yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
Wow that's a very good and insightful comment thank you for that, really hit the nail on the head here. I think the real problem with Microsoft as a whole is, that Ballmer is and always was too much of a "PR sales type of guy", those types are often very arrogant and stubborn. Shareholders and other Yes-men indeed love them, because they have no clue about the big pictures, at first will pay everything upfront and if things are going wrong, everyone - but of course themselves - will be blamed and the downspiral called reorganization starts.

I mean, focus groups, customers (novice, advanced an pro) told MS that metro would not fly and asked for some basic things (start button, boot into desktop directly...) but Ballmer mocked them instead of listening. Whoever came up with this Metroidea should have taken a closer look at how Apple and Android mobile devices work, both are using icons instead of overly large tiles, although some buttons are only digital it still better than designing a whole OS around gestures. Like mentioned before, I think MS is rich and big enough to divide the desktop OS from the mobile one which - despite all the unite it credo - has to be done. At some point they will not only reach a limit, but also have to make decisions for Desktop which means contra mobile and vice versa, so dividing them would make more sense.

Also MS seems to be so focused on controlling the user experience instead of allowing customization like Android, for some this may not be a big deal but if you look at the big picture here it is: people who want just a working OS without a ton of customization are using Apple, people who love to play around with ROMs, launchers...are using Android, business-users are still heavily using Blackberry so where does this leave MS?

i still think their best for mobile devices would have been Surface Pro 2 if priced right, but seriously who is going to pay $ 1.000 + 150 $ for a tablet? Yes, I know it's not just a tablet according to microsoft it's a full pc well...no it isn't it PCs are way more powerful and things can be replaced easily. Which brings me to the point of pricing, why not offer a cheaper version and call it Surface Pro 1.5 (without Skype points?, Skydrive GBs) and all the other nonsense stuff for around $ 800 including the keyboard? I have no doubt the quality of the product is very high and superb but Asus is going to release a tablet, which will feature the whole Windows OS experience + Android if they nail that right and the price is ok, why buy a Surface Pro 2 for even more. Also MS could look at other ways to provide something unique, upgradable RAM and replaceable batteries would be a good start why haven't they thought about that?

I fully a gree with your asessment of Ubuntu, basically abandoned it for ArchLinux and Linux Mint (this baby is unbelievable fast and customizable).

The good thing for MS though is, that all isn't lost if they can refocus their prirorities and deliver with Windows 9 maybe and their new CEO will be an old one (Bill Gates) I think at least their desktop future will be secured.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept of "smartphones and tablets replacing desktop PCs" or "Android is a viable alternative to Windows" or stuff like that.

Most people do not realize that the vast majority of Android user base have, in fact, at least 1 windows device (a desktop PC probably) as well.

Almost all tablet users have, in fact, at least one laptop and/or desktop PC in their homes. The "increase" in Android sales is caused by the marketing strategy instated by OEMs and Google: One device every 1-2 years. A typical windows device lasts you at least 5 years (if you know how to maintain, can go up to 10), you can easily see why Microsoft appears to be losing "marketshare".

Apple applies pretty much the same strategy. Out of all companies, MS is probably the only one which provides a service for as long as 10 years (your iphone you just paid 700$ will be useless by next year when apple releases a new model which is basically the same thing but with a different case)

Android is never going to overthrow Windows. Never. Why? The same reason Linux never succeeded: it is too fragmented. Any professional productivity software will be a nightmare to code for Android (even worse than on Linux, cause on Android, swapping kernels is easier and can be done by someone with monkey intelligence). Most productivity software is based on Windows. That means the shinny app you so mindlessly abuse on your Android is probably compiled on a Windows powered device.

So, instead of grabbing the "tech" articles written by those who have, in fact, now idea what is really going on, you should probably go play farmville or some stupid flash game on facebook (that is probably as much as you will ever get on Android anyway, since large scale games won't ever be touching Android).

While Android and iOS will probably rule the space of consumption devices, Windows will maintain it's unchallenged position as productivity company.

The only device model threatened by the evolution of tablets is the laptop. Since tablets have gotten to the power of a laptop in the last few months, expect laptop sales to drop in favor of Windows tablets. But desktop PCs will probably never die. By the time a tablet can do what my desktop does now, the average desktop computing power will probably be able to calculate the mass of the universe in 1ms.

PS: Windows Phone is indeed a kinda botched up platform right now, but it improves with every update. Anyway, Windows Phones have never been the strong selling point of Microsoft, just an alternative on the market.
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
Who is saying tablets are going to replace desktop PCs? It was the same thing with notebooks and ultrabooks whatnot in the end nothing will and can replace a desktop PC: they can easily be updated with newer hardware, are still the go to thing for power hungry projects such as 3d modelling, video cutting and productivity overall.

My android devices (going to switch my smartphone from Blackberry to Android) are not used to replace my PC, I want them to be fast and to provide me with an ability to take notes, which I will edit at home using my desktop or laptop if I am at a hotel but I agree with you, I think sales of 15" + laptops will be affected by more and more powerful tablets. A tablet to me is just a bigger smartphone with some bonuses in terms of on the fly productivity. I don't use Apple products, because I like to toy around with customization so I can't comment on that.

See, you have already given an answer why MS should focus on a clean desktop version and another mobile version not integrate them into one. The mobile market is dominated by Android and Apple, the desktop dominated - for good reason - by MS but saying that you can't be productive with Linux simple is false, there are some pretty good freeware tools such as openoffice, libreoffice although MS is still the goto OS because of the sheer amount of software.

My personal advice would be trying to be less of a hardcore fanboy and see the purpose behind different devices...
[Windows 8 General] garwynn:
Agreed. Intel recently had its "Experience Intel Tour" in town for ITP members and it was stunning to me how they are focusing on mobile. It wasn't that they believed desktop users aren't there - but that they didn't need to target them for sales. (Thinking probably being those who buy desktops will continue to buy desktops for the most part). I saw nothing in the presentations, even with the heavy slant of pushing mobile devices and the NUCs, to suggest desktops are going away.

Matter of fact, I am shipping a custom built desktop out to an XDA user this week because the person wanted a custom solution that you couldn't get. Everyone either wanted to oversell on stuff they didn't need or not enough.

And that doesn't even talk about gaming. Look at what is going into Steambox.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
I had a nexus 7, it never managed to replace my desktop PC in any way whatsoever except as being something convenient to pick up and browse the web on and as a mobile serial terminal. Actually at the time I only had the desktop PC and the nexus tablet so if I needed a serial terminal I had the choice of tablet or moving whatever serial device I had to the desktop so I guess the android device did win out there but thats hardly a thing applying to every damn person on the planet.

I now have a laptop and no longer have the nexus. It doesn't replace the desktop fully although I will admit that since getting a laptop I don't use the desktop as much, but gaming doesn't go too well on the laptop :P
[Windows 8 General] mjs2011:
Pretty much the same story here. I missed the small stuff when I had my Nexus 7. I couldn't use hdmi out or my external hard drive, so I ended up going with the HP Split, which serves as a laptop/tablet hybrid. I now have the best of both worlds.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
External hard drives do work with the nexus, they are just awkward. USB-OTG cable gives you USB host abilities. The nexus doesn't have USB mass storage support by default but you can get apps (no root required) that allow browsing of USB storage on the nexus. This all works fine for memory sticks (I used it). Hard drives have a slight issue though, a USB port should be 5V and capable of supplying 0.5A, the nexus I tested with a multimeter at 4.7V which is close enough that most devices will work, but most android devices have no hope of supplying 0.5A on the USB port. Hard drives are power hungry, they need almost all of that 0.5A, they don't get it from a USB-OTG cable. If you have one of those Y splitter cables with 2 USB plugs on it for power, you can connect the data one to the nexus and the second one to a USB mains adaptor and the hard drive will work, a mains powered USB hub also works, I tried the hub option myself. If you have one of the non portable external hard drives which has its own power cable to an AC mains outlet, they work too.

My Xperia M phone does have USB storage support, needs a workaround for the power issue but no special app required.

Windows tablets I dont think will replace desktops for the same reasons laptops dont replace desktops. Performance. Oh, many windows tablets also suffer from the 0.5A issue although 10" tablets usually arent effected as badly as 7". To be fair some windows laptops have also had issues supplying 0.5A for power hungry devices.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
Laptops are in huge danger right now, tablets are getting pretty close in term of hardware power, plus the outstanding mobility.. The desktop will probably never fail.
[Windows 8 General] mjs2011:
Yeah, I remember trying the USB-OTG for my external hard drive and the problem was that it didn't have enough juice to actually power my hard drive, and I eventually gave up. Definitely not as easy as just plugging it into my Windows tablet.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
Proof or it didn't happen.

Oh wait, it didn't happen.

As I said many times on many, many forums: desktop on windows is there to stay. There is no clue that in the next 50 years desktop will disappear or be replaced with metro or whatever you fear they want to replace it with (notice how the desktop is actually very accurate when using touchscreen compared to Android for instance, due to MS very good touchscreen drivers).

So, if you are going to repeat "facts" without any proof whatsoever, you should probably go to ZDNet and start writing articles for them, you fit them perfectly.

Besides, MS has had touchscreens and tablets LONG before apple and Steve Jobs even dreamed of them. Just google the history of tablets/smartphones. MS didn't jump on any bandwagon, the others did jump in MS bandwagon and make smartphones/tablets more accessible to the ordinary folk.
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
>desktop on windows is there to stay

Your tendency of petty putdowns and name-calling has dissuaded me from encouraging more of the same behavior from you, but really, take off the blinders and look around. MS itself has declared the WIMP model as legacy going forward. There've been no major upgrades for any of the popular Windows "desktop" software for the last two years.

Now, you can claim that "legacy" Win is here to stay, and it wouldn't be completely wrong, as WIMP won't simply disappear. But unless MS (the owner of Windows) changes its tune, all the cool new software will be going somewhere else. People don't run Windows, or an OS. They run applications.

Is it even possible for you to express yourself without the childishness? Should I involve a mod to keep you under control?
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
Yeah, when I first tried my external hard drive I plugged it into the OTG cable direct, little LED came on, drive didnt spin up though. Powered hub fixed it of course.
[Windows 8 General] garwynn:
No disrespect but your post reflects the same qualities you chide someone else about.

And I agree with the person. You'll be able to migrate some of the market away to smaller devices, others to possibly mobile. Academia always follows different rules so you'll see this sector abandon much of its desktops minus data entry - they've been heading that way for over 20 years.

But companies? With a bottom line, no clear ROI on investing in new tech as well as the immense amount of development to support it? They would tell you, as my bosses have told me - we don't care if we're not the coolest on the block. We're here to provide xxxxx - not to have the hippest technology on the block. And that enterprise sector, in part thanks to government purchasing, is STILL the biggest segment of sales outside of general consumers. It was a slog to get many of them off mainframes and some have still not even done that - it will be an equally head-banging slog to get them moved on beyond the box, screen, keyboard and mouse.

So your point of view may be right in one segment of the economy - but doesn't ring true across the board.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
I am sorry, but this is how a conversation works. Not everybody has to agree with you, and you do seem kinda stubborn because you simply don't understand you have no valid proof to back up your claims.

Anyway, I rest my case. Arguing with you is pointless anyway (and here i thought the MSDN forum is bad).

PS: Just because you don't see the updates to windows desktop (or don't know how to use them) doesn't mean they aren't there.
[Windows 8 General] SharpnShiny:
Latest rumours:

1. Windows 9 originally proposed for Autumn 2014, now scheduled for Spring 2015

2. Windows 8.2 coming Spring 2014

This comes from the usual sources which, have been very accurate on all Micro. news in the past few years so they obviously known people there. For anyone following these people you already know exactly how accurate they are, for any doubters, give them a try, let them prove themselves to you...

http://www.zdnet.com/what-comes-next-after-windows-8-1-7000022034/
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
I don't think the dates mean anything. As rumor says, MS is in flux, and even people there don't know what'll happen. People are waiting on the new guy to articulate a new strategy, as the current default strategy--integrate and iterate--won't pull Windows out of its tailspin. Look where WP is, after 3 years of iteration and some billions of dollars for Nokia's help.

The only thing to do now is wait and watch market response to 8.1 and Surface. 8.1 reviews are up. As expected, consensus is that 8.1 improves on 8, but 8's fundamental issues remain. Pre-sale mktg activities for both have had zero buzz. As a microcosm, see how dead these forums are. No enthusiasm. Emotions matter for consumer buys. Anyone here doing the midnight vigil for a Surface 2?

Sales will likely go the same way: better, but not enough to change PC's downtrend. More to the point, not enough to establish Win in the mobile market. I am curious if hybrids will at least catch on as a category. The potential exists, but execution has been lacking: high price, weak eco (no Metro productivity apps).

Win's best shot will be with Bay Trail toys at $300-ish. Asus 10" T100 at $350 should be a decent seller as a neo-netbook. Specs-wise and price-wise, these are competitive against 10" Androids (although Androids have better displays and higher res). But at the popular 7-8" size, there's no contest. The Win desktop doesn't come into play at these small sizes, and price disparity vs Androids is too stark.

Intel CEO's claim of cheap Intel toys add some intrigue. Presumably the $99 tablet will run Android, which obviously won't help Windows. $299 Haswell laptops may be more appealing to the traditional PC market, although I don't think the Haswell brand has as much cachet as Intel is hoping for. Low-end Haswells will be rebranded Bay Trails.

MS has always been a conservative company. Win8 was its one big leap, which missed, and I don't see any more big leaps coming soon. It will take desperation, and MS isn't yet desperate. We don't know who'll be the new guy, but we have a pretty good idea of what he'll be like. How? Because we can get a read on the people selecting him: Gates, Thompson and the MS board.

That's the key weapon for a good observer: When things get murky, know the people making the decisions. No need for rumors and guesses. If your people-reading skills are good, you can glean the general thrust of their future actions with a fair level of accuracy.

MS has graciously provided bios and interviews of its board. Pay particular attention to Thompson (who along with Gates are the key guys), not so much to what he says but how he says it. Glean his attitude and outlook.

http://www.microsoft.com/investor/CorporateGovernance/BoardOfDirectors/default.aspx
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
A low price, laggy and mostly useless Android tablet is the perfect advertisement for Windows. MS's tablet will soon take off and get the upper hand in the market because you can simply do anything with one (strictly talking about x86 tablets).

And your argument with bad desktop experience on a 7" tablet does not hold. The desktop has been optimized in windows 8 to be more touch friendly.The touchscreen driver is very accurate anyway (just try it).

And nobody says you can't attach a bluetooth mouse when you need precision?

I can defiantly see a windows tablet at 200$ (with x86) which will probably demolish it's entire Apple+Android competition very fast.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
or a USB mouse.

Bay trail 8" tablets are hitting the market at $300, not a bad price as they stand in my opinion.
[Windows 8 General] mcosmin222:
Yes. 300 is really good price for what you get. Bay trail appears to be quite good (unless intel is vending again).

Too bad vendors in my country will probably inflate the price to like 600$ (they always do this).
[Windows 8 General] garwynn:
Just waiting for stuff to hit the distribution channels and then I'll see what I can get stuff for. So far profit margins for small purchases are low and usually have to twist my rep's arm to at least stay competitive.
[Windows 8 General] frankgreimes:
I still think, their best shot will be going back to the roots of what made them succcesful in the first place, I really believe they should offer the CEO position to Gates again. The guy built this company and he knows how to create a working system.

I think their best shot at the mobile market could have been the Surface Pro x but they blew it with a subpar OS and an overpriced hardware. In terms of marketshare Apple + Android are holding 90 % and both have years of experience. I always thought Blackberry would be the solid #3 but right now they are really in trouble, MS might overtake them but Apple o r Android? No way.

Having so much money, this company should be able to turn the ship around, create a stunning desktop prioritizing Windows 9 OS and only release another mobile OS once they are sure, the thing works. Having this big ugly tiles and so much gestures on an already small phone/tablet screen + a tiny appstore is not going to wow users, so they need to figure out a way how to fill a mobile market niche. A good start would be allowing PC programs to run on their mobile OS not just on the PRO.
[Windows 8 General] e.mote:
>Having so much money, this company should be able to turn the ship around

Having lots of money is an asset, but it also can be a set of handcuffs. MS is a multibillion-dollar company. It got that way by having high margins, and that is what investors have come to expect. The easiest way to get more share for its new products is to lower prices (to wit: Surface, Windows, Office), but MS can't/won't do that, because investors would revolt.

Here's an easy one: How to get more Metro apps developed? We all agree that that is the lynchpin for Win (Metro)'s future, and thereby MS' future. One simple solution that MS can do right now is to cut its take of apps revenue from 30% to 0%. That would be a huge incentive for devs to jump on the good ship lollipop. But it won't happen, because MS is still stuck in its high-margin mentality.

As said, it will take more desperation, and at this point MS is merely worried, not desperate. My reading is that the new guy, whoever s/he may be, won't rock the boat. MS will ride with the integration effort for the next couple of years.

The problem isn't specific to MS. Market-leading incumbents all face the same problem: how to preserve their margins in face of challengers pushing margins lower. In the history of business, there've been very few instances where the strategy of keeping margins high has succeeded.

Look at Apple. It's facing the same problem with decreasing shares of its iPad & iPhone. If the 5C is an indication, Apple is also trying to preserve its margins, and forgo share. But Apple is in a much better position than MS, since it has always positioned itself as a "premium" company, and has a cadre of loyal userbase to support it. MS has virtually no share in mobile, has never been known for premium, and yet it's trying to follow a strategy that Apple itself has trouble with.

About 8.1's no "upgrade" pricing: If you want 8.1 and don't already have 8, you either buy a new box, or pay $120/200 for a standalone copy. The reason for this is pretty clear: MS will eventually kill off OS upgrades between major versions, ie point upgrades will be available to boxes with the same Win version. MS' "devices & services" strategy implies that OS is a bounded component to the device, and won't be sold separately.
[Windows 8 General] SixSixSevenSeven:
Thats a null point. if you wanted to go from vista to 7 you did the exact same thing, and XP to vista and 2000 to XP....

Microsoft do more than apple to get developers. Apple also take a 30% cut. But apple dont offer dreamspark, MSDN subscriptions or bizspark. Microsoft don't just offer these facilities though, they full on throw them at people. If I want a windows 8 CD, all I have to do is go into the reception area in the newton building at uni, ask at reception, present my student ID and I get a complete install disk (not upgrade disk), they also get 8.1 disks (have done since RTM day) but have run out of stock. Where do they come from? Truck sent by microsoft. I do alot of work in visual studio 2010 pro, is it a pirated copy? nope. Did I pay for it? nope. Dreamspark ftw. My Windows server 2012 datacentre disk, dreamspark. I even have 10% off of the microsoft surface RT, pro and apparently the voucher should cover the surface 2 and pro 2, also applies to the bundles with keyboard.

Oh, money weighs big corporations down big time :P Corporation has money, yeah its not going to be doing anything totally drastic anytime soon.