yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Off-topic] freakboy13:
You say I make good post but then bring me down by saying I ruined it?

Was there really A need to insult me?

Why not ask me to explain myself instead.

That comment was unnecessary.

I didnt mean it that way.

Also if you notice I didnt write "noobs"

I wrote newbs, as technically "noobs" is meant as an insult.

I know sometimes my posts are not clear but no need to bring me down.

I got enough things in my life doing that.

I just wanted to help

Im sorry you didnt understand my post I didnt mean to to give senior members mod type powers to change xda around but their own actions.

You totally didnt get that. Sorry thats partially my own fault.

I meant dont just ban. Give senior members a chance to improve themselves via change. Thats what I meant. You can disagree but I think newbs should not have this same policy.

In regards to a new mod for ot:

The ot mods ARE awesome.

They do a great job imo of course.

But sometimes a fresh face albeit a known one, can bring good change.

Its just my opinion again.

I hope I made myself clear.

I know you are a respected mod [MENTION=1698146]pulsar_g2[/MENTION] and an awesome xda member but you didnt havecto leavevthat flaming comment.

Was itcreally prudent to tell me "i ruined my own thread".

Sorry to disapoint you I mean you really brought me down with that it was uncalled for.:(

especially giving the subject of this thread.

I hope you dont take this the wrong way.

I only wanted to help.

Ill just stay out of commenting in this thread I dont want to ruin it.

sent from my T.A.R.T.I.S

(Time And Relative Tarts In Space)
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
It's called humour. If I was judgemental, wouldn't I have hit that button saying "delete forum"? Just saying...

I don't "hate" those who post in OT. I have a dislike for those who have nothing better to do than cause trouble in OT, and deliberately troll others, or do things that waste time of mods.

And there are plenty of those people. People suggested reasonably the idea about restricting users with low post counts from OT. I thought it was a fair idea, then I noticed the facts that the VAST majority of issues were being caused by users who should know better, who don't have a low postcount.

I look at recent suggestions that seem to suggest there are 2 classes of person - "those who are welcome in OT", and "those who are not welcome in OT". The "GTFO" business is included in this. As is the attitude that came out in this thread earlier towards a mod who wasn't "a regular" in OT... Carrying out moderation, following the advice of an "OT regular" mod...

I'm sorry, but the double standards coming from user expectations are really starting to become clear. It seems there is a hardcore group who believe if you're not "always in OT", you are not welcome there. And from there the joke was formed. And I am starting to think from the attitudes in this thread I may not be too far off...

Guys, show me I'm wrong on that, please...
[Off-topic] roofrider:
No.

He clearly stated that "XDA has very, very high standards from mods" and he is an admin, he should know better.

Edit: Only now saw his reply. Also read how freakboy13 felt about that reply. Class.
[Off-topic] Archer:
Can we stick to the topic at hand, rather than trying to better each other? There's a serious discussion taking place here and name calling, finger pointing and childish responses are not required.

Stick to the discussion or stay out. I won't ask again.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
The ***US*** part concerns me - you want to create an "us" and "them", with respect to "new users" and "OT regulars"? At least that's the impression I get from your original statement, and I have highlighted the part indicating this.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
Entirely stand by the statement and have explained above why I said it, including full rationale.

To make an "argument", which is contradicting itself, is ruining what was otherwise a really good post, with very good observations and points.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Guys. With all that talk and time taken away from other more interesting things to do, still nothing has been achieved. Somewhere in the middle jriot and pulser (+a few additional things from dex) have come up with a good strategy. Why is it not being worked on?

I've stepped back from conversation and tried to see it as a third party.

Here are conclusions. To everything users have to say, mods have their own perspective and vice versa. What it looks like though, is the a guy (user) came to a pub and is trying to change the way things are being done there. Landlord (xda) is keen to have a talk about it but not keen on actually changing the way things are. So all in all its the situation where "you are on my lawn, I'm not going to cut it different to suit both of us".

All I'm saying, so far there has not been anything productive.

Is there really a point in continuing? Or shall we just go back to whatever we were doing and get punished for the misdeeds. In the end of the day, if we don't like it, I'm sure mods will hold the door so it doesn't smack us on the back.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] :
I doubt much will change even if we form a reasonable argument.

As much as I agree that the OT has been degraded and the fun around here has been deeply threatened, it's the mods who have the power to bring about change, and a lot of them don't see it the same as we do.

However, I guess there will always be some fun, some rebellious attitude that drives us on to continue posting here.

The OT is dead, long live the OT.

Sent from my 3rd (yes, that's right: 3rd) Xperia Z
[Off-topic] orangekid:
Through all of this I don't think I've seen a concise description of what the problem actually is, it seems as if the problem being presented keeps changing like that guy's awesome suit in A Scanner Darkly.

What precisely are you wanting to change?

edit:

To clarify, the issue was mod abuse of power, then semantics, then more leniency in OT, then new or different mods in OT, then Pulser's terse reply to a post...
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
The problem? You just quoted it. :rolleyes:
[Off-topic] undercover:
Really? May I ask you to expand on that?

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] undercover:
In fact you summed it up spot on. Problem is that... There is a problem. But it seems no one can objectively point it out.

I personally think it's the whole handling of it by both mods and users. I know it's easy to click infraction /ban button, but I guess it's just as easy to drop a pm like [MENTION=1707123]M_T_M[/MENTION] does. Resolution normally ends up with an apology from an offending party + better relationship. When posts are just blindly disappearing and people get bans with no explanation, it annoys them. That forms another problem, feeling of entitlement by users. Because there are some exceptional mods users are expecting others to go out of their way to do the same. Well, not all mods have same mentality (not necessarily a bad thing). Maybe we just need a happy medium?

All IMO.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
My pleasure....

Once again you have posted something entirely negative that detracts from the valid contributions made by those on both sides. Your posts serves as a wedge in a gap that has been slowly closing and is exactly the type of behaviour which has prevented the resolution you claim to be striving for.

The only difference between this and your previous offerings is that this one is flimsily disguised as something that might, just might, have been reasonable several hundred posts ago. Unfortunately by taking the bait and even responding to your comment I've probably done just as much damage as you....

Or did I misinterpret you? (Rhetorical question kthxbai)
[Off-topic] undercover:
Rhetorical or not, believe me or not, you did misinterpret me, unfortunately. But I guess I'm to blame here, too often I've user posts like that to divert conversation to what I've seen important.

Pulser, I'll come back to you on your post on a minute.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] jotha:
+1

Unfortuntely I can't thank on OT forum...
[Off-topic] undercover:
And that is extremely mature and doesn't promote unhealthy reactions, especially as I've just posted an explanation. *sigh*

Edit. Well spotted :)

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
In which case I apologise. However focusing on the negative aspects over the positive will get us nowhere. I'm sure we can at least agree on that.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Indeed. But that prompted a reply from orangekid which brought a very valid point imho so I don't regret it.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] Archer:
I personally think that every point that's been raised (most of them multiple times by different members) has been answered. I don't see anything unanswered, unless you're referring to the fact that moderators are not transparent in their decisions and actions, so members don't always know the full story.
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
Which in turn led to this

Which is spot on. The only thing I'd add is that it needs to work both ways. As has been said many times before users need to question moderators actions in the right way.

No mod will be annoyed at receiving a PM about an issue looking for a little clarification. We may not disclose every specific detail of a situation but a basic reasoning behind an action usually isn't too much to ask.

Any mod who feels that's not the very least that a user deserves should expect to find my foot lodged in their ass, to be typically blunt about it.

Edit - To summarise, more communication less public bitc... err complaining (from both "sides") is what's needed.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Exactly. What often happens is that user just disappears and no one knows why which in turn kicks of the whole "duck da police" thing. Also (like in my case) even user himself doesn't get any explanation which (I shamefully admit) is enraging (yeah, yeah, it's Internetz but we are somewhat friends anyway, penmates existed as long as the was an alphabet so it not THAT virtual). Maybe assign a thread where users can enquire about it? With an advanced agreement of just getting a vague reason with no further escalation of the question in that thread?

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] flastnoles11:
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one, more communication (not complete transparency) would go a long way.

“It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."” ― David Brin
[Off-topic] orangekid:
Well by saying that we can't isolate the problem but that is certainly is one, I don't see how we can come to an agreement on how to solve this phantom issue (and I am not condescending), because you've just opened the door for anyone here to name what THEY think is The Problem, and your solution is for the members to mature and the mods to chill out is basically a inevitability that needs no human influence. IF the members mature, the mods WILL chill out, it's a tantamount to a scientific fact.

What I see as a contributing factor to whatever the actual issue is here is that you are viewing the moderators and general members as some different race or something. We are just Senior Members or RCs with some added responsibilities for the site. If you look at the post history of most mods, you'll see that most of their posts are just "regular user" posts, with mod type posts scattered therein. Mark Manning for instance has helped so many people in the Nexus 4 forums in a non-mod capacity that it's easy to laugh at any attempt to label him malevolent to any extent...

But until we specifically and precisely spell out what the perceived problem is, there can be no solution.
[Off-topic] undercover:
[MENTION=2178960]pulser_g2[/MENTION]

Where jriot summarised a few things and you added to it. Sorry, couldn't find it, a bit limited atm.

With all due respect, it's you (xda) which keep taking it back to that. Keep in mind i tried to stay unbiased, done my best, and to me it looks like users have a different concern in mind with is overzealous moderating (correct or not, this is not the point now).

It looks like most of the users are too. good.

No no. They SHOULD! Just in a bit more transparent manner and with a tad more communication. I know you guys are busy, but a bit of courtesy, even if party has offended badly, goes a long way.
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
I'm not so sure that a public thread is the right way to handle that. It's always been our policy that matters of moderation are between the user and the mod, I wont insult you by explaining the logic behind that.

If someone feels it's in the interests of others to know the reason that was given to them then fine, they can pass that along. A public thread however is likely to end up attracting the attention of too many uninvolved third parties and possibly causing more problems than it solves.
[Off-topic] mark manning:
If someone's post disappears and you don't receive a PM from us it was because you did nothing wrong. Chance are you had quoted a post we did want deleted and its easier to delete yours then it is to edit out the quote. Otherwise you will hear from us.

If you do something wrong, chances are you already know that you have. I have come across very few people who didn't know what they were doing before they did it in this forum. Also, for when someone does make a mistake. Us mods do have guidelines that we have to follow. If we were to break from these guidelines to hand out more strict punishment, we need a very good reason otherwise we would be in trouble ourselves.

It seems to me that the only people left posting want a more lenient OT. Even though you guys say you don't. I cannot seem to find any other reason behind the most recent posts. I just don't see that happening. We are 1 forum with 1 set of rules. The_scotsman said it best. "I don't see what it is so hard about following the rules" (or something like that very similar). Just follow the rules you guys and no one will ever be in trouble. This has been said by numerous mods before me. They also said some member of OT try to push the boundaries. This is also true. You guys all know what's allowed and what isn't. Also, don't give me that whole "interpretation" line because it really isn't what the problem is. My team and I talk to each other all day long and we make sure we are all in agreement on things.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Well, obviously, everyone is going to have an opinion. As i stated, I've done my best to distance myself from any side and to be as unbiased as I could. Which led me to think that the problem I've mentioned is THE problem. You know where you read the text and pull the key point out of it? That's what I've tried to do. Successfully or not..I don't know.

And i agree, root of the problem IS that certain posts are immature (guilty too btw, too easy to forget that people are real on the other side of the wire sometimes). But you can't just cut the root, it'll kill the plant. You made a small cut to it and it's rotting already (this thread didn't come out of nowhere, did it?). All aspects have to be treated at the same time.

BTW, no need to bring Mark back into conversation, you guys will be pleased to know that his recent actions have brought him a lot of respect from many members. And I'm quite aware of his contributions as he can confirm if you ask him.
[Off-topic] orangekid:
My last post was before I read this.

This is basically the solution to ANY perceived issue as I can see it. Feel free to PM any of us, if it does not resolve, PM any SM or one you personally feel comfortable with and the issue will always be looked into.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Which is completely logical and clears up things. See? Communication. Do you think "no it will not happen" would have achieved same reaction? (rhetorical question ktnxbye :p)

Oh, Mark, you are wrong. MOST people mean it when they say they are NOT after more lenient rules for themselves. Soursce - We do talk outside XDA.
[Off-topic] Archer:
Not gonna happen. You're suggesting that there's a thread where people can go and see why other people were infracted or banned?

That's a private matter between the moderators and the members in question. THAT's why people "disappear" without anyone knowing about it. It's just privacy. As I said way earlier in the thread, people get banned and tell their friends that they didn't do anything, so their friends stupidly accept that and tell everyone else and then we end up with a thread asking "what's going on here???" It's pretty clear to anyone that thinks about it what's going on, and I'm surprised it's even being questioned.
[Off-topic] orangekid:
I see what you mean.

At the end of the day I think if we assure you that if you PM the acting mod with respect, you will get a respectful answer and it can be sorted out and failing this, you can PM CTM or an SM and get at least a clear cut answer, we should be fine.

A public thread discussing specific cases though is practically unsound and would create far more havoc; orders of magnitude more so than this thread.
[Off-topic] undercover:
Lol. Ironic or what? :p

I could reason my thoughts behind it and specify what exactly i meant, but as it won't change anything (not being negative, just using logic here from the constructive answers) I'll leave it be.

---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

I guess it's a bit hard to PM anyone when you are banned.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
The issue with the idea of a thread comes back to what I addressed earlier.

Moderators are not ALLOWED to give details of another user's situation to any third party, or any enquiry thread, because that is a breach of confidentiality.

What if you send me a PM and ask me to disable your account as you're going through a tough time, and need to focus on real life without distractions? I'll gladly do it, and expire the disable action when you request it. But if you don't want other people to know the circumstances, why should they be able to enquire as to your personal circumstances?

If there are users who are getting infractions or warnings without understanding why, they are more than encouraged to POLITELY ask the mod about it. They will get a proper answer. If they don't, please let the MC know. I expect ANY mod can justify their mod actions properly and professionally. And if there was a mistake for some reason, it will be rectified quickly, and it leaves no adverse history for you.

The key part here is to go about it in the right way. If you get in bother for going on a flame rampage against someone, calling them a mother ducking door, and a mod gives you an infraction, I think we all agree that is warranted.

That's one thing that cannot change - you can't ask to be able to enquire about other people's circumstances - can you walk into the bank and ask about someone else's accounts?
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
I lol'd.

That's why we have the ban appeals system in place.
[Off-topic] pulser_g2:
As a non-banned person, you would think so. (not being rude etc btw there). Although users who are banned are instead given the information about the ban appeals process, and the form to complete.

They ARE reviewed, by someone entirely independent of the banning process. The problem is, having seen these appeals... 99% cannot get a reply, as they are simply meaningless outbursts of profanity and threats.

Once again, if someone feels they have been "hard done by", they should send a request for information there - often the ban reason will give the necessary information to them anyway, but if it doesn't, it can be clarified or investigated as an appeal.

If someone wants to waste that opportunity by telling the independent person who had NOTHING to do with their ban to go and sodomise themselves, they won't get far...

One thing I will not compromise on is that ALL staff have a right to volunteer here (they are volunteers) and not be faced with constant abuse or threats. Just like a store that says we do not tolerate abuse or assaults on staff, the same applies here. If people have a query or problem, please ask it! Ask any of us. But if you want to just swear and rant, do not expect to ever get back. You will be banned, just like you'd be banned from the store and have your mugshot put in the security office of the mall.
[Off-topic] veeman:
Public bitcoins? I'm up for that.

I think one of the problems is that none of us agree what this actual problem is.
[Off-topic] conantroutman:
It's only been three days.... GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!!!!! :p
[Off-topic] undercover:
What IS the problem from your point of view then? If you say it's JUST overzealous moderating I call it bull**** right now. There is a bigger picture.

“Power-lust is a weed that grows only in the vacant lots of an abandoned mind. ” ― Ayn Rand
[Off-topic] thewadegeek:
Just read all 78 pages...wow. Props to Pulsar/Archer, they are way more patient then me. Props also to those regular users that managed to represent their position with integrity, readability, and cool heads.

I'm still not sure everyone is truly grasping the issue at hand though, unless I missed it(more then possible). To me the problem seems to be trust.

We are all human, and humans make errors. The issue that users have is when moderators make errors, they tend to have a much larger impact, beyond just themselves, it also affects the users. This causes the user to lose faith in that moderator, and distrust them farther down the road, which in-turn leads to grudges, hurt-feelings, and general discontentment. Is that correct? Make sense?

So in my eyes the questions the users are asking is "Why should we trust the moderators? We don't know them!" which I can agree with and sympathize with, but unfortunately we can do nothing about it. We need to trust them and the system they put in place for us to use. Sure some of them will abuse it, and have in the past, but reporting stuff to the moderator committee DOES seem to get results, even if you have to do it a couple times. I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, we could "fix" the profanity problems, make the OT a bit more lax, add different moderators, and infract current ones, but in the end we will still need to trust the moderators, which after seeing the behavior of Archer and Pulsar in this thread makes it much easier for me at least to do.

---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

The problem boils down to lack of trust(justified or not) and the fact that as a general user we feel we have no way to hold the moderators accountable for their actions. At least that's the opinion I get from reading this thread, I have no issues with the moderators myself.(Not meaning to speak for veeman).
[Off-topic] Whiskey103:
FTFY

[MENTION=334703]jotha[/MENTION], here.. Haz a button :p