yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[P3600 General] Lucas0511:
Reply from HTC´s support:

"Dear Sir,

The GPS is not yet available on the P3600, I believe this will come through a software upgrade but we do not have yet a date for its release. However, the P3300 is available now and has an inbuilt GPS system.

Thank you for your enquiry. Should you need further assistance, please do not hesitate to call us. Your local number can be found at:

http://www.europe.htc.com/support/cs_by_phone.html

Best Regards

Candylor Salahou

callservice@htceurope.com

http://www.htc.com"

But as we know from experience, callcenter supporters sometime do not know what they are talking about... :-) The verdict is still open...
[P3600 General] XenoV:
@lmf_slacker: Would not worry about any performance conflict due to GPS problems. The GPS functionallity of the chipset is separated from the phone functionallity. When the GPS part is not adressed by software it is simply not there and can't interfere with anything else.

As far as prices concern: Lowest price I've seen here in Holland is 525 euro ( approx sgd1055). Guess tax differences play a role here.
[P3600 General] XenoV:
LOL

Yes I'm a believer too, though rather know it for sure :eek:

So besides some more hope nothing news ;)
[P3600 General] Guybrush:
I don't believe hardware conflict by HTC.... i just think they had disabled GPS for give more market to P3300...
[P3600 General] XenoV:
This would really be a "amateur" marketing strategy which I don't believe for a number of reasons:

usually a manufacutrer starts with the top model, followed by less performing models. This has proven to gain more cash.

the trinity was scheduled for september and the artemis should come thereafter.

first early prototypes for testing had the GPS enabeled, but due to very bad performance GPS was disabled in later test models.
[P3600 General] manisa236:
Here's a good review.. in French.

http://www.mobinaute.com/mobinaute/article.php?id=20061113194219
[P3600 General] manisa236:
Well.. I read the article with my limited French..

Soon-to-be-activated GPS has been mentioned couple of times, but no details about the actual chipset (SiRF or not etc.).

So, the verdict is still well-open.

I just hope by GPS they don't mean AGPS capability of the Qualcomm GSM chipset the device has. That'd be a real bummer..
[P3600 General] Lucas0511:
Thanks manisa, interesting review. The review refers in fact to the A-GPS capabilities of the Trinity. As I understand A-GPS, correct me if I am wrong, is Location Based Service-GPS (from the nearest GSM/UMTS cell tower) info combined with GPS satellite info via GPRS or UMTS. A-GPS is for example available in Austria ("3" provider), but no success. Go figure.

This info would fit into my knowledge that France Telecom´s Orange unit starts to push A-GPS now, with Trinity available as M700.

"Ne possédant pas premièrement de fonctions GPS, le PDAPhone sera mis à jour en début d'année prochaine pour exploiter ses fonctionnalités A-GPS associées jusque là désactivées en standard."

Funny Babelfish translation:

"not having firstly functions GPS, PDAPhone will be updated at the beginning of next year to exploit its functionalities A-GPS associated until decontaminated there out of standard." :-))))
[P3600 General] anonimo:
At the moment I would settle for a P3600 user's manual. It's a bit strange that 9 days before supposed availability we haven't seen any documents but two leaflets on the HTC site.
[P3600 General] XenoV:
More positive GPS news from an more or less official source: See the link below.

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/5763.html
[P3600 General] jsp_m:
they just translated the same txt we did... no new news
[P3600 General] XenoV:
@jsp_m

Sorry, posted the link before reading latest additions :eek:
[P3600 General] forcedalias:
I second that, bro.

I definitely wouldn't buy it if it has a lesser GPS-unit inside than the Artemis.
[P3600 General] XenoV:
@forcedalias

I don't think it will be AGPS only as AGPS needs provider data to function, so AGPS could not be qualified as "standalone".

The Artemis has a SiRF III GPS receiver.

The Tinity might make use of the GPS-ONE receiver from the chipset supplier Quallcom. How GPS-ONE performs as "standalone" application is not known to me. From rumours I've heard it's not as good as SiRF III. In combination however with AGPS (we need a supporting provider here) GPS-ONE would out-perform SiRF III.

It is still possible though that HTC did put SiRF III GPS hardware in the box. Also because they experienced a lot of trouble with the Quallcom design. Guess we will know more soon. The first one who is willing to disassemble his new toy will be able to tell us :)
[P3600 General] forcedalias:
Booh! HTC! Booh!

That's the thing, I don't want any dependence on cellphone towers, I just want to be anywhere in the world and able to get my position.

Worst part is down to my lack of patience (I've been waiting since the whole PDA-phone fad started) for my first PDA phone and I really thought this one would be it so I went and pre-ordered my P3600.

God damn it. Looks like I will have to sell it on eBay once I get it. What a waste of time and money.
[P3600 General] lmf_slacker:
>Xenov - ok glad to hear that coz i don't wanna get my hands on a set n problem start arising due to the conflict causing more conflicts in the set! hahaha...

seems like the price in my country is quite high (sgd1298) for the Trinity, many people i come across all complained about the initial release price due to the unresolved GPS issue, i believe some will change their mind and get other devices instead...
[P3600 General] lmf_slacker:
'by first quarter of 2007'? hmm that will be between next jan til apr in which its not confirmed also... what a wait it will be but if the problem can be resolved when they release the solution then it will be worth the long wait
[P3600 General] XenoV:
First quarter of 2007 applies to the Orange branded device. As far as I know the HTC P3600 version will be available in europe next week.
[P3600 General] Gilbert:
Hi,

I read the manual and there is no mention of GPS capability on the device. Just wondering if HTC even deleted any reference to it in the manual and will surprise us all with an activation mechanism sometimes in year 2007?

Thanks,

Gilbert
[P3600 General] XenoV:
I've read the manual too and couldn't find a word on GPS either.

So far the only formal references made by HTC are:

the brochure (first post in this threat)

an email from their support dept stating they

think

GPS will be made available by software upgrade, no releasedate known yet

The software upgrade has also been mentioned by telecom provider Orange. As far as I remember Orange said the update will be available in january 2007. Especially in Europe GPS is a huge sales argument as GPS is highly popular here. So, besides HTC understanding this, also Orange will put some pressure to make GPS "available shortly".

Though we have to realize there is still a risk: It still may turn out the HTC hardware design is not suitable for proper GPS functionallity. Then HTC cannot provide a software update to make GPS available on the currently manufactured devices....

For the moment the only thing we can do is wait and see what happens....
[P3600 General] futureshock:
sorry,... but the devices that are going around today has definitly no gps...

i think these forseries products should have it... to test... and when not good then in the final devices it is not available...

also i think thats not a little hw change in the device... because of that i don't really think that it maybe will be available with software update... strange thing ...

i hope in near future theres an pda phone with GPS and 3G & HSDPA... may already with HSDPU ... (my provider has testet this a few weeks ago.. -> http://www.teltarif.de/arch/2005/kw23/s17412.html found german news only..)
[P3600 General] devon:
I contacted HTC support via email regarding the GPS ... they responded, I wrote back asking for clarification, saying "I have a boat, and I want to use GPS in the middle of the ocean, far far away from cell phone towers - will the Trinity be able to do this".

I'm waiting for a response, if same turnaround as the first human reply it should be 24h or so ... I'll post their response to the email thread here when I hear anything.

I've spent about 8h trying to get a good answer on this, right now I'd say it's pretty likely there's a GPSone chip in there - bad news, as your cell phone carrier has to provide ancillary service for the Trinity's GPS to work and they will quite certainly charge for it if they do.

So far...:

_________________________________________________________

Hello [snip],

Thank you very much for the quick response. Is this GPS chipset one which can operate without the assistance of a cellular network (eg would it work in the middle of the ocean) or does it require a cellular network with a special service activated in order to pinpoint your position (as is the case with gpsOne chips).

I have a boat, and would like to use it in the ocean - far, far away from any cell phone towers. Will the HTC Trinity be able to do this?

Thanks in advance,

Devon

HTC Technical Hotline Support wrote:

> Customer email address:[snip]

> Hello Devon

>

> Yes, this is correct. The GPS chipset in the device has been disabled at present, while we write a new firmware for the device. Once this ROM has been released the GPS chip will be activated.

>

> Yours sincerely

> [snip]

> callservice@htceurope.com

> http://www.htc.com

>

----Original Message----

Caller_Name: Devon

Mobile_Number: [snip]

Calling_From: gb

E_Mail: [snip]

Date= [snip]

Customer phone model= htcp3600

Problem_Description= I have heard rumors that the HTC P3600 has a GPS chip in it which will be activated in a future ROM update ... is this true?

Thanks,

Devon

Customer PC= acer

Customer PC model=

Customer PC OS= winxpsp2

Customer PC other=

Troubleshooting info= Not coming from troubleshooting guide

D
[P3600 General] XenoV:
Excellent try! Really hope you manage to get more precise info! So please keep us informed about the progress.
[P3600 General] futureshock:
... when...

when a gps receiver is inside the phone... we just can see it!!

anyone now have already a trinity should open it and look for the chip... maybe theres no gps inside the presale devices but i don't think so... gps is just a big hardware fact and can't easly ripped out of the hw layer design...

...

just waiting for first pics of the inside...
[P3600 General] llemtt:
No need to open it! Trinity is built around the Qualcomm chipset which has integrated gpsOne functions.

gpsOne is usually operated in AGPS (assisted GPS) mode giving 5-10m accuracy, but it can be operated also stand-alone with less (but unpublished) accuracy.

Assistance from network is mainly indications on which satellites to use for positioning; my understanding of this is that the integrated GPS receiver has very few channels, compared to the usual 8-20 of today receivers, and the selection of the best satellites to use is demanded to the network: this way it draws less current and it's faster, two very important things in a mobile phone that lets you keep the gps always on without the risk to need a charge in the middle of the day..

Without network assistance expect performances not comparable with current receivers.

Everything is somehow documented on the qualcomm site.

teo
[P3600 General] devon:
OK, here's an updated thread of my conversation with HTC support. The first part of the conversation is above (#72) ... still questioning whether he knows what he's talking about, but that's probably just my skepticism. Sounds promising anyway.

(read from the bottom)

Devon

_______________________________________________

Customer email address:? [snip]

?

Dear Mr.? Devon [snip]

Thank you for contacting HTC Europe support

In response to your query the gps antenna on the 3600 is switch off, but in the future we are going to provide our costumers with a new upgrade to turn on this option in the device.

If you use the device on the open sea it will work "if you use an external antenna" this will work as well when the new upgrade is coming up, GPS don't have any relation with service operators?or GSM "cell signal", gps depends only of a certain number of active satellites to provide you with your position.

Please don't hesitate to contact us back if this doesn't solve your query

Kind regards

[snip]

HTC Europe Support

[snip]

HYPERLINK "http://www.htc.com/"http://www.htc.com

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hello [snip],

Thanks for the quick response. Your answer is very clear, and if you are right then the issue is closed and I'm going to happily go out and buy the p3600 (trinity).

However, there is still the confusion of this issue: this article

http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools

which provided the image that I have attached regarding the internal structure of the p3600, clearly indicates that the HTC p3600 has a GPSOne chip (I've circled it in orange), not the industry standard which is SirfstarIII.

The first link in a google search of GPSOne is this one from Qualcomm who makes it:

http://www.cdmatech.com/products/gpsone.jsp

and it states that GPSOne is reliant on wireless service providers in order to function. If the Trinity uses GPSOne as it's GPS system, then it appears that it would not in fact function in the middle of the ocean.

So either the Trinity doesn't use the GPSOne chip, or the Qualcomm website above is wrong, or I'm misunderstanding things (and if I am, please explain), or the Trinity does *not* have standalone GPS that would function in the middle of the ocean far far outside the range of wireless service provider's towers.

Can you please confirm, I'm really quite confused here.

Thanks in advance for your time, it is appreciated.

Devon

[snip] wrote:

> In response to your query the service of the gps is totally non dependent

> of

> the call operator service, when you use the gps you are receiving the

> signals

> from satellites not from a carrier or any cell antenna.

>

> If you are using the device in the sea, you should check the type of

> software

> that you can use to navigate and check also for signal quality in the sea,

> as

> my personal experience on merchant ships, why usually used external

> antennas to

> amplify the quality of the reception.

>

> Please don't hesitate to contact us back if this doesn't solve your query
[P3600 General] XenoV:
@Devon

The fact this person is talking about antennas tells me that the person does not

really

know what he/she is talking about. So you're not the only one.

Promising, yes, but.... sofar HTC continues to refuse (also by my own experience) to get a crisp and clear message into the world about the real (future) GPS capabillities. Most probably they will keep refusing this untill they resolved the said firmware problems.

Though more than anyone else I hope you will succeed and get a clear answer from HTC one of these days.

@IIemtt

This is the very best and shortest explaining summary of GPS-ONE I have read so far. Very clarifying. However we still don't know for sure which RF-head is used in the Trinity, this could also be a non-Qualcomm solution. If so, this might explain the difficulties HTC has with their firmware.
[P3600 General] devon:
Update: received this (which is from someone else @ HTC support) this morning. Much more clear. My only questions now are whether the GPSone chip is compatible with tomtom etc when not using the gsm network, and whether the accuracy in this situation would be sufficient for road navigation.

Since the chip is not yet activated I guess we'll have to wait until people install the upcoming update and actually try to use tomtom etc with it.

I'm going to read the link she sent me and maybe try to followup with the woman who gave the response below (as she clearly knows what she's talking about).

Does anyone have any first hand experience with GPSone chips and navigation software ... does it work well enough w/o the gsm network??

Devon

>Good Afternoon,

>

> The Trinity utilizes a Qualcomm GPS one chip, but it has not been

> activated as it conflicts with the Quad-band GSM chip at the moment.

> The GPS one chip supports A-GPS (assisted GPS) and will combine GPS

> positioning with GSM/GPRS/UMTS technology (where there is a gsm signal).

> The advantage is to get more accurate positioning and also is useful

> for location based services. Please read on:

> http://ubikwitus.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_ubikwitus_archive.html

> If a GSM/GPRS/UMTS network is not available then the GPS module could

> be theoretically used as a stand alone device to get GPS positioning

> on the sea, but at the moment it is deactivated. Also you would

> require nautical maps to get accurate readings.

>

> Best regards,

>

> [snip]

> HTC Support

> [snip]

> http://www.htc.com
[P3600 General] XenoV:
@Devon

Okay, a much better response from HTC this time, but still nothing really new.

The GPS functionallity in the Trinity consists of two parts. First the Qualcomm 6275 chip which contains the processing part and provides the possibillity of assitence by cellphone towers (AGPS). Second part is the RF-head which is the actual sattellite receiver (a still unknown chip).

- We know already everything about the 6275 and the abillity to provide location based services. Superb, but this is not what we are really interested in.

- Based upon the last mail from the HTC lady we may assume, but not be sure, that the RF-head is also a Qualcomm solution. If this is true then the GPS-ONE summary posted by IIemtt becomes valid.

Stand alone precision of a Qualcomm RF-head is said to be 15 meters(info from Italian reviewer), with a slow TTFF (time to first fix) due to limited number of monitoring channels in the RF-head GPS receiver. The TTFF issue can be resolved by offline data derived from internet containing approximate sattellite positions.

Based upon own experience with early GPS receivers (also at best 15 meters precision) I can tell that this is sufficient for road navigation with fi TomTom.

Latest SiRF III receivers are from time to time also 15m or more off from the real position, so the slight decrease in precision would not be something to really worry about.
[P3600 General] llemtt:
RF head

The RF head is a RFR6250

http://www.cdmatech.com/products/diagram_rfr6250.html
[P3600 General] S0NIC:
Provider Orange France:

"le SPV M700 possède bien un GPS intégré... Il n'a pas été activé par le fabricant. Courant premier trimestre 2007, le fabricant mettra à disposition une mise à jour logicielle qui ré-activera le GPS intégré. En attendant, il est nécessaire d'utiliser une antenne GPS externe."

...which means...

"The SPV M700 has integrated GPS but it is currently not activated by the manufacturer. During the first quarter of 2007, they will make a software update available that will activate the integrated GPS. Until this time, an external GPS is required."

src= http://mobile.orange.fr/0/visiteur/...gation_gps/fiche_mobile/orange_spv_m700.shtml

src= http://www.modaco.com/index.php?showtopic=248461
[P3600 General] anonimo:
It seems we are getting into a hard loop here! :)
[P3600 General] autolycos:
Straight from the source:

http://www.europe.htc.com/z/pdf/products/HTC_PRODUCT_BROCHURE_V2_111006.pdf

"Packed with technology, the HTC

P3600 supports standalone GPS* to

keep you connected wherever you

travel. The combination of Microsoft®

Windows Mobile®5.0 with 3G, Quad-

Band EDGE, Wi-Fi®and Bluetooth®

2.0 all in a slick phone, designed

for work and play."

* Available shortly
[P3600 General] XenoV:
Gentlemen please read the thread before you post

@autolycos:

The info you provide is already mentioned in the very first post of this thread.

@sonic:

Sorry, but we knew this for a while already.
[P3600 General] XenoV:
llemtt do you assume this is the RF head or know this for sure?
[P3600 General] Manne:
If there is a GPS receiver inside the Trinity, how does one connect an external GPS antenna to the device? Does anyone know?
[P3600 General] XenoV:
The P3600 has one external antenna connection which is only to be used for the cellphone function.

As far as I can see it now there will be no provision for a hard wired external GPS antenna. There are however also external GPS antennas which re-radiate the GPS signals near the device GPS antenna without the need for a hard wired connection. If there is need for an external antenna you may as well consider an external bluetooth GPS receiver.
[P3600 General] jasjamming:
Anyone Dare to Open their Trinity UP to see if it has a SIRFIII GPS unit in it?

From what I have read, the GPS unit conflicts with the Qualcomm Chipset - thats why its not enabled at present (due to software problem)

So based on that, maybe the trinity doesnt use the GPSone module in the Qualcomm chipset itself (because there will be no conflict as qualcomm made the chipset). It maybe in fact that there is a "standalone" chipset (might be SIRFIII) in the unit itself.

Does anyone have the guts to check?
[P3600 General] Lucas0511:
Peer at France Telecom´s Orange future lab has received Trinity usability training from HTC, says the device exists indeed in a version with a SiRF III chip complimentary to Qualcomms A-GPSone offering, but the two services do not work side by side - a big disappointment for Orange, who wanted to start its A-GPS service introduction Dec. 14 with the Trinity. Orange has already samples with activated and working GPSone chip in their lab, under testing.
[P3600 General] Azamat:
Could it be that the P3600's that are sold today do not have the SiRF III Chips in it but an other version does...???

Hope not, cuz I ordered it 2 days ago
[P3600 General] jasjamming:
Based on this, in the HTC Product PDF file in states - standalone GPS*

*available soon

- I beleive they are referring to the SIRFIII Chipset as it is standalone by nature.

If it didnt state "standalone" then implicitely it will mean A-GPS - gpsone from qualcomm.

Cheers
[P3600 General] XenoV:
A pure Qualcomm GPS implementation consists of two chips. One chip for processing (which provides also the "Assisted" part, AGPS) and one chip for sattellite reception, called the RF-head.

Such a Qualcomm implementation can also function as stand-alone, without assistance of data from cellphone towers. The Qualcomm chipset is designed for 24/7 operation and thus has a very low power consumption (battery life) compared to for instance a SiRF III.

The backdrop of a Qualcomm RF-head is that, in order to keep the power consumption low, it has only a few receiving channels compared to the nowadays common 20 channels in a SiRF III RF-head.

This means that a Qualcomm RF-head without "assistance" will perform less than a SiRF III (accuracy and first time to fix). With "assistance" the Qualcomm outperforms the SiRF III.

The assumption that there might be a SiRF III RF-head connected to the Qualcomm 6275 processing chip inside the Trinity is not new. This might be also the explanation why HTC has the said problems with the firmware.

The said firmware problems are also speculation. Another speculation is that the reseller Orange obtained the right to be the first with Trinity GPS. For this reason HTC could hold back the GPS ROM update. Not very smart though (and therefore maybe not true) as the HTC P3600 would be immediately a wordlwide topseller when offered with GPS functionallity.
[P3600 General] Lucas0511:
@XenoV

Orange is only interested in the A-GPS functionality, that´s for sure, they want to sell that service, combined with LBS (Location Based Services) infos.
[P3600 General] XenoV:
Sure understand that. For this reason a "Trinity GPS first" may fit into their marketing strategy. Besides that I just wonder if any LBS will sell well. Just can't imagine the "average" user is interested in such, but maybe I think too conservative.