yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
What? You obviously don't understand software. The benchmarks are running through the OS...you can't just ignore it...

If we had both chips running an identical OS with identical instructions, then we could compare power. You can't run a benchmark in one OS and compare it to a benchmark in another OS to compare pure speed because the benchmark is subject to the OS. Common knowledge is that Android isn't the most efficient OS compared to Apple's, therefore Apple doesn't need as much power to perform the same operations. Either that common thought is wrong, or you are in this case. If the Apple A8 was just as powerful as the Snapdragon 805, then on an Apple OS we would be seeing great differences in benchmark scores, YET the differences in benchmark scores are relatively small.

This means that either the Apple A8 isn't as fast as people are hyping it to be, or Apple's software is a lot slower than people make it out to be - either way, people are trying to hype something being better than it really is...

You can't really have it both ways :\
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
This is utter nonsense. Benchmarks are native apps on either platform and whatever "OS overhead" there is is absolutely negligible.

The A8 smokes Krait or even A57 for that matter. There's no denying that.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
OS overhead? You are aware that there's more to how a CPU and OS interact than overhead, right? Let me break this down for you - this is how a benchmark works.

Benchmark ---> Instructions to OS ---> Calculations ----> Result

So, are you saying the Apple OS is as slow as the Android OS? Why are you dodging this aspect of the question?
[Galaxy Note 4 General] tmac31:
tegra k1 with downclocked to 1.5 ghz(dual core) probably can get that cpu benchmark scores of a8 too . so why cant a8 could be that good? do you have anything to support this idea?
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
From the geekbench website: "Geekbench 3 features new tests designed to simulate real-world scenarios. ". How is a 'real world scenario' on android a native scenario ?
[Galaxy Note 4 General] Lodix:
Do you know how they compare in power consumption ??
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying the A8 is slow as ****.

Basically, what I'm saying - I'll break it down into an equation.

Snapdragon 805 + Android OS = ~4700 Antutu Score

Apple A8 + Apple iOS = ~5100 Antutu score

Therefore the iPhone 6+ is a little bit faster.

This leaves 3 possibilities...

A) The A8 is marginally faster than the Snapdragon 805, but Apple iOS is optimized the same as the Android OS.

B) The Snapdragon 805 is marginally faster than the A8, but the Apple iOS is more efficiently optimized compared to the Android OS, giving the iPhone 6+ a lead in benches

C) The Apple A8 is very slightly faster than the Snapdragon 805, and so is the Apple iOS. Basically the iOS is optimized only a hair more than the Android OS.

It would be one thing if benchmarks were capable of communicating with the hardware directly, but that's not how it works. Antutu perform tests within the OS and the scores given are how those tests add up. Given my understanding of Apple OS and their place in the tech industry versus Microsoft and Google, they've been known to excel in OS-side optimization.

But here, you are all ignoring the operating system and focusing only on the processor - which is contrary to the endless "Apple iOS is faster" mantra that I've been hearing for the last years. So, either all of a sudden the Apple iOS isn't significantly more optimized than the Android OS and Apple is now trying to win their fights with pure processing power (which I doubt), or the Apple A8 is slower than the Snapdragon and Apple is still exerting their own brand of superiority through OS optimization. Despite what people are saying in this thread, I'm still leaning towards the latter.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
No that's not how computers work. There is no "instruction to OS", that's absolute nonsense. A native application has directly CPU executable code (i.e. instructions), no matter the OS. If an application makes no calls to OS APIs then there is zero overhead.

I suggest to read an introductory course on how computers work or something on that level.

How is it not? All the functions emulated by GeekBench are some sort of native library computation. Nobody is doing hard math or algorithms in Java/VM.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] Lodix:
Don't use Antutu to measure the CPU performance of a SOC.

Geekbench: A8 @1'4GHz ~ 1400 in single core.

Krait 450 @ 2'7GHz ~ 1050 in single core.

So it is a 33% better score with half the frequency.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
Pretty much all apps are JAVA, maybe some games are not. Realworld to me would then be JAVA on android. Unfortunately Geekbench states nothing other than that it's 'real world' simulation. To me that sounds as JAVA. Oh and then we're not even talking about things as browser benchmark, which access the JAVA framework by default.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
Benchmarks make calls to the OS API's - they're done by running tests within the OS. They aren't directly measuring the power of the CPU....
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
All apps are shells written in Java, if there's anything computationally heavy there are calls to native libraries over JNI. These benchmarks are there to test the hardware, not the crappy layers of APIs on top of various frameworks.

That's your opinion. Reality is sadly different.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] tmac31:
"Most benchmark apps are designed to test the hardware of a device, so they are written in native code and will mostly be unaffected by ART's performance boost. The same goes for 3D games and the rendering code of a browser. "

something from ars technica lollipop review.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
That's just false. Most benchmark nowadays measure the performance from a user perspective. That's why there is something like a 'browser benchmark'. These are JAVA written and JNI interfaced. That's not hardware you're measuring at all.

Geekbench doesn't reveal how it measures, other than that it states it tries to simulate real world application, hence JAVA in my opinion.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
How is it that you've spent so much time on these forums and acquired such an ego, yet know so little?

How Antutu works

Back to school for you?
[Galaxy Note 4 General] cmd512:
Let me explain their irrationality:

1) They realize the Exynos has the better audio chip.

2) Unlike Perseus, they realize they have weak custom kernels only with a half functional, vanilla ROM like cyanogenmod as the only thing they can lay claim to. (Everyone already knows Xposed negated the need for any custom Samsung ROMs.)

3) And now, you're telling them their higher CPU frequencies amount to nothing?? Seriously, you're going to cause a massive meltdown in here, haha. [emoji1]
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
33% better score with 1 core. Krait has 2 more cores than the A8 does....so what exactly are relevant about the single core results? If anything, this information is supporting my side of the argument :p

Add up the 2 cores of the A8 and you get 2800, add up the Snapdragon cores and you get 4200...seems pretty self explanatory which processor has more peak performance capability based on that info you've given.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] tmac31:
a8 multicore score is 3k so as s805
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
You are aware that all browsers are NDK compiled applications without any bit of Java, right?

Yes that's how the fricking Antutu UX Runtime test works. Because that's what it's designed to test. The rest of the tests and benchmarks we've been discussing are all native tests.

Go away you troll.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
I specifically was referencing Antutu from the start (and so were all we), it's obviously your own fault you get lost in your own tangents...

You're also the one expressing inflammatory behavior. We're just talking about phone processors, no need to get your knickers in a bunch :p
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
And all my posts about the matter were directed and quoted gekkehenkie11 who was talking about GeekBench the whole time.

Get some reading comprehension.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
LOL, so you're actually saying it's better to have a custom *KERNEL* than a custom *ROM* ??? hahahaha, enjoy your custom Exynos kernel man, while we are enjoying vanilla android ROM's on snapdragon :)

---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------

You're the troll man. You're making up all kinds of statements out of thin air, totally ignoring what the creators publish themselves regarding their benchmark. Again, how does a browser benchmark measure hardware when it's JAVA code ? You're really full of it ...
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
I love it when someone calls someone else a troll, yet is the only one making inflammatory remarks that could potentially lead to pointless argument. You're the one who began quoting and responding to me, I'm not talking about gekkehenkie11 or GeekBench.

All I'm trying to figure out how a distinctly faster processor and supposedly faster OS barely scores higher than a much slower processor and OS in real-world performance benchmarks.

Yet here AndreiLux is, trying to pick fights on the internet. Maybe you should take a day off?
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
This. Going in very aggressive with tons of insults, and then calling other trolls. You gotta love the internet eh
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
Very friendly place.

In the meantime, I found an article that plainly demonstrates that the Apple A8 is behind even the Note 3 in terms of CPU power.

So much for the Apple A8 being faster than the Snapdragon 805? This is so confusing. Seems like all the answers I find elsewhere on the internet are contrary to what people seem to think here.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
Yes the Note 3 even performs better than the A8 in geekbench multicore.

Look, all optimizations aside:

* The A8 processes 2x more instructions per cycle

* The 805 has 2x higher clock speed

* The 805 has 2x more cores.

This means 2x more instructions per amount of time on the Snapdragon. Of course this is a huge oversimplification, the A8 has higher cache size for example which will benefit speed and there are more optimizations that come into play. However, just stress testing the CPU with pure machine code should easily be won by the 805.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] cmd512:
How cute, yes that's what I'm saying. That's what everyone who donated to get Perseus is saying. The only people who think custom ROMs are still worth a damn are those who have never used a full featured kernel before.

Keep enjoying your half featured experimental ROM while we're natively controlling our CPUs, GPUs, screens, memory buses, LED, and much more. [emoji1]
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
Haha, it's cute when you know you will never have a custom rom on your Exynos and then pretend to be happy you can somewhat tweak the kernel :) Haha. Enjoy your laggy Touchwiz on your tweaked kernel man, while we will enjoy tweaked kernels + vanilla Android.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
Yea, that makes much more sense. I'm glad some people here are actually attempting to share real information as opposed to trying to pick a "phone fight". I don't care who has the faster/better phone. I'm just trying to understand why people were saying the Apple A8 is a faster processor than the SD805 the when all the benchmarks seem to point in the opposite direction of their argument. :p

Apple's mind-control powers are still in full-form at least ;)
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
Antutu is a native application except the Runtime test, because, duh, that test is supposed to test the runtime. Go decompile their APK and native libraries if you want to prove me wrong. GeekBench is a native application. All browser benchmarks are Javascript interpreted on native code libraries

.

I responded to you in my first replies because you were spouting nonsense about how benchmarks work. You only brought up Antutu scores only several posts later, again, reading comprehension.

Oh I just love this. Both of you are arguing about how real-world performance is more important in measuring and yet here you are spouting how an aggregate synthetic multi-score proves that the S805 is better than the A8.

You're both full of it with zero computer science knowledge. Stop the clueless trolling for the sake of this thread and just keep it for yourselves.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] cmd512:
Lol @ "tweaked" kernel. My stock Samsung ROM with Xposed and Perseus kernel on my old S4 has less microlags vs several colleague's snapdragon S5s. Pretty embarrassing.

Enjoy your devices I say, but you're delusional if you think anything you've claimed and posted in the last few pages are with a damn.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
Exactly my point.

Haha. And you said something about reading comprehension ? :) Go read my posts again man, you've no idea what you're saying. We were arguing about raw processor power, NOT user experience.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
Because the benchmarks ARE better for A8 by a hefty margin.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8554/the-iphone-6-review/5

You basically took the GeekBench multi-score number to invalidated all other dozen tests for the sake of your argument.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
Yes, tweaking kernel is all you guys will ever by able to do with Exynos. You're condemned to that ugly, slow and buggy thing called Touchwiz. If I had to run Touchwiz, I'd rather buy a Nexus.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] cmd512:
Yes, you're finally getting it, that's all we NEED. We get the full features of a Samsung ROM driven by a custom kernel rewritten from the ground up to control many aspects of the hardware. And no, the end result is anything but slow.

Say whatever you need to help you cry yourself to sleep. I had a snapdragon S4 with the lame vanilla ROMs, you lose a **** ton of features. If you think that's a good trade-off, you're clearly living in cookoo land. [emoji1]
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
I was only talking about measuring real-world because unlike other users, I can only find benchmark results for comparison that aren't completely "low-level"/"close to the metal", meaning I have to speculate how much the Apple OS comes into play regarding benchmark scores. Someone earlier mentioned that benchmarks run native tests, but the popular benchmarks I've found (Antutu and Geekbench) are NOT running low-level, so aren't 100% accurate at comparing speeds from phones running different OS.

I'm viewing things in more of "potential". From what I've seen, the Note 4 has more potential for optimization and higher scores than the Apple A8, where Apple already optimized things "as far as they go".

I'm trying to find the speed of the processor. Not how fast the OS is...

"For those that are unfamiliar with our test suite the CPU-based tests are mostly browser-based benchmarks. "

You're putting us in a circle.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
You don't get it do you? GeekBench is fully native. Antutu is fully native except the Runtime test (which does exist on iOS because there is no runtime).
[Galaxy Note 4 General] tmac31:
This is just fun thread. In last pages people were saying we should laugh iphone cpu cuz its dual core 1.4ghz. Atleast they can see single core power is just better than s805 way better. 4 cores of s805 can get 10% better scores oh nice.. so its not a laughable cpu right? Its just a better cpu 3 cores of a8 is like 40% better than s805 in multicore score 3200 vs 4500 check a8x...

And about antutu it includes multitask ram gpu etc in its scores right. Whole conversation was about cpu here so no point taking antutu unless you are talking about just cpu test of antutu.

You guys are trolling yourself or not i wrote pages ago s805 isnt bad its still one of fastest cpus out there but its completly old in cpu part. And that single core scores prove it. What are you trying to prove? You were saying it was just os and a8 is laughable but its completly not tegra k1 and exynos proves it while running android.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
From Phone Arena's commentary on Geekbench...

"We don’t currently have the tools to run low-level tests closer to the metal, but good work on instruction parallelism optimizations is the likely culprit to this."

They said themselves Geekbench isn't a low-level test :\

And if you are arguing that it is low-level: the direct processor comparison said the Note 3's Snapdragon is faster than the Apple A8.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
You're so full of it.

Hey everybody, Mediatek managed to create a CPU equal to Apple's A8 in power:

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/compare/994391?baseline=1141837

I guess Apple wasted their time in creating a custom CPU, they could have just used 8 A7 cores like MediaTek!
[Galaxy Note 4 General] pedmond:
OK, I'm really tired of all this *****ing. Thread subscription removed...
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
Why are you going off on random tangents instead of refuting my evidence directly?

Nobody said the A8 is laughable. I'm just saying that all evidence points to it not being as fast as the Snapdragon 805 in terms of raw power. That's all I've been inquiring about from the start.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
By low-level, they're talking about serious 5-line code snippets which gives instruction-level information about the architecture, like what AnandTech does. These tests/tools are NOT benchmarks, they are analysis tools.

---------- Post added at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------

Because I just proved that your measure of raw power is utterly meaningless, that MediaTek SoC is as powerful as the A8 by your standards and methodology that you are using for argumentation here.

Do you seriously want to say that that MediaTek SoC is as powerful as the A8???
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
Okay, so they analyzed that the A8 is slower than the Snapdragon 805, which is what I've been saying all along...

Is the iPhone 6 faster in the real world? Yes! I'm not arguing about its real world performance. I'm simply trying to figure out if Apple has a slower processor but faster OS optimization, and everything we've argued about so far points to my exact conclusion.

Whatever pushes more gigaflops is the faster processor...I'm not sure why you're trying to complicate matters. The SD805 is measured to push more GFLOPS than the A8 - it's potentially faster than the A8 given proper optimizations. That's all I've been saying.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] huxley309:
Does anyone else skip past all the crap going on in this thread.

The bs meter must be through the roof.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
So pretty much this whole discussion is about you not understanding workload parallelism. The S805 cannot be potentially faster than the A8 because no matter how many cores make up to get to that aggregate GFLOPS number, you will not be able to split a given workload up over a greater number of cores to actually achieve that number. The real-use benchmarks are there, and the A8 destroys the S805 in all regards because of this reason.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] tmac31:
Nobody?

Phone 6 Plus: Apple A8 chipset – dual core 1.4GHz CPU, quad-core PowerVR GX6450 GPU, 1GB RAM

Galaxy Note 4: Qualcomm Snapdragon 805 chipset – quad-core 2.7GHz CPU, Adreno 420 GPU, 3GB RAM

How is that not worse ? On paper we should all laugh at the iphone.

This comment is from this thread. You are basically saying if you make 16 core cortex a7 cpu. And make it faster than s805 etc. All you need is os optimization and its totaly wrong. Its the whole point people wants explain. Single core matters alot you cant just avoid it and can take multi core score cuz basically most of the apps cant do that.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
You really don't know what you're talking about. Slowness of Touchwiz has nothing to do with the kernel man, it's just lazy and bad progamming of the UI by samsung. You can tweak the kernel all you want, there's no way it's going to run Touchwiz much better. You guys are just condemned to that ugly and slow thing called Touchwiz, while the snapdragon is going to get Vanilla android. THAT's why I just bought a snapdragon.

---------- Post added at 11:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 PM ----------

Why not ? Split work over 4 threads. s805 runs at 2x higher clockspeed but A8 processes 2x more instructions per cycle, so that evens out. However, s805 has 2x more cores, so theoretically, it can be 2 times faster than the A8 at certain tasks.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
Because programming doesn't work that way. The industry still hasn't overcome this problem in over 10 years, if it would be that simple, all the benchmarks would all reflect the synthetic multi-core numbers.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
Wow now it's getting interesting. Lecture me about how programming works according to you then, please !
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
You do realize how an app handles cores is a matter of optimization too, right?

Not once have I iterated that GHz and Cores are the end-all be-all of power. Processors can have less GHz and outperform a processor with more GHz. But differences in processor architecture can only be so large. For a 1.4 dual core processor to outperform a 2.7 quad core processor is possible, but very unlikely in a situation where they're in direct competition with each other. The difference in efficiency would have to be unrealistically massive - unless you're comparing that 1.4 dual core to a 1.4 dual core that was made for PCs a very long time ago.

Yes - having a stronger single core allows programs to run fast without having to be as optimized for multithreading or multiple cores. But if we were to compare a program that efficiently used both processors to their strengths, the Snapdragon easily surpasses the A8.

Remember how I mentioned earlier that the OS affects Antutu's scores? The UX score is a *heavily factored* score compared to the rest of the subsections of the benchmark.

iPhone 6+ UX Scores - Multitask: 8953, OC: 4062

Note 4 UX Scores - Multitask: 7345, Runtime: 1950

iPhone 6+ - CPU (Multithread) Integer: 2521 , CPU Float Point: 2854

Note 4 - CPU (Multithread) Integer: 3169 , CPU Float Point : 3892

(AndreiLux earlier said "The S805 cannot be potentially faster than the A8 because no matter how many cores make up to get to that aggregate GFLOPS number, you will not be able to split a given workload up over a greater number of cores to actually achieve that number" ) , if AndreiLux was right, how is it that Antutu does just that? Obviously those more cores and GhZ amount to something if the CPU is measured to be faster in raw power by the application itself.

It's plain as day that the Note 4's Snapdragon dominates the iPhone 6's A8, but it's exclusively the real-world benchmarking that brings the scores into the iPhone's favor. If we had an OS and programs that was optimized to fully take advantage of the SD processor, the Note 4 is obviously a great deal faster than the iPhone 6+.

(Source for iPhone 6+ Antutu scores: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXGAx9DnK0

My Note 4 scores were particularly low this benchmark (40k), but I used them anyways. )

Antutu does reflect the synthetic multi-core numbers...as displayed in my above post.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] AndreiLux:
Example: https://github.com/AndreiLux/Synapse/blob/master/src/main/java/com/af/synapse/MainActivity.java#L363

Let me know if you have any questions on how I multi-thread.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] gekkehenkie11:
LOL, shall I paste some part of my source code for my high frequency trading system, optimized for speed on 12 cores ? And FYI, of course I'm not coding JAVA but fast C++. JAVA is a joke when it comes to speed.
[Galaxy Note 4 General] t1337dude:
If you know everything about the limits of optimizing multi-threading, I'm sure there are plenty of big software corporations that would love your help because the majority are still in the process of figuring it out...