yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Topics] oldblue910:
The title pretty much says it all. It annoys the crap out of me how so many simplified root scripts can't just root the device and stop there. The system partition is not the appropriate place for anything but the absolute necessities. For people who make root scripts, I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you that, as of Android 4.3 and higher, there are exactly four files required to live on /system in order to root a device (assuming you're using SuperSU as your root app of choice, since it's the most popular by a mile):

/system/bin/.ext/.su

/system/xbin/su

/system/xbin/daemonsu

/system/etc/install-recovery.sh

That's it. No busybox, no Superuser.apk installed in /system, no deleting apps that you just assume nobody would ever want, no nothing. Those four files. That's it! How hard is this? Oh, and if an install-recovery.sh script already exists, then rename it to install-recovery-2.sh so it still runs. Don't just overwrite it because you assume nobody in their right mind would want to knowingly keep stock recovery.

When you start deleting stuff off of people's system partition, it makes the probability of failure for future OTA updates very high. This same thing holds true when you install busybox into /system/bin. Don't. Do. That. On that same note, don't install Superuser.apk on the system partition. Let people install it themselves from the Play Store. Just provide that as a step in your instructions. One less thing being added to one's system partition is a good thing. Rooting should be as minimal and non-disruptive as humanly possible. Once those four files are there and permissions are set appropriately, you have root and can do whatever you want.

Let busybox, system app deletions, stock recovery install scripts, etc. all be up to the individual user rather than you trying to impose something on them

Rant over.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] BirchBarlow:
From reading this forum daily, it seems to me that toolkits are doing more harm than good. The Nexus has to be the easiest device there is to unlock and root, yet these toolkits are encouraging people to tinker who frankly have no idea what the hell they're doing, and when they inevitably bork their device and the toolkit can't fix it, they come here for help. We try to help them in earnest, but because they know absolutely nothing, even with guidance, they still can't fix it.

And so on, and so forth. I'm not saying this to be mean or mock anyone, but if you can't follow simple instructions to unlock and root without the assistance of a toolkit, then you shouldn't be modding in the first place. The Nexus 5 is very easy to mod, and very difficult to hard-brick, you just have to know what you're doing. If you know what you're doing, then when you run into trouble, you'll most likely be able to fix it without any help, and even if you do need help, you'll actually understand how to do what people are telling you to do to fix it.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] simms22:
im probably the #1 proponent against root toolkits. there's way too much grief for many that use them. but, they shouldnt be banned. the problem is when people that are new to modding use them. these people mostly dont educate themselves as well. so when the have the tiniest of issues, or when some simple upkeep needs to be done, they are lost. and many times end up doing worse things to their phone. for the user that knows about the phone, and modding, they are fine. essentially, its not the root toolkit thats the issue, but the users themselves. of course, sometimes the root toolkits create their own issues, but i wont go there.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danarama:
Its a tricky one. Sometimes when im struggling with drivers, a toolkit can help me out BUT there's the issue of new user's doing things they dont understand....whilst not learning ....

Personally I think we need to try and educate people against them but I've needed their help in the past
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] jd1639:
I don't think the issue is tool kits, I agree that they aren't necessary, but nobody seems to want to learn these days. Everyone seems to want something right now and feels entitled to an answer. It's not only here but in society too. But enough of that.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] CRIME INC.:
Lol was about to post the exact same comment. Props jd1639

sent from my HAMMERHEAD neXus
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Murrda:
What about facepalm rumrunner juopunut bear etc etc.. Those are all basically toolkits that handle multiple things like root s-off unlock compacted down to a few quick clicks made easy for the very technical exploits and unlocks?? Where one wrong key entry could potentially brick a device. That goes for experienced and inexperienced users. I think they are a good idea but in no way shape or form think that a user shouldn't be uneducated in what they are doing. If you are here then you should read and thoroughly understand what you are doing and know exactly why you are here!
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Andrew149:
Agreed, especially on windows 7 when you have a Samsung device and a nexus and the drivers conflict.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Alex240188:
But that is the point. A toolkit should be for the automaton of difficult, lengthy or risky processes.

Processes such as unlocking the bootloader

Fastboot OEM unlock

And flashing recoveries

Fastboot flash recovery xyz.img

Flashing factory image

Double click flashall.bat

Should never be included in any toolkit. Period.

There should be a basic level of understanding before doing anything but as has been said. People are becoming more and more stupid and don't want to understand what is actually happening.

I do feel sorry for us main few who are often actively attending these posts on xda.

Fingers point at the direction of Simms and rootsu who I often see answering the same stupid questions over and over.

What is happening to humanity!

I can understand if access to information is not available but there is plenty of documentation about how to do pretty much everything in this day and age but people don't seem to want to learn.

Enough ranting as nothing will change.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] El Daddy:
I wrote a similar thread 2 years ago. http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1469909

Things have definitely gotten better since then. The people who actively remind new users about using fastboot and adb instead has increased. However, there are still a ton of panic threads about things people should know before they unlock and root their phone.

I don't think they should be banned, however it do disagree with them being featured on the Nexus 5 main page. They do have their place, just not for new users.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] simms22:
i have an issue with xda letting them post toolkits in the development sections
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] jd1639:
Very good point!
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] md1008:
Imo depends on the phone somethings are really difficult as oems try to make it possible to mod. On some lower end devices the only way I found to root was to use some form of toolkit. Used them on HTC devices not because I don't know how to use fastboot or because I don't know how to go to HTC Dev unlock it's just all in one convenient step. In the past setting up adb was more confusing as the guids were terrible if your a beginner. Thankfully guids are much more easier to understand and its a breeze.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Pain-N-Panic:
When I first wanted to root my nexus I asked about the toolkit. I received instant responses regarding the issues using them with explanations why. I immediately reviewed chromiums guide to rooting our device the "right" way with fastboot and adb. I am grateful for the information a received on that original post after seeing tons of issues on this forum with using toolkits.

I would suggest that one of our more experienced and knowledgeable users here create a sticky on the disadvantages of tool kits and fully explain why good old fastboot and adb is the way to go. I think it might have a positive impact on new comers to this forum who would usually fall back to a toolkit to root their nexus, just as I almost did!!!
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] DREWHAMM974:
My first root was done with a toolkit on my old Xperia X8 and through that I've learned tremendously. Idiots will be idiots but if you don't let those who want to learn get their feet wet without jumping in headfirst many won't even attempt. Plus, that X8 was a difficult device.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] AndrasLOHF:
I don't think they should be banned. I do however think that the majority of toolkit users should be banned from using them.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Technecium:
Toolkits are like chainsaws. Their fast and convenient but sometimes not the best choice. Got to go now. I have a box of toothpicks that needs sharpening.

Sent from AOSP koeMod 4.4.2 w/ Franco kernel
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] kenpen:
Root both my nexus 5 using wug. Why would I want it banned. Best thing that ever happened. I am not an android genius so ....
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Aerowinder:
You don't need a degree to type seven words in a command prompt and flash a file in recovery.

Toolkits are part of the problem, not part of the solution. They encourage laziness.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] 072665995:
I definitely agree with you as well as pretty much everything that's been said. Nexus is very, very easy to root (providing you can follow steps properly). I'm personally against tool kits but it mostly depends on the situation. For example, adb on a Nexus, o god.... Got it to work but a lot more work than I would've wanted to :/ However, it was a good learning experience.

On my old phone, HTC Incredible S, we had to do a downgrade to S-OFF and I can understand a toolkit that automates most of it. I would say that's the one time a tool kit has been mqajorly beneficial because if users manually entered the code in, there'd be a lot of questions :p

But on a device like nexus, why would you need a tool kit. I don't see an issue where the procedure for performin X task is very complicated but when it is downright simple like on a Nexus device, I see it doing a lot more harm than good. I would say ban tool kits in Nexus forums at least :p
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] _jordan_:
Nah, don't ban em. The bricked threads are so much fun to read.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] morphvale:
I think toolkits do more harm than good (no blame intended for the developers).

I used to use a toolkit when I owned the HOX. I had no idea what I (it) was doing, but kept clicking the buttons. Then I started reading the forum, and started understanding what the bootloader is, what the kernel and ROM are, how the fastboot and adb commands work, and many others. I ended up preferring the command prompt, compared to the toolkits.

Long story short, users will always take toolkits for granted and prefer to use them with minimum to no knowledge. While it may or may not be a toolkit problem, issues are always prone to happen, and new stupid topics will show up all the time, as it is easier to start a new topic, rather than search for an already existing topic, or try to understand what the issue actually is.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Melamunna:
I don't agree with the argument that "they should be banned because new users don't educate themselves before using it..." because the same argument would be invalid in almost every other setting. "Guns should be banned entirely because new users don't educate themselves before using them..." or hell, even phones. You get the point. If nothing else, make it a requirement that toolkit threads have in bold letters to READ or WATCH the video before using it. If they choose not to, point and laugh feel bad for them for not reading.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] pepdavies:
I have a Chromebook. You wouldn't believe how long it took me to start it in dev mode, install Ubuntu, install fastboot and flash the factory image on my phone. Loads of hassle and loads of googling along the way to find the answers. But I did it, and when I had problems I soon understood why. I've never used a toolkit, I guess they are great when used correctly but any problems and you're screwed!

Sent from my Nexus 5
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danarama:
That's not a good analogy. A toolkit takes manual steps and automates them, leaving the user not knowing what they've done. A gun is not an automation of manual processes.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Melamunna:
Perhaps it wasn't, but wouldn't you agree that they shouldn't use it if they didn't read, and that if they didn't read- it's their fault?

If you mean the toolkit itself doesn't have a log or explicitly state what IT did, then there is a major problem there- but I don't get the impression that's what's in question here.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] gee2012:
Why ban the tookits?, its mostly the users that create issues. Users should post their questions and issues exclusively in the specific dev`s toolkit thread and not all over the place and the dev should provide info in the OP for when something goes wrong.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danarama:
It is their fault of course, but surely there is a better solution than saying "its your fault".

If a toolkit didn't exist, they'd have to read to get the steps necessary to do the task. And then they do the steps. If they have an idea what they have done, these "skills" help get out of trouble later when something goes wrong. It also minimises the overhead put on the members of this forum when trying to help. We can say "reflash stock" and they have already furnished themselves with the knowledge to do that... or if they need further qualification, we can add "via fastboot". Chances are a new user having used nothing but a toolkit wouldn't understand that.... then we must teach them the information they should already know.

Being rooted should not be seen as a state. It should be seen as a destination at the end of a journey. They must read a map and get to the location themselves, asking directions on the way. They should not star trek teleport there because when the teleporter breaks - they're lost, walking round in circles without a bloody clue where they are or how to get "home".

Similarly, one is not born an adult. They must grow up to become one. We've seen the effects of forcing children to grow up too quick.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Melamunna:
That was an awesome post.

I feel like that while you have some great points, sometimes you can't fix the teleporter, and you'll have to ask for help anyways. Then a simple pointer to a "How to restore back to stock" should suffice.

I want to agree that it makes things unnecessarily easy, and that you aren't teaching them how to fish, but that doesn't mean innovation of current methods shouldn't happen. And if XDA bans toolkits, what's to stop them from googling "Xxxdevice Toolkit" and then installing who knows what to their computer? The toolkit could be specifically designed to permanently ruin a device. At least if they got it here, they wouldn't have to worry about that.

Basically, I feel like you/we/you guys are trying to take on a role that's not necessary. You can't protect people from everything.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danarama:
Lots of truth here. I don't even advocate the banning of them. I've used them myself when having driver issues. Best case would be that they are used as a last resort for everyone imho.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Melamunna:
I completely agree about the last resort part. The only times I've used a toolkit is when I couldn't find a specific driver or something like that. However- if we were to ensure at least one thread had all the resources the toolkit had (but perhaps with links on how to do things manually like you said), maybe that would be closer to the desired solution for all of us.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] :
fastboot/adb and i can do everything... flash kernels, flash recovery, flash factory images ... i don't need nothing more
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Alex240188:
Exactly. It's not much to ask people to learn.

Fastboot flash

Adb push

Knowing these simple commands can solve pretty much every false brick thread we have
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] zelendel:
I would be the first to get rid of tool kits. This will not happen though. Not until the new feeling of android wears off. Then alot of people will go back to their IOS and WP. Then it will get back to the dev minded people that have no use for a tool kit and want to understand just what they are doing.

As far as I am concerned. If someone runs into an issue after using a tool kit they can go back and start from scratch and learn what they are doing first instead of taking the lazy way out.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] El Daddy:
Since the middle of last year I made a decision to not help anyone who got into their situation with a toolkit. Its too difficult to provide troubleshooting help to users that can't perform the steps needed to fix their device.

On the flip side, if one knows how to use adb/fastboot I will take as much time as needed to help fix their problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danarama:
Maybe that's the answer...
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] jd1639:
I take a somewhat opposite view, if I can help someone learn to use fastboot and adb they're going to be a better user. Although, sometimes I'll admit, it can be painful to walk someone through it if they're totally clueless. Usually giving them the links to the good guides many of you have provided is enough to get them started.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] El Daddy:
I used to have your point of view. I just can't do it anymore. Maybe I'm getting old. :)

Sent from my Nexus 5
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] jd1639:
I'm sure I'm older than you, but you might have been at this longer than I. :)
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Anderson2:
I'm a newbie at Android (6 months or so) and here's my take.

Knowing almost nothing about Android when I started I gravitated to the toolkits to root my devices because of the fear of doing something terrible with unfamiliar commands. Unlike the many who found them quick and efficient I invariably had trouble getting the toolkits to install the correct drivers to access the devices from my windows machine so I could start the rooting process. For the three devices I had, it took me days to get through it.

Because of the frustration and wasted time I later (when otas unrooted me) went the sdk route using adb and fastboot commands. What a difference! Everything went smoothly and simply. I now wish toolkits did not exist. Instead of facilitating unlocking and rooting they caused me days of frustration and the anxiety of a newbie afraid of royally screwing things up.

With that personal experience I would support getting rid of toolkits. Not just because of the need to learn - a scary thing for a newbie - but because the direct method was actually faster and simpler for me because of the clear instructions I found.

Unfortunately when a newbie asks for help in rooting he is usually directed to use a toolkit as the simplest way. It might be that for some but certainly not for me.

My 2 cents.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danarama:
I definitely saw that on the S3 forum but many of us redirected those members to manual steps. I see it much less here and most senior members think alike when it comes to toolkits.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] meangreenie:
I reckon people tend to blame tool kits rather than admit they executed something in error.

let's be honest if you can't use a well established toolkit, you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a fastboot command.. holy
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Lekan Adeyeri:
To be honest I used to use toolkits to root, I only used root apps, didn't install Roms etc. I never did anything risky, changing screen density etc. I always knew how to unbrick and factory reset my device. Toolkits help people start out with android modding, now I don't use toolkits, I know exactly what, what the commands do and mean, I could easily fix my own problems, and help others. I really think they are helpful for newbies starting out with modding, when I wanted to do more I learned more. Some people just want root, and I think it should be easy for them to just get root.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] zelendel:
While it maybe easy to root. It has risks. Root is a huge security hole in its self

Bat cave One
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Anderson2:
Hey "mean"greenie, It's the drivers these toolkits install that are a problem. Windows 7 keeps getting in the way. Once the toolkit finally installs a driver that actually lets you access the device, everything else is easy. If you look through the toolkit support threads you will see all the users who had trouble getting the toolkit installed drivers to work. Using sdk made the driver issue go away. (same user) Once you can access the Android device from a windows PC, unlocking and rooting is a breeze.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] wim69:
I have some experience with ADB but still I use WUG sometimes. It automates my nandroid backup. But I did not use it to root my Nexus...

And I used it to get my drivers right.

I am not in favor of banning rootkits, but they should be used only when the user can perform the actions themselves.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] md1008:
The same users who brick their phones using toolkits are the same people that would brick their phones with having to much superuser freedom.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Lekan Adeyeri:
Then they factory restore it, I almost never brick my device using super user apps. It's not super hard to factory restore.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] chaco81:
simple

toolkits banned? NO

idiots banned? H3ll yes!

toolkits downloads should be prompted after passing a quiz.. if the idiot cant 100% the toolkit quiz, dont let them download it
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Beauenheim:
Toolkits for a nexus are ridiculous.

For HTC phones at least, or devices with locked bootloaders they can be helpful.

S-Off on the DesireHD was literally the hardest thing I've ever done on android with Ace losing support and the download gone.

I kind of wish it was there but it took me 12 hours to S-Off that device.

Still, for a Nexus, there literally is no need.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] zas0006:
I agree 100%. I think there should be a quiz or something baked in that will not allow them to use the toolkit unless they can pass it.
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] mistahseller:
I am guilty of using a toolkit to restore my nexus 4 to completely stock, relocking the bootloader, etc
[Nexus 5 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] pwrmedia:
No.

I fail to see the logic in hindering a developer/contributor's assistance to the community due to the ignorance (be it blatant or inadvertent) of the end user.

The focus, as so many others have mentioned, needs to be on education. Granted XDA's search feature can be wonky @ times, there is NO excuse why users can't execute most other inquiries via Google. Adding an "xda" to the end of their questions will more often than not lead them to 1 or more links that will provide the answer they are looking for. Unfortunately, more often than not, we choose to clutter development threads by bashing the end user instead of offering assistance. 10 page threads are filled with 6 pages of "READ THE OP", "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE", and responses of the like. It's unproductive, and ultimately serves no purpose other than to aggravate the participants in such threads.

There is no solid solution to finally solve this problem, but I can say with confidence that banning toolkits would do nothing more than disillusion developers (beginner AND expert) from future contributions to XDA. That prospect alone is far worse than the annoyances of an ignorant end user.