yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said anything about xda and normal in the same sentence. Normal users are people who use Windows and think root is only for trees. I was refuting Iruwen's statement that he is a normal user.

My entire argument has been not to make assumptions about what unlocking will do and that Sony will do (and has the right to) whatever they please.

Do I like the situation? No, but I understand it. They are slow to change and non communicative. They also guard what they make jealously.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you don't like it get an organized response going. Having a few people complain in this forum about this phone will do nothing. Get people from the other Sony phone threads together and voice your opinions en masse.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] SenK9:
I'm new to Xperias and TA partition in general, so bear with me. If root could be achieved without unlocking bootloader, and TA partition backed up, that still means that the camera quality will reduce because it detects the lack of DRM keys?

For example, in the Z1 forum, they have workarounds for root, and even AOSP/CM ROMS, but the camera is sub par compared to stock, is this correct?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] LastQuark:
No, you said you are a system administrator and rooting is not normal. Why do you even bring up root on people who don’t know what root is?

We already knew that. Sony has the right to remove the unlock website if they want to. The point is some purchasing decisions have been made based on the fact that the phone is unlockable just like their previous phones with the same amount of risks - but not the risk of losing picture quality on the shots we own.

Tell that to Magnus who had the value of his phone diminished.

Are you encouraging us now to go against Sony? It’s just a phone. We can replace it with another brand easy. However, we're hoping Sony to make it right. They are all over the news now. Their fate will be decided by the actions they take today.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] dew.man:
Looks like the ftf contains a ta partition. Wouldn't this restore drm?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] lysp:
It'd be for legal/licencing reasons. Sure people can steal it, but they cant leave it open for anyone to copy.

Just like music, there are apps to remove DRM from them, but their licensing agreement prevents companies sending out DRM free music.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
What?

Your two statements contradict each other.

The camera in the z1 - z3 is basically the same, the software is where they made improvements. The hardware still works just fine, they just removed access to their software. Before you unlock the bl you have to assume you will loose ALL of Sony's proprietary software. Then you weigh that loss against the gains and make your decision.

Ok.... Magnus I don't agree with Sony. Do you feel better now LastQuark?

They won't make it right unless you complain to them. And they are more likely to listen if they receive something organized and rational. Bitter comments on forums won't do anything. Engage them in a conversation like adults and you might be pleasantly surprised at what they do.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] charliebigpot:
I don't get it, why do people:

1. complain about DRM key loss and Sony not making it easier --> if you buy a BMW and change the engine, you wouldn't go to BMW and complain about eventual issues.

2. complain about people not warning/giving wrong information --> this is a forum, for developers and people who like to experiment, you should take everything pinch of salt + don't only read the front posts, read it all and look for similar posts to get more povs.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] cyphomatic:
Indeed. Also, the devices are also just out. Consider root and tweaks to be in alpha-beta state and absolutly not free of potential sideaffects. If you try rooting and tweaking from day one: consider yourself either to be a developer, beta-tester or an idiot complaining about bad services.

This root it's only purpose is the make further development for custom Roms possible while waiting for a more decent option. When a rooting method without loosing DRM keys is possible, you will be able to pick the fruits developers have been able to produce since this day.

Rooting a brand new device from day one as a normal user is also not smart. If there would pop up production-errors with this device the coming months, you will be left without any warranty.

Just sit back and stay tuned for more progress and testing to be done.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] marumari:
I unlocked my bootloader and my wifi and cellular service (licensed from Broadcom) kept working. So did my video drivers (Qualcomm). As did my Google Play Services (Google). Pretty much every part of a modern smartphone is licensed to the hilt and filled with proprietary software, but only Sony's own software -- which they can do anything they want with -- seems to be affected by this.

This isn't anything like buying a BMW and changing the engine. It's still running the same hardware *and* same software after unlocking the bootloader. The only difference is the removal of a couple certificates and a bit flipping to indicate the bootloader's status. It's more like signing a sheet of paper at the BMW dealership where you say that you might swap out pieces of the car in the future. They say sure, no problem, and disable going in reverse, the left windshield wiper, and 5th gear.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] charliebigpot:
... you can use any comparison you want, the point I was trying to make is that you are changing a finished product in a way the manufacturer doesn't want you to - and that's why people should not complain if something goes wrong.

For the record, on my previous devices I've been a flashoholic, so I'm just waiting for a safe way to root myself ;)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] marumari:
That's fair. I just want to make sure that people don't give Sony a free pass on this one. It was Sony's choice to disable this software: it would have been less work for them to simply leave it alone. Sony is the only major smartphone manufacturer that engages in this particular behavior.

Generally, It's behavior that should be discouraged, as I feel that it right for people to have control over their own devices. :)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
So the chore now is to get Sony to broaden their definition of "open". Are you willing get together with other devs and users from XDA's Sony group to create a well thought out argument as to why they should change?

Any yes I know some of you are pissed at me for playing devil's advocate. Someone had to so get over it.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] LastQuark:
Because your argument do not have grounds. Why globalize the risk that is in the disclaimer? All you have to do is read the disclaimer again from Sony. Let me write it down here for your convenience:

http://developer.sonymobile.com/unlockbootloader/unlock-yourboot-loader/

Title : Unlock Your boot loader (in big characters by Sony - Yohoo!)

Risks:

....Also, a custom ROM might not work properly on your device, and certain functions and offerings may cease to work. The performance of the device might also be affected, and you may damage your device permanently. In worst case, unlocking the boot loader will cause physical injuries or material damage, for example, due to the device overheating.

Note: They are talking about custom ROM here and not unlocking the bootloader

What Sony added after the issue was brought up by Magnus:

Certain pre-loaded content on your device may also be inaccessible due to the removal of DRM security keys. For high-end devices running recent software versions, for instance Xperia Z3, the removal of DRM security keys may affect advanced camera functionality...

Note: "may also" - They didn't say "to clarify". This is the new statement that was not disclosed after unlocking the bootloader which they allow.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Tennic:
In case of partition elimination TA (DRM), the pictures get worse even using third-party app? :confused:
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] vidge1111:
Using any 3rd party app may slightly increase quality but not like with the drm intact.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
I actually have no idea what you're trying to say with that statement.

Regardless, you're angry at Sony, but seem unwilling to do anything more than rant about it here. What is your goal then?

My goal is to get the XDA Sony devs and users to send a UNIFIED statement expressing our opinions to Sony. As I am new to the Sony boards I don't know many of the people on them, so I'm kind of hoping those of you that are long time users will talk to others and maybe choose a person to act as a liason. I will happily contribute to this.

So are you going to stand up and say something to them or sit and grumble?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] rob rich:
Yes, and its not just the z3, its the same on my z1c
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Tennic:
So we just have to wait until way is found to make the root without unlocking the bootloader, so you will not lose the partition TA.

When the root is done, you can make a backup of the partition TA :)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] LastQuark:
It means that those who unlocked their bootloaders were not aware of the risk contrary to what you infered in several your posts.

Nah, not angry. I'm responding to you for defending Sony too much at the expense of those who already unlocked their bootloaders. I am just trying to make a point that those who unlocked their bootloaders never knew about the new risks beforehand and that Sony clearly did not disclose it in their disclaimer.

Thank you for standing up. Now we're aligned. Those who unlocked their bootloaders unknowingly reducing its functionality need a replacement phone. I am not one of them but almost became one.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
Like I said, they put a lot of software behind their camera. Assume loss of all their software when unlocking, that way you're not surprised when it happens.

Didn't say you were angry at me, I said you were angry at Sony. So now it's fairly obvious the support they have given so far is more of a "here you go now keep quiet" thing. Like I said they care a lot about their software and they will maintain that policy for the sake of their bottom line. The object now is to show them it's doing the opposite.

Ah good, you are up for this. If you would, please talk to any other people you think would be willing and maybe we can get XDA to write an article outlining our points as a start.

As this thread is about the DRM keys it's as good a place as any for people to share their reasons why they disagree with Sony's policy. For anyone choosing to do this, please put down something more intellectual than "because it sucks!!" I'll post mine after I've had some sleep and some time to think.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Bäcker:
When they unlocked their phone they clearly accepted that warranty may be voided AND only they accept any risks for unlocking. Yes, they did not know that this would directly degrade features, this is correct. But nobody forced them to do anything. Sure, they might not have unlocked knowing the effects, still this does not entitle them to a replacement phone, thats hilarious.

Nevertheless I can understand why they would be pissed. But all of this is not new and it's especially not just a problem of the Z3. This has happend on the other Zs as well, but either nobody realized it or people just accepted the fact.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] bilboa1:
"warranty may be voided"

". Sure, they might not have unlocked knowing the effects"

apple fan syndrome!
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] theloniousm:
Sorry but I have to ask this:

Ideally for me, the development efforts here will result in a rooted Z3c with all its Sony features working, and with Google launcher and android L apps and keyboard. One can dream, right?

But I know not to underestimate the talents around here.

Whether that's by reverse engineering (or cracking) Sony's camera algorithms, mirrorlink, x-reality engine etc... and implementing those into a vanilla Android based ROM, or whether it's by starting from Sony's ROM (ideally the Android L based one coming to Z3c around February 2015) and modifying icons and launchers to make it look more 'stock' while keeping Sony's apps and functionalities, I have no idea. But I'm curious to hear what you think seems more feasible as of now.

My question is essentially: If we're able to back-up the TA partition (DRM keys and all) after a root exploit is found, then is this TA backup going to (a.) be useful only when we have sony's firmware with locked BL (possibly after re-locking it), or will it become (b.) also useful when running a custom ROM?

For example: If I have AOSP installed, will restoring the TA magically enable x-reality, camera noise reduction and whatnot, automatically? ..Or will someone need to port things such as Sony's camera app, or Sony display server tweaks that aren't part of AOSP, in order to make use of what's protected inside the TA partition? It seems like the camera features, or possible the IR blaster function would be easier to recover from backed up DRM keys than, say, the display enhancement, which would probably be more deeply integrated into sony's firmware and hard to isolate from the rest.

I think I'm waiting until Sony updates to Android L anyway, as I have a feeling they might just revamp their UI to a flatter design like I'm hoping.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] rob rich:
Restoring the TA partition will relock your bootloader, so no custom roms ;)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] theloniousm:
[QUOTEch;55837287]Restoring the TA partition will relock your bootloader, so no custom roms ;)[/QUOTE]

Oh really? Thanks for clarifying.

:crying:

I guess need root more than I need a custom ROM anyway. Not sure how I could live with ads and no SD app data again. :eek:
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] sublimnl:
Is this accurate? If that's truly the case then this phone is going back. : (
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Zanr Zij:
Of course it's true!
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] dillalade:
Yeap.

I just wished the noobs on this forum listened to my skeptisism regarding the DRM & camera malarkey when I was consistently expressing this experience we'd encountered from the z1c.

Anyway we need to encourage the devs remaining to mine for that exploit.

We can all but hope
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] rob rich:
Right.

I still have a little hope that things will improve with Android L and/or the release of Sony AOSP Roms for some devices
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Tennic:
Even for me :)

I do not need a rom mod, the stock I like, but I would like the root to use certain application, Adaway first :)

So I would like the root with the stock rom, and without losing drm (for better pictures etc) :(
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Pyres:
You don't need root to use adblocking software, you just have to set it manually.

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2726443

this applies to both wifi and mobile data settings (I'm currently using it, so I can confirm 100% working... and I've kept my bootloader locked, retaining all the functionalities of the phone)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Tennic:
I use it already :)

It works pretty well, however in certain app advertising appears, however, while this did not happen with Adaway :(

I will settle for adblock, until we find a way to get root without unlocking bootloader and then keeping drm :)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] clouds5:
It's a shame that unlocking the bootloader brings negative side effects with it. But I have to say this device is very usable without root. Apart from the ads. I'll be patient I guess. Sooner or later root will come.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] boojay:
Agreed, I'm actually very impressed with stock Sony, particularly low light camera performance and power management.

I've been using ABP as an alternative too until an exploit is found, but it only works sometimes. I'm still getting a lot of YouTube ads.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] USanderw:
Perhaps a dumb question but...

There's no possibility of losing some of these features once a root method is found, is there?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] lysp:
Just because it's licensed doesn't mean it wont work due to rooting/unlocking. Each company will have their own licensing terms with their own individual licensing agreement of which things they are and are not allowed to do under that license.

Sony's agreement is that if the bootlocker gets unlocked, then the DRM keys + TA partition is wiped.

You can't compare different licensing components as they are not all like for like.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Scottland:
Same here, ABP seems to stop Gmail from working for me though.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] difto:
I would say that Sony should simply stop offering to unlock the BL as apparently most of people here, who will mainly do it to remove ads (thus stealing other developers revenues) cannot understand that a company which invests millions in R&D don't want its software algorithms running in custom roms on Samsung, LG, Motorola devices and so on.

And even though everything was not documented, it was known that on the Z1 it broke the camera. I don't see the point of complaining.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Iruwen:
Funny, because Sony saw it and changed the text accordingly within one day.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
Well that's step one. Now to convince them to open up a bit more.

---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

I agree with the ad blocking. There are more ethical ways to deal with them.

As for Sony re-locking the bl, that would turn off every single dev remaining.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Polso:
Hi, i am thinking about buying the Z3C, but i would have a phone that can be rooted and where i can install custom rom...

Do you guys think in future there will be a fix for this Root Problem?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] dl12345:
I'm going to cancel my order for a Z3 because of this. I run mostly stock ROMS but absolutely require root access and a custom recovery (for many reasons, but being able to run XPrivacy is one of the key reasons, as is ad-blocking, Titanium backup and the ability to make nandroid backups).

That's really disappointing as I wanted this phone, but breaking a phone so badly because of an unlocked bootloader is a non-starter.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Polso:
Exactly so do you think there will be a fix for this in future ?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] tribemac:
I'll thinks there will be but no one can't promise you anything. For me I'm happy with stock unrooted for now. Always rooted and used costum rom's before but with this phone I can live without.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] boojay:
Even without root, this phone is amazeballs! I have no regrets, still the best phone on the market. That said, I REALLY hope an exploit is found soon, but it's not going to keep me from enjoying this phone as it currently is.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Iruwen:
I also won't get one until the root issue is fixed. Actually I don't need MirrorLink or Miracast, but the camera issue bugs me and there's no way I can work without root.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] amnher:
Kinda new what is ABP?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] kaiowas82:
adblock plus i think :)
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] tocirah1:
So does anyone have two Z3 Compacts they can compare? And can someone please verify other camera modes? Specifically things like High-ISO mode, Night Mode etc.

Thanks.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Iruwen:
Sony already confirmed that image quality decreases, so somebody would have to do a full scale review under controlled conditions so that the images are really comparable.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] vidge1111:
post about picture quality pre and post BL unlock

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=55890527
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] 2mal16:
Write Sony!

I suggest we all write Sony that if they want to produce a perfect phone they should stop restricting their users.

At last this is android , it lives (at least for me) of the huge amount of customization one can do. I already wrote my complaint to a customer service , lets see what they reply. Sony did a lot right with this phone, why not continue in an even better direction?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] XQC:
It has already been said, that Sony wants to protect its own software and doesn't want the camera ported to other devices of LG, Samsung, etc. - which I can understand in this case.

But having said that, it would ne nice to obtain root with a locked bootloader. Otherwise I don't feel the need to install a custom ROM, Sony did a good job with their stock ROM.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] 2mal16:
True, I also completely understand that but I am assuming there is another way to protect proprietary software than coupling it to a for me restrictional use of their own stock rom. I could be wrong about this though(feel free to clarify me , im interested).

That said, i will also run stock rom until it is safe to backup the partition (and possibly restore them on custom roms/ when going back to stock rom) or like you said when you can unlock the phone without touching the bootloader.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] cyphomatic:
Can anyone confirm the DRM-keys are affecting the hardware process and not just the stock camera application? Is the use of a third party app a simple solution?
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] DroidZombie:
Samsung apps work with touch wiz and not custom ROMs. Why would you expect Sony's to work with custom ROMs?

Most people just want them to work with Sony's skin on an unlocked bootloader. There are lots of useful apps that need root (Xposed framework being the biggest).

The upside for Sony to let us keep full functionality on unlock is that you wouldn't have as many people actively trying to hack their software. Right now they've basically dared people to. Hey maybe they want that as they'd prefer more ethical, benign hacking to expose flaws for patching.
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Tennic:
In my opinion, the majority of users are not annoyed by the policy of Sony because of the proprietary software. Obviously, if I decide to use a rom mod, it is obvious that the Sony app no longer work ;)

However I do not understand how a device like the camera should work with poor quality as a result of the unlocked bootloader : Confuso:

Unless (I have not the means to verify), this degradation occurs only photos with the Sony app and just use any other good camera app to get good results.

The camera has a sensor that captures raw data, which then must be processed by an app.

So, do not think it is right that as a result of the unlocked bootloader, is precluded optimal use of the hardware camera even by third-party app (if it so happens, now do not know) :(
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] 2mal16:
Absolutely, in a market this competitive there is no room for giving around presents in form of picture processing software for free!

They stated that the algorythm for picture processing is the one missing on custom roms producing the inferior picture quality.Arguing like this it seems more like the raw quality of the camera isnt affected, just the way it processes pictures and of course the final output.Consequently i honestly doubt that any custom rom will bring the same low light capability stock has without taking over sonys software.

The way I understand it though is that the unlock causes an irreversible loss of the cameras capability to use this processing option.

I would not have a problem with that if they would at least offer a way to restore the phone to complete stock with intact drm keys, so there would be room for people to try out custom roms and decide whether they can live without that feature or not.

Its this restriction that annoys me a bit, but not enough to not buy the phone ;).
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Kerlanen:
Check if it is unlocked

I want to buy a "used" Z3 Compact, but want to be sure, that it is not unlocked. Is there a way to find out if the bootloader is unlocked?

Cheers

Kerlanen
[Xperia Z3 Compact General] Anonymuszymus:
Go to Phone-Dial: *#*#7378423#*#* -Service info-Configuration -check the bootloader status