yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
finally

Wow. I managed to read every thread related to GPS entirely. My gf hasn't even got angry yet. Apparently being nerdy is cute..

To the point!

I'm a developer. I'm not so much interested in the final GPS result of the HTC Hermes so much as the problem solving. As it is I'm new to HTC phones. As far as I can see, all progress has halted while hardware modifications are attempted.

1. Is this likely to be possible for anyone to do as soldering anywhere near chips without specialised equipment and cooling stuff is likely to brick the device?

2. Is there a thread somewhere on the basics of interfacing with the Hermes DLL files that I can read and start doing? When it gets down to decompiling and asm is when I'll get a chance to do something useful.

I have a new Dopod 838Pro with stock ROM as I haven't owned a WM phone before and prefer to know what I'm doing before I start flashing things.

3. As far as development on the GPS goes, what radio ROM are we using to get the current results? Is this stable?

4. Have we definately proved that the GPS startup command is correct and our only issue is the antenna? I don't suppose anyone is willing to start disconnecting antennas in a Trinity to test this theory?

I am new to this but more than willing to spent time in the software aspect of the Hermes if I can find information on debugging, decompiling etc. the DLL's.

5. Can anyone point me in the direction of really useful info on this? I.e. what you found useful the first time you started working with the DLL's etc.

This is a great forum. Keep up the good work guys. I know that it will be possible to get GPS working on these but it's a matter of time and effort. Eventually the threads will thin down to less "when is it going to work?" soon and only the hardcore contributers will be left. I hope to still be here.

Thanks

Maz
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] dutty:
hi

1. hard to tell yet.. but it will definitvly required some good soldering skills.

2. it's 95% the same as with the "big" windows. if you're looking for informations on the RIL. check the wiki.

3. doesn't matter which radio ROM you are using as long as it ends with *.*.11

4. yes, the command is correct. we are def missing the antenna.

5. hard to tell :) there were two different approches, i tried to get everything working with the trinity software and superdave wrote a small proxy-driver. at the moment i've stopped working on the softwareaspect as we now know for sure that we're missing the antenna AND superdaves driver is enough to test the gps functionality in the OS.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
That's awesome. Thanks for the reply.

I might tinker around with the RIL and stuff. Might not help anything but it'll be a good place to start.

IDA Pro looks good but $500 is a bit harsh for a single user/enthusiast licence? Screw that.

I know we're waiting on parts for the antenna. And Olipro has said he has the necessary equipment to solder the thing on so this will be very interesting.

Let me know if theres anything I can do or anything you need?

Maz
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Killbillprime:
IDA Pro

Iammaz

check your messages iv just sent you a PM

all the best dude ;)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
Interesting. Thanks.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
So where are we up to with the WM6 rom and GPS. Does one necessarily preclude the other? I just superCID'd my Hermes, (first time doing anything.. baby steps nothing). And have come across the WM6 rom for the Hermes which i noticed disappeared from the ftp right at the start of all this no-more-roms business.

No matter what I end up doing it's all good fun. haven't pulled apart the hardware yet but its practically brand new. Give it a week or 2 for the coolness to wear off and I'll have it gutted all over the desk in a matter of minutes. If any more hi-res macros are needed, let me know. I have all the proper photography equipment here.

Yay for my flashing cherry being taken and not resulting in a bricked Hermes. Should I stay at WM5 for the purposes of making GPS work or do I start looking at WM6?

Maz

http://maz.net.au
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] dutty:
feel free to flash wm6. it should work independent of the OS
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Killbillprime:
dude im going to be selfish and say go with WM6 ;)

i was reading up on vista and sideshow being supported in WM6 any thoughts?

anyway i cant seem to find wm6 can you upload and pm me the link please?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
http://rapidshare.com/files/18471806/Hermes_WM6_vanilla.rar.html

There is a new sticky in the forums with this link.

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=295444

You might want to check out the results there first. Im going to bed.

Looks like a BETA
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
SuperDave's VMDriver works just fine on WM6. There's no difference in reception however.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Killbillprime:
thanks dude ;)

im going to stop posting here as its going of topic- sorry i know where trying to unclutter this thread apologies all
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] dutty:
wouldnt have thought that its different.. theres no reason
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] SkizZO:
Hey Guys, the problem is 100% the soldering...

I know that it must be accurate... but HOW accurate??

Only who have opened its hermes know that.

Can you post a macro photo with a point of reference.. like a graded line (cm & inch) ?

I haven't a specifies idea of the dimensions of the chip (especially the space between its pins)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jixxie:
I have no good news for you...

Qualcomm RFR6250 has a 48-pin square package of 7.00 x 7.00 mm. It gives 12 pins for 7 mm - so it's less than 0.3 mm space between two pins!

This will be quite challenging operation :p
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
had to say that... heck, there's still posters wondering if GPS works on a hermes... :rolleyes:
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
yep it will indeed... :)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
And it gets worse. Heating the pins is likely to fry the chip. Heating the tracks is likely to transfer enough heat to fry the chip. It's enough to make you go blind trying to see if anything has crossed the pins which, dare I say it, is likely to fry the chip.

I can almost smell the n00bs cooking these already.

Maz

http://maz.net.au/
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] elyjacob:
Silver paint and epoxy to hold the antenna

I'm no expert but can we hold the antenna in place using an epoxy and then use the featured silver conducting paint to connect the antenna to the pin?

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/spec_prep/cond_paints2b.shtml

BTW, Kudos to all in this project who has given me hope...;)

regards,

elyjacob

(virgin dopod 838 pro)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] SkizZO:
wow interessant thing!!!

otherwise i haven't a so smaller "solder gun" (i hope NEED also something of snodable to make it VERY STABLE & PRECISE).

I have to find someone in my city who make the work... :(
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] futureshock:
is there a antenna available???

i have solder many small things.... and also memory chips to my xbox motherboard....

looks like here:

http://www.xbox-linux.org/w/images/8/8b/Chip-finished.jpg

they guys on the picture uses a very brutal soldering method ;) ....

the just puts so lot soldering on the chip that every pin must have to be solderd....

http://www.xbox-linux.org/w/images/1/16/Chip-drowned-in-solder.jpg

and thenremove the remaining solder....

but its no problem to do it correctly... just presolder the bin (low temperature, just so smelt the solder and then but the antenna there.. fit it with tape and give a short engage and it should be fine...

...

on other thing about the silver stick...

you also can fix the antenne directly to the pin (eg. epoxy, or cyancralat glue) and make a line with a normal pencil.... the pencilmine also conduct .... (uses in pc processor to overclock them.)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] elyjacob:
VERY BRUTAL!!!...hehehe don't have the balls to try that with my precious.

elyjacob

(virgin 838p)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] renegade1:
me too, after reading several pages on this thread i was lost. i know i'm not that smart with the hardwares and softwares, but i was trying to understand every bit but along the way it's been more confusing. luckily most person and members here in these thread can follow and can relate to every bit of details. but what about those unfortunates like me who has the lack of understanding with this matter. i know reading is a powerful tool but reading from page 1 to the last page makes me feel a bum. :( oc'z i can't follow all the procedures, everything. i am lost. please enlighten me and everyone of us who are left in the dark. :)

is it too much to ask for a separate thread with the procedure on how tomake the GPS work on my very lonely Tmobile Vario II. or is it possible to add the procedure on hermes wiki?

cheers and more power to XDA-DEV and to all the members. they try to shut us but we have the VICTOR. :)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Once we finish up the hardware development part of this project, we'll post a full and complete howto. jpogge has already pointed out that conductive epoxy may be the way to go for the average user. However it's hard to obtain in small quantities & very expensive.

As far as soldering to SMT connectors go, the chip can handle the heat. You need a very small wattage pencil that's preferably temp controlled. Remember: SMT devices are soldered to the mainboard using wave soldering equipment. :)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Olipro:
also, a very steady hand... and plenty of solder braid ;)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] futureshock:
where did we get the antenna??? or has anyone the antenna yet??
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
The bigger the glob, the better the job :D
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] renegade1:
cheers, glad to hear that. looking forward it, i hope i am not going to brick my vario.(fingers crossed) :D
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] renegade1:
sorry, double post.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Des:
Ask for something like "window heater repair kit" in auto spares: small quantity of rather inexpensive conductive epoxy.

Also more user friendly ag-based pens for flex pcb repairs priced less then 10$ could be found in electronics diy shop.

ps: I'm not a radio engineer but from practice I can tell that though trivial piece of wire of [approximately] proper length is perceptible dBs worse than well designed antenna it is much more dBs better than no antenna at all.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jmdrizen:
GPS or no GPS?

Hi All,

I'm really sorry, but I've just about to invest in either a T-Mobile MDA Compact III with GPS built in, or the Vario II (Hermes)... I'm swaying to the latter, but it's the GPS that is holding me back.

I started to read this thread from the start but after nightmare day at work I'm not taking it all in.

Am I right in thinking that GPS is not possible in the Hermes, unless you play Russian Roulette with a soldering iron? Or can I activate it to use Co-Pilot/TomTom without problem?

Apologies for post jumping,

All the best!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Des:
If everything needed is a single pin for antenna in (i.e. no external filters connected to other pins) then it could be found via simple (but somewhat risky) experiment:

disassemble your hermes, connect battery and fix it with tape, turn it on, get in bootloader, rtask b, at@startgps. Probe 6250's pins with needle or something similiar (be extremly careful not to short-circut pins or you could burn the chip) and look for any signal improvement in nmea output during minute or two.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
The short story is. It doesn't appear possible without hardware mods at this stage. But we haven't completed the trial run to find out if this is going to improve the signal enough.

IN SUMMARY FOR EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO READ THE THREAD:

1. The gps chis is there. It appears to function.

2. We can get NMEA instructions from the GPS to applications.

3. Without an antenna, we are getting 4 - 7 satellites but no lock and weak SNR.

4. Jpogge is working on a trial antenna at the moment but this hasn't been added yet, and thus, we don't have results from this test yet.

FROM HERE (STILL TO DO):

5. See if antenna fixes lock issues.

6. If it does, work out the easiest way to effectively add these to a Hermes.

7. SAT NAV!! etc.

Maz

http://maz.net.au/

I type this sig every time.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jmdrizen:
Cheers Maz & Thanks to all working on the project!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] SkizZO:
I've think a solution... however i will make some tests on chips that i have from unused /old hardware. (for myself & others if interested... i see the problem from a nearly noob's prospective :) )

If ve found a material to isolate the area around the chip,like an adhesive tape, with a lead drop we can do CENTER!

So the solder isn't at hi-Temp & it's isolated from other pins.

Maybe before the lead drop we can arrange the coax cable on the pin :D

Just experiment into this week-end
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] arghness:
The Hermes doesn't officially support GPS internally, so I wouldn't buy the device for GPS. It will definitely need a ROM update, 99.9% need a hardware mod, and even then may not work (nobody is yet in a position to test it).

However, it will happily work with an external bluetooth GPS module, which may still be practical for you.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] raboliot:
RIP Hermes GPS

Requiem In Pace ...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
The type of soldering iron matters, it must be grounded, non grounded soldring irons have ac voltages present on the tip and these will destroy the part. I do my soldering of this type with a $4000 temperature control air soldering iron, non contact..

The type of epoxy does matter, as some of the filler material tends to be capacitive, at 1574 MHz this can be as small as .01 - 1pF and you've achieved nothing. The correct ratio has higher silver content and that makes them expensive. Radio Shack and other simular out fits dont carry these as they are less likely to sell than the cheaper brands. Most inexpensive repair pens dont have the right ratio of silver to paint and thus will be virtually useless. I say virtually because some one may be sucessful using crap materials. Put this down to good old fashioned dumb luck, I am chosing materials that should make probability of success very high. High conductivity epoxy sells for about $16 dollars US / 2grams and I have tested 4 types so far 2 dont work above 800 MHz, this proves this testing is necessary...

There is a reason RF engineers make 2-3 times more than most engineers, they understand what we used to call FM (F#ck&ing Magic) They dont survive in this industry if they suggest a coat hanger will solve your reception problems. If it works once there is no guarantee it will be successful on 100,000 produced.. I have tremendous respect for the engineers at HTC that juggled all of these signals in such a small package and still have most people satified with the function of so many diverging RF technologies.

The antenna placement is important not so much for the view to the satelites but rather the interference it may cause to the other RF systems in the phone. This is why we are testing and calculating and being careful with our progress. That is the formula for success, if some are impatient and think they can do better by all means pop the back and solder away, its your phone, I believe in individual freedom, if you happen to know the actual GPS LNA input pin please share either by posting or PM.

I have completed 2 antenna designs and will send them to a senior member designated by the moderator for testing. We are going to do this right..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
Also I might add,in order to sell the Hermes in Europe it must have passed ROHS lead free testing, if you dont use the correct solder these newer lead free antimony based solders that meet this standard tend to crystalize and fall apart. It spreads like a disease, I have seen PCB's with a white, Blue dust where the solder should have been so be careful, in this case the materials matter very much as well. It might look good but after several weeks will stop working and you will find many solder joints effected.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] walshieau:
i agree with doing it right... as these are expensive pieces of hardware and as you stated the amount of RF signals already included in the small unit... keep up the great work...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
A $4,000 soldering station is a bit of an overkill :eek:.... I'd expect no less from a good engineer though. :)

My 18watt Antex is grounded, temp controlled, costs about $30 and works fine for SMT work. You can buy your own here
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
I wasnt trying to put anybody off, the antex will do a nice job, I was just pointing out that this is not a trivial matter, I am a professional and as such I am spoiled by good tools,for me the soldering is trivial, and I wanted to show that there is a reason I talk so casually about attaching the antenna, I am concerned that some may think this is easier than I have led people to believe by some of the posts I have seen since. The enthusiasim is awsome by the way... If you have a respect for the skill involved in doing this you will be way ahead of the curve when the job needs to get done. if you however dont respect the skills necessary then I fear the possibility of damage will be higher.

My main concern is that we

1) find a solution

2) it is a solution that is feasible for anyone,

I was trying to point out that the nature of the problem and our approach was to do the heavy lifting and then clear the way for the community. We want to make this as easy as possible, however, like I said it is not trivial, I am in awe of some of the technology I have witnessed crammed into this phone.. If we can crack the problem, I feel condfident that the right people are doing the right things, it looks like HTC has chosen not to fuilly incorporate GPS in the Hermes and this unfortunately means it is a challenge rather than a puzzle...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
I'm just shocked and amazed that we have a real bona-fide RF engineer working on this ;) Talk about good fortune!
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] mtimmy:
NO kidding, I have been using those temp. control resoldering hot air station for 10 years.! and they cost less than 200 dollars on EBAY.

NOT $4000
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] sweetdevil:
-= | =-

i think at this time it's not possible to talk about 4000 $ temp. control resoldering hot air station until we don't know if the modification works or not ... ;)
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] iammaz:
I wasn't putting people off by explaining what I thought would be a challenge for the lesser of us, (I am mearly a software developer who has had a mobile device for all of 2 weeks). As you say, it is a challenge.

I am here trying to do anything I can because I enjoy the challenge, not because I want GPS. (That is mearly a bonus.)

So I especially want to thank jpogge for all his hard work as I know I could not have done the design for an antenna myself. As well as thanking everyone who has in some way participated in this challenge!

Cheers!

Maz

http://maz.net.au/
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] stinger32:
Have any1 tested anything yet?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
We're still trying to find our elusive LNA GPS pin number....

edit: This thread has been unstuck. You can access it by opening the sticky "Resources" thread and looking under GPS..
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Here's something for discussion:

Do a search on eBay for "GPS Phone". There are zillions of devices costing next to nothing listed.

Maybe a cheap source for qty 1 GPS chip antennas/matching components.... Even the A-GPS devices receive signals & transmit to the network.

I am beginning to research FCC info on the less expensive models to see if any might have a 1.57GHz chip antenna on board... anybody else want to jump in here?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] jpogge:
4K is a bit much, but it is robotic and can remove and retouch a 562 pin micro BGA package without blowing the warranty or the chip. Temp controlled and a deionizer is a must on LNA, so $200 on ebay isa great price,

I could use one at home, my point was that in the enthusiasm the suggestions were possibly leading people to think this would be a cake walk, With the resources at my disposal , if it bugs me, you should be more than slighly nervous.

The chip antenna's were developed for both the cell phone industry to meet the GPS E911 requirement, this antenna I have chosen rejects the GSM band all by itself without a filter. ALso a customer (unamed) uses it in their GPS sports watches.... As such they are becoming more popular but will probablly be found in newer devices.

Sleuth is right, we still need to know where to connect., Randomly trying pins can Brick pretty quickly, it is a 50 Ohm load. A source of 3.3 volts can pull 66mA through this pretty easily. Most CMOS will be fine, but some cant handle more than 10 -20mA, The antenna may be trashed if connected directly to a power source. That is why I needed to use a DC blocking capacitor in the LC matching circuit.

Either way when we have a good idea of where to connect the antenna is ready. Atleast two differing designs, have been tested, they are very nearly 50 Ohms at 1575 MHz and the senitivity and efficientcy are higher than normal. So we have a chance...
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Sleuth255:
Testing for the pin while powered up is also out of the question from a purely mechanical perspective. The RFR 6250 is on the front side of the mainboard which can only be accessed when a connector is disengaged, allowing the board itself to pivot up on the kbd connector edge to reveal the front side.
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] GliTCH82:
Sleuth that is a hardcore soldering job. Even if you are successful how likely is it for the rest of us to implement this mod?
[8525, TyTN, MDA Vario II, JasJam Software Upgradin] Des:
I agree that it was not a good idea. Not because of difficulty of access but [unused] input pin is surely pulled to gnd so such test is almost useless.

I'm not sure about hermes but wizard operates perfectly with keyboard and screen disconnected.