yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
>if you wanted to go from vista to 7 you did the exact same thing, and XP to vista and 2000 to XP....

The difference is MS' yearly release vs the prior 3-yr cycle, meaning there'll be many more iterations MS has to support. Having to provide backward compatibility to have them all work with each other would be a support nightmare. 8.1's full pricing (except for Win8 users) indicates that MS is transitioning to limit backward support to the same major version, eg you must be on rev A for any A.x upgrade. Aside from the support reason, it's also a way to push faster adoption.

>Microsoft do more than apple to get developers. Apple also take a 30% cut. But apple dont offer dreamspark...

Sounds great if you're a student. However, most devs aren't students. When you have a product that you depend upon for your livelihood, then that 30% cut matters a fair bit more than some offer of "free" dev tools.

For Windows (Metro) going forward, software can only be installed from Windows Store, meaning that all devs must pay MS 30% (25% with large volume). Before Win8, devs never had to pay MS, or have the "store-only" restriction. Even Apple hasn't resorted to this "tax" for its desktop OS. It's why Steam bolted, and why we haven't seen much desktop software migrated to Metro.

Anyway, the "the other guy also does it" rationale (which also applies to Surface's pricing) is why MS' strategy is the failure it is today. MS can't do what Apple does because it isn't Apple. It's nowhere near Apple's market leading position in mobile. It doesn't have the Apple brand, or its loyal users. The reality is reflected in today's launches of iPads vs Surfaces. The sheer contrast of the two is so stark that it was downright humorous. I feel for the MS store employees.

>Corporation has money, yeah its not going to be doing anything totally drastic anytime soon.

Yes, all of MS' post-Win8 moves to date have been incremental. Its Win & Office cash cows will sustain it for a while yet. But in today's tech world, where the network effect is so dominant, the pace of change isn't linear, but cascading. When the end comes, it will be very fast.

After three years since WP7, one can arguably make the point that WP's single-digit share is irreversible. Win (Metro)' integration effort is projected to take two years. I don't think MS has the luxury of that much time, and neither does MS. Hence the reorg and CEO change.

We all hope things will improve for MS. But in business, hope isn't the way to bet.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
8.1 is comparible to service packs. so yearly service packs doesnt sound any different from what they did before.

Windows phone is now in double digit market share in europe. Just over 10% in france and a little over 12.5 in the UK.

And there is this lovely quote button you know. Makes things much easier to read.

I am a student yes. But bizspark is not for students. I didnt get my dreamspark account via the university either, I just filled out a questionnaire at microsoft's campus party stand.
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
An attaboy to MS PR guy for doing his job:

http://macrumors.com/2013/10/23/microsoft-bashes-apples-iwork-software-new-ipads

The above missive refers to Apple's recent decision to freebiefy OS X along with associated software, particularly the productivity suite. Ignoring the back-and-forth, the guy did a good job in, first, raising awareness for Surface, which to date has been a snoozer. Second, he did OK in positioning Surfies as the "productivity alternative" to iPad. It's not a great arg, but he doesn't have much ammunition. Anyway, a laudable attempt, although it will more than PR spin to help MS.

Apple's move segues in with the discussion here of MS' chase for premium, even while it's chasing for more shares (yes, exactly, hahah). Apple did well, as it hits MS where it hurts the most: productivity software that is MS' cash cow, with fat juicy margins. A free suite preemptively protects the iPad turf from MS' upcoming Office Touch incursion, as why would consumers pay for Office, when there's a free and native "good enough" tool? It cuts off Office's expansion potential and limits Office to the anemic Metro platform. Android? Google Docs. Not as good as Office, sure, but "good enough" for consumers.

Students of tech history may recall that MS Word started out as the perennial wallflower to WordPerfect on DOS. It wasn't until the transition to Windows, when MS played its tricks to gain time-to-market advantage, that Word got the win. Office thrived because it owned the Windows platform. Owners of competing platforms are going to protect their turf, and Office will face strong headwind on both iOS and Android.

The obvious counter-move is to make Office free to gain share. Which means the Office cash cow will be going on a serious diet right quick. I think freebie Office will happen (for consumers), because it is already happening. MS is already bundling Office for Surface and small tabs. So, whether or not MS wants to climb down a peg, its software margins will take a hit regardless.

Assuming Office gets traction on iOS/Android, it's still a win for those platforms. Office legitimizes productivity on mobile, and enables easier access to business accts. Major Catch-22. Don't envy the new guy. More, Office is the only ace left for Surface. If Office is off to fight its own battles, Surfies will suffer mightily. Then again, when you have zero share, the only way is up. Right?

Anyway, competition is great. As the consumer, you win. FREE FREE FREE. It's what I like to hear. Next up: Freebie Windows. You heard it here first.
[Windows 8 General] Ricky Divjakovski:
I personally think there going straight to windows 9. I can't believe windows ditched desktop users for touch. They made quite a big mistake redesigning the ui, because truth is all they were thinking about was touch this swipe that... I've lost hope tbh, the only way there gonna win people back is if they redesign the ui again :p TRUTH BE TOLD!
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Latest news from the usual sources:

- Windows '8.2' set for Spring 2014

- Windows '9' set for Spring 2015 (possibly to be called simply 'Windows'). Set to be a fusion of Windows RT and Windows Phone

- New Windows release schedule for Spring of each year, no longer Autumn/Fall

- Microsoft is looking for someone that will 'run with the current changes' rather than someone that will 'shake things up'

This perhaps temporarily settles the idea of whether they'll revert more Windows 8 changes or continue.

If Windows 9 is set to be a fusion of RT and Phone.....what the heck happens to the decades of development on x86 Windows? Despite that I like certain features of Windows 8, Windows 9, if these ideas are true, epitomises one problem I think Micro has - pushing change at users, rather than facilitating the change that is happening. If they were doing it correctly, each iteration x.1 x.2 wouldn't need to backtrack.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
It means windows phone and windows RT will have same functionality (YAY???)

Please, for the love of god, stop dramatizing over the disappearance of desktop. it is not going to happen. They will simply bring the windows runtime API across all platforms, like they said they will....seriously...the drama must stop.
[Windows 8 General] hackinblack:
I find my self never using the start button. (Startisback) on windows 8.

Personally i find it dated. Other then that i agree with most things said in this thread so far. And one os across devices would be amazing.

Id also like to see tight integration between

Desktop OS

Xbox One

Tablet. They all should work as one yet specialize in there main purpose.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
The only god thing about the start button in windows 8.1 is that you can now "right click" it with the touchscreen and pop up the awesome windows+x menu without using a keyboard or a mouse (in 8 it was pretty though).
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
And nigh on impossible with RDP and touch!
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Julie Larson Green hints at a Windows future without the RT stream. She talks about likely just Windows core and Windows Phone OS merging. Well that's not novel. Why didn't they just try to merge Phone OS gently into post-Windows7 instead?

This isn't the direct link but it's common news now:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/25/...feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+WinRumors+(WinRumors)

Some of the rest stays the same - the plan seems to be Windows 8.2 marketed mostly as Windows 8 to come on stream in Spring 2014 or earlier, and Windows 9 possibly Spring 2015. But...they still have to contend with the new CEO. Has anyone read what the candidates have planned for core Windows? The Xbox and Bing stuff seems to have gotten all the news.
[Windows 8 General] coldbloc:
No way, I don't very much like the number 9, or 8.2 for that matter.

Windows 8.8 is much more lucky name.
[Windows 8 General] ayambrand:
Wow, that is something new that I know for today in window 8.1 ;) Thanks for the given tips.
[Windows 8 General] alex2792:
Once Office is ported to modern UI the desktop will be slowly phased out. I'm guessing that MS will remove it from tablets while laptops/desktops will come with the pro version that retains the desktop for legacy apps. The one OS strategy is sound and if MS executes they will be years ahead of Apple and Google.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
I was listening to Mary Jo Foley of ZDnet last night, she says that the Windows team is now prepared to backtrack on just about anything to encourage Windows 7 users to migrate to 8. I think she was referring more to 'Threshold' a.k.a. Windows 9 for Spring 2015, but maybe we could expect more concession in the Spring 2014 update? I don't hate Windows 8 but for non-touch notebook/desktops I think it's fairly messy.
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Frankly, I think it's all going to come down to the new management. Whoever ends up running things, and whatever direction they want to take the company, will mean a *lot* more than anything Microsoft announces right now that isn't related to that leadership change. It's probably worth looking at the stances of the most likely candidates, though.

Overall, the whole thing is really irritating. A lot of the goals in Win8 are good. Sandboxed apps, a central source of software and updates for it, app installs without Admin, touch-friendly apps, maximizing battery life and minimizing data usage, supporting multiple processor architectures, at-a-glance view of app info, full-screen apps on devices with small screens, and so on. The problem is twofold, though: first, they didn't do a very good job of implementing it (for example, "modern" apps would be a lot more usable if I could put them into windows on the desktop without crazy third-party hacks); second, they did a terrible job of the transition from the old system to the new one. Requiring new APIs and UIs (meaning, re-write all your apps), changing the UI more radically than any version since Windows 95 had done (not quite as drastic as 95 was, but still substantial), making the store the *only* convenient way to *get* these sandboxed apps (sideloading works but is full of hassles), making the sandbox so restrictive that a lot of useful software can't be written, and ease people into the new UI more progressively. Well, hopefully they learned (the right lessons)...

As for "Windows 9" vs. any other name, that's a branding decision, and nothing more. You can count on two things from MS where branding is concerned: first, they will do whatever they think is best from a marketing position regardless of anything else; second, they will be completely, ridiculously wrong. Such is their pattern for years now, at least; I suppose that too could change under new management. One can hope...
[Windows 8 General] KJ98653:
Every mobile device running the traditional Windows UI has failed. Nothing major will be done for non-touch users in Windows 9. The mouse will never be first priority again. Small growth of Windows PC over the next several years will be PC gaming rigs along with firesales on x86 and ARM tablets because they do not sell. Real work will be done primarily on desktops and the laptop will become niche relative to tablets. And when Office and other functions are ported to Metro interface functionality will be stripped out a la OneNote Metro app. There will be no backtracking because WIndows on mobile devices has been a massive flop since 2002, hence the creation of Windows 8, Windows RT, and manufacturing of Surface tablets. Everything is going to be blown up over the next decade and many PC OEMs will be insolvent.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Windows Threshold a.k.a. 9

- Full start menu returning

- Metro apps in windows

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/further-changes-coming-windows-threshold

Surely this stuff will be added to Windows 8 in a service pack / Windows 8.2 update?

Three SKUs

- RT+PC+Phone, consumer, enterprise

http://www.zdnet.com/more-on-microsofts-sku-morphic-windows-vision-7000024092/

Anyone following these two people for the past few years already know how reliable their sources are. They outline what happens about a year before it does. All the other sites that I've seen are wannabes, guessers and more of them simply reference the above two people anyway.
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
That's a pretty reasonable path, given where they are now. I do have (more than) a few questions about it, though. The highlights:

"Modern" SKU (phones, tablets, etc.): where does this fall between current phone and tablet experiences, where RT is basically just a recompile of desktop Win8 to ARM plus a lockdown on non-sandboxed apps, and WP8 doesn't support traditional Windows users, Windows networks, Windows admin tools, Windows scripts, mouse or keyboard input, multiple apps in the foreground at once, apps requesting access to arbitrary file system locations, or a bunch of other stuff that even RT has?

"Consumer" SKU (the new mass-market, x86-targeted one): They say it'll be focused on mouse+keyboard, which probably means it'll have a desktop, but will it be locked down or will traditional Win32 apps be usable? I mean, I'm *pretty* sure they wouldn't be so idiotic as to shut out all the people who don't want to go get whatever the closest "Modern" equivalent of Photoshop and so on is, but who knows...

"Enterprise" SKUs: what really useful (but underused) features will they cut this time? I'm already delaying upgrading my (Enterprise SKU) desktop from 8.0 to 8.1 because I really don't want to lost Interix/SUA. :(
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Do you use Windows 8 on anything? A notebook or anything?

I did until recently, I had a surprising computer disaster and restored the native manuf. Win 7. I'm pondering dual boot again. I wonder if Microsoft will add much of these concessions to 8.2. If yes, I'd be thrilled. :victory:

Can anyone remember, did Msft. add many Win 7 features in a service pack for Vista? I can't remember...
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
Why would they do such a thing? They won't implement the features of windows 8 on 7, just like they didnt implement windows 7 features on vista.

By that logic, everyone should just buy windows 95 and get the features of windows 8.

Plus, there are technical incompatibilities between windows 7 and 8, overcoming them and giving you windows 8 features on windows 7 will be like giving you windows 8 for free. They might do it, if they take the office subscription route.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
But they did back-port Windows 7 features to Vista. They also delayed the Vista release because of back-porting security features developed in Vista for XP. Plus, from a PR and customer satisfaction standpoint, they need to resolve the popular W8 hate and pacify angry customers. That's general 'business logic'.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
They won't give any features which directly affect the user. It would be counter productive for their business.

You won't get nice features like Hyper V, hybrid startup, or metro apps in windows 7.

The only thing I want them to port backwards is the windows runtime API. It is just too nice to restrict it to W8, but one can dream:(
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Windows 8 Updates: Update 1, Windows 9

Has anyone else seen the news on this today?

So, Paul Thurott is saying that his contact tells him that the new Windows team has 'evaluated the mistakes of the previous team and is ready to appease desktop users'. He described them as pretty shocked the severity of the mistakes of the original team, at a time when MSFT simply cannot afford to lose time or market.

There is a lot of confusion now about what's split between 8.2 and 9. But most believe that 8.2 will resolve desktop issues once and for all. Quoted was "desktop users will never be second class citizens again".

More on the Sinofsky coup too, he is believed to have been removed ahead of Ballmers ejection. The most polarizing people and Ballmer allies were eliminated. Most ironic to me is this: the traditional Windows team created the issues with Wiindows 8 and branded unhappy users as 'whiners'. The new Windows chief Terry M and his team, formerly the Mobile chief, are the ones determined to rectify the mistakes and maintain desktop users. What next, the former Windows team boost mobile?! Strange but funny.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
You never know, you may get some of what you wish for! This week is like the Windows 8 wishlist / appeasement ;)
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Worth noting: WinMo and WP were *very* different projects, and "former chief of mobile" should be identified clearly as to which "mobile" is being referred to. Although a lot of the same people worked on both projects, especially for WP7 (which has the same core as WinMo even though the userspace was largely replaced), it matters a lot from a hacker/tweaker perspective. WinMo was, for all its many and varied issues, a fairly tweakable OS which, by and large, put the user in command. WP is... not. It's arguably owner-hostile, in fact.

I hate this trend in computing (and consider it one of the great sins of Apple that they pushed this model so hard while also pushing the manifestly good ideas of touch-first UIs on modern smartphone form-factors, centralized software distribution (the lock-down on software sources is one of the things I detest, though), powerful mobile browsers, etc.). Android has done a lot toward proving that such lockdown is neither required nor even necessarily positive, but that hasn't stopped Microsoft from jumping on the "can't trust the user to tie their own shoes" bandwagon. This is why I hack WP and WRT, incidentally: demonstrating how much more useful a device can be when it's not crippled by design.

Anyhow, the idea of the geniuses behind WP - the ones who learned nearly all the wrong lessons and only a few of the right ones from iOS - running the "big" Windows division is seriously distasteful. Linux is still too far from practical for my primary use cases - mostly for reasons involving gaming and preferred dev tools, but some other reasons too - and I really don't want to see Windows go down the same owner-hostile sewer.
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
Well said GDTD, although I don't think we can solely blame apples locked down anti user model, MS took a lot of flack from WM, and most of it was unjust, OEMs and even the networks made every effort until very late in WM 6.5.x development to screw over the OS with bloat and other stupid changes. I can see why apple didn't want that hassle from a user perspective and why ultimately MS didn't want it at all. "If they can't break it then the user will get exactly the experience we want"
[Windows 8 General] UBNAS81:
Dear OP - would you like some cheese with that Whine - you're part of the reason Windows 8 adoption / development of native applications hasn't taken off as fast as it should have. I personally love the interface on 8.1 (8.0 was clearly a beta version, and should have been released as such) - and I use the Desktop 99.9% of the time. Only "apps" I use on my desktop are Flipboard, and Mail, I don't feel forced to do anything, if I want to stay in desktop, guess what, no-one is forcing me to, you can boot direct, you can literally uninstall everything that is Metro. The fact that the OS boots my 4 year old computer in less than half the time it used to is reason enough for me. The fact that I have a choice to use Metro, or to not use Metro is really what separates it from other OS's. Android just plain does not work on a desktop computer, its applications are really touch only - same with IOS - Windows 8 however offers you the choice to do both, to me that's already a step above the competition. Quit your crying, install classic shell start menu, and move on. The fact that Lenovo gave people Pokki means nothing. If I went out and purchased a new Lenovo, guess what the first thing id do, Uninstall!

I have gone out and picked up one of the Dell Venue 8 Pro's - this is what Windows 8 was made for. A true hybrid device, I can use it as a tablet, carry it around, its not much bigger than an e-reader..........then, if I want, I can wireless display my screen to a monitor / TV connect to mouse and keyboard, and do whatever the hell I want (Photoshop, Lightroom, AutoCAD - yes they all work flawlessly on Baytrail Atom surprisingly). There is no limitations - the only limitations to Windows Tablets is the GPU. When they figure out how to have a docking station with GPU that throttles integrated graphics when docked, It will be even more of a game changer.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
^^ I imagine you haven't given the time to consider the ideas of those of us with different findings than you and I doubt you actually read the OP. The tone alone hasn't got a shred of basic respect. I read about the first two lines of your's and discovered that it was too much, so I'll exchange with you the same courtesy and not read further.
[Windows 8 General] gammite:
windows 8 suits my needs well and was a great progression from windows 7 for my needs.

those fixated on metro/modern/start "button' need to move on. win 8.1 made great strides in most of the complained about areas. There are so many under the hood improvements that make a power user's day better I don't understand most of the complaints.

windows 8 is not perfect but it makes my life way easier.

for the record I use windows 8 with no mods on 3 custom built desktops, an asus g75vw and two tablets (dell venue 8 pro and acer iconia w500). its a win for me.
[Windows 8 General] Anonymously_Unknown:
I have a Venue 8 Pro too. I fear that there would be no easy way to physically update it to Windows 9 whenever its released due to the lack of bootable options with a USB OTG cable and a powered optical USB drive.
[Windows 8 General] gammite:
there are ways to do it. but it will likely require a flash drive and a powered usb hub with spliced wire hack. lol.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
You can perform in place upgrades from windows vista to 7 and 7 to 8 with a digital download so it stands to reason that the same will apply for 8 to 9. Its easier than using a CD actually, but sometimes older files lying around can be slightly problematic, lets just say in place upgrades always seem to be slightly less stable than blank installs, although most people using a CD seem to do the inplace upgrade so its the same thing anyway.
[Windows 8 General] go0gle:
They just need to add a function to turn off the tablet "modern" mode if the user has no use for it.. which is probably what's going to happen with the corporate SKU, or even the x86 one.

The ARM SKU will probably stay the same an merge with WP. They might get rid of the desktop..

They will probably improve the desktop as well.

Other than that, I find Windows 8 superior to 7 in almost every way.

Windows 9 is at least 4 years away..

You will get 8.2 via a store update.. much like 8.1

I am in a similar situation and what surprises me is how well it works on different form factors.. no other OS does this at the moment.