yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Okay. To address the issue of the screenshot/infraction (it wasn't a ban [MENTION=4309996]SimonTS[/MENTION]), the difference is context. Opening a new and pointless thread adressing everyone as *****es is different to me saying take your *****ing elsewhere. Fair enough I could have probably chosen my words more carefully but hey, since when have I ever been known for that. :rolleyes:

Just my opinion and if a fellow moderator disagrees then I'll happily accept that.
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
You deserve the same punishment for the same word, period... Probably harsher since you're supposed to set an example as a mod

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] prototype7:
Context matters. I can write a horrible, abusive post using everyday words, and someone else can use the same words and write a nice, happy story. Should we both get banned?
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
It's OK, every bit of this being documented and brought over their heads

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] veeman:
No it doesn't. The moderator still chooses what punishment is given. It's just a If Person X does or says XXXXX, the recommended punishment is XXXXXX. But in a chart form that is easily accessible by everyone so everyone knows where to draw the line.

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

Not really. It's too open for interpretation by moderators atm.
[Off-topic] freakboy13:
Ill take verbal floggings from Archer over a robot anyday. The robot thing?

Bad idea.

If we had robots running/modding xda this thread itself wouldnt even be possible.

No, xda needs the human touch.

No ones perfect, mod/user we.

Archer thanks for the positive & constructive recent input.

sent from my T.A.R.T.I.S

(Time And Relative Tarts In Space)
[Off-topic] veeman:
I think we've already established that there won't be robots. That was just an exaggerated example.
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Dude that would just make it confusing and illogical.
[Off-topic] Archer:
Moderators have rules too. We have a list of guidelines which helps us deal with offenders. However, there are times when things are done differently, and you just have to accept that. If we believe a situation deserves a more than usual strict response then that's what happens. If it turns out that a moderator was in the wrong then a complaint to the MC will raise that and the issue WILL be dealt with, in a totally unbiased manner.

Just because we don't explain everything we do, doesn't mean you can demand we start hiring robots. That's utterly ridiculous.

That's why we're here - it's part of our job. We HAVE to use judgement and I don't understand what problem you have understanding that. It's very simple to understand really.

If you have a problem with a moderator decision then there is something that you can do about it. That is there to safeguard against moderators making mistakes.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Please explain why. IMO, it would make things a lot more clear.
[Off-topic] Clark Joseph Kent:
I see we are still full of ideas, for Moderation. Interesting.....
[Off-topic] cascabel:
but some forum rules do require interpretations, and that's where human error is most apparent both from mods AND users.

would it be possible to make the rules more clear and/or specific? just a thought. :)
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Ya seriously. It is just a website and the punishments don't include death row well unless... I won't go their lol... just learn from your mistakes and report any bullying.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Nowhere did I say anything about hiring robots... I was just continuing what prototype was saying about robots. :/

Also I don't know how to explain what I've already said further. I think I've explained it best as I can. No robots. No scripts. No programs. Just a moderator and a chart for punishments etc. so there's a little less room for interpretation of the rules.
[Off-topic] cascabel:
i just realized i worded that poorly. :silly: i'm a bit busy so i hope everyone gets what i'm trying to say.
[Off-topic] Archer:
There's no need. If you're unsure about something you're about to do then ask first. If you get punished for something that you believe is not a rule break then ask why.

I regularly get "can I create this thread" and "where should I create this thread" type of PMs from people who just don't want to break the rules or mess up the forum. I also get people sending me PMs asking why they were warned or infracted for something. That's called conversation and it's what happens when normal people ask "why?" instead of waiting for months, moaning and complaining about mods, until a thread like this comes along and they come in shouting at mods.

I've lost count of how many times I've said in this very thread that if you're unhappy with a moderator decision that you should raise it to the moderator committee, where it will be dealt with impartially and in an unbiased manner by people that had nothing to do with the event in question.

That is the answer to this whole thread, but every time I post it it gets ignored.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Users change. Moderators not so much.

It's easier to change moderator behavior than the behavior of people posting.
[Off-topic] LoopDoGG79:
How would these revised rules be done? Who would have the final say these are the new rules? How will we ever determine that it's is detailed enough? Making an all encompassing set of rules will be a never ending endeavor. No one will ever agree that I'll be detailed enough.
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Would this be a long enough list of offences
[Off-topic] Archer:
Okay we'll forget the stupid robots then :)

I don't know how to explain further either.

We have rules that are guidelines.

If you are perceived to have broken them then action is taken.

If you think the judgement was wrong then inform the MC.

We NEED the judgement there in the first place. If you can't see that then there is no helping you. We also need a separate layer above the moderators to look at them from time to time because of the fact that we use our judgement. That's the MC and we have that. That is there to allow us to use our judgement, but deal with it if we make mistakes.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Not revision. Just a clarification of the rules.
[Off-topic] Clark Joseph Kent:
Noted....
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Their already is a clarification of rules in every topic
[Off-topic] veeman:
Has there been a system on XDA that was not similar to the one currently in use. IDK if you can safely say that you need it without having tried one of the alternate systems. Also I need to sleep, I'll come back to this in the morning :)
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Those 2 statements contradict eachother...
[Off-topic] Archer:
I don't see what that has to do with anything. We have a system in place currently and it works. The problem is that people are not using it correctly, and that's either the moderators, the members, or a mixture of the two.

If you don't use our current system correctly then don't talk about changing it, as you have no experience to back up the suggestion.

I've already answered this thread's question, and stated it several times, and also stated previously that it's been stated several times.

Not one single thing has been said about it, so I'm going to leave this thread here for a while, but unless something changes drastically then I'll close it at some point over the next day with my answer. There's too much flame/troll space in here and not enough actual discussion.
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Good idea. The same things are just being stated over and over
[Off-topic] veeman:
No they don't. I'll clarify for you.

Users come and go. There are a lot of us. Therefore it's harder to control behavior. (Which is why we have moderators in the first place)

Moderators are usually long term members and there are a fewer number of them. They're chosen because they can abide by a set of rules. Therefore it's easier for them to change their behavior.

Hope that makes sense.
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
No, they really don't. It's easier to change something that's going to be around for awhile (mods) then to try and change something you don't know will be here the next day (users).

I honestly don't think the mods do a bad job, they're just not consistent, which is what a site this size needs, consistency.

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Ok I see

---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

Agree. I think they are doing just fine under power of human reason
[Off-topic] veeman:
Ok, I'm done explaining this. Read what flastnoles said in above post. That's the message I'm trying to get across.
[Off-topic] I r o n M a n:
EXACTLY.

A post may be found offensive by one moderator and that person could receive an infraction; yet that same post may be treated as just another post by a different moderator.

So how are we supposed to know if something is right or wrong?

Sent from my octa-core, badboy S4 using the new Tapatalk 4 Beta

Wanna discover some awesome new apps? Check this out - http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2322687
[Off-topic] Archer:
I'm not answering the same thing over and over again with no response. I've read everything that's been posted, and all I see in the post you mention is that it's easier for mods to change than users. What the hell has that got to do with anything that I've said.

You have not responded once to my explanation of how to deal with this type of issue. No-one has.

It's clear and it's easy. Moderators have superiors too.
[Off-topic] I r o n M a n:
I'd like to know your opinion on the query I have raised in my earlier post.

Thanks.

Sent from my octa-core, badboy S4 using the new Tapatalk 4 Beta

Wanna discover some awesome new apps? Check this out - http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2322687
[Off-topic] veeman:
That was not a response to you. I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know what your explanation was.
[Off-topic] Archer:
I'll multi-reply as it's pretty much the same answer.

Raise any issues with moderator actions to the MC. They are impartial and unbiased and the matter will not be dealt with by the moderator involved.

I've said this a LOT of times in this thread and it IS the answer to every question so far.
[Off-topic] the_scotsman:
Common sense is all that's needed. You don't really want spoon fed do you?
[Off-topic] undercover:
Well, since I've pointed out use of profanity by a mod in a derogatory way and there came no answer to that or no visible action whatsoever and the mentioned post is still available for everyone to read i assume it is fine to use swearwords. Don't tell me that I have to go about it via report button while loads of mods here read every post.

What was initial name of this thread? Double standards Iirc?

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] zelendel:
If something was said to the mod about it you can trust it would not have been done in public. Now it has been made clear swearing has no place here.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Zel, post no 459. Tell me this is fair. From our side it looks like it was just left at that.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
If i used the same word in the same context it was used by the mod i would receive an infraction at the very least, not just have "something said" to me. Double standards.

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
The person you're talking about is a user not a mod.
[Off-topic] zelendel:
Ok to be honest so what if that is how it looks from your side. To be honest anything done between mods is no ones business. Just like when we send you an infraction. It is not talked about outside of the person doing it and the mod. If something was said to him about it then that is between him and the person that spoke to him about it. It concerns no one else. Not you, not me, not anyone else.

Now I hope it is understood that no swearing is permitted in the forums.

Ok didnt see the retired. Either way it is still the same. If someone said something to him it concerns no one else.
[Off-topic] undercover:
The post with profanity is STILL THERE! Which sends a message that it's Ok for mod to swear but not for the user.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Still there because you guys were originally concerned that posts would be deleted left right and centre. Plenty of posts containing "profanity" (from both sides) remain.

Again, person in question is not a mod.
[Off-topic] zelendel:
He is right the person is not a mod and it is left there until this thread is closed. This way everything is there for all to see.

Now people want to talk about double standards. Are there double standards? Yes. But not in the way you think. Mods, RT, RC, and RD are held to a higher standard then the rest of the users. We are supposed to lead by example and not take our selves down to the level of the normal user by breaking the rules. If a normal user decides to go off at the mouth he is warned. If a user with a title does it they may get infracted first without a warning. Why? Because they are expected to know better. Not Fair? Who ever told you life was fair was lying to you.
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Well their must be a reason the word "bit%$" is not blacklisted. Just saying professionally ...post#567
[Off-topic] zelendel:
Oh it will be for sure. The filter will be getting an update as it seems that common sense doesnt work.
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Ok sounds good to me. At least 1 good thing came from this thread.
[Off-topic] Archer:
Sorry [MENTION=1140856]zelendel[/MENTION], I didn't see you saying it would stay and I've removed it. I've dealt with it just like I would any other person posting something like that on this forum. That's not because of banter from other members about it - it's because I believe it was the right thing to do. Hell, ask CTM - I've censored him before now :p
[Off-topic] zelendel:
No worries man.

Wayne Tech Nexus
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Nvm its fixed
[Off-topic] Whiskey103:
Now please infract me for it so Conan can ban be again :D

Bypassing the filter the colorful way, let's face it.. I invented it :p
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
Earlier today I was ban for about 30 seconds lol. They must of reviewed me more and realized... lol
[Off-topic] K.A.:
30 seconds? :rolleyes: You counted?
[Off-topic] percy_g2:
OK I have a suggestion to solve the issue which users have with mods unfair actions recently .

Make a community of 3-4 users(no mods) which will listen to users report towards a mod (his actions ,which users thing is not right ).

These 3-4 users will have direct contact with a higher mod(SM or who can take actions against the mods unfair infraction ,warning and ban ) .

Now mods will say we have MC ,don't say this . I have personally seen mods ignoring my reports about an RC because I'am senior member .we have seen lots things recently

In this way we will cut the load of MC and the 3-4users (users community members) will make brief report about the mod's unfair actions and submit it to a SM or whoever can take actions towards any mod(we need someone some from mod's community and user's community) .

moderator's you wanted some suggestions .

You got one and I don't thing this will be hard to implement .
[Off-topic] K.A.:
Then users will have issues with those 3-4 people if their issues are not solved.
[Off-topic] deathnotice01:
Agreed,

Then call them 'biased', 'power hungry', and 'unfit'.

This post is in compliance with the national potato safety regulation.

[Galaxy S 4 LTE]
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Yes, and it worked, as you decided to contribute properly. Nobody got banned, and someone else joined in constructively :)
[Off-topic] percy_g2:
There will be no automated response and at least its worth a try or give some other suggestion or add on .
[Off-topic] a.cid:
And that would just make them "moderators", wouldn't it?

We'd still essentially be running around the same tree.

Just because things aren't out in the public, doesn't mean its not dealt with ;)
[Off-topic] K.A.:
Where does automated response come into here? You're basically asking to create a mod-within-users group which will not work. Now people have problems with moderators because they are the ones that deal with the problems but then when these 3-4 people take a complaint from a user and it doesn't get solved, obviously the user blames the 3-4 members first. Also, some may question why this superiority among users too.. I think it's a good idea, but it wont work on a long term basis.
[Off-topic] deathnotice01:
It does and it also doesn't help resove issues further.

To be honest, all the reports i send to moderators. 90% of them are resolved according to what i think was fit. 10% was probably due to lack of merit or evidences.

This post is in compliance with the national potato safety regulation.

[Galaxy S 4 LTE]
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
To address a query from earlier about making definitive lists of offences and a chart of the consequences.

I'm totally against this. Why? Because it won't work. The only reason to request this is if you want to push the boundaries as much as possible, but have something to point to to protect yourself from a ban.

On xda, just like in real life, that's not how it works. When the judge sentences you, he is given a report of your past convictions. He will use that when considering the time you will serve.

It works the same here. If something is your first ever wrongdoing, is it right to deal with that user in exactly the same way as someone with 20+ prior offences?

If it's someone's first time messing up, there is more possibility of a little chat working, and stopping the issue. If it's your 23rd time you've broken the rules, a little chat won't cut the mustard.

One other thing to consider - if a user is issued a final warning, and then commits a transgression, albeit one which would not be an immediate ban for someone with clean record... A final warning is final... They will be banned.

That might look unfair to others who think, "that's not fair, he only did a tiny bit of trolling", but is it likely that user will have disclosed to you he was on his final final warning and was clearly told the next time would be his last?

A list can't always work. Anyway the rules are actually quite long winded and spelt out... If it was up to me, they would say:

1. Respect other users. Treat people with the respect they deserve and you should receive it in return.

2. Respect staff. While they might not make the decision you agree with, they made it for a good reason. By all means query it, but do so respectfully and remember they cannot give you details of another users circumstances.

3. Don't be stupid. Don't do anything illegal, immature, daft, or idiotic. Don't encourage other people to do these things. Don't try to cause harm, do good.

And that's it... So I think the current rules are fairly specific tbh :)
[Off-topic] percy_g2:
I'am not saying make them mods or give them power etc .

Just a community who will look into deep as users have complained about mods unfair actions .

Now users will say my issue is not solved ,etc but if they get full brief report it will be better .

I have experienced some unfair actions in past so just share some suggestions , i'am not against mod community . Mods asked for suggestion I gave them .

[MENTION=3200478]Woody[/MENTION] its not about the OT .(you action was fine towards me)
[Off-topic] K.A.:
From what I've read, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong, it isn't the rules itself that's the problem, it's the interpretation and inconsistent implementation of them that's the problem.
[Off-topic] percy_g2:
Can you tell me where I have stated make those users as mod or give them power , I just wanted a community who will listen to users (in past I have experienced some problems,if you didn't its good ).

All I want to say is users will have no reason to complain if they get proper response to there reports in brief (if MC can take that load of brief report then its fine ).
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Exactly.

Also, if these three users just decide to side with "users" all the time, which would happen, this wouldn't be constructive. I know fine well that this group of users would be befriended by those who want more leniency. They'd try to help their friends.

Then when they build enemies they won't help them... And you have an even worse situation than you have right now. As frankly I don't give a hoot about who does X or Y in here, so I can be impartial to it, as it makes no odds to me either way.

But if you have a user who is in OT regularly, with involvement, they will become one sided and try to always back their friend.

As k.a. said, it wouldn't work long term, or indeed short term. And it won't happen, as the system would just become the subject of controversy over who got in, why they were picked, and if they were mature and competent for the job. And yes this would amount to promoting them above moderator level... Which won't happen... They can earn it by showing the qualities needed to become a mod, then senior mod, then onwards.

I suggest people need to review the use of the word user... Everyone here is a user of xda. Including the mods that seem so disliked... They are all users here who came to download new ROMs for their phone. Some were more involved and had qualities that were useful as moderators and they applied to become mods.

This means that mods are users. If you want to try argue, please don't waste the time - each and every one of them approached this site as a beginner, and started with their first post. They're a user.

When you go on a rant against mods, you're ranting against users.

I don't see mods and users as being separate and mutually exclusive groups.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
That's what I was trying to address there.

What I'm saying is that I don't think the issue actually is the interpretation.

People judge the interpretation on rules based on the punitive actions taken...

That's not always accurate, as I explained above, because someone on their final warning will be removed for something that would be a "quiet word in the ear and we'll forgot about it", if it was their first ever offence.

Of course there are some rules you don't get flexibility on, where grotesque violations will result in permanent removal (typically gratuitous threats to fellow users, extreme racism or homophobic posts, or other types of abuse, or breaking the law)

Don't ask for clarity on them, as they are things which are illegal if you did in the offline world. And people should be obeying the law at all times on xda anyway.
[Off-topic] K.A.:
Read pulser's post below yours. All you need to know.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
You said you wanted them to be in a position supervising moderators and deciding if their actions were meeting their personal preferences.

(you didn't use those words but that's what anyone with experience of these situations knows would happen)

That puts them in a position where they may also themselves feel they can be "above" the rules, or else they would harass or find issues with a moderator who has to deal with them.

As such this idea amounts to an arbitrary promotion of them. And it won't happen, for the reasons I and a number of other users stated earlier.
[Off-topic] K.A.:
Well, the main issue was the sudden bans in OT and because no real clarity was there on why exactly were those people banned. I wasn't there to see what actually happened so I guess I'll leave that upto someone who was here when it happened. :)