yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] open1your1eyes0:
Due to the nature of this lockdown even if we have an early unlock without root/recovery we have no way on flashing it onto the device. There is a chance that dd command doesn't work on VRUAME7 build from what I've heard, but we need a tester who kept root via Voodoo to check that for us. If dd doesn't work from the OS then recovery is our only hope (after root of course).
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Dubbsy:
People would have to be seriously dumb to watch this thread, go through all the steps to get their phone re-rooted or unlocked, and then still take the next OTA without question. Those people deserve locked phones. :good:
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] bfmetcalf:
God I wish I had root, id test anything for you guys.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] markwebb:
I am also now curious about the Dev Edition since it has been on backorder. If and when stock re-appears, will it have the same original build or a newer build? We need to confirm from those who are waiting for the backorder to be fulfilled to confirm the build number once they receive their shipment.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] hallstevenson:
They could, but they could also risk losing all of it if someone figures something out and doesn't wait ! ;)
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] MrKleen1:
I would hope that everyone that had the phone before the ota already had it unlocked.

I'm sorry for saying this... (No I'm not), but anyone that was unlocked and took the ota deserves to be stuck.

By now we should all be smart enough to never accept an official ota update.

My son is in the Coast Guard and I have been having him delay the update till I can get him to a computer. He has been out to sea. I just got a call from him last night so hopefully I can help him get this done today.

Never accept an ota update. And if you do, simply plan on being screwed.

I hope this doesn't completely ruin this phone. I came from the Gnex and I will probably never make this mistake again.

Luckily most are already unlocked.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Hondrongo:
So who is more the culprit here, Verizon or Samsung? Hope that does not sound like a stupid question.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Dubbsy:
These have pretty much been true for everything android I've ever messed with. I never had a nexus phone though so they may be different.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] jorceshaman:
I have root but not the new update. If someone can let me know how to get the update WITH wifi and audio and everything working and still have my root, I'll do some experiments for them. I refuse to accept anything until I come here to see whether I'm screwed or not doing it.

From what I see, the rooted roms of ME7 are lacking some functionality. Unless I'm misunderstanding the information.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Dubbsy:
Logic would say Verizon, because Samsung didn't lock all carriers. Samsung only really cares that you bought their phone. Verizon is the one that doesn't want you messing with things.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] thedeveloper1:
Yesterday I chatted with a representative from Samsung. From her view, she said that it is the carrier's fault (Verizon) for setting these problems. I am attempting to contact Verizon with more info
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Hondrongo:
Kind of what I thought, but I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to the inner workings of this stuff.

Thanks.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Ryno77:
I'm sure this is a dumb question but what is "dd"?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] jpolzner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_(Unix)
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] bfmetcalf:
Dd is a *nix tool that copies data block for block off of memory, also refered to as "disk destroyer" by some folks because it will overwrite whatever is in its way. It will even clone entire disks with multiple partitions.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] hallstevenson:
Let me tell you ahead of time what Verizon will tell you: Samsung did it !

It's true too .... Samsung did it when they were spec'd to do so by Verizon. Samsung and HTC both provide phones to other providers that are easily rooted or at least have unlocked bootloaders, but none (other than "Developer" models) go to Verizon. At the same time, Samsung could a) leak a workaround to their latest lock-down or b) make it semi-difficult to crack (not almost impossible but not a piece of cake either). Either of these could be the case with the latest update on the S4 too. It's only been what, two weeks ?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] dorioo:
So Verizon hires them to do one thing and Samsung should release a leak that undermines what they were hired and paid to do?

Sorry, it's Verizon fault.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
It's pretty easy to determine the issue here. Carriers don't like consumer phones that they subsidize to be unlockable as people do stupid things to unlocked phones and then demand warranty replacement. We know this. BUT, at the same time, VZW isn't even friendly to the BYOD crowd. Who here bought the VZW S4 GPE? No? Couldn't find that version on the play store? Yea, no kidding. That's not Samsung or Google's fault. That's squarely on VZW. A stock android phone with none of our bloatware? OMGZ PONIES!!! We can't allow it! And so...they didn't.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] obstinate1:
What about those that just bought the phone and didnt know connecting to wifi would start the auto update process. We deserve to be stuck?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
Agreed, but better yet, I think that Google shold stand up and say something. Think about it, Google encourages development, heck even the chromebooks have a developer mode that you can switch to easily and then boot another OS if you want. They need to license Android in a way that it cannot legally be shipped on a device that does not have a developer mode. Then companies can lock down the device's user mode all they want, but as soon as someone flips over to developer mode, it's a personal choice which would void the warranty.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] jcase:
That would completely and utterly destroy the Android ecosystem. It would be much less free, and greatly discourage a lot of contributions. Less models would be released, carriers would move to devices they have more control over. Even when warranties are voided, people still game the system and try to return/replace them.

It would be bad as a whole to mandate such.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] dobo84:
I would be OK If Verizon offered a unlock code in exchange for a warranty void.... just give me control of what I paid for
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] hallstevenson:
What part of "Samsung did it when they were spec'd to do so by Verizon" do you interpret to indicate I'm not blaming Verizon ultimately ?

As for Samsung releasing a leak, they can do it discretely enough and as far as anyone is concerned, whoever they give it to can claim all credit. I'm guessing that Samsung didn't sign a contract that they'd come up with an absolutely un-breakable lock. They both know that someday it could be cracked.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
But they have an obligation to attempt to fix it going forward. Such that Moto did with the RAZR HD/M unlock exploit. They can't fix the phones that were unlocked during the time the exploit worked, but, they patched it so future phones can't be unlocked. Samsung would have to do the same thing. And they're doing so by blacklisting insecure bootloaders on previous phones. Moral of the story...once you get freedom with a hack or exploit or whatever, never give it up by taking a carrier sanctioned update. Now, those that didn't know, sure, it sucks. Those that have to get a warranty replacement, sucks for them, too. But even if Samsung slyly leaked a way to unlock it, they'd be obligated by their carrier contract to patch it in the next update.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
I could see that in a way. But then let's say a carrier like Verizon said okay, we're going to all but stop carrying Android devices because we can't control them.... then I'd guess a fairly large number of their customers would stick their fingers up in the air and go to another carrier, so ultimately that'd be a ridiculous business decision for them.

Not to mention, if they quit fighting it so hard, they'd GAIN customers. People don't like being told no; that's basic psychology. Enterprise users like stability and support. Consumers mostly like customization -- be it to whatever degree. Not saying that Verizon has a bad business model because somehow they climbed to the top of the carrier list, but as a business, if any of your customers hate you, they are going to start looking for a way out. Now that T-Mobile has Jump, Verizon needs to step up their game and come up with something "for the people" in a hurry because I feel like people are going to start jumping ship (perhaps why they called it Jump? lol). And when they do, and T-Mobile gains capital to improve their coverage, down goes Verizon. Now would probably be a good time to buy stock in T-Mobile :p

But this is all hypothetical. Look at Apple vs. Google though... I know a lot of people who were all about Apple until they discovered that Google=freedom. The fact that there is an entire scripting API for GApps tells you that.

I don't know, most of the talk on this thread is all just speculation and opinion, but that's mine. I know it would cause some certain issues, but I think that a solution could be found to make both parties happy.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
I challenge the assertion that if VZW stopped carrying android that customers would leave en masse. I'll give you the excuse almost all of them use now..."I'd leave but they have the best network so I'm stuck with them." Just because the phone architecture changes doesn't mean the excuse that they have the "best network" goes away. A lot of them would switch to iDevices if push came to shove. And you wonder why VZW can get away with the stuff they do.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
I mean even with the warranty/insurance thing... People are always going to find a way around something. Do you mean to tell me that nobody's ever commited fraud on their home/auto insurance policies? It happens every day. It's like the saying about locking your car doors. All it does is keep honest people honest. If I lived it a bad neighborhood and got sick of replacing my windows, I'd stop locking my car. Sure the other option is to hide around the corner with your shotgun, but that only makes you vulnerable when the theives figure out where you're hiding. Then what? You bring your friends, they bring their friends, you bring yours, they bring theirs... See what I'm getting at? It's cat and mouse. If you lock it, someone will unlock it. Okay, so why not just leave it unlocked in the first place and save everyone involved a lot of resources? I guess because it creates jobs or something :eek:

---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

I do agree to an extent. They have got a lot of people by the balls there, but I know I'd leave, and of all my friends, family, classmates, and colleagues, I personally know without the slightest doubt a lot of people who would do the same.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] funnyperson1:
I don't think Verizon would see a noticeable increase in customers by opening up their devices. The average user in the US buys their subsidized phone, uses it stock for two years, then gets a new one. We are a very very small minority and Verizon doesn't give a crap about us. They added 941,000 customers in the last quarter...I think they will stick to their current path.

T-Mobile has great prices, and I love the device freedom, but they simple do not have the coverage to compete unless you live in a metropolitan area.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
I've already taken the first step to do so, personally. Ordered my S4 GPE and when it arrives early next week I'm gone from VZW. I don't see them improving fro a customer stand point so I'm taking my business elsewhere. Has NO impact on them whatsoever and they couldn't care less but this is what we have to do if we care about freedom. The GPE is MINE and I can do what I want to it. The carrier will have no control over it and is just providing a service. Not loading it up with bloatware, locking my bootloader, telling me I can't have root, etc. I honestly feel bad for the VZW S4 owners...to have such a great phone be so shackled by the carrier. UGH.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
Well I didn't mean they'd shut down every other carrier. Just saying that someone who was shopping carriers who had an interest in this stuff wouldn't be offput by the fact that they wouldn't be able to customize their device. That was a bit of a blanket statement I guess. So you're right, probably not enough to be "noticeable" to them, but I do believe in the principle regardless.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] MrKleen1:
Delay the update. Then root and unlock. Done.

But if it's something you wanted to do you should never wait till it's an emergency.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] jcase:
Would more than cause just issues, it would take an OS that is under a true open license, and essentially closes it. Software developers would loose the freedom that the apache license gives them. I'd be personally offended that I contributed to an open project that became less open after the fact.

Verizon has such a huge market for two reasons, one their business grade services (tmobile cant touch it), and two their wide coverage (tmobile cant touch it). They also allow OEMs to sell developer models of devices, which fit the communities needs.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
I guess.... But that still doesn't make me feel any better about being so limited. Like I said, I believe there's a solution that would make all parties happy (and when I say happy, the word happy does not describe my attitude towards having to pay $650 for the phone).

And I do agree that T-Mobile can't touch them. I just switched from T-Mobile to Verizon specifically because of the coverage. I'm just saying that I'm already regretting that decision and that if they did something like limit or stop carrying Android devices, I'd go back in a heartbeat. I do think T-Mobile is going to spike with thier new business model though.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
You mean UP FRONT for a phone. I'm sorry, but, people do NOT understand what subsidized means. You're still paying full retail price for that phone you get for a "bargain" of 200 bucks...it's just built into the 2 year contract prices you are forced to sign. And then you're locked in for 2 years. Buying it outright gives you more freedom than just an unlocked device....it gives you more freedom with the carrier as you can leave whenever you want. People are funny about cost...if something is more expensive but spread out over two years it's seen as a better deal than an up front lower cost. To each their own.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] open1your1eyes0:
Unfortunately if you buy it at full price the hidden subsidy cost still doesn't go away, so essentially you are saving money by using the upgrade price and 2 year contract extension (assuming you are okay with that of course).
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] pstgh:
Big BAD Red

Ya know- Verizon needs to get its head out of its .....assume for a minute these are our phones! Pretend we are the customers!! If we want administrative rights on our phones, get the .....hello VERIZON- note that we are not going to hold you responsible for messing up the "experience" you would otherwise prefer we have with our own damn phones~!~!!!!

Can you tell that I'm frustrated with big bad red or what?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
No, I absolutely do know what subsidized means. But if I pay the $650 up front, my bill doesn't decrease by $20 a month, so if I want the good coverage and the modding freedom then I'm essentially being charged twice for the phone (err... like 1.74x). That's extortion to me.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Surge1223:
No matter what the fact they still include vznavigator in their phones is more than enough justification for any action taken against them. No one likes to be vznavigated.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
^^^ Ha! ikr? get with the times, vzw!
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
That's true of VZW. Hopefully that'll change some day. Cause that's truly just evil. They build in the subsidy pricing of the phone into the plans and those that BYOD don't get a break and essentially buy the phone twice. The only good part in that scenario is no ETF so if you decide to switch you can do so at any time.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Erisnoob:
So curious, how does apple get away with no preloaded vzw apps and how does apple control the update cycle for their product and not the carrier? Their updates roll out at once for all carriers available OTA or via iTunes. Seriously baffled on this one. The only vzw "bloat" I see on the iphone is under settings for tethering...and it is just the check to see what plan you are on not an installed app. I know apple has their own bloat that cannot be deleted. Line of thought is if apple can tell vzw no, why cant other manufacturers?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
I 100% agree. It's a complete greed move on VZW's part.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] jcase:
Its more like a retainer bonus.

"You pay a fraction of the real cost of the device, and if you stay with us X months, we will cover the rest. If not, you owe us early termination fees to help cover the cost of the discounted device".
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
I think I know how we can get this unlocked... I think we need to take that bounty and pay someone like Bruce Willis or Michael Westen to go have a "talk" with the people at the VZW headquarters lol. They will get a car thrown at them if they do not oblige.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Cruiserdude:
One of my concerns is that people continue to say we are such a small and insignificant minority, and that is why our needs are not considered in Verizon's business model. Yet if that is the case, why do they insist that their phone's bootloaders are locked down? I can see the issue of device security that comes with root, as someone can view unencrypted data easily regardless of screen locks and such if the phone is rooted, not to mention hide malicious apps in /system. But if it's encrypted, even a different rom or kernel won't show you the encryption key, it will simply create a new one that's incompatible with the existing encrypted data. So how does an unlocked bootloader make the phone any less secure than a rooted one?

My point is everyone says that we are an insignificant minority, and yet Verizon insists on the bootloaders being locked, which only protects them from the even smaller minority of fraudulent users who break their devices because they can't read, then get a warranty replacement. Seems like we ARE significant to their bottom line, they just know many of us are stuck due to our coverage requirements.

A developer edition or warranty voiding unlock method isn't satisfactory either. Yes, I accept full responsibility for something I break with software because I can't read. But I don't accept responsibility for a broken headphone jack, a bad screen, broken buttons, severe reception issues, or other such failures, provided they happen with normal use. Many of these phones will experience hardware issues over their lifespan that are not related to software tinkering, and they should still be covered. If you buy a new PC and put Ubuntu on it, then a few months later the screen dies or the touchpad stops working, you can still expect warranty support, provided you put Windows back on it. I expect the same with phones. If I can Odin back to stock and still have the issue, I expect to be able to send it in for replacement. I shouldn't have to roll the dice on the hardware side because I want to play with the software.

And let's not get into how much of a ripoff it is to charge us full price when we're already paying off the subsidy whether we use it or not. Even if Verizon did switch to cheaper plans for non subsidized users, they'd still make you switch to a new plan, screwing many of us over another way. If I wish to keep Unlimited, keep a warranty, and not pay twice for my phone, I see an unlock as the only solution.

Unless of course T Mobile steps up their coverage and we could all kick Verizon to the curb.

:rolleyes:
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] hallstevenson:
The flaw in your thinking is that a "lot" of Verizon customers care about the OS that their phone runs. They don't. Ask the typical VZW customer with an Android device what kind of phone they have and many will answer, "a Droid". Same goes with iPhone customers - hardly any can tell you it runs "iOS". Their response would be, "I dunno, it's Apple".

People who root their phones are a tiny, tiny minority of their customers. Remember the mass exodus that was predicted to happen when they started taking away unlimited data ? Yeah, I don't either....
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
Another point to add to that is that if dev editions of the S4 are currently on a huge backorder and sold out in a very short anount of time, then apparently VZW underestimated the size of its dev/mod community.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
How so? VZW doesn't sell the dev edition. Samsung does. So it would appear Samsung didn't anticipate demand. VZW has nothing to do with that phone.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] Schoat333:
Yes they do. I bet it still comes with VZW bloat, and VZW still controls the release of updates to it.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
Sure, but, they themselves don't sell the device. It's only available on Samsung's website directly. It does ship with the same OS as the consumer version....bloat and all. But once you unlock it you can get rid of that. LOL
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
Ehh... I don't really agree with that, at least in my experience/observations. I really don't know many people who don't own their device because they're partial to the OS it's running. While they may not know anything about the OS, I think most of them know the difference well enough to know which they like better and why. Unless we're talking about elderly people; my grandmother probably has no clue, but my mother definitely does. I do know a few people who aren't too partial to either but it's because they are technical people and know enough about both to have resons for thinking that way.

---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

Well my bad there, but either way, my point was that apparently the size of this community was underestimated. Unless that was an intentional move.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] thedeveloper1:
I just talked to a rep from Verizon and they said that they will forward the unlocked boot loader issue to the Lead Development Team. They might post the official method of unlocking it.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] SamuriHL:
I suspect Samsung went on historical data from the S3 dev edition which is invalid data. The consumer version was unlocked before the dev edition was even released. Hell I was going to buy a dev edition last July but they didn't release it til what, September? By then I had talked myself out of it. But you have to think the consumer version getting a true unlock killed the dev edition sales. I bet they figured similar sales for the S4 dev edition.

---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------

Um......color me skeptical on that claim. "Reps" say quite a bit, unfortunately.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S 4] lolzadam:
Why would they patch up the Loki exploit so quickly and then turn around and release an official method (if they would do that)? I'm not being condescending, that's an honest question. Unless there was another critical patch in there or some specific reason they didn't want it exploited in THAT manner, I don't get why they would do that.