yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Xperia Z1 General] One Twelve:
How much better ?

I can say the auto will get better. But if you can operate the camera competently in manual mode, i expect improvement to be minor. Which when taken in total give a better picture than earlier fw.

The video section is actually what brings the Z1 up compared to the competition.

If you go by DXO's ranking the Z1 beats every other camera phone out there when it comes to video.

When it comes to still camera its 5th. What is the difference between Z1and first place ? 4 points (!)

What is the difference between Z1 with s4 & 1020 ? 2 points

What is the difference between Z1 with 5s ? 1 point

To lose by 2 points isn't a lot. That's less than 5% difference. DxO has not reviewed note 3 or G2 yet so that ranking isn't complete yet for the current generation of flagships.

These points are awarded on the basis of 7 parameters for photo and 7 again for video. So total of 14 parameters in different lighting conditions, 400 photos & 20 videos analysed to produce those results in lab conditions.

Rank of Z1 is number 2 in over all ranking.

Rank of Z is number 15 in over all ranking.

In 6 months they made a product that jumped over 10 places. Nobody that works for Z1 is going to get fired any time soon.

What they promised you was the best

overall

camera. They've delivered on that.

Those phones use sensors that are optimised for good light. Start to decrease the light and they won't be able to deliver. They are not good overall cameras.

I don't know how great & expensive this Z1 sensor is. I've had troubles locating the specs for this sensor. It seems to be a custom one made just for the Z1. The IMX135 which is in the s4 goes for $15. The one in the Z costs twice as much to replace. The Z1 camera is not available yet to don't know how much it costs.

I don't know why the bezels are this large, i hope they are testing out the form factor so the Z2 will have speakers in there like the HTC one.

Anyone seen a disassembly video of the Z1 yet. is the camera sensor that big ?

Half its potential ?

Heavy phone is because they used a metal trim. Going by the reasons people give for getting Z1, build quality seems to be the most popular.

Display i agree. Battery is because of tweaks G2 has used. Camera is slightly better in good light and not as good in low light.

LG, Samsung & Apple release mature camera firmware. Sony does not. Does not mean Sony never will.
[Xperia Z1 General] neilmc1983:
Its not the best image, but this is the sensor in the Z1, I see the break down video and it did look big.
[Xperia Z1 General] S@LEM:
the problem with Sony is that they try very hard not to overcome/interfere some of their tech product by others', they truly can beat the **** out of the computation by using their full potential but then it will dramatically effect the appealing of their other department sells which count as a main pillar of the company (such camera)

they always have to compromise with what they have got, make some sort of level and priority between each and every department, they used to not take the mobile dept. very seriously and look at it as some sort of a gate to bring more consumer to their real deal, until now they start to warming up and spend a lot effort on it and yes its still not enough. while the others "the competitors" have really nothing to lose they always push the boundaries further and do better to stay alive among the market, its a matter of live or die for them and so from that the evolution began from the little simple stuff!
[Xperia Z1 General] Gitaroo:
I think it might also have something to do with their cybershot department only care about meeting the JP market schedule, since Z1 and Z1f isnt coming out until later.
[Xperia Z1 General] Geoffxx:
the only thing I see wrong in the Z1 20mp shot is very slight motion blur

since the last FW update the 20mp shots improved beyond the 8mp manual and Auto - before the auto and 8mp were better, I shoot nearly all my pictures in 20mp mode now, I believe there is still room for improvement but not much
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
2 points isn't a lot but why does it lose? Why is it even equal to others? Larger senzor, bionz processor, g lens and all that, I do believe that there is a decent difference between this sensor and the one in SGS4 for example. As you said, Sony jumped 10 places from Z so the Z1's sensor must be a lot better. Then why the Z1 isn't 10 places in front of SGS4 (with the same sensor from Z) and at least 5 in front of G2? Comparing Z1's sensor and for example SGS4 sensor is like comparing Snapdragon 800 chipset with Snapdragon 600. Now imagine the situation that a phone with S600 gets 2 points better in benchmark tests than a phone with S800. Would be that normal? No.

But if it's true that Z1 beats all others in taking photos on low light, then Z1 is better and al those benchmarks are a piece of crap. A benchmark should test overall results, not in ideal light conditions.

Bezels are large probably because of sensor and big battery and waterproofness. The phone is very thin so the metal frame + big sensor + big battery + waterproof protection can't fit so easy in it. And talking about build quality, I really want to believe that it is, but I just can't. Those glasses looks like they would crack the first time my phone falls from 1m or more height. The second fact that freaks me out is the GSM Arena drop test, where the phone just died. You can't even imagine what torture my X10i has passed during 3 years of having it. Falling from 2 m heights, I dropped it at least a few hundred times, when I was angry and mad about it slowness I smashed it a few times into table, into wall or floor, I spilled wine, beer, coffee and a lot other liquids on it, I sat down on it a few times etc etc. It survived all this without even a scratch. That's a built quality! But I don't have a feeling that Z1 will survive all this and I'm really scared because I'm a very clumsy person and I'll sure drop it a lot. And when we're out having fun, I'm always in charge of playing music and I usually got drunk like hell so again my poor phone gots spilled with different liquids or even dropped. Fortunately, it's waterproof :good: That's one of the best features ever. Because the last time I spilled a lot of wine on my X10, it starts having problems. Random reboots, freezes, and battery draining as well as problems with my headphone jack. (I should consider buying CAT B15 phone instead of Z1 :P)

True. But when Sony plans to use those tweaks too? Battery lasting is one of the most important features. Again, if they don't want more than 6 hours of browsing, with great software they could reach those 6 hours with much smaller battery. And the phone would be probably smaller and lighter. My X10 with stock GB wouldn't last from morning till evening with 3G on. That was a big fail and shame for Sony Ericsson. I was so dissapointed and angry when upgraded to GB. Fortunately, there is always XDA community :good: With custom kernel and ROM, it lasted 2-3 days with 3G on if I didn't use it a lot.
[Xperia Z1 General] neilmc1983:
Hmmm... From my experience the Z1's battery last MUCH longer than the G2.

I think it has something to do with all the bloatware the G2 has, I'm usually running with 2-300mb free RAM

I need to install root uninstaller and delete the bloatware
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
That's a great news! I should stop believing those ridiculous reviews. Because they said that G2 can take more than 10 hours of web browsing while Z1 only 6.

300 MB of RAM !?? Whaaaaaaaaaat? On a 2 GB phone? I got 130 MB free RAM on my X10 which has only 384 MB. I would expect from a phone with 2 GB at least 1.2 - 1.5 GB free while not playing game or listening to music.
[Xperia Z1 General] gm007:
No way the z1 can bypass the g2's battery,this is stock rom without root

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=46423711
[Xperia Z1 General] finoqq84:
I think ppl should STOP commenting the Z1 on how bad the camera is, how bad the battery ect... Its just like comparing the orange is sweeter then the Grapefruit.. But some ppl likes the taste of grapefruit more then the orange!

This is a forum for US who LOVES our Z1. So, if ppl would like to say that G2 or S4 is better, PLEASE post it on the XDA forum for G2 or S4.
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
Who told you that we don't love our Z1 ? As I said a few times already, we just think that Z1 could be better. When it was introduced, we was amazed by its hardware and we expected a lot. But Sony managed again to do a lot of software related omissions and we didn't get what we've expected from this hardware. I agree that some things are a matter of taste (like design, screen, sound quality or some other things) but battery isn't a matter of taste. Every single owner of Z1 would like to get more from that battery. If other phones with same chipset, display size and same android version and same battery can get more, Z1 can get more as well ;)

I wouldn't buy my Z1 if I didn't love it and like it more than any other phone. But the fact that another phone with the same hardware (except display technology) has far more better results is just disturbing. Maybe Sony didn't expected that LG would do such a great job, but now when they saw it, I do really hope that for 4.3 or 4.4 they will do much better job and push the boundaries for battery/camera much further.
[Xperia Z1 General] neilmc1983:
lol i just said my Z1 has better battery life and less bloatware. The OS runs so much smoother than the G2 :good:
[Xperia Z1 General] motiv999:
I've found that the auto mode is awful, don't know what it is but it just can't take good pictures.

Manual mode is exceptional, especially with a low ISO number.

If you want to take quick snaps, the camera does it's job ok, night pictures are very good, strong light blurry. Manual mode you can get great pics all the time in the day, as long as you can keep steady.
[Xperia Z1 General] One Twelve:
Sony marketing outvoted Z1 engineering when it came to launch date. Less time to develop = less mature at launch

I was sceptical Z1would launch a mere 6 months after the Z. Nobody releases a follow up in just 6 months. Usually its a year.

Where do you get this figures ?

Why should Z1 be 10 places ahead of SGS4 or at least 5 in front of G2 ? (we don't know what G2's rank is btw, until DxO reviews it)

Would you care if Z1 was ahead of SGS4 by 1 point ? despite auto not being mature.

Apples and oranges, Not equivalent. That the Z1 jumped 10 places is indicative of an improvement. Thing is you do not see it. So you need to understand how Z1 beat the Z. Video gave a boost from 15th place to 2nd. That's why the overall score jumped. First place in video goes to gopro hero, which is not a phone.

Presently the Z still beats the Z1 in terms of photo artifacts, there are less photo artifacts in Z (3rd place) than Z1 (10th place) presently. This means tweaks required here for future Z1 fw. Should be doable as its software.

Texture is another area that Z1 needs to improve. The S4 (4th place) is ahead by 10 points compared to Z1 (9th place). So if you compare photos between these two the S4 will look sharper. This is what most people look at and conclude that the S4 is better. For them it takes just one parameter to say Z1 is not a good camera.

This is a subjective thing. I notice some reviewers do not even bother with low light because they assume people do not need it. See this

post

of mine. Notice how the S4 does better in good light. Even beats the 1020. Its sensor is optimised for that. if you want a jack of all trades there are tradeoffs associated. You can see the 1020 is only little bit better here than the Z1. That is quite an achievement for the Z1. I never expected Z1 to be compared to 1020, more like with 925 but it actually beats 920/925 already.

The funny thing is Sony does not charge a premium for this water resistance. It's kinda of a free bonus. Personally i find it makes maintenance a little bit harder as a press is required to replace the battery. Not a biggie if the service center has one. But non-service centre will not have this press so they won't be able to seal the phone tightly enough.

I don't know how much room is there to tweak the screen or not. Presently it does quite well in outdoors visbility. I think the nature of the screen Sony chose implies more power to achieve similar brightness as the G2 screen. This means a default G2 win beause of more efficient screen tech. Because if you look at talk time, the Z1 beats the G2 by a slight bit. The screen is what knocks the Z1 down in web browsing or video playback time.

Z1 mini uses a screen tech that is more like G2, so i expect that is what the Z2 will most probably have as well.
[Xperia Z1 General] wezzel98765:
Some low light Z1 pics here

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=47447821&postcount=706
[Xperia Z1 General] neilmc1983:
When the Z1 mini / Z1s is released, it will have a more mature FW and end up taking better images than the Z1?

Where did you find the info about teh Z1 mini's screen? i truely hope it's not just a smaller version of the Z1's screen.
[Xperia Z1 General] One Twelve:
Z1 mini has a 4.3 inch screen. Somebody posted a video here some time back and swiveled the screen around which showed the colours did not fade. So its using a different screen.

Can't say whether its camera will be better or not, but its using the same camera.

The Z1 mini is a proper mini (similar hardware specs to the Z1 but smaller screen size) unlike crippled mini's offered by other companies.

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

Its because the manual Z1 shot has a slow shutter speed of 1/8, the G2 is slightly faster speed of 1/15

If you look at the S4 shot, its got the same shutter speed as the G2 1/15 but its noticeably blurred.

So you've got camera shake here both with the Z1 manual & S4. It's just that you got lucky with the G2. Don't expect to pull it off every time.

Ideally you don't want to drop below 1/30s with either of these cameras if you're hand holding.

Theory goes that 1/focal length is the minimum shutter speed you can use to avoid camera shake.

focal length of these cameras is in the 4mm ish range. To get the true focal length you have to multiply it with the crop factor. In the case of the s4 that's about 7.x giving you a true focal length somewhere around 28-30mm. So minimum shutter speed to avoid camera shake is 1/28-1/30. I expect G2 might be similar or may have a smaller crop factor given it has OIS, in which case you might get away with 1/15. I don't know as yet what the crop factor of the Z1 is, whether its similar to S4 or not. The 1020 has a 3.5 crop factor so you can pull off a 1/15 with a 1020 and still avoid camera shake. But if you use stabilisation with Z1 you will need a still faster shutter speed.

mm, try with a tripod. otherwise rest your hands on the backrest of another chair and take the shot if you want to go slower than 1/30s
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
I forgot to ask, and now I see that you're talking about camera shake. How much is Z1 sensitive to hands shaking? I have a really shaky hands and sometimes I had a hard time to take a clear photo with my X10. I hope that Z1 is better?
[Xperia Z1 General] wezzel98765:
In my opinion, the Z1 is very very sensitive. Once the magic man above works out the shutter speed we need to use with,shake hands that will help. I always try and take pictures leaning on something now.

Check out my latest low light pictures on the main camera thread .
[Xperia Z1 General] One Twelve:
Yeah the camera shake thing is another hassle to deal with indoors. I think 1/30 or above is good. Thing is how do you get that speed. There is no way to set it.

I notice if you can add some light, say torch mode, then the shutter speed gets boosted. Otherwise only a high ISO will do it and we don't want that.

If you can stabilise the camera or hold it very still then you can get away with slower shutter speed. Its difficult though. At first glance a shot might look ok, but zoom in and you will notice slight blur like in neil's photos and it won't be pin sharp.

According to anandtech, S4, G2 & Note 3 all use the same sensor that is the Sony IMX135. 1/30 is the minum speed with those. The OIS in G2 might allow 1/15 but not with S4 or note 3.
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
To assume things: very sensitive to shaking hands, bad auto mode. The camera sounds like unusable for my needs. I take a lot indoor shoots, and I want it to be fast to capture some great moments which will get away if I have to use manual mode and adjust the camera. And I have a very shaky hands.
[Xperia Z1 General] One Twelve:
For indoors use flash, stick some thin white paper over the flash to diffuse it so it does not blow the subject away. Try it.

Note the shutter speed in the exif with and without flash. I think it should be high enough (faster than 1/32) in this case as there will be ambient light not to be bothered by camera shake with low ISO.

Then you have to worry about getting focus fast enough before your moment disappears. For that you must antcipate it.

Are you using stabilisation with still camera ? Try with it off.
[Xperia Z1 General] omnius1:
Not sure if any of you have tried this yet but until Sony releases a patch to make the Superior Auto mode nicer, I've had some pretty good results touching up photos using the Pixlr Express app to improve quality
[Xperia Z1 General] Safar_Ibrahim:
I was super pissed with the picture quality, sold my Z1 for half of the price i bought for and bought Note 3.

I'm happy with Note 3 picture quality , it takes far more better with less noise compare to Z1.
[Xperia Z1 General] katamari201:
Apparently no one can make a good auto mode except for Apple. The camera is always great no matter what situation and device, from ipad to iphone, bright sunshine or pitch black. The range of error is much smaller and most shots come out well. And its lightning fast. It cant compete if you compare the very best shots from each phone, as its only 8mp, but I'd take great and reliable on most shots over bipolar schizo cameras. But sadly apple doesn't seem to want to put their expertise into something grander then a camera that fits into a small 7mm iphone.

The closest thing on android seems to be samsungs cameras. Lg has awful and slow autofocus and doesn't utilize the ois well. The video capture with the pulsating schizo focus is the perfect example, which lg has had on previous phones, so its foolish to expect a magical update to fix such a longstanding problem. Same with sony, which their auto wasn't great before, with many complaints of bad pegs and algorithms. The z1 has the crunchiest noise around even in daylight, and night shots are very dark, grainy, and blurry. Htc of course, can't compete on resolution. Moto is middling.

And people who keep on saying go to nokia if you want a good camera are ignorant of the issues with those phones as well. The highest non-lumia 1020 phone available uses only 8mp and its not very sharp, even for an 8mp. The saving grace is the bright night shots because of the stellar ois, but otherwise the photos arent that spectacular. The 1020 in particular has a terrible auto mode that always screws up white balance and has issues with focus and exposure as well. Since it takes ages to snap one pic, compensating with multiple tries is a pain. You are of course suppose to use the manual controls, but nokia is marketing it as a point and shoot to the everyday man with their commercials, so it better function properly if you point and shoot.

This year was suppose to be a big year for cameras, but it ain't panning out at all, with disappointment after disappointment. I've abstained from buying anything new since, really, my phone from last year is fast enough, and the screen nice looking and pixel dense enough. The camera is the only other thing i really want a big step up from. The tech and know how is there. It's just no one has managed to put it all together in one phone. Think lumia 1020 camera with iphone speed and auto with android versatility.

I guess I'll be waiting for next years crop. The isocell from samsung sounds interesting, and it might be coming soon if the rumors are true.
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
So, according to your words, Lumia 1020 is even worse from my point of view. I'm pretty sure that a person who knows how to use manual mode will create 10 times better picture with either Z1 or 1020 than any iPhone. But I think that Nokia and Sony missed the main point, and it seems that only Apple understood the point right and done the right thing; these are phones, not cameras. They're not for a professional use, their camera is for an average daily use and for an average user; it must be fast and easy to operate. If I would like to go somewhere to take some great shots, I will borrow my brother's DSLR for this. But my Z1 is always in my pocket so if I saw something unexpectedly, I want to be able to take a picture of that by simply opening the camera and pressing the shoot button. Only Apple realized that the camera must be easy to operate and fast and thus improved the auto-mode reaching the maximum quality it can get. Nokia and Sony are failing here, and missing the point of phone's camera.

Of course, with that sensor, it would be a pitty not to include manual mode for those users who know how to use it. So manual + auto mode is an ideal combination, but Sony should first improve the auto mode to the maximum.
[Xperia Z1 General] nizarnoor:
I agree. Apple has done such a great job at that. Since it's just a camera in a phone, people should be able to get the best image quality with minimal settings/configuration. Sony's Superior Auto is more like an Inferior Auto it's frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater. In fact I own both Z and Z1 (will be selling my Z after I finished with all my backup though). I just really wish that Sony would be a lot better at this.
[Xperia Z1 General] omnius1:
Much ado about nothing I think. Is the camera good enough for a smartphone? Yes. Is it as good as it should be for a 20mp shooter by Sony? No. Is the Xperia Z1 a fantastic phone despite that? Absolutely. I'm not criticizing people pointing out that that the camera should perform better, just the level of obsession some people harbor over it, bordering on neurotic in some cases. It's not like the phone is actually defective. It's not like the camera is horrible. If people were dropping calls, losing data signal, had defective speakers, messed up touch screen or some other similar sort of thing I could understand, but some peeps are tad over the top.
[Xperia Z1 General] xplod2841:
Dudes, relax. Having a little critics can be only positive. I said hundred times and I'll say again; we love our Z1, it is the best phone out there (at least for me, I like it more than G2 and S4 and I would NEVER buy and Apple device or WP phone). But if something has the room for improvements, it's sometimes good to complain a little bit. Maybe it will be fixed. Sony won't lose it's time or money to fix the auto mode or do some improvements if the users are satisfied with the current one. They would rather work on a new device. We, end users, must show that we would appreciate a little bit of improvement through complaining. Sony will hear us, don't worry. I remember with X10 when Sony said that 2.1 would be the last android for it. We were so angry and pissed off that we started complaining agressively and loudly. Sony heard us and after all that complains, they created 2.3. But if we didn't complain about it, they would never release it.

Btw. finally got my Z1, it's so beautiful! It's 100 times more beautiful than on the pictures. Definitely the most beautiful phone out there.
[Xperia Z1 General] One Twelve:
I'm all for critics & critical thinking. Just wish more people would hit the target :laugh:

You want an easy shot. Does anybody think the panorama in Z1 is not good.

Can anybody compare with the Panorama shot of S4 or note 3 ? apple might be the closest but nobody in android space can do it. googlesphere is a substititue in nexus.

So there has to be a 3rd party app that can do this. Anybody know of one.