yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Off-topic] percy_g2:
Totally agree with you on this.

Now I think all mod's have heard us and they will be more clear with reports/warnings/infractions/ban .

We can close this thread now :confused:

Special thanks to pulser and mod's who replied on the issues :beer:
[Off-topic] SimonTS:
I don't disagree with the rest of your points so I'll not bother commenting them in. However ...

Many times in this thread the point has been made about 'perception' and about what things mean to different people (such as pi**ed meaning "angry", "drunk", or being offensive depending on where you are from).

Drinking in public is illegal in most of the USA, but it is not illegal ANYWHERE in the UK - so it's a matter of perception. An American might decided that a meme of someone swigging from a bottle of JD on a beach is bad because it is against the law, but if the photo was taken in the UK then there is nothing wrong with it. Doesn't mean that the American won't still consider it to be wrong and possibly pick an argument with the person who posted the picture for offending him.

Equally, a Moderator who is American might decide to give an infraction for the picture, but a UK Moderator wouldn't because he sees nothing wrong with it.

I know that a picture of someone drinking is taking this to the extreme, but it is still a perfectly valid example.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Kind of off topic but how long does it usually take for a reply from the moderator committee for a ban appeal?
[Off-topic] the_scotsman:
Mod committee don't handle ban appeals. That's a separate role.
[Off-topic] powerpoint45:
It was originally 1 hr I believe but it was lifted in about 30 sec yes.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Oh, oops. My bad. Does one person usually handle the appeals or is it a group of people?
[Off-topic] dexter93:
I never said that I'm the prime example of discipline pulser. Nor requested a special set of rules for myself and/or the rest of the OT regulars. I'll be the first to admit having done mistakes and being immature. Yes, I have told to people to GTFO of a thread at times (in that specific case, we've had a chat over PMs with that person afterwards explaining him what's going on), but stopped after the friendly reminder thread.

I have stopped posting in OT anyway.. and the thread you're referring to, it's locked. Back when the place was clean, there was a reason for it to exist, now it's just another random thread filling the database with no reason. Heh, people rarily posted in it anyway as of late.

As for the "gtfo" procedure in "group threads", it was merely a maturity test

New guy: Guys you're awesome, I want to join

"Group" member: Sure. But come by later.

New guy: I want to jooooooiin nooooooow!

"Group" member: mind to gtfo? thanks

then is when we'd get the results

case 1:

New guy: Moooooooooooooooood, they told me to gtfo!!111!

case 2:

New guy posts: you guys are full of c***. f**** you. I'm outta here

case 3:

New guy PMs one of the "group members". Then receives an answer saying that he'd just have to come by frequently and get to know people better before being considered part of the "group"

Which one of the 3 cases do you consider to be the most mature? I know it's not fully compliant to the forum rules, but it worked. And some of the people in case 1 and 2 were found to be causing trouble later on in OT..

As for the restrictions.. for start, making the forum available only to senior members would be a step forward.

Regarding the Gli thread, it is not full of trolls. It's just a place to chill, one of the few that remained when the downfall of OT happened. Since the fun factor of OT has been missing for a long time, some "members" might have taken advantage of useless threads opened with ib4l posts and maybe a bunch of memes. No way you can call that trolling, but that's before the reminder thread came.

No "group threads" in OT.. that doesn't surprise me. In fact, if OT is going to stay at it's present state, you might as well kill it with fire
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Uhm... Drinking in public is illegal in some areas of the UK - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_in_public#Scotland :)

I see what you're saying, but at the end of the day, we are dealing with users interacting with each other here, which makes it a bit simpler. The rules are to not troll people. Users being reported for trolling should be VERY RARE. So much so that it's not really coming up often. Likewise with language - surely people have a good enough vocabulary they do not resort to cursing at each other?

In the end, it isn't ever possible to make a fully comprehensive list of "rules", because you cannot possibly pre-empt every single person's actions on the site. Although, the reason people are appointed moderators is because they have good judgement. At the end of the day, the issues being caused are trolling (posting deliberately in a manner to incite others to respond negatively), or being abusive towards other users or staff.

There's no tolerance for abuse. If everyone bears these things in mind, it might help. No tolerance also means don't jump on the bandwagon, if you see it, hit report and move on.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
I think we all want to see OT improve. What I'm showing you here is that this isn't a problem caused by the "<100 post users". This is a problem caused by the >1000 post users, who think they should be able to act with impunity in OT. That's not on. OT will remain, but remember that this is part of XDA, and XDA's core rules apply.

Treat others with respect, and act in a mature way. Every time you act immaturely, you are contributing to the "downfall" of OT.
[Off-topic] SimonTS:
OK, I missed the particular reference to Glasgow. Anywhere else in the UK, Edinburgh, Newquay, Southampton etc, where people normally claim it is illegal to drink in public it actually isn't. They local council can create a by-law prohibiting drinking in public, but this only actually means that the police can tell you to stop drinking in public and can confiscate your drink from you - they have no other legal powers beyond the standard ones if you are drunk and disorderly or creating a public nuisance. Even in Glasgow it is only a by-law, it just happens to be enforced in a slightly stricter fashion, and although you get an on-the-spot fine and your drink confiscated, there is no criminal record involved with it.
[Off-topic] roofrider:
I would like to know that too, i'm assuming they are someone above S-mods?
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
It is one person and they are an administrator.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Who isn't involved in the moderating part of it :)
[Off-topic] coolsandie:
This document -> Forum Admins and Moderators pretty much sums up everything one would like to know the roles of different staffs on XDA, I guess. Cheers. ;)
[Off-topic] DesertHawk:
Hang on. If this thread is about swearing why do we have swearing smilies?

E.g. :flipoff2: and :flipoff:

This is just to show the mods that. Not meaning it offensively just in case
[Off-topic] Babydollll:
^^^ those smiles are a tapatalk feature and not exclusive to XDA
[Off-topic] DesertHawk:
Oh lol. Well they work on XDA App Lol. I always wondered that lol
[Off-topic] Babydollll:
The XDA app is based on tapatalk.
[Off-topic] DesertHawk:
Ah cheers gurl. Okay mods disregard that lol
[Off-topic] SimonTS:
But they could very easily add those character combinations to the swear filter if they wanted.
[Off-topic] Babydollll:
I never said they couldn't. A specific question was asked and I answered it.
[Off-topic] SimonTS:
Not disagreeing :) Not picking an argument with you :) Just stating a fact :) No hard feelings?
[Off-topic] Babydollll:
Nope. :thumbup:
[Off-topic] MiguelHogue:
So I finally read through the whole thread. Both sides have some interesting points.. I haven't been on XDA for too long and usually post in my device fourm or some of the theme threads. As far as OT, I do read a lot of the threads and enjoy some of the reading(and the rest of the material I'm like what in the world) . I hope every goes back to normal and settles. This post really ls just to say I'm glad both sides *seem to understand each other now.

-TeaM VeNuM Like A Boss :flipoff2:

-SoA: Son's of Android™
[Off-topic] roofrider:
Regarding leniency, we are not asking for you to be lenient.

Sorry to be putting myself in mod shoes again and this is not an attack on Mark, just using this as an example.

If it were me i wouldn't have given Sleepy! an official warning for using the word '*****es' in his thread (i understand it is just a warning but still..), instead would've kindly asked him to choose an alternate word if it is found to be not in accordance with the rule book (and he would've obliged) and would've taken it from there as long as the rest of the content in the thread is fine. I might not do the same for a racist personal attack on someone or flaming. Imo it depends on the degree of offence.

A little kindness goes a long way.

We are just asking you to be considerate, reasonable and to be one amongst us. I don't think this is asking for leniency.

I can point out several instances in the past where if the mod had taken a different route things would be so different today.
[Off-topic] c5satellite2:
If XDA is a dev site, why are there even OT threads? In my opinion OT talk should be eliminated. There is one topic here, development. Maybe a good compromise would be to have OT chat rooms? Still allows the social interaction, but doesn't tax the database. Do we really need OT chat documented and searchable? Plenty of social networking sites on the internet already.

And for the moderation, this needs to be addressed as well. There is no consistency from forum to forum as to what is allowed and what isn't.

Just my take on things from what I have seen over the past 8+ years.
[Off-topic] Seraz007:
ummm OT from device forums have been moved here and it isn't allowed now AFAIK

its better than have an OT forum rather than people spamming OT in other threads

common, we all need a place to relax and have fun

Dev threads or any other threads are not that place

i wud go crazy without no OT xD

:)

Sent from my Katana
[Off-topic] :
I would burn down my local tennis court and send the bill to the BBC if the OT was closed.

That's how much rage there'd be if the OT was closed.

Sent from my 3rd (yes, that's right: 3rd) Xperia Z
[Off-topic] KingKongDingDong:
I've followed XDA for ages. If everyone would just act in a respectable manner towards each other, things would be fine, and this thread wouldn't exist.
[Off-topic] roofrider:
Exactly my point.
[Off-topic] Archer:
Keep the trolling out of this thread - period.

He was wrong, yes, but so what. This is a discussion thread, not a measuring contest. If you want people to listen then you have to show a little respect for each other.
[Off-topic] KingKongDingDong:
I know I'm a new member and all, but this is really quite simple, and I feel that I should express my concern. XDA is a place for mobile development, and it has gotten so huge that everyone and their grandma is a member, and with that large userbase comes dissidence (correct spelling?). yes, there are rules, and yes there are consequences for not obeying them, but how has that worked out so far? If people would just use a little reason, and not post for the posting effect, then it would set an example, and things would slowly work themselves out.
[Off-topic] justmpm:
Hi,

Just catching up on this thread. I had a bit of free time, so I took a look at 7 days worth of reported posts from OT and from General....putting a post limit on OT will never, ever work. The "offending user" in most of the RPs from OT has more than 100 posts and setting a post limit of 100 would only cut the RPs by ~30%...to cut the RPs by 50% you would need a post limit of ~250. A 10 post limit barely does anything. The story in General is the opposite...you could block 50% of the RPs by setting a post limit of 4! So there really is no evidence that the problems in OT are caused by the "inexperienced user." Please don't take this to mean that the people in OT are rule breakers...that's not what this means AT ALL!

In fact, I will give you guys major props at being able to diffuse a situation and I have even learned a few "tricks" for handling problems from OT. I think a lot of it has to do with communicating why something is "wrong". I think most of us know when a post is "wrong"...and I am not talking about whether or not they technically violate a rule or whether it can't twisted and turned to make it into something that is OK. Almost all of us know when something is going to start a problem or is going to make a problem worse. Everybody, Mods included, should trust this instinct.... none of us should need a swear filter to tell us when we are swearing, none of us should need a rule telling us not to attack another member, and none of us should need to be told when we are flaming or trolling a thread. For me the xda rules, especially on member conduct are perfect, they allow me to communicate what is expected with out them having to list every possible thing that could be "wrong." If you are pushing the boundaries of the rules, my feeling is that your gut should already be telling you that you are about to make a mistake...if you hit "submit reply" well then, you have to take the consequences.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
But... what are you asking for? You're not asking for lenience... But you're asking for people to be given more leeway and telling us how you'd do it... Looking up the dictionary definition, you are requesting more lenience :)

Mods ARE considerate and reasonable. They should have closed this thread down and put an end to it. But they are reasonable, and didn't. They went much beyond what is even classed as "reasonable"... They're pretty danged considerate, and the fact they want to engage in this discussion shows they are reasonable.

To be "one amongst us" could be interpreted in many ways, but I'll presume you mean to "act like OT", and that's where the problem arises. Mods ain't here to support trolling or rule breaking. When people break rules, there are consequences. I'm afraid if a few people tried to push the boundaries and find out what was OK by "pushing till they get caught", that is only going to get them in trouble.
[Off-topic] KingKongDingDong:
That post probably took 30 minutes to write, proofread, rewrite, and submit. :silly:
[Off-topic] KingKongDingDong:
The more people that rebel, the larger the rebellion will get. Users rebelling will only cause mod actions, which in turn will cause more rebellion. This is a losing battle on both sides, and there will not be a victor. We should all just do what we came here for, and that is mobile development. PERIOD,
[Off-topic] Archer:
Incorrect. If people go too far then they get banned. One of the more unpleasant things moderators have to do is deal with idiots that just want to cause trouble and stir the pot. Eventually those elements cause too much trouble and get banned. If there's enough history of trouble then that ban is permanent. That only happens to people that push it and deserve it. There is no "rebellion", and that would never happen here simply because it's a stupid concept and too many people on this site ARE here for the right reasons.
[Off-topic] roofrider:
And everyone here appreciates the fact that you guys are participating here. But this thread was deleted the first time around it was created (possibly just a few minutes before this one was created), and it is only because we were persistent this thread was let to exist, and the discussion has been civil. See? Leeway you say is bad but it works. Just like how you say short bans work but is unfair in the eyes of the users as it is not the norm. Some of us do try to diffuse the situation like justmpm said. OT is not a cesspit.

To act like OT? In the sense, come let's troll together? No.

More along the lines of participate and socialise (some do) if time permits as this is OT and anywhere else this would be wrong. I'm not insisting on it..as it might worsen things sometimes, i meant it in the same way you did when you said mods are users.
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Unfortunately that seems to be part of the problem here. There are some of us who have been around a while and just come here mainly as a user and not a mod to let off a little steam.

Moderator actions from those of us that you guys are used to are generally accepted as there's a certain level of trust established. Sadly it seems that the same actions performed by a mod who might not be so well known around OT can cause tension for whatever reason. I have observed this first hand and it is a bit of an issue.
[Off-topic] KingKongDingDong:
I apologize if my words came off incorrectly. What I was trying to illustrate is that the more people who fight will attract even more people to fight.
[Off-topic] Babydollll:
It's not just that certain mods are new to ot imo....

It's the WAY they go about dealing with things that's the issue (again, imo)
[Off-topic] Archer:
No, it won't. It will attract more trolls to the fight, yes, but most of them will stop once they realise the consequences of their actions. Any "fighting" here is dealt with swiftly and appropriately. Discussions are okay and usually answer issues or prove their weren't any. In reality, fights attract people, yes, but most of them stand round looking at the fighters and rolling their eyes because of the stupidity being exhibited.

Aaaaaand he's gone.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
The WAY in which those who break the rules meet consequences?

I thought we discussed this to the death pretty much... If people are mature and engage their brains before trying to deliberately push the boundaries, that would be fine.

When people break the rules, they cannot then expect to come back and beg to be treated differently... The rules are there for anyone to see. If more people read them, and didn't treat them as something to "push against", would you guys be in this situation?
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Okay I can understand that, we may well be talking about different situations here and if an action is inappropriate you definitely have a valid point. The correct way to deal with that though is just have the conversation with that mod there and then. Most times that doesn't happen.

What I was referring to was a couple if occasions where I've been asked "what would you do here" by a newer mod only for their actions (which might has well have been mine) get publicly called out and drama ensues.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
If that is happening, kindly make me aware of it, as those who set out to pick on "new" mods will not be welcome here. Especially if the mod was simply doing what you said.

THAT is an example of the kind of behaviour that is rife in OT, which won't be tolerated. It's not about being overzealous or anything, it's about dealing with disrespect and people who are frankly taking the proverbial. The above is a perfect example of that. If it happens, the person who does it will leave the site forever...

(and before anyone says, "oh but how can we tell when CTM told the mod what to do", that's the point! You can't! If you need to ask that question, you are admitting you will act differently depending on who it is that asks you to follow the rules. If there is an issue, then it would be apparent that something was not right. If you are having to ask yourself if CTM or another mod "told" them a suggested action, then you are in fact making an admission that you, yourself are part of the problem here)

Just something to consider :)
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
This is a mature outlook.

I am not convinced by the "let's add a new mod from OT to moderate OT"...

XDA has very, very high standards from mods. We're not about to go adding mods to any forum randomly. Why? Because we don't know they're any good. We also don't take applications for mods outside of the regular moderator application system, which requires background checks etc.

At the end of the day, as you said, the problem isn't OT, or XDA... So how would picking an arbitrary member (no offence to whoever it was you suggested, but I have never heard of him before... you could have equally picked another member) advance this, when as you very honestly said, the issue is everyone...

Then, unfortunately... You lost every single shred of credibility I saw in your post. I was actually really impressed. But then you went and spoiled it all by saying something stupid, like; (yes yes, song references for the win!)

This categorically will NOT help. This aims to make a two-tiered system of "us" and "them", between OT regulars and everyone else. Is that going to help AT ALL? The users causing issues and getting in bother are those with >100 posts. What good is "zero tolerance" on "noobs", when about 90% of the issues are being caused by "non noobs".

Credibility of this post, meet the window...

Unfortunately this is why it's not possible to just randomly go and add people as mods - while I know you mean well, this won't work. It will cause more harm in the long term. There is no special treatment for people who have no life outside of OT and use it as a nicotine substitute. Just follow the rules, whether you have 1 post, or 11,000 posts... Is it honestly that difficult? That way, we don't need "zero tolerance" for anyone. As you wanted zero tolerance for "noobs", and earlier everyone agreed they want equality... How about we do that? Zero tolerance for everyone? From now on?

I don't think that's the way forwards either. People want more leniency, and also equality. You cannot ask for both and then say "give noobs zero tolerance". That just doesn't work.

Shame, it was a good post until you totally ruined it :/
[Off-topic] Archer:
While I see your point and agree with some of the sentiment, I'm still on the side of the fence that believes this recent "trouble" has been stirred by trouble makers and their inability to deal with consequences (as well as a few cloth-eared people that believe their mates when they say they were banned unfairly.)

None of us are perfect - we all make mistakes, which is why I agree with the sentiment. However, there was one thing you mentioned that needs to be addressed very clearly (it seems), again...

New members here ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. It's the regulars with an incorrect sense of entitlement, thinking that this is their forum and they should be able to decide who can post and who can't. All the take about "you can only post here if you've got > 100 posts" (replace that with any number you like) is just utter nonsense.

We've already said the the offending user in the majority of reports coming from OT are senior members, not new members. In fact, the majority of RPs coming from OT about new members are complaining that they shouldn't be posting here as they have less than 10 posts and it's not allowed, which is utterly ridiculous.

Anyway, nice post, but difficult to read. It's not a stacking competition :p

Edit: What he said ^^
[Off-topic] darkshadow246:
I completely agree that <10 posts guys don't cause any problem

They just post a few things and are then gone

Putting a post limit won't help at all

Just pointless

sent from my katana slicing muffin
[Off-topic] roofrider:
You clearly hate those who post in OT, don't be so judgmental.
[Off-topic] Archer:
You clearly cherry picked that one sentence out of a whole post, just to flame.

I've already asked for trolls to stay away so please decide to troll no more or stay out of the discussion.