall toward the right of the picture are the GSM receiver Duplexers, and matching circuits/filters, the blue chips are inductors, the tan are capacitors, and the black are resistors, this will be 98% accurate as sometimes there will be black capacitors...

2) The simular bronze square on the opposite side is the UMTS CDMA duplexer, tied into the 6220, Just north of the 6220 is the VCO for both the RFR6250, and the 6220, this makes the triquint part the Power amp (PA) and the signal wire leading to the swithc structure leads to this part G1230 at the top of the open square.

3) Identifying the Power and Ground connections via the plane pour layer (fat traces light green /grey) and the Electrolytic bypass capacitors, leave us with only 10 pins un identified andthey are all along the bottom of the RFR6250 chip where the RF shield wall is just above the push button switches.

Sooooo... I am interested more in a detailed photo that shows what is blocked by the shield wall along the bottom of the picture.

Also my test were positive, however I will remove the SAW filter because press releases of the RFR6250 identify that this is a combination of 3 previous parts, the gps is rgs6200, The technology is called ZIF, reffering to zero IF, or (zero intermediate frequency),it uses SiGe like mos high speed parts, today. SiGe can switch as high a 25GHz at low power so no mixers are needed. No mixers mean direct band RF and therfore filters are less necessary although purists like me like to have as much as possible to support clean signals. This also explains why it almost works without antenna, apparently no saw filter is necessary,,, nice chip..

If this is true we can use micro coax wire slipped under the spacing of the shield, (look to the large solder pads along the shield wall) if there is a typical gap under the shield wall between these solder patches, then we dont need to drill holes in the rf shield. Laso the wire can run along the shield wire behind the switches, and the antenna can be RTV glued to the bare( none grounded patch. since it is < 1mm high we may be able to slip it under the plastic GSM antenna.

Qualcomms own admission of the combining of three chips into one die, and the constraints of available technology, it follows that the RF GSM section is pin 7 - ~26 the output of the RF to the RTR625X is pins 27- 32

Which leaves 37 - 48, and 1- 6, 1 - 6 are not connected, and may be our GPS input pins... There are switches toward the bottom and this is the row

37 - 48 pin 1 is marked, so your assignment for today getsome high quality photos of this area.......
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jixxie:
jpogge, this is the best I have for you now. It's really not so easy to take quality macros of that place :(

I have my TyTN already assembled and working (successfully fixed my screen alignment problem btw) and since it is my primary device I can't dismantle it again (at least until there will be the first guide to solder in the GPS antenna :) ).

Secondly I think it will be needed to drill the hole in sheilding for that small coax because there is no space between the shielding wall and PCB.. And I suppose that hole will have to be in the sheilding wall (no space under nor above the wall), so it will be easier to cut a small piece of the wall off. You will find this out during the first tests..

Having fingers crossed!

attaching another one for you just to be sure in recognizing those smd components..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Thanks, I think this is as good as we can expect until, we get some actual technical documentation to verify.

In the second picture notice th bronzed square are the letters, pcos

This is an Epcos AG dual band filter for the receiver, I.E. definitely the duplexer circuit. I have attached a photshop enhanced zoom of the first photo..

near the shield we have a large trace to a capacitor, and an adjacent structure on the nearby pin. This could be the GPS pre LNA exit and the return path input to the LNA. If this is right we need a single pin perhaps guarded by ground layer on either side.

The following is a WAG and not to be considered anything but an opinion,

Pin 1 looks likely, it has no obvious connection , is on the RF side of the chip, and is surrounded by ground with appropriate spacing for an RF wave guide.

We know the PCB is simular in the trinity but not the same, I dont believe we will be so lucky as to find a place where an antenna was to be soldered. It is likely they all but designed in the antenna and connection, so a bare pin is a possibility. Pin one could also be a power input. a volt meter can verify that.

We need to see the trinity photos, or get a tip off from someone with access to data sheets.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] cyril50:
others pictures

Somes pictures with differents views of rfr chip and gps antenna, all are from the XDA-WIKI, i try to find other ones but i don't find.

We can see that the rfr chip is half hide by sheild on trinity

You do a wonderfull work, good luck
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] walshieau:
ok so is this the antenna on the trinity... what pinouts are on the hermes board in the same place?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Izzard-UK:
Wow, the antenna is really small. If this all works out, could it be that a hardware mod can be developed that doesn't change the outward appearance of the Hermes at all? Until now, I was imaginging something clamped to the outside of the casing, or holes drilled in it and bits poking out.

You guys are doing an awesome job - very exciting to follow the progress. Good luck!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
From the recent photos, the GPS matching network is diretly behind the power button, adjacent to pins 1, and 44- 48 , it looks like the most likely position on the GPS pin to be in this corner.

I have modified my matching network on the antenna board to only a cap and inductor. so even my board just got smaller.

If we can fianlize the GPS pin, we can give it a go....