yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
[MENTION=3996566]vectron[/MENTION] -As far as Omate/Forum, I'll leave it at this. The device has promise.

Skipping to your question. App development is so far from firmware development you may as well consider it another universe. I tune/tweak/mod firmware in my sleep but ask me to make a "Hello World" app and I'm hosed. That being said, the Developer edition, without full source, is primarily an app developer device. Now regarding firmware from Omate? Nobody I know has received anything except what you would expect a Tier 3 technician to have which is full access flashing tools.

[MENTION=319086]Zuber[/MENTION] - It's all good. About the moderator thing, I was supposed to be more development section anyways but not my problem any more. Now as far as going back, probably not. After fighting for answers for the backers for almost two months, I see no reason to after whats happened. If I do visit the forum again it will be to do kang checks and that about it.

[MENTION=1478148]ClearD[/MENTION] - Just a heads up. No FFC cert yet, no response on unlocked bootloader, no response on custom recovery.
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
Just another point on the FCC debate: some quick research reveals that the FCC was indeed affected by the shutdown.

Despite being privately managed, like the post office, it is not considered a vital service and thus was not issuing any certifications during that time.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
The delay is understandable as far as Omate is concerned. It was out of their control and I will give them that. They still should not have said they had it when they didn't. Figured they would have learned the first time.
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
I think they vastly underestimated the U.S. market in general.
[Ornate TrueSmart] alabak2002:
I think they underestimate too much things. First, and most important in my opinion, is that one user that is going to getting a device like te Truesmart, paying good money in advance for it, is probably the sort of guy that will go to G+, Twitter, Lifeinvader and so asking for answers and push F5 expecting them to appear. Not having them is really disappointing.

Having been witness of the KS campaign behaviour, whith official post every few hours, and seeing now that they seem to hide from an imaginary angered mob, is really dishearting.

I would like them to post pictures of the manufacturing process, the packing of a thousand TSs, or wathever. I just want to hear the hum of the machines, but hear only the cartoonish sound of crickets.
[Ornate TrueSmart] vectron:
I still want to repeat something I have mentioned in one of the previous posts. Omate backers got SPOILED lol!!! Have you guys seen or participated in any other KS or IGG campaigns, backing complicated electronic devices? I would say on average those are delayed by 6months to anywhere up to a year. Anybody checked comments and delivery schedule of Agent or Vachen smartwatches? Or Embrace+ smartbracelet? I do have to admit Omate set some very high expectations and had very aggressive KS campaign which made everybody believe everything going to be executed on a dot. But sh!t happens outside of people's control. I think they should have worded some of the promises in a different way so others wouldn't take it as "set in stone". But either way, even before their product is actually released, I feel they are on a good track record already. Don't you think?

Btw, I'm in no way associated with Omate, just trying to diffuse the tension ;)
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
On more than one occasion that they have either given "zero data" responses, lied or given half truths on important issues. Knowing that, I have to say the updates, PR and marketing are fluff and until backers actually receive their TS the "shipping soon" is just that. So I have to say no.
[Ornate TrueSmart] sm753:
I think people need to understand or at least be aware of the fact that you've had more interaction with Omate than the "average" backer. Your cynicism is completely understandable. Myself, I'm somewhere in the middle.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
I wasn't even going into the behind the scenes stuff but yes I did have more interaction with them than the "average backer". Hopefully they can get on track for the retail release as that will be their last big chance to "hit it out of the park".
[Ornate TrueSmart] |SavageD|:
I knew this delay would happen. Doesn't mean i hate omate or anything, they never stated that the delivery date was set in stone or anything. Their disappearance since the creation of the forum was a big indication that something was amiss. I still look forward to seeing the final product, but this delay was a huge bummer. :(
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
I think if we can find devices with similar chipsets, cooking roms will be easier.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
There a number of them already. The problem is getting source for any of them and fixing the source it to make it work if you do find it. I know I've been trying since the campaign started and haven't had much luck.
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
That seems to be the consensus.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Zuber:
Probably a dumb question, but...

What are hardware manufacturers (like MediaTek) actually gain by deliberately not making code or at least blobs with explanations available for all to see ?

I'm trying to see how releasing the info helps competitors for example. We are talking about sharing the knowledge right, not relinquishing copyright etc.
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
GPL requires them to release kernel and software source. They aren't required to release the blobs.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
I just noticed something about the box label. "HSPA 7.2MBPS" This will make it one of the slowest MTK6572 devices on the market. Hell, this will even make it slower than a three year old Desire HD.

(also trying to pull firmware for another MTK based device as there is a rumor that MediaTek adds NDA/proprietary headers to files covered by GPL)
[Ornate TrueSmart] Zuber:
Yes, but that wasn't really my question...

My question was more, what do they gain by not readily providing this stuff, Or loose by doing so as it were ?

I'm assuming it would be quite a modest effort to provide it, as they already have and use it, so why not willingly share it anyway and then take advantage of anything others 3rd parties/volunteers come up with ?
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
Because money.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
MediaTek doesn't even adhere to GPL most of the time. I'm also still trying to verify it but on Chinese and Russian forums it's been said the Mediatek even puts NDAs in the headers of GPL protected files in direct violation of GPL.

No source release

Advantage- Complete control over the code and who gets their hands on it which protects them against competitors (not really but they like to think that). Control the code and you can charge whatever you want.

Disadvantage- Loss of independent developers as a resource for fixes and improvements (independents are dumb anyways or they would have been hired by somebody by now)

Source release

Advantage - Use of independent developers as a resource for fixes and improvements (even if this means stealing work)

Disadvantage - Difficult to track who has their code which means even their competitors have access (if a competitor really wants it they will either reverse engineer it or "acquire it" anyways)

Granted this is a simplification but it's not as jaded as it may appear. In comparison, the major OEMs have all realized to some degree that working with the development community is a big plus which turns into greater profits. It expands users base, can reduce solution times for issues and folks will actually buy a particular device simply because of dev support or dev suggestion.

Now about distribution of source. It's not that hard really. The best solution would be a git hub so devs can submit fixes and improvements for approval. Now the Omate forum mod suggestion (right before I left) that you simply email Omate with the bug/fix is rather naive and has numerous issues for anything more than a simple edit.
[Ornate TrueSmart] aeron16:
Full agreed. I have no issues with the delays etc but as mentioned on KS comments as well, they could have posted some updates on KS as well. I was digging on twitter etc to get crumbs of info lol
[Ornate TrueSmart] arnzzz:
What's up? Are omate giving us the silent treatment lol.

Did i hear someone say they are delaying shipment? Or is this what omate are being silent about?

Sent from my Omate Truesmart (in my dreams)
[Ornate TrueSmart] vectron:
They posted update #52 on their KS page yesterday.
[Ornate TrueSmart] arnzzz:
[MENTION=3996566]vectron[/MENTION]. Yes I just saw it :( they haven't contacted me yet about about my watch. Have they contracted anyone here?

Sent from my Omate Truesmart (in my dreams)
[Ornate TrueSmart] alabak2002:
That reads:

- Small changes in the watch (new waterproof speaker, enhanced strap and metal clasp, retail box)

- No USB charging clip as seen on KS campaign, but USB charging dock as seen on last updates

More important:

- October batch starts shipping in early November

- November batch ships in November

- All backers will be contacted individually to confirm their pledge package

- USA shipments are on hold until we've received FCC approval any day now

On twitter, I got this from Laurent Lepen:

[MENTION=259102]lle[/MENTION]pen [MENTION=5417971]Omatetruesmart[/MENTION] So, what other goodies are coming out of the tooling factory? (I want to have a look at how the Omate is built)
[MENTION=313481]alabak2002[/MENTION] [MENTION=5417971]Omatetruesmart[/MENTION] we will share more videos of how the TrueSmart is built next week

...It's something...
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
You can thank all the impatient people for that. Omate has been prioritizing shipment over updates so that the whiners will whine less... and surprise they're still whining.
[Ornate TrueSmart] sm753:
Yeah pretty much. People whining about this and that and not getting that shipment "on time" (whatever on time means for KS).

Personally I will be traveling the first 2nd-3rd week of November so I made sure mine would be shipped with the December shipments. Instead of opting for the early October edition and hoping to get it before I leave. Then again I'm a cynic.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
Totally off topic.

:DThis one has my name on it.:D

(it's the white one BTW)

Back on topic.

I'm fine with the delay as I understand the HW issues need to be addressed. Any other issues aside the only additional delays I see is parts shipping is held up or the replacements have flaws. Hope that neither happens and they can ship it out and meet their new shipping date as I know many can't wait to get their new toy.
[Ornate TrueSmart] sm753:
Let us know how that one is after you've had some time to play with it. Which watch is that? I know you posted that several pages ago.
[Ornate TrueSmart] mghtymse007:
Does anyone know an approx of how many total pre-orders do they have?
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
Vapirius AX2 Comet (a.k.a. EC-309). I'll be doing a review for them as well as some dev stuff.
[Ornate TrueSmart] alabak2002:
I agree. I don't want to see something like the horrible moire on the Pebble lens, just to get my watch a month earlier (Pebble... that teached me verything I need about waiting for something from KS).
[Ornate TrueSmart] BBowermaster:
Oh my god, how did you get the advance "AI Watch" so early!?! :laugh:
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
ROTFLMAO

(edit)

KitKat- No mention or reference to wearables in any official documentation or support for them in the SDK. Unless this was an error on Google's part it adds another 6-8 months to the wait.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
I am still watching the official forum. Looks like the mods are at it again. Wonder if that will change when they realize the those "not essential" devs are the only way anybody with a TS is getting Google Services for at least the next 6 months. Half tempted to post over there. But only half tempted.
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
Don't bother. I'm done over there as well. I didn't even care to read any responses. Firmware groupers are the only reason android has progressed this far.

In tired of zealous mods acting as if every relevant discussion must be quarantined before it scares the normal users.
[Ornate TrueSmart] gerhardo:
On the good side, the mods are enthusiastic

On the bad....

Even if Omate has subcontracted all development, the silence is getting strange. Len Pen has publicly stated that he would like to CM on the Omate, he seem to be smart enough to understand that this will not happen automatically.
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
I have to be honest when I say I don't think they have the slightest clue how development works.
[Ornate TrueSmart] Stu|:
The mods over there don't care about firmware development, they are ignorant of the impact the dev community has on a devices software life cycle despite it being brought up more than once.

That's a real shame, and without a mod which has a clue it will only get worse. Xda will be a better place for it anyway.
[Ornate TrueSmart] speedyink:
'Nuff said right there.
[Ornate TrueSmart] ClearD:
Not to be overconfident, but we've got this. :)
[Ornate TrueSmart] Lokifish Marz:
The only way we would be overconfident is if they ship us bootloader locked, stock recovery, unrooted Dev units, a.k.a regular units. Otherwise I agree, we got this.
[Ornate TrueSmart] thompsos:
Where there's XDA, there's a way!
[Ornate TrueSmart] markyboy81:
I've seen videos of the simvalley Pearl smatwatch appearing to run Google play and all the services, and confirmation that the Truesmart can do the same. So is the issue that the Truesmart won't officially support Google play and services or that they won't work? Because if it's the former, as I suspect it is, this is surely less of an issue?
[Ornate TrueSmart] Zuber:
Just officially at this stage, as in won't be shipped with. Lots of videos showing Omate team also using Google Services...
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
Hi Christos, please don't come gumming up xda with your propaganda machine.

Signed,

XDA
[Ornate TrueSmart] ClearD:
Thanks for taking the time to write. We're mostly only interested in a few things over on this side at the present time, and I'm sure you are still interested in these as well, but I'm also sure you either don't have the answers we need or can't provide them due to your listed reasons. Basically, all we really want to know is if the bootloader is (or can be) unlocked, if fastboot will be available, when will firmware images be available, will it come with a custom recovery, and if it can be easily rooted.

At least the last one, I can do myself, and make it easy for everyone else, but it would be crazy easy if it's unlockable. But as I said, you probably don't yet know the answers to those questions, and that is ok for now.

Those of us that are here that will be developing roms for the device need to know these sort of things so we know what to expect, so I hope Omate can shed some light for us sooner rather than later (meaning before my device arrives on my doorstep). :)

Also, your signature cracks me up. That was my first android phone and my first installed custom rom myself. I loved LeeDroid. He was the inspiration for me to begin developing my own.
[Ornate TrueSmart] alabak2002:
I read Christos post twice and, even if I don't know the facts for sure, I'm moved to think he is being sincere here.

I was moderator of a mailing list for years, and know what a dirty "job" can that be. Being (unpaid *my guess*) moderator on a forum for a commercial product, trying to give the users the best service, even if the source tends to be unresponsive (call it lazy, too busy or "don't really know yet") must be even harder.

Of course there is other sort of forum mod, the one that doesn't really give a damn, but loves the "power" the position gives. I was reading Christos posts as long the KS campaign was on and don't think that is his case.

I would hope from him to tell his contacts in Omate the public opinion on their product is in danger. They must avoid the mistakes of other sucessful KS campaigns damaged by their own success (Pebble delays and Ouya multiple mistakes come to my mind)

Once again, I give all my confidence to XDA when it comes to rooting, ROMs, and tweaking OS. We must be patient for a while. But time will come when we can apply some pressure on Omate, and make them remember that KS backers are not customers but investors. Customers must be cared; Investors, even more.

PS: "General forums ‹ News & Announcements ‹ Progress Update" section on official forum is a sad joke. Last post there is dated OCT 5th
[Ornate TrueSmart] chrisvor:
We have asked Omate about the above (not in so much detail if I recall correctly) and only just recently I asked our contact in Omate, who is not a developer, to ask a member of the Omate Development team to join us on the forum, so that they can directly participate in the discussions/requests.

I have not heard back from them yet, and I suspect there is a reason for that, further to the "too busy" excuse. I think they cannot say certain things before the product is out in the hands of people. I think I can understand why. I am not an Omate employee, and I don't have the way to "pressure" Omate for anything, other than convey our requests through our contact point... Unfortunately....

I have a feeling that this will not happen... Not before the device arrives on your doorstep. But I don't see why this is such a necessity. Is it a rally who is going to develop the first rom? I think this is a community where everybody benefits from everybody's work. Does it really matter if you learn about these things before or after delivery?

Yes I am a very early custom-rom *USER*, LeeDroid was the first "MAGNIFICENT" rom I tried, it was the last of a series of ROMS I tried on my Desire back then. I still have the Desire by the way, now running the CM build :) Not my main phone though... Yeah don't call me names, but I switched to <ducks head down> iPhone, due to the need to develop some apps for it, and stayed there.... I think now it's time to switch back :)

Take care

Christos

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

Thank you for your comment, I am speaking from the heart here my friend, me and my fellow mods have been trying really hard to keep the balance in the forum, as, like you say, we simply do not have the answers to the hot questions... I truly and fully understand the eagerness for "light in the darkness we all are", but I (and we) simply cannot help any further than we already do.

Yes it is a very "strange" position to be in, especially WITHOUT a product to test things on myself and find out things.... Almost everything said in the forum is based on assumptions and speculations. Many times even coming from us the moderators..... And yes, we are unpaid... Simply chosen by Omate as we have shown an honest and "excited" interest by helping out newbies at the KS comment section. And all of us feel very honoured to be chosen to be there.

I can assure you that this is not the case, neither for myself, nor for any other of the moderators currently on the forum.

I assure you, we have done this MANY times.... And they still don't come out to say the things you and I would like to hear. I'm sure there is a reason for that. And I'm also sure the reason is not because they'll say something we won't like, but rather, can't say the things we'd like :)

I couldn't agree more !

I'll check this out :) I don't go to each thread, just the ones that have activity... and this one seems that it doesn't :)

Take care,

Christos
[Ornate TrueSmart] ClearD:
Because I can develop a windows GUI one click root app that installs the google services and play store without the physical watch, as long as I know these things beforehand and have it ready to go when people get their devices. ;)
[Ornate TrueSmart] chrisvor:
The first batch of Oct Dev devices will already be rooted.... As far as Google Play & Services, maybe you won't need the GUI ;) At least for the first dev batch... Then you'll have the actual device (Edit: and the info that cannot be released before the first shipment) to develop your GUI :) (Provided you are an Oct Dev backer, that is... :) )

Cheers :)

Christos
[Ornate TrueSmart] alabak2002:
As I've said before, I've been wandering on FB, Twitter and G+ to keep the monster fed. The official forum is disappinting (no offense intended) because it's, you know "official". The KS updates are not on that post, nor are the FB and Twitter posts (busy October, that of Mr. [MENTION=259102]lle[/MENTION]pen)

What useful hings I learned there:

-Laurent Lepen is so thin, he looks almost funny when dressed for business. He has a TS, and I do not.

-Their marketing chick is a hot asian girl. She also has a TS. I still don't

-Their #startupgirl (wth is that exactly?) is a blonde beauty. Also has a TS.

-They all should review their personal FB privacy settings

And now I feel like a stalker

PS: I'm just a user and am pissed by the silence from Omate and supposed stance on ROM developing (and all other silences). I think I fully understand Lokifish Marz.

---------- Post added 2nd November 2013 at 12:05 AM ---------- Previous post was 1st November 2013 at 11:59 PM ----------

Since we're not customers, and we are not "buying" a TS, but applying for "developing units", I don't see why the secrecy is needed. Since almost all pictures showing running TS already hint the market will be there (although not officially supported), I already expected to see TS to have the market from day one. One way or another. If you go for a dev unit, you MUST know the basics.
[Ornate TrueSmart] ClearD:
My unit won't be an october unit, because I went for more RAM. Hence my desire to know beforehand. :)
[Ornate TrueSmart] speedyink:
RAM was available in all the batches, I got an October batch with 1GB RAM. It was the 8GB internal storage that had to wait until December.
[Ornate TrueSmart] ClearD:
Ah, ok. I believe I still had one of the later batches, either way. For some reason, I thought RAM made it automatically the later batch, but I wasn't worried either way lol. Thanks for the clarification!
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
I have a developer edition coming to me soon with the ram upgrade.
[Ornate TrueSmart] speedyink:
I wouldn't be surprised, the October ones filled up quickly, and if I recall when you said you got permission (:p) they were sold out by then.
[Ornate TrueSmart] chrisvor:
It's not "secrecy" with the meaning of the word... It's more like "company can't officially say due to agreements".... Once the units are out, we WILL know not only the basics, but the whole story :) The only "minus" is that we have to wait until we get our unit on our wrist... not before...

Isn't it the same with all products that are "announced" but not released yet? I mean, how many rumours flooded the internet regarding KitKat, Nexus5, Samsung Gear.... And still flooding the net about the Google watch.... Google/Samsung/LG did not release any official information until the units were actually in the market...

I totally understand the need for info, I am eager to learn everything too... Even though I sound like I know many things that you don't, I don't really... I know some but not a lot.... I guess we all have to wait... Not long now :) :)
[Ornate TrueSmart] kuronosan:
My sentiments exactly. I think the device has incredible potential but I'd be lying at this point if I said I feel valued as a customer.