yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
As an observation from a few people's posts over the last few days...

I think a lot of people want to be able to "demand" the unbanning of their friend. Or to request and be given full circumstantial details on it, so they can then create threads here and debate the validity of the ban, and ultimately "demand" the unbanning of their friend.

That's not how it works. We already explained the issues of confidentiality. I notice nobody ever wants to actually respond to that really, as I imagine it's not what they want to hear. Likewise with "demanding" people be unbanned. It doesn't work.

Would you be successful in trying to get your friend "unbanned" from a shopping mall, after he is banned for shoplifting on 3 occasions and attacking or fighting security staff?

It's identical. There is an appeals process for the banned to go through. They must do it respectfully, since all XDA staff must be treated in a respectful way. In response, XDA staff are respectful to users. If someone is abusive or rude, they have foregone their right to appeal by wasting it on their abuse.

I think that this is one of the key underlying issues, as it's something I've seen raised a few times, and which I've replied to, and which never seems to be commented upon. I know it's not what people want to hear, but there it is :)
[Off-topic] undercover:
Argh, whiskey, why the grudge? You just happened the one to do it. And again.... Seriously? And we are talking about immaturity of users?

In any other thread I'd take that as a joke in a heartbeat. But here, even if it is a joke, it's just absolutely inappropriate.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand

---------- Post added at 10:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 PM ----------

It looks like everyone has a different perception of the "problem". I guess we are back to the square one, unfortunately. I don't see where we can go from here. Maybe, just maybe, as the thread died down and most of the steam has been let out we just forget about all that and carry on? This thread seems to be a good punchbag.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] SimonTS:
Thanks for clearing up the ban/infraction, but the rest of my comment stands on its own - is common sense going to be applied, or is OT going to become a totally sterile, humourless and pointless place?
[Off-topic] Archer:
Did you even read my post? It sounds like you skimmed it and read "Quasi was banned. You can't be his friend now"

Please try and calm the attacking down. We're trying to have a conversation in here and that really doesn't help.
[Off-topic] Prawesome:
I didn't write what the members told me or anything mate.. I wrote the reasons which were stated in the official notice(or whatever you guys call it) xda gave when they were banned/warned.

Also, thanks for being the only level-headed guy here who actually wants to talk with everyone here...
[Off-topic] Archer:
Good to have you with us Joe :)
[Off-topic] Ichigo:
But Sleepy's context was not of an offending one. It was used as a greeting. Both of their contexts were not offending, yet only Sleepy received a warning.
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
Nobody is talking about quasi, taking about [MENTION=4186558]roofrider[/MENTION], banned for quoting quasi's post...

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
I wish I could answer that.... common sense needs to be applied by both sides here. :(
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
More so by one specific newer mod :rolleyes::rolleyes:

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] roofrider:
Amen to that.
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Well you've already tagged mike and svetius so I wouldn't worry about that.

Nobody here is able to permanently erase anything so don't worry about that either.
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
And i just want to say the only reason i reported you for the "*****ing" was because someone else was given a warning for so you should also. I have no problems with you and honestly couldn't care less if you post *****ing in all your posts, but fair is fair ;)

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] Android Pizza:
Veeman AND me.

Sent from my Motorola Atrix HD using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2
[Off-topic] veeman:
You're taking screenshots?
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
Of course, just in case someone comes in and decides to start deleting posts

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] Sleepy!:
Thank you. That was the reason I tagged you in the OP. All of this drama needs to be resolved.

Since the last 2 months or so, there's been a perception of unreasonable behaviour on the part of both users and moderators.

This has caused a lot of drama, all of which I wanted documented in this thread, so that we can resolve the issues, once and for all.
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
That's OK, i will do it anyways just to make sure they actually see it

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] SimonTS:
I'm not going to disagee with you. Unfortunately, the more that certain people try to restrict activities that are safe, fun and perfectly normal, the more that certain other people will try to rebel - I get the impression that some Mods aren't parents and so don't know how kids react to rules that they can't see the point in :D

I refer you to my point above as well.
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Its comments like this that serve only to further any tensions.
[Off-topic] roofrider:
I don't want to bring it, out of respect for that someone(mod) who unbanned me and i'm not doing that here. I'm sure ctm is still sticking to his original decision of giving me ban for quoting a post even though i had a clean record. :rolleyes:

He just saw what he wanted to see and not what I meant. :rolleyes:
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
You're right, it's a bit out of line, but get mark in line and you wouldn't have to worry about those comments...

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] jotha:
I hit it more than once, but it didn't work :crying:. I love that immature thanks-hitting when I think somebody hit the nail.

Oops, did I give myself away now? :laugh:. Thank god we are in Off-Topic.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Actually, I don't think overzealous moderating is a very big issue. I've only seen it happen a couple times. IMO, It's the lack of transparency in the judgement/punishment process. Also what do you think the bigger picture is?
[Off-topic] orangekid:
Yeah that's been my basic point here.
[Off-topic] undercover:
I said earlier. To sum it up, bad communication between users and mods. We are all here for the same thing, but somehow we found ourselves fighting against each other.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] orangekid:
If you don't think the mods are doing a bad job, why do you want more transparency?

Being banned is not like accidentally stepping in a puddle, you really have to try to get banned for the most part. There should be no question about it, you know when you are getting banned if you're honest with yourself...

edit:

also, that's what the rules are for. If there's a sign saying "if you do THIS you will be forcefully dragged out" do you really need to ask why he got dragged out?
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
For the final time, as I am totally fed up explaining this to people.

There. Will. Not. Be. Public. Discussion. Or. Disclosure. About. Actions. Taken. Against. Individuals. As. This. Is. A. Breach. Of. Confidentiality.

There's nothing we can do about it - it's not something we are setting - it's how it works in life. You can't get this transparency from a bank branch, or a tax office. No respectable company will give you information about someone else.

If a user wants to tell you this information outwith the site, that's up to them. We cannot enter a dialogue about it with anyone except them, for the simple reason given above. Confidentiality.

If anyone wants clarification, they can get it. As [MENTION=3830475]thewadegeek[/MENTION] said above, he has contacted the MC, using the process, and found it works remarkably well. That's more than can be said for many forums. And XDA prides itself in this. This is what we're about.

If someone wants to query a ban or infraction or warning, the process is in place to do so. And they will get an answer. On the condition they act in an appropriate and respectful manner. Like anywhere else, I will not tolerate any mods having to deal with intimidation, threats of violence or any other type of threat, or extreme profanity in the appeals directed at them, as a means of "venting their anger". If someone does that, their appeal is gone, and they will not return. This will not change, this is how life works - go try it out in any shop, mall, or bank, and see if you're welcome back after doing this.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Honestly? Me personally? No I wouldn't particularly want to know that much... if at all...

Because I know fine well he's been up to no good, and with a tiny bit of common sense, I can figure that if he is being forcefully removed, he has assaulted someone, or been abusive or threatening violence.

As someone who doesn't do that, I have no issue, and will happily help them remove him if needed.

So honestly? No. Because I don't go about shoplifting, beating people up, being abusive to them, being threatening, or otherwise acting wrongly.
[Off-topic] veeman:
I didn't say they weren't doing a bad job. That's not what zealous means. Overzealous means very enthusiastic or diligent. There have been some ridiculous bans here. (I'll get off that topic because that's just beating the dead horse)

Transparency is important in all governments and XDA is somewhat like a government. I'll pull a quote from John Adams. “Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right and a desire to know.” Of course we've gone over how XDA is not "free" but this quote says that a healthy government is an open government that allows the people to find what they are seeking. A lot of the trust issues that members have with the moderators can be appeased with transparency.
[Off-topic] mark manning:
Xda is completely transparent when it is about your own account.
[Off-topic] veeman:
I absolutely did not mean release information about individuals to the public.

Also, I sent in an appeal for my ban and I was not given a response.
[Off-topic] LoopDoGG79:
I agree with the lack of response when it comes to appealing a ban. I was courteous and respectful when I tried to appeal a ban. It would of been nice if the courtesy of a response of who ever was overseeing my appeal could of given back. A simple, "I reviewed your appeal, but after consideration, your ban will remain in place." It could be an auto response. Knowing that someone actually took my appeal into consideration could go a long way. After reading up on this thread, i know now that someone does review them, but, with no response, doubt will linger.As for the rules, don't every forum have a thread by MikeChannon that state the forum rules?
[Off-topic] veeman:
Well, okay yeah probably. But when I was banned, I was given a 1 line response as to why I was banned. On the ban page, could a more descriptive reason be given/required (except maybe spammers or something) and also the moderator that banned you be listed? I wanted a clarification but I didn't know who to ask as I did not know who banned me.

I know it's asking more from the moderators but it's difficult being banned with no detailed reason or any response from the ban appeal.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Did your ban expire in a very short period of time after it was issued, during which you sent the appeal? Remember the appeals are part of the site wide appeals, so come under our target 48hour turnaround. This accounts for timezones and backlog if there are other appeals needing processed that arrived first.

If a ban will expire within a very short time, the appeal would be fruitless to handle through that process, as by the time there is an outcome, it would be expired anyway.

In that case you would be best to talk to the MC. To try and process appeals quickly and avoid this, expired ban appeals aren't looked at in this part of the process, as it would delay the valid ones like your own that need seen.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Ah I see. Yes, it was a 24hr ban.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Please see my reply above explaining how appeals work. Short bans by their nature are hard to appeal.

Just like a 2 day prison sentence is hard to appeal. Due to the actual logistics... One day notice would be needed for the court. And the next day would be the hearing... And you would be released anyway that day at lunch time...

There are responses to ban appeals, but if the ban has expired by then, there isn't a response as the time is needed more by those who are banned, as I'm sure you'd agree?

Mike's post is a site wide announcement, which appears at the top of every forum, above every single thread. So it stands out better than a thread hopefully there :)
[Off-topic] Android Pizza:
I completely agree with everything you said here, especially the more descriptive "ban homepage".

Sent from my Motorola Atrix HD using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Ah ok.

Taking into account time zones, it could be 12 to 18 hours before anyone is able to review the appeals. If you're not at the very top, it is probably physically impossible for any investigation before the ban is over. As such I think you might agree it's impractical to reply to those...

Yes I'm sure we could, but it would significantly delay those appeals for bans that won't expire in a few hours. Which I imagine is going to cause more frustration for users. It's a balancing act, but it's necessary to ensure that appeals are dealt with totally separately from the actual moderation.

And everyone has day jobs and families, but they do what they can
[Off-topic] undercover:
Sorry guys, but it sounds like you are getting ready for the next ban? Tbh no one needs that sort of information, if it's available ban becomes "normal". We don't want that, it should be a deterrent. However, clear communication when banned should be present at all times.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
A 1 line response is probably about right. The field is limited in length, as it isn't intended for use in writing lengthy technical essays or discussions.

Also, I personally think it makes more sense the ban reason is factual and to the point. It is important it's easy to understand for people who may not speak English as their first language.

I am not ever going to support detailing automatically the mod that issued the ban.

Why? Well... You haven't seen the death threats in the ban appeals pile. I have, and for this reason no information will be given about the moderator issuing the ban as part of the site software. Threats not just to moderators but their families. And many forums get this. They usually just forward it to law enforcement in their area and move on...

I'm not suggesting people here are doing that - far from it. But it happens on the site, and as such I will never ever condone something which exposes mods identities to the user who has been banned. It just cannot happen for common sense reasons.

The information is available incredibly easily for myself or another admin or senior mod to review. It's not hidden or secret. But as explained above, it can't be put in the message displayed
[Off-topic] mark manning:
As for the part about what mod banned you. That's not going to happen.

Imagine this. So let's say I ban you. You find out it is me from the ban message and think it is for the wrong reasons. You then go to Facebook or gchat and tell 30 friends. I would then receive 30 PMs from people demanding answers and asking for you to be unbanned. The person who deals with the appeals process knows who applied the ban. If from your appeal they feel they need more clarification from the mod they will contact them. The banning mod is left off for protection of them.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
It's them who are on the topic :) (joke btw)

Clear communication is in place. Provided it isn't abusive (absolute zero tolerance, no chances, no warnings), or for a ban which is so short that it isn't possible to review before it has expired.
[Off-topic] LoopDoGG79:
I had three day ban. Considering the time zone differences, I understand. Can a simple auto response system be set in place, in conditions like this? When I report a spammer, or a misplaced thread, i usually get an auto response from the mod handling the report. Just having confirmation I'm not ignored is what we are looking for.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Well, I've been banned for few hours, and i don't think it was justified, bit that's besides the point. I can't remember getting any email about it (reason) or pm so I can see why after its lifted. Some automatic responses should be easy enough to setup I guess?

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] veeman:
Ok, I see why it's like that now. That actually makes perfect sense. Thanks for the replies.

:thumbup:
[Off-topic] undercover:
Gents, can I distract you for a sec before it becomes a full blown war?

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=306366

I could use report button but Imho that needs immediate response and i know for sure mods will read this right away.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
I don't think automatically generated responses will help to be honest...

They will just increase complaints "the system" is mechanised and inhuman.

Currently it's a human system. We implemented the automated report status messages as I thought it would be an idea to reduce workload of something mods already did (to an extent, as they never sent "looking into it" messages obviously, or they'd never actually do anything)

During the ban, undercover, the reason is shown to you when you open the site.

All an auto response can do really is say "Hi. You sent a ban appeal. This is an automated message. Please don't reply to this message". Generation of custom messages is just beyond the scope of the system. If someone is such a regular customer of the ban appeals system, I respectfully suggest they are clearly doing something wrong...

I'm not convinced the automated response would help unless I'm missing something?
[Off-topic] undercover:
Understand. Email with the same reason would be helpful. I was on Tapatalk and didn't think of going to the full website (virgin ban, so wasn't all that experienced :)).

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] LoopDoGG79:
Your points make alot sense. I could see where it can lead to more problems. Believe me, I've learned my lesson. I know the rules and how to behave in a manner not to get banned. No plans on being a ban regular. :)
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Hmm...

Unfortunately we don't test the Tapatalk experience for banning... It's not something we design for, from a ban appeals perspective.

The browser will show you the reason, and the information on appeals.

I really think sending the same by email would just cause more abuse mail to be received. And every abuse email we receive is another one needing archived, reported if necessary, and then blacklisted from sending further emails.

If you are on the site and get banned, you know the reason. To get it by email would just rub salt into the wound and people will reply and let out some choice words... And they then need dealt with as an abuser.

If we had bad intentions we would encourage users to reply like that, to goad them into being permanently removed. But we don't and for that reason it's not wise to try rubbing the message in again. Especially since non critical emails can be delayed sometimes for a few minutes while sending... Just enough to remind someone who went off to do something else... And get them in more bother...

Though Tapatalk is another story... I have a feeling people sometimes don't pay as much attention when using it, or perhaps ignore warnings etc. Tapatalk is really an interface for viewing the site on the go. I'd not recommend it as your primary means of using xda, as you lose out on custom functionality like ban appeals etc
[Off-topic] undercover:
Very true, but I happen to be on the go most of the time, so this is my primary method of browsing xda. It looks like in my case I'd do with email, but in general xda lose out by implementing it. Reasonable.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Awesome :)

Remember short bans are intended to get people to cool off, go do something else, and come back with a clean head.

I could probably write a rather lengthy book on the theory behind managing online communities (publishers feel free to get in touch, no offers yet to my liking, lmao)

You are a success of the xda "justice" system according to what you said there. You know the rules and you're going to behave and not be banned. And that's good! That's the idea. It's to encourage reflection and to cool off situations. And I hope you'll not end up in that situation again, as you've learned here and understand more about it all :)
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Ah ok :)

Yup I tend to think things through an awful lot before suggesting them. And I considered all this back when we designed the idea of a formal ban appeal form. While in a few cases it will help, ant kind of autoresponse will lead to more problems realistically :)
[Off-topic] undercover:
Opposite of me... Throwing ideas in and seeing what comes out of it... Never been a good player at chess :)

We have a saying in Russian (I'm sure there is an equivalent in English)

"truth is born in an argument ". I think it works as long as both parties are ready to accept that their position 'might' not be the correct one.

I applaud your patience however. I know we had our share of differences, but your qualities as a leader deserve recognition. That's not to say that I don't disagree on a few things :p

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Unfortunately that approach works for small sites but doesn't scale beyond 2000 members :) chess is easy though - just tip the board over! Heh

I guess there is something in that, although I don't think it is necessary for argument. I would still suggest this thread arose due to immaturity amongst users who wanted to protest at their friend being banned. Whether directly or indirectly, if seems linked. I know it will be denied, but I wasn't born yesterday ;)

Thanks :) well clearly I'd not be doing a good enough job if you had no disagreements... I'm not here to be loved or agreed with or to agree with people :D I just bring up the facts you don't want to hear at that moment in time, which most people would have forgotten long before then...

There's method in my madness, but no madness in my method.