yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows 8 General] filfat:
Alright, alot of people are going to hate me for this one. But Vista aint that bad, sure it required WAY better hardware then we had back then and it wasn't optimized enough, however it was the best looking back then, and thanks to that we got a better windows some years latter, Windows 7. Which was built upon the kernel of XP and UI of Vista.

Now back to the Windows 8 rant.

Sure, I have used the Start button a long time, and if they took it away without giving something better I would have been quite angry, however they replaced it with something much better, something were used to from Windows Phone and Xbox, the Modern UI Start screen. And I don't see why the old start menu would be better.

Ex.

Open app in old start menu: Click on "All Applications" -> Look after <AppName> -> Figure out the shortcut name -> click on the shortcut.

Open app in New start menu: Type the 3-4 first letter in the app name -> Select the app.

Quite an improvement just there.

And that is just opening an Application that's not even talking about the live tiles, or the even easier to use API for Windows 8.

And to the Windows 9 thingy:

I honestly don't care what they name it, as long as they don't get rid of the Modern UI, NOR the bing search function in 8.1.

And I would love if they added Possibility to run unsigned desktop apps on Windows RT. ;)
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Um... your bit about "kernel of XP and UI of Vista" is completely off-base. You may be confused by the partial abandonment of Longhorn, the Windows version codename that was to become Vista and which was too ambitious, so much of the work on it was abandoned and a more realistic Windows core - what originally become NT 6.0 (Vista) - was built from the NT 5.2 (XP x64 / Server 2003) core.

From there to Win7 (NT 6.1) was mostly a matter of improving on NT 6.0. They definitely did *not* go back to the 5.x family again! Win7 has about the same support for XP drivers and programs that Vista did (Win8, NT 6.2, removed some more of the legacy 5.x driver support).

The change to "Start is basically an avenue to Search, an if you do otherwise you're wasting time" came with Vista, by the way, not with Win8 the way you seem to sort of be implying. It's actually the #1 thing I detest about XP from a usability perspective; I've been hitting the WinKey and typing a few letters, then hitting Enter, for almost 8 years (counting Vista betas) now. XP's Start menu feels like using stone knives and bearskins... With that said, this is actually one of the things I hate about Win8, because they <REDACTED> up the Start search by making it only show one of "Apps", "Settings", or "Files" at a time, when previously they were all in the same view just with simple dividers. Win 8.1 fixed this atrocity of usability. Even so, I don't find the Win8 Start screen to be that much of a problem, since *much* of the time I can use it just like I could Vista and Win7...
[Windows 8 General] filfat:
What I meant was the stability not the ACTUALL kernel ;)

Sorry if that was unclear.

And I agree with the most you say.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
Even with the categorisation of settings/files/apps I do prefer the windows 8 search simply because it is so much faster and unlike the vista and 7 search actually gives results...

I needed to open the calculator quickly, on laptop or my desktop both of which are windows 8 I just hit the windows key and type ca and it already lists libre office calc and calculator immediately, done. Uni machines are on windows 7 and returned 200 results for ca, 0 for calc and 0 for calculator, and they took about 45 seconds to come to that conclusion for each search. Search for "mine", I have to switch to file view to locate minecraft.exe but thats still damn quicker than waiting for winddows 7 startbar to return a big fat nothing for "minecraft.exe" or "mine". I have never once located a file I was after with the windows 7 search faster than just digging into the file browser myself.
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Try using a non-crippled-by-braindead-admins install of Vista or Win7, then. I've been using one NT6 version or another since early 2006 (MSDN AA got me pre-public Vista betas, back when it was still mostly branded Longhorn). Neither Search nor system stability have changed detectably between those versions. Forcibly installing pre-release or incompatible drivers can cause bugchecks (BSODs) on any NT version, but I had no stability problems on Vista that weren't directly attributable to that, and I ran it since before most people had ever heard of it. Most of the supposed "improvement" in Win7 was simply that more people had up-to-date drivers out by then (even OEMs frequently included incompatible drivers on their stock system images; I was shocked the first time I looked at Device Manager on a Vista OEM image). Getting back to Search, though...

Considering that the search code is damn near identical (you can check it, if you like, diff the files System32\SearchIndexer.exe, SearchProtocolHost.exe, and SearchFilterHost.exe between versions) the only possible conclusions I can come to for 6677's experience is that either the indexer service is completely disabled on those machines (a lot of people stupidly did this, usually after reading a guide written by some stupid people online who claimed it would "speed up" the system... despite the fact that the actual search host processes have Low priority and thus won't interfere with normal operation), or that they removed the Start Menu and a number of other default locations from the index (see Indexing Options, which on my Win7 machine I can launch by hitting WinKey, typing "ind", and hitting Enter, in far under a second...)

Trust me, your experiences with regard to search on Win7 are purely a case of PEBAKAC (Problem Exists Between Administrator's Keyboard And Chair). The only meaningful changes to Search that were made in Vista -> Win7 -> Win8 -> Win8.1 was the boneheaded UI changes in Win8 and the fix to them in 8.1. It's one of the best usability features of NT 6.x, and seeing people turn it off or otherwise cripple it, and then say that it doesn't work or that there's no advantage over XP, makes me want to take away those people's Admin access until they learn how to operate a computer...
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
Actually I have duplicated this issue across the following:

Old school computers

University computers

My old laptop running windows vista with default settings.

My old laptop running a fresh windows 7 install before I even attempted to tweak any system settings.

My old laptop running another fresh windows 7 install having suffered a hard disk failure.

My old desktop running a fresh windows 7 install having just wiped XP.

My current desktop running a fresh windows 7 install

My current desktop post hard disk upgrade (since replaced with windows 8)

Brothers netbook on windows 7

Sisters netbook on windows 7

Stepfathers netbook on windows 7.

Mothers vista laptop.

Mothers laptop after a fresh windows 7 install.

Between keyboard and chair my arse.
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
EDIT: I've always run EN-US installations, standard editions (not N or whatever variants). Same for you? I'm honestly out of ideas as to what the difference could be.

,,, would you like me to send you a video? I'd like to believe you, but Occam's Razor suggests that, much though I hate to say it, you're full of <REDACTED>. Unless you literally tried so soon after installation (given the need for post-setup driver installation this *might* be as much as a few minutes) that the search indexer hasn't had an opportunity to run, I flat-out do not believe you. Your claim flies in the face of at least seven Vista installations counting betas/RCs (across four machines that I own or owned, one of which couldn't even run Aero) and five Win7 ones (again counting pre-release, two machines I own), nine work computers (including the one I'm typing this on and the test machine sitting next to it, which I haven't tweaked at all) across %DEITY%-only-knows how many installations of Win7 (counting test machines as well as dev boxes, but not VMs except in the installations count), my parents' three Win7 machines (one of which is a netbook running Starter, of all things), my roommate's one Vista and two Win7 installations, my sister's Vista machine, my university's Win7 CS lab machines (unknown number used but they'd all be running the same image), and co-workers, friends' and so on than I can count. Exactly one exhibited the behavior you describe, and it was because the search indexer had been turned off.

The ones I use most often are "prox" (Configure Proxy Server), "dep" (Application Deployment), "not" (Notepad or Notepad++, sometimes Sticky Notes on a brand-new installation before I train it to use the others), "vis" (Visual Studio), "wor" (Word, although on a new machine it might be Wordpad instead), "oper" (Opera, to be sure I get it instead of OpenVPN), "xm" (Xming), "sky" (Skype), "eve" (Eve Online), "civ" (Civilization V), "fro" (Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, back when that's how you played DotA), etc, but it works with obscure ones too. "fox" just launched Foxit Reader, a program I've never before invoked directly from Start. This is all on my work Win7 Enterprise machine. (it's lunch time where I am right now, if you're wondering...)

Seriously, I use the feature many times as often as I actually open things from Start the "usual" way. I *notice* when it doesn't work. You don't even need to wait for the menu to finish appearing (my older Vista machines I would often complete this before the fade-in animation finished) much less for the search results to show up; just hit Enter and trust. It also works for file names; "appwiz.cpl" launches the same thing on Vista, Win7, etc. whether it's called "Programs and Features" or "Add or Remove Programs" (which does the same thing but is missing on Vista). Many people probably use it for "cmd" and "regedit"; it's faster than hitting Win+R when you can just hit Win...
[Windows 8 General] FloatingFatMan:
It's PEBKAC, actually. ;) "Administrator" is rather spurious!

Personally, I've always preferred the IBM engineering manual error code. ID-10-T (Eye dee ten tee ;) )
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
I for one, never experienced any problems with search, aside from a quick search i did right after a clean install on a system, which is obviously caused by the indexer not getting the chance to run yet...

The biggest advantage the windows 8 start screen has over all its predecessor start menus is the fact that you can pin many more programs to it. For a mouse user, this is invaluable. And once one gets used with the layout, search-launch actually becomes slower than simply clicking the item.

I think most people fail to see this because they think only metro apps can be pinned to start....

And the other thing people QQ about, just like my brother, is the inability to right click "my computer" (my computer is missing by default from the desktop) and find some of the administrative tools hidden in the properties dialog, which is kinda funny considering windows 8 not only gives you direct access to some of the items in that menu by using the windows + x shortcut (which can also be accessed by right clicking the start button), but one can also find the exact same menus under the control panel.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
So usability is still a debated point on Windows 8.

I still think that too much is hidden in menus and shortcuts for the average PC user. We can't expect everyone to be as experienced or comfortable with computers.

One of the first thoughts in my mind when I installed the Win8 consumer preview was, how difficult it was going to be for the average PC user to figure things out. This was before the minor 'help' feature added one year later in 8.1.

The first video I seen illustrating the point was this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4

OK, the computer user is older and less likely to be as comfortable a computer user as someone much younger, yet, people around me buying notebooks are having the same reactions. Of the people that I've shown that video to, no one had yet laughed at the user trying to learn Windows 8 yet. They all laughed/were confused why a $77 billion dollar company that is fluent in this business thought that this would work. People ask me 'why did they put a smartphone OS on the computer'? Hidden menus, charms, right clicking a previously hidden button, people don't want to play Cluedo with their computers they want to use them and get on with things.

I like taking a look at things from 'light user' perspectives sometimes because it shows me when I'm trying to fix something that should have been left behind. I think many more 'experienced users' are too comfortable trying to resolve issues in computers, we have to recognise when a situation is simply: square object, round hole.

Not just confined to 'light computer users': A systems administrator tries Windows 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4VtNLl6Ca4

If you do like checking out these videos, I spotted this one recently and it's worth a look for the reactions, the mother is very straight-talking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ujmDrcKWo8
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
For a complete newb to computers, windows 8 is much more intuitive than windows 7.

Important settings and administrative tools are no longer hidden in several levels deep manus, and I like this.

It will take time for people to adapt, but windows 8 has, in most ways, an obvious increase in usability over windows 7. It still requires some twinkling, but I would take W8 over W7 any day.

You can't have progress without breaking away from old concepts...it is like complaining we use processors instead of analogical circuits.
[Windows 8 General] mattman86:
What it all comes down to is the fact that people in general hate change.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Samsung is now rumoured as aiming to cease offering Windows notebooks and instead offer Chromebooks.

http://www.winbeta.org/news/rumor-samsung-getting-out-windows-notebook-business-favor-chromebooks

Personally, I'd trust a Microsoft-based platform for it's privacy policy ahead of Google any day so I'm not keen on a Google world. If this is true though, the situation is getting worse for Microsoft. Windows 8 really does seem to be the version that drove people away. When this happened with Vista, there wasn't the cheap, easy Android/Chromebook alternative.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
Are you seriously implying chromebooks will sell better than a windows machine? Do you even know what a chromebook is and what it does? They cost the same price as a low end windows machine and is just several times more crippled.

Seriously, stop believing all the crap people say out on the internet.

Despite all your doom sayers, Microsoft had a huge income this last year, its cloud computing solutions are used by more and more companies, its tablet segment had a huge sales increase in the last quarter and windows phone is quickly gaining ground in Europe, while both the ihpone and google android are going down.
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
Despite what some fanbois and Microsoft's viral marketers are going to say, their mobile movement so far has been a complete disaster. The new CEO already has his work cut out for him. That's why I think giving the job to Bill Gates would be smart, he can make all these stupid suits shut up and refocus the priorities.

Windows next or whatever the name is, needs to be a slamdunk, not some half tablet half desktop os thing.

The funny thing people, manufacturers have warned Ms about this months before the release but Sinofski and Ballmer were just to arrogant to admit mistakes and now they are seeing and getting the results
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
I couldn't agree more. MS said it was the largest (the Consumer P) test of a software before full release, ever. And they ignored what feedback they received.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Has anyone else tried Update 1? I have to say that against my expectations, the few additions really seem to make things easier to use.
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
>Has anyone else tried Update 1?

RTM is supposed to hit next month. I won't bother with a beta, especially one that has no benefits for desktop use. Making Metro more palatable is a moot point when there is no Metro productivity tools to speak of. MS is trying to fix the wheel on the Metro cart, but it ain't got no horse.

>I have to say that against my expectations, the few additions really seem to make things easier to use.

Funny you said that, as the coterie of Metro fans are unhappy with Upd.1's changes. Something about desktop peanut butter in Metro's chocolate. Now they know how the rest of the 1bil+ Win users feel about having Metro bolted onto the "legacy" Windows. Yeah, I always wanted to have blinking multicolored blocks on my desktop.

Making Metro more mouse-friendly is a long shot gambit, but MS has few options in trying to stretch 8.1 to last for all of this year and part of next. No surprise then that it's bowing to reality and has extended Win7's retail sales as well. At this point it's safe to say that 8.x is a done deal, and Win9 will be the "next best hope." Hope springs eternal, as they say.

Should be interesting to see how MS spinmeisters work the troops at Build. I'm sure new CEO guy will be trotted out for some pep talk. Let's hope he brings along some pixie dust. Or, maybe he can do a Ballmer's impersonation with Monkey Dance Update 1.
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Given the fact that Update 1's changes are mostly specific to mouse-users, I think they're actually pretty solid. Everything I saw in the reviews I've read so far makes it appear to be a strictly better experience for mouse users, in terms both of muscle memory compatibility and of mouse movement distance. I can see the argument against "changing it *AGAIN*!" but unless they also changed things for touch users, it's hard to imagine people considering the new experience to be a downgrade. Then again, I'm not the best judge of what the average computer user will say.

Disclaimer, though: I have limited experience with 8.1, because it is enough of a regression in capabilities that I consider critical that I have not yet updated any device that I own (for the record: SUA on my desktop and my old-school clamshell stylus-not-touch tablet, jailbreak on my Surface RT). The only 8.1 RTM feature that I really miss is the un-bungling of Start search (whoever decided to take the result categories and segregate them behind additional clicks - even when the default category "apps" has no results - deserves to be ejected from the company by forceful application of clue-by-four to the back of the head). There are probably more improvements that I would get used to in time, although my brief experience of trying to use 8.1 mostly led me to conclude that MS had gone and changed things around (for mouse or touch) but without notable improvements... except it was mostly in Metro, so I didn't give a <REDACTED>.

Still... this is the first time in 8 years, since very early pre-release Vista, that I've not even had a multi-boot system running bleeding-edge Windows. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and get used to the limitations and eccentricities of Cygwin (much as I did with Interix, which has plenty of its own)... I'll need to eventually anyhow (especially since most Interix-related resources have been shut down).
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
A worthwhile benefit in Upd 1 is the smaller footprint, which was mentioned in MS' MWC announcement as being able to fit into 1GB RAM, 16GB storage. Per rumors, this is realized only on clean installs (makes sense), and excludes most current users, as Upd 1 will normally come as an update.

A normal 8.1 clean install is around 12GB, sans the recovery partition and after pruning the swap/page files. This likely means that for upcoming devices, recovery partition will either disappear, or be offlined to USB key. Am assuming that there'll be additional savings. It would be good to see footprint <8GB, as then a 16GB device would actually be usable. XP's footprint was smaller than this; Windows got really bloated starting with Vista. Not a big deal for PCs, but is a big deal for those 16GB, 250$ Win toys MS want to see happen.

This begs the question of whether current 32GB Win tab users can clean install Upd 1 to increase their storage capacity. Has any such owner done a clean 8.1 install via USB or network? Have vendors (Dell and Asus specifically) posted touch drivers as downloadables for their tablets?

Edit: Looks like both DVP8 and Asus T100 have drivers posted.

http://www.asus.com/Notebooks_Ultrabooks/ASUS_Transformer_Book_T100/#support

http://www.dell.com/support/drivers/us/en/19/Product/dell-venue-8-pro
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Times were different. XP had an install footprint (back at RTM) of about 1.5GB for Pro, somewhat less for Home. That grew over time; XP MCE with all service packs had an install footprint of over 3.5GB. Vista had one of around 8.5GB, which was indeed a lot more (and realistically, when Vista came out turning off the pagefile was not an option on most hardware). Before XP, you could install Windows 2000 Datacenter Server (which was about as big a Windows install as existed, I think) into less than 1GB. Four years before that, NT4 could install on 124MB (I think it actually had a smaller footprint, technically). Still, that's a jump of about 10x in 5 years; by comparison, XP RTM to Vista RTM (also 5 years) required about 6x as much space.

On the other hand, storage follows Moore's Law pretty well (actually, spinning magnetic storage tends to beat it), so it made sense to pack features into that space rather than trying to squeeze the OS smaller. When XP came out in late 2001, a 12-20GB drive in a laptop or a 30-60GB drive in a desktop (brand new hardware, single drive) was pretty standard. By the time Vista came out in late 2006, storage had expanded by about an order of magnitude. The problem is, back then, nobody was trying to install PC editions of Windows on solid-state storage. Nobody with a 500GB-1TB laptop drive (or the equivalently common 2TB-4TB desktop drive) such as you might find in a modern new PC cares about Win8's 12GB install footprint. Even people with a 256GB SSD don't much care. Tablet owners do, though, hence the need to trim the OS down again...