yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
Some belated thoughts about the newly announced Surface Pro 3...

Nadella said on stage that MS doesn't want to compete with OEMs, and that it wants to create new markets, continuing what Ballmer said two years ago. SP3's high-end pricing is evidence of that, as regardless of its merits, it won't sell in large enough numbers to matter. MS' ostensible goal is for OEMs to push hybrids harder. However, there are already plenty of 2n1's available, and none of them has stood out, either in capabilities or in sales numbers. The bottleneck isn't the hardware, but the software, viz. Windows 8.x--which will be largely the same for at least the rest of this year. Surface is still just a sideshow.

I was curious in how the new MS would act, and a new Surface device was a good indicator. As expected of the Nadella appointment, "continuation" continues to be the theme, and both the SP3 and the aborted Mini were true to form. The message is still the same, only the (CEO) face has changed. As said in previous posts, I don't think this "trail blazing" strategy for Surface is viable. Sooner or later MS will have to quit dancing on the fringe and do the heavy lifting on its own, and make devices for the average consumer. It cannot *not compete* with OEMs, if only because it now owns the second largest phone maker in the world.

Avoiding the mainstream is the only reason I can think of for MS to not have an Atom-based device. SP3 has major improvements over SP2. I like both the larger 12" size and the squarer 3:2 aspect ratio. Portrait mode is now usable. But key to a tablet's functionality is its weight, since it's handheld. Think of how much more functional the device would be if it can shed much of that 1.76lbs with an Atom chip. There's no need for an iCore for note-taking or inking. Even at a premium of $500 for an Atom device, it would still have much more appeal to the mainstream user than the starting $930 price tag (incl keyboard), in addition to being much lighter and thus more usable.

Then again, it probably doesn't matter what MS trotted out for Surface this year. As above, it's about the software, and Windows 8.x has had its run. It'll be up to presumably Win9 to carry the torch next year, and everything Windows or Surface-related thus far are placeholders until the next big MS try for relevance.

Some pundits will probably proclaim that Win9 will be MS' last hope. The truth is, MS is in no danger of losing its desktop monopoly, even if that space is slowly shrinking. So, regardless of how Win9 will fare, we'll continue to see a steady dose of Windows down the line. The question is whether Metro will stick around, and whether the newly-anointed Nadella himself can survive, if indeed Win9 proves to be another flopper.

As the world turns.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
My honest opinion for the surface lineup is that there should have been 3 models:

8" Surface Mini using RT (on these smaller devices I dont think the lack of desktop support on RT is such a concern), 10" Surface with atom, 12" Pro.

Considering this thread is titled windows updates, why the hell was 8.1 update 1 not simply named 8.2? I'm actually hating it, finding it somewhat buggy on both of my machines compared to its predecessor. Notably the charms bar and recent apps bars often refusing the open with the mouse, being unable to click and drag apps downwards to close them sometimes doesnt work anymore and that new app title pane often doesnt trigger. To top that off I have my taskbar set to autohide to make the most of my machines 768 pixel vertical resolution (both machines actually) and I find that jams either open or closed very frequently. Done a system restore and reupdated on laptop and the problems persist and with the completely differing hardware of laptop and desktop I am relatively convinced its windows itself.
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
>there should have been 3 models

I don't think it matters what, or how many, Surface models are released this year, and I think MS realizes this as well. Win 8 didn't sell well, 8.1 didn't sell well, and there's no reason to think that Update 1 (or 2) will suddenly jump-start sales. Surface, regardless of how good or appropriate the hardware is, won't change this equation. The goal then isn't to push boxes, but to build the foundation for when Win9 arrives. For Surface, it's to find a hybrid form factor that will appeal to the public.

The Surface 2 and SP2 were placeholders with paper launches, and with SP3, we know why. SP3 is a major improvement over SP2. Despite the progress, SP3 has serious shortcomings (reviews have panned MS' claim of SP3 as a laptop replacement), and I see SP3 itself as a placeholder, and that it will likewise have a limited roll-out.

The Surface shtick has been the keyboard cover, which hasn't lived up to the hype. The floppy hinge + kickstand combo isn't adequate to replace the clamshell form, per MS' own "lapability" benchmark. I wouldn't be surprised if it disappears for the next iteration.

As with the software, MS is in rapid iteration mode with the hardware, and I see all the Surfaces thus far as basically beta devices, just as all Windows 8.x revs to date are public betas, with we the public being beta testers. It's no surprise you find Update 1 buggy, because its gestation was less than 5 months. From rumors, there'll be an Update 2 in the fall, and it will have new bugs.

The end goal is of course to get Win9 adopted, and rapid iteration is one way to ensure that it isn't another egg, by keeping the users in the loop during the development process. Win9 will be an iterative improvement over Win8. Whether it is improvement enough to get critical mass adoption is the main question. We'll get an indication on this once the Win9 leaks start, probably early next year.

The secondary question is how will MS push Windows as a service, to make up for the loss of licensing revenue. Win4Bing is a precursor, and we see very limited change so far. In keeping with that trend, I see MS treading very lightly on the "OS as rentware" issue, and any mandatory cloud component will be free for the near term. But at some point--sooner if Win9 is a hit, later if not--I expect MS to push hard to transition Windows into a service, with "enhanced" updates being key to get people to pony up. Some sort of bundling with Office Touch will be the likely play.
[Windows 8 General] Trig0r:
I think after no mini and just the Pro 3 announcement my lova affair with the Surface has ended.

There is now nothing coming for the Pro 2, I had the RT, had the Pro, have the Pro 2, want a bloody dock for it, but no, rather than give the users something they have been promising they instead chuck the rest of the Surface line in the bargain bin and concentrate on the Pro 3.

For me a 12" device is too big, I could stomach it if there was a Mini as well (I use my iPad Mini at home more than the 10" Pro2 I have) so I could have a choice but for me dumping the other older gen users doesnt sit well..
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
Have you tried a universal USB 3.0 docking station? (Search on the string at Amazon.) It's cheaper than the proprietary dock and not tied to any specific model, hence reusable. I think one of these is pretty much essential for the current port-deprived crop of Win tablets. The downside is that these widgets need drivers (for the DisplayLink video and GigE), and only work with Windows. If you don't need these, then any powered USB hub should suffice.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
They jumped to windows 7 because vista was never supposed to have existed. They were working on windows 7 for a couple of years and didn't bring about anything new since the XP era. They had to release something, so they put together windows vista in a hurry and just shipped it.

Then, instead of doing service packs to vista, they released the ACTUAL os, as in windows 7. You can regard vista as a passage between xp and 7, nothing more. Actually, you will see that vista blends the functionality XP has with the new UI style 7 has. Windows Vista is a failure because it was rushed. The jump in technology from xp to 7 was just too great, that's why it took so long between the releases.

Vista is pretty much a dead OS. Aside from the computers at my collage (nobody seems to know microsoft gives free licenses for lab installs) i haven't seen a vista computer in a very long while.
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
With respect to OP's question, there is broad consensus among Windows users that more attention should be paid to the desktop, and Metro be made an optional component (except on tablets). This is the single most requested change, and I think it will happen. MS did a similar 180 on the XB1. Admitting mea culpa on Windows is harder, because it means that Metro will have failed, and MS would be left without a mobile strategy. Coming up with new one would take another 2-3 years at best, meaning that MS would have no chance of catching up to Android/iOS.

Coming back to daniel-s' comment that Win8 "only need a few fixes to get right" [paraphrased], it's much harder than that, and it's not about the tech. The problem is that Google killed Microsoft's business model. Before Android, hardware is the commodity, software (the OS) is where the money is made. Now, with Android being given away and easily customized by vendors, software has also become a commodity. Today's pricing announcement of 8.1 highlights the stark contrast: $120 for basic 8.1, $200 for Pro, with DRM up the wazoo, vs Android's free and open-source model. Outside of the desktop monopoly, Windows can't compete regardless of how "good" it is.

MS' answer is to go integrated ala Apple (devices = HW + SW). It may make sense in planning, but execution has failed. Metro isn't good enough, OEM relationships are damaged, and users didn't buy into the "hybrid" model. That's why there's a total overhaul of MS, starting with the company structure along with a new head. The Nokia buy was more tactical than strategic (to prop up WP). It didn't cost much, but it actually complicates MS' turnaround strategy. Yes, we can use that word for MS at this point.

The real answer for MS is that it really needs to have a leader with vision--someone who can craft a computing future on his own, rather than simply reacting to competitors' moves. I think the tablet war is already lost, just as the smartphone war was lost. The next battle is wearables. MS should start cranking. Then again, the reorg will burn up valuable time that MS doesn't have.

What MS still has are cash cows (monopolies) with long tails. The desktop will endure, albeit in a diminished role. Lower pricing will be the way forward. Office will fare better with its entrenchment as a business standard. Diversifying to other platforms should be the solution. Servers is doing well on its own. MS will have the cash to fund new initiatives.

Personally, I'm hoping that MS finds someone like Marissa Mayer of Yahoo. She has yet to turnaround Yahoo, but she has shaken up the company, and investors are buying in. That, and she is smoking hot! Elop? Gag me.
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
Err,your wrong, vista formally known as longhorn was the initial attempt, and was worked on post xp, it was supposed to include winfs and all manor of bells and whistles, it was then scrapped quite late in its development cycle because it was like the forbidden fruit an always just out of usable reach, so they started from scratch on vista, you can still downloaded the original longhorn ISOs, 7 expanded upon vista and turned it in to a stable fast OS, however, for those of us that bothered to notice, the final sp for vista made it in to as close to win7 as they could make it without just calling it 7, there is nothing wrong at all with vista sp2. 7 is nothing like longhorn either its just a refined vista. Saying vista is just a passage to 7 is like saying windows 3.11 was a passage to 95. And it was, but its totally irrelevant to your argument, after all a horse an cart is a passage to lorry!

Vista was a failure because it completely change various hardware models instantly making a lot of older hardware that had worked in 95 stop working with out newer drivers, the change had to happen and an OS had to take the blame for it, that and the resource management wasn't quite functional until sp2. Combine that with savage anti vista press coverage and it added up to a total mess for it dispite sp2. 7 didn't need to fall on its own sward vista did it for you

Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc :D
[Windows 8 General] Trig0r:
I don't care what they call it either, I would say by the way they have gone from 8 to 8.1 that they will now be following the way apple do it, service pack will be 8.2 and so on...
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
I don't care how theyar calling it, but knowing MS there seems to be a clear pattern:

every second OS works, just look at the Windows NT or Vista debacle and tthen the exact contrary reception of XP and Windows 7

The good thing is, Ballmer and god I hope the damn wolf Elop will soon be gone and one can only pray that Bill Gates will come back. MS made the big mistake of dividing their core elements, instead of improving on the things they are doing very well: provide well known software for business and households.

Like someone mentioned, the tablet war is already lost, Android and Apple are not only way ahead but both combined are c ontrolling around 90 % of the tablet-market, even a company as bitg as MS can't compete with that. Microsoft just doesn't fit in there, they aren't as open as Android nor can their mobile OS compete with the smooth IoS sw. Also their top guys seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what their customers are looking for i.e. not releasing a 1.000 $+ tablet with 4 hours of a battery or a bad desktop experience with Windows 8.

I think what they should be doing, is very simple:

Refocus on your core business, get rid of the metro style and divide your OS, one made! for desktops and one for tablets, smartphones. I highly doubt that will ever happen though, MS seems to be too proud to admit defeat and refocus their priorities. Buying Nokia is not going to help them push WP, I loved Nokia back in the days but after they've moved from Finland and outsourced their production I haven't touched their phones nor will I ever touch them again, since they are now getting a lackluster OS known as Windows mobile.

Anyway, wishes for the next Windows os:

- built from the groundup only for the desktop

- real start-button how can you screw up something so simple and basic?!

- stability of Windows 7 and XP

- terminal as powerful as Linux

- stop pushing Bing, Skydrive...on your OS if users want to use that, they will do so if not, they won't --> improve it?!

I highly doubt anything like that will happen but one can dream right :)
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
I agree with much of that ^^

I think one crux of the situation is that they should re-divide the OS among different devices. That would solve some of the problems.

On the one hand, I agree with the idea put forward by a previous poster that Microsoft will likely be in disarray for some time. Yet, Ballmer himself said many times that the delay from XP to Vista was a disaster. With the increasingly rapid rate of innovation, unless they want their slim chances to get even worse, maybe they do need to update sooner rather than later, whatever it is; 8.2 or 9. Hmm
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
This second good OS, tick tock business is nothing but FUD

Xp was a steaming pile of dog turd until SP1/2 and only became reasonable after sp3

95 and 98 were both poor until their corresponding updates for various reasons

With the possible exception of windows 7 and 2000 (built from very solid predecessors), every OS has had big issues until it received its updates....the exception to that is 98 ME which was always crap in the eyes of many.

So yes the second good OS argument is true if you look at every second OS through rose tinted glasses, for the rest of us we acknowledge that any is will likely have issues when thrown in to the wild and that by an large MS addresses those issues.

Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc :D
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
Sure using language such as dog turd is making a pointless point better. Windows XP was well received and worked so well, that people are still using it and why it, it's a damn good OS easily one of the best MS has ever made. Also Windows 7 wasn't built from it's predecessor - thanks god for that - otherwise it would have had the same issues as Vista. MS looked at why XP was so succesful and improved on some of the things, voila a very good and stable OS.

So yes, the second OS argument is true and very well acknowledged by a lot of users, press and even manufacturers worldwide.

IF Ms doesn't change their customer approach and keeps thinking, that paid off reviews and viral marketing in forums or whatever will help them sell a desktop OS which clearly isn't made for the desktop or overpriced tablets they are in for a rude awakening it's as simple as that.

but if they learn their lesson and actually are trying to improve on Windows 7 MS could do well again. There really aren't too many things MS got wrong with Windows 7 one would be the start button menu, if you don't use classic shell it's not as good and organized as XP, or having to use godmode in order to get all the options under one control panel.
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
XP was not well received in any circles i had access too at the time, I seem to recall hardware issues, software incompatibility, generally a malware magnet bug ridden os until sp2, but we are all entitled to our own opinions fact, fiction or otherwise.

But for the record, 7 derived from vista, and minus the ui changes you would be hard pushed to find much difference between vista sp2 and 7

Curious, which hardware manufacturers have said they agree with this tick tock?

Almost all versions if windows have been poor to start with and then grew in to something good

Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc :D
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
What are you smoking? Microsoft hasn't divided anything. They are actually pushing to unite most of their software products under the same banner. Why do you think they push the common kernel on all devices?

Windows has been more stable now than it has ever been before. Their products better than ever. So perhaps you should stop being rigid and embrace change: it is healthy for the brain.

The tablet war is lost? how? Windows only had tablets out for a little less than 1 year. Come back this time next year, people will realize how useless Apple and Android tablets are and will switch to the REAL tablet OS that is windows 8.
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
And I thought Apple fanbois would be the worst, well I was wrong.

The thing with malware was simple: people used the OS thinking the internal virus-scanner would have been enough, it obviously wasn't. I am not saying it was bugfree or anything like that but for the most part it was a very solid release. The main problem with all OS is, people are rushing for a day 1 buying instead of waiting a bit (same with consoles, mobile phones..)

Just take a look at how many people are asking for options to get a Win 7 discount when buying a notebook, because Win 8 isn't built for desktops. Most retailers agree, because they know the people otherwise wouldn't buy the whole product then.

MS seems(ed) to learn from their mistakes by improving the second version all the time maybe it's just a hope of mine but I think Windows 9 will be a better desktop experience if they get things right.
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
There wasnt an internal virus scanner in xp, I think at its height an xp was likely infect within seconds on installing it and connecting it to the internet without 3rd party av software. XP was not solid, it grew in to something reasonably good but it sure as hell was not good from the start, you infer I'm some MS fanboy but one might contest that you are in fact the MS fanboy given the use tinted opinion, I however like any software that's good and does its job well, hense I'm typing on an android tablet whilst my phone is a wp, my media Centre is windows and my home file server is Linux

Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc :D
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
The Fanboicomment wasn't directed at you, I can respect and appreciate other opinions. Just I can't remember having big problems with the stability of XP

I think what people like me are looking for, is something made for the desktop improving on things that worked well before (i.e Windows 7) and I really so no reason why a company as big and rich as MS shouldn't be able to divide their OS in order to accomplish a better mobile and desktop experience. That's the whole point of why I am waiting for Win 9 and of course the great Win 7
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Leaks from Microsoft -

1. The Windows team is in dissaray

2. They don't want to get left behind while change is at hand

3. 8.2 was tentatively the next plan before the CEO change news

4. 'Spring 2014' some updates coming to Win 8, at least including 'one Windows store for every Windows device, possible Xbox One also'. It's known inside as GDR 2014 (general distribution release)

- Mary Jo Foley, Windows Weekly

An article covering some of this (the podcast has all of it) can be read here: http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-talks-up-single-app-store-at-company-meeting-sources-7000021232/
[Windows 8 General] justmpm:
Hi Everyone,

I did a little bit of cleaning. This is a discussion thread, so let's try not to insult each other over what is mostly differences of opinion.

Thanks!