yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
Do you have proof that the cost was pushed to the customers instead of being paid for by corps and feds? And from a security standpoint, it actually is a pretty wonderful feature. Also, considering there is very small percentage of users who care (or even know what it is), knowing their devices are just that much more secure would make them feel better.

Knife in our backs? Hardly.. At some point since bootloader locks from VZW became commonplace (sometime since the S3 was released), you've had to re-sign a contract or bought a new phone that uses their service. There is no "knife" in anyone's back. Everyone who even knows what a locked/unlocked bootloader means (< 1% of all of their customers) and doesn't want one, yet willingly chooses to purchase a device or sign a contract knowing full well that the bootloader is locked, surely doesn't have a "knife" in their backs.

The only instance that would be considered intrusive is if a device was originally unlocked, but a recent OTA forced the user to a locked bootloader. Otherwise, it's fair game.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but we all need to realize that we

chose

to purchase a phone or sign a contract with a service provider that locks bootloaders, and expecting anything different after doing so is insanity.

Modified for today's standards...
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
But all you have done is argue...

No sir, I did not choose to have a locked bootloader. My last phone from Verizon did have an unlocked bootloader.

If your going to go out of your way to have a secure phone which is going to piss some people off then have a way for the small amount of people to make their phones unsecure.

Your a troll, if your disagree with this thread as you obviously do go somewhere else. This thread wasn't made so you could come lecture us on why they lock bootloaders and tell us that we are insane. Go buy an iPhone you troll.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] Hashbang173:
It says in is signature he has a Verizon Galaxy S5. Just Saying.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
It was more of an insult than an actual concern for which device he has...
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] DozenMadder:
It is possible that flashers are less than one percent of the users. My turn to ask where the proof is though. Most likely folks that really understand and desire specifically to have locked bootloaders are likely to be less than one percent as well.

Pay extra to remove the security features that were certainly expensive to develop? Why not people who want that feature pay extra to have it? Is that really so unreasonable of an idea?

I personally don't like that its getting harder and harder to have freedom. I don't like this trend in the industry. I fear more manufacturers and providers will go this way if we don't speak up, so I did speak up.

I think I've clarified my statement enough and don't wish to see this thread closed so I'll silence myself now and let others weigh in.

I'm sorry if I agitated or offended you.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
I sent an email last week to the VP like you did and I'm unhappy to report the results.

I recieved a call from a women from the "Office of the Executive VP"

She said we recieved your email about unlocking your bootloader blah blah blah. She knew exactly what it was(first person I ever spoke to at Verizon that knew what it was) and to make a long story short she said it's never going to happen.

I did however ask these 3 questions. I will add that she never had to check with anyone, she did not seem unconfident with these answers, she knew her **** and knew Verzion wasn't going to go for it.

1.

Q. I know an engineer for verizon that recieved an unlock for his bootloader on his non-dev phone(not for personal use for testing of network upgrades). Why is it ok for their phones to be on your network unlocked while you(Verizon) feel so strong about not having unlocked phones on your network?

A. Our engineers have to be able to do stuff like that(bascially, don't remember her exact words)

2.

Q. You all made a second version of the GS5 with an unlocked bootloader so you must be fine with an unlocked bootloader being on your network, could we figure a way out to allow users to exchange their phones for the dev versions?

A. You could sell your phone to someone or something like that, it's your phone, but Verizon won't have no part in exchanging it(bascially, don't remember her exact words)

3.

Q. Is there anything Verizon could do to help the users wanting a dev version of the GS5 such as rebates or trade ins with their still new GS5s?

A. No. (bascially, don't remember her exact words)

If anyone else wants to call here is her information

Marilyn (770) 521-5603

Op please add her phone number and name to post 1
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
All I've done is state the good ole truth, so, sorry if you feel "all I've done is argue" Since text on a screen can't show emotion of have sound, I can see how you'd think that. Sorry. But did you buy a retail S5? Of you did, then you chose to have a locked bootloader. If you don't have an S5, then why are you here?

The small group the knows what a locked boot loader is is small. Go do a survey. Stand by the local grocery store entrance and ask each person entering if they know what a locked boot loader is on a phone. Most people don't even know what a CPU is.

And I'm a troll? Really? Now we resort to name-calling? I never called you or anyone else insane. I just posted a quote with a modern twist for a bit of humor. Again, sorry if you (or anyone else...) Took offense to that. Have some fun and have a chuckle! I'm in this thread because I think it is a great idea if implemented properly. If you read back a page or three, you would see that. You're actually the one who came in here saying you would never pay them but instead pay a small company or whatever was not part of the original topic. So, really you don't agree with the topic either. :P

Back on topic....

In all honesty, I don't think this would ever happen unless Google steps up and makes it mandatory as part of the usage license for android. OEMs do what the carrier asks because that's where they get most of their money. And at the end of the day, that's what its about: money. Its a great idea that I would love to see implemented PROPERLY, but I thinks its just a dream.

To the OP, if you do get this going then awesome. I'll owe you a beer. :good:
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] cybershawngates:
$5
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] eragon5779:
It'd have to be a root beer. I'm underage
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ky5ever:
I once called Verizon several times and went through several people to try and get answers to unlocking the bootloader. Yeah, I know, trying to argue with them gets me no where, but hear me out.

I did gather some information related to them unlocking phones. I talked with some executives who talked about the possibility of allowing regular consumers to choose whether or not to include Samsung Knox (or similar programs) on their phones, for the sake of bloat and storage space. Consumers dont need a separate secure container for work use. They work at IGA, or at a gas station, or at an oil rig (for example). Its not an environment where phone security is important.

While it is also true, however, that very very few people know what a bootloader is, and why they care if its locked or not, the fact remains that Verizon, as well as other carriers, do ad a lot of bloat to their devices.

I think one god thing we could do, and actually get somewhere with, is send letters to the executives about storage space.

Tell them, for example, you bought a 16GB Samsung Galaxy S4 at Verizon, and on inspection of system settings, only 9GB of that is available. Yeah, formatting does remove some capacity, but not THAT much. Looking through your App Manager, you se a lot of the space is being used by non-removable Verizon apps, as well as some proprietary Samsung apps.

Tell them they should advertise the actual available space, or else allow users to remove apps they dont need. Yeah, getting a phone on subsidy means they can toss all those ads and bloat on the phone. But if that causes slowdowns, less available storage space than advertised, or removes core functionality that were to make it not be what it is (i.e., not being able to make a call makes it not be a phone), then we should be able to challenge that. We should be able to remove what we dont need after the fact, so we get the storage we paid for, we get the speed we paid for, we get the phone we paid for.

Granted, being able to remove bloat doesnt mean an unlocked bootloader, and getting root, which is relatively easy, allows us to do that without arguing with Big Red. But any bit of freedom is good. And that would make us one step closer to being able to do whatever we want with our phones.

Speaking of that, wouldnt being able to remove Samsung Knox actualy help us crack the bootloader? I dont know, so can anyone say?
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] landshark68:
Knox is completely separate from the bootloader and removing it would have no effect on trying to unlock the bootloader. Look at towelroot. While rooting with towelroot, users are asked if they want to disable Knox. Doing so had no effect on the locked bootloader.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
Just because I bought a phone doesn't mean I chose to have a locked bootloader. Are you telling me the 1000s of people that have bought phones that had their bootloaders locked never unlocked them? If they chose to have a locked bootloader why unlock it? How many phones on here(XDA) have bootloader unlock instructions? Why would anyone that CHOSE to have a locked bootloader unlock it? That's right because I chose to have a GS5 I never CHOSE to have it locked. Verizon CHOSE that, get it right.

Also I'm assuming if your trolling this forum that you indeed have an S5. I'm sure it's rooted and that you used Geohotz root method. Do me a favor and send him an email telling him that all his work is trash because all the jailbreaks he made for Apple is useless, because the people CHOSE to have a locked phone.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
The hostility you display in your wordage is uncalled for. But I'll try to respond to your response as respectfully as I can.

But you didn't just buy

a phone

. You bought a phone

with a

locked bootloader. The bootloader is part of the phone, the phone was bought by you. You bought a phone with a locked bootloader. You bought a locked bootloader.

What does this have to do with anything I said??? I'm confused...

Considering there is an unlocked variant available via Samsung, and you decided to purchase a retail variant with the locked bootloader, then yes, you chose to have a locked bootloader because you opted for the retail edition.

Again with the name-calling? When did I ever say it's useless????????? I'm so confused.....????????

I'm done with this discussion clogging this thread. OP, sorry for this. shootind5nukes, if you wish to continue discussing this with me in a civilized manner, please send me a PM. :good:
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] landshark68:
Dude, you don't have a clue. Check the Verizon S5 Android Development section. The guy you are insulting and calling names built a ROM for this phone. Yeah, that definitely makes him a troll. SMDH.

To the OP and MrHyde: Sorry to drag this out and clutter up the thread for one more post, but I had to say something. That is all I have to say.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
If he's coming here to argue what we were trying to do here makes him a troll. Furthermore check post 1 a little better to confirm that this thread wasn't to argue if you bought a locked bootloader or not it was to see what people would be willing to pay. That makes him a troll.

I'm glad he makes ROMS but to come to this thread repetedly to tell us we chose to buy a locked bootloader wasn't helpful to this thread

Think about what a troll is. He came in here when he didn't care about the thread, he was telling us pretty much that our thread was useless.

troll.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
Well... since it seems everyone missed what I actually stated in regards to this thread, here it is again :D

Originally from Post # 79
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ky5ever:
Check this website. This blog is one of the sites I cited when I talked with the engineer. When he transferred me to the KNOX team, they said they were unaffiliated with the blog, and said I should not follow any instructions on the blog or it could damage my device. Remember, they were all Verizon employees. They are gonna say that crap so I wont try to bypass their security.

That website talks about how Knox is integrated into the bootloader, and can monitor and protect boot files (to prevent rooting, or at least make it hard, since we already have root) as well as lock the bootloader so it cant run unsigned kernels, using Kernel-Lock.

KNOX isnt the bootloader, so disabling it doesnt unlock the bootloader, but it is highly integrated.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ryanbg:
Here's my two cents:

Verizon Wireless does not advertise their bootloader restrictions. T-Mobile does not advertise they sell devices with unlocked bootloaders. Verizon does not sell the unlocked variant. The unlocked variant releases far later than the locked variant. I am a paying customer, and I am paying Verizon Wireless. As a paying customer, I am not satisfied with owning a device that has restrictions put in place by an entity that does not own the device. I pay for the network and service, I own the device outright. I have every right, as long as I am a customer, to complain and whine until their ears bleed. It's Verizon's job to keep their paying customers paying, which entails keeping them happy.

While we may be a small demographic, we are still a demographic of theirs. The unlocked variant isn't even advertised, you have to be in the know to even know it exists. While I'm not entitled to an unlocked bootloader, I am entitled as a customer to complain if I am not satisfied with a product or service. The unlocked Note 3 is merely a band-aid on Samsung's behalf, albeit awful support. I did not knowingly purchase a locked device, again Verizon does not advertise this. We only know because we already purchased the device. If you called them and asked, the average rep would scratch their head if you asked them if their device is bootloader unlocked.

To clarify the Knox business...

Knox is a suite of software and tools. Knox entails trusted boot via TIMA and Qualcomm's implmentation of SecureBoot, in addition to Aboot signature checks. Knox is not simply the containers, and it's not simply the bootloader. It's an enterprise suite of tools/services. The bootloader is not called 'Knox' but is very much apart of the 'Knox' solution. Condeming a user for referring to the bootloader as Knox isn't exactly conducive or beneficial to anyone. It's also of importance to note that there isn't a single bootloader. There's the SBL, ABOOT, PBL, and other parts of the bootchain.

On another note, I've got someone from BGCO Executive Escalations (Business and Government Customer Operations) who politely left me a message to chat about my concerns. While I know this probably won't be a fruitful conversation, it doesn't hurt to make Verizon aware of your concerns. The least we can all do is try, and keep trying.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
As per free speech, yes you are. And it's then Verizon's choice to act upon such complaints. A good service provider (for any service) will keep an open ear to customers. But at the end of the day, if they're not losing profits and their service is still great, chances are they wouldn't change anything.

Well, a little research before purchasing (and based of the past two or three years of locked bootloaders across all devices), one could quickly figure out it was locked before it was even released.

This goes back to the first point above. Keeping their ears occupied they may eventually listen. :good:
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
What about the people with upgrades after their 2 year contract. Like the GS3 who came up for upgrade when the GS5 came out. GS3 had an unlocked bootloader.

How was I supposed to know that Verizon did some big change on the 4.3 firmware to lock the bootloaders. Why would I even look? Did you check to see if the GS5 shot lazer beams? No you didn't cause why would you check for something like that when it wasn't an issue with the last one you had? In retrospect I could see how looking it up would have been valueable but to tell someone about the past 2 or 3 years of devices that's beside the point. Did you research all devices to know they had locked bootloaders? Do you think everyone does that? No, this device is unlocked why wouldn't the next device from the same carrier and manufacture be any different.

Should everyone check every new device from now on to see when cuss words will be blocked in text messages? Should we check to see when flash light apps will be banned because of LED damage? Will the GS6 get rid of 3 way calling? Let's start a thread of random stuff that might be changed in new devices so no one runs into this issue again.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
Not quite... The Verizon GS3 had a locked bootloader

from

day

1

. Don't believe me? Look here. The only reason the I535 had an unlocked bootloader was not because the bootloader was unlocked, but because we got ahold of a bootloader which just so happened to

already be unlocked

and was compatible with the device up until 4.3. Don't believe me? See this post also.

The same had to be done for the Verizon Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 (I705). It shipped with a locked bootloader but myself and a few others were able to get our hands on an unlocked bootloader. Look here

This can be answered by my previous responses.

Your arguments are invalid. It's been common knowledge for the past 2 or 3 years that Verizon is in the habit of locking bootloaders. If you would've used this argument 2 or 3 years ago, it would be valid.

Also: Laser beams? really? For everyone's sake and the sake of this thread.. please lose the attitude. I'm trying to have a calm and civil discussion with you but you keep throwing out names or sarcastic remarks like "laser beams". Let's be civil :good:
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
reguardless, it was unlocked. Why would anyone assume that the GS5 be any different?
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] wrongway213:
what i got from this thread:

a) laser beams are the future and will be implemented, assuming when flashlight apps are banned?

b) prominent developer of a well-liked rom for a device with next to no support due to security = troll.

...that about cover how ridiculous this has gotten?
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] eragon5779:
Alright everyone. Please take the arguing elsewhere. I don't want this thread clogged any more than it already is or shut down. Those who are backing up the thread or posting as per the guidelines of the OP, thank you.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
It still is possible to get our hands on a leaked insecure bootloader or for someone to exploit the current bootloader. However likely it actually is is yet to be seen.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ryanbg:
My sources say that insecure aboot is rare now even in the Engineering and Research department. Only those who need it have it.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
I have a buddy that recieved a bootloader unlock via samsung via Verizon to install a special ROM made by samsung. Could he dd his insecure boot off his phone, or is a Samsung unlock different?
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] Hashbang173:
What baseband/bootloader was he on before?
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ryanbg:
It works a little different now. Each developer device has it's own aboot, with a unique, device specific key/hash/signature, and the R&D guys usually have devices without the authenticated bootchain fuses blown..
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
Just so I'm not confused, it's not a dev edition. It's the retail addition. But I understand that's it's phone specific. Thanks

As far as what baseband and bootloader he was on before I'm unsure and I'm sure he is. He didn't fully understand what they had done to his phone, now he does. He even has the file that unlocked his phone, but he won't give me a copy. He says his IMEI and other info is tied into it so sharing could and would likely get him fired.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] BigBot96:
If he's willing to dd out his aboot (not give you the file to unlock it), there may be someone willing to dd it to their own device with all risks involved.. (Not me... Lol). However, these types of unlocks where we overwrite our aboot with an insecure aboot may not work anymore.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ryanbg:
Instant permanent brick SD Card will not bring it back to life either, USB dead. I've done it. I had to rewrite the entire eMMC chip from the mainboard via ISP. Don't mess with TrustZone (tz.mbn), Secondary Boot Loader (sbl1.mbn), Resource and Power Manager (rpm.mbn), or Android Bootloader (aboot.mbn).
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] wrongway213:
I am not nearly tech-savy enough to understand that - a lot of that was borderline incomprehensible to me if I am being honest. However, I have gathered that there are a large amount of people who really, really want their bootloaders unlocked, and honestly if that amount of work is what it takes to obtain an unlocked bootloader, I am willing to bet there is someone who would be more than willing to invest the time into it.. I would not even be surprised to see someone make that great of an effort just to "spite Verizon", per se, given the disdain we have seen in this very thread for locked bootloaders.

So, what I really am curious about is, after that rewriting process you did via ISP that I understand absolutely none of, did you end up with an unvilocked bootloader? Or did that simply get your device back from brick to a working state? I'm guessing that if I knew enough to understand your post that I would not have to ask, but I am quite curious about the possibility of an unlocked bootloader, even if it's entirely theoretical and in no way practical at this juncture.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] thewebsiteisdown:
He just got it working again that's all, nothing was unlocked after.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] joshua.justice:
Any one have any progress?
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ryanbg:
Any chance you can get me in touch with him??
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
Sure, I'll PM you. He won't even write me back at this point cause he knows I want it, I think he's very concerned that it might cost him his job. Don't give his name out cause I think he'll delete his account if too many people write him about it.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] joshua.justice:
There has to be some way to replicate the bootloader unlock without revealing his imei or anything.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
I'm sure the unlock is coded for only his phone. Even if we get it it's douptful it'll do us any good....
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] joshua.justice:
You'd probably need it from at least two phones to see hours the code is generated.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
exactly. One I don't think will ever do us any good. surely it's better than nothing
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ryanbg:
The key generated would be unique, using unique device data such as the IMEI or CID. You would already have the necessary information, we'd just need to see the format of this file and how the information is embedded.
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] shootind5nukes:
That's my point. You would need 2 or 3 of the unlocks to put together how the key is generated. I don't see how one would be useful, but it's better than nothing
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] EnUfor:
Honestly, at this point if be willing to pay the $100 to have my S4 unlocked
[Verizon Galaxy S 5 General] ShapesBlue:
I think $50 is reasonable. Although I am unlocked on my S3 I still feel that it should be an option and verizon could make a killing on top of it