yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] joelvn:
8Gb card fat32 and a 2gb back up usually takes around 2/3 minutes. But randomly it takes like 30 minutes
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] chubby65:
Mine's a San disk original 64gb exfat card and a backup normally takes just over 10 minutes
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
Thank you all,

Still need feedback from more 64Gb exfat users

But overall, seems an issue with some "bad sdcards" that moving exfat modules seems to worsen
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] soza971:
how to take screenshot in recovery?

Backup time : 06:51mn

Backup size : 2748.99mb

compression 0.00%

Samsung Micro SDXC 64GB Class 10
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
Good time here.

Screen shot doesn't work for s4
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] wessel596:
Phil i got 02:12 mn on a 1.8 gb backup with a 64 gb samsung micro SDXC class 10 card
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] -Zork-:
Are the slow backup only happened with 64gb sd card?

In case of 32gb, is it working normal speed?

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 2
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] andymihail:
Slow backup

Samsung microSDXC 64GB Pro Class10, UHS-1

Backup to external SD using PhilZ Touch 5.06.6:

Backup time: 31:06 mn

Backup size: 3611.95Mb

Compression: 0.00%

Backup to external SD using PhilZ Touch 5.06.0:

Backup time: 27:29 mn

Backup size: 3613.27Mb

Compression: 0.00%

My question for those with fast backup is: what ROM are you on? odexed or deodexed?

and what Kernel are you using?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
I am happy to see it is not an issue with my recovery now and that the exfat modules do work perfectly for most

Now, the issue could be in deed with some third party roms/kernels

I have a last request.

Anyone willing to test this?

- format /system in recovery

- reboot into recovery (from Advanced / Reboot Recovery)

- check if exfat external sd can be loaded

Just ensure you backup /system to internal sd before doing above so that you can restore it if you cannot see external sd

You can use custom backup/restore mod to just backup/restore /system
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] -Zork-:
Sorry for ask maybe

If comming from CWM chenglu and want to flash to CWM Advanced Edition] PhilZ Touch.

Will work via recovery?

Recovery (.zip) packages instructions

They come in the form of .zip files that can be flashed in cwm recovery

Download philz_touch_xxx.zip file

Put the previously downloaded philz_touch_xxx.zip file on your sd card

Boot into recovery (volume up+home+power)

Select "Install zip" and browser to your downloaded zip file.

Now select the philz_touch_xxx.zip fileyou copied in previous step

You will have PhilZ Touch Recovery flashed

or have i do with Odin flash?

Thanks
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] andymihail:
It works via recovery.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] simondavies315:
How comes this recovery can't mount external SD cards formatted as FAT32? I had to format it as this so CyanogenMod could read it aswell as Windows 8

I tried formatting it as ext3 but then Windows 8 can't copy files to it and booting into a live cd of Ubuntu it can't recognise my sd card reader :(

Can this recovery even mount 32gb cards formatted as ext3 or ext4?

Any ideas guys?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] simondavies315:
I reformatted my SD card with SD Formatter 4 from www.sdcard.org as advised on a post someone else submitted on another forum and it fixed the problem :)

Strange that it didn't like it formatted in FAT32 by Windows 8
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
Because you probably formatted as logical part
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] andymihail:
Backup times internal / external

Just want to mention that on internal sd, a backup takes 17 minutes, which is still slow, comparing to other people reports here.

On external I managed to get 25 minutes backup time.

I ask again, those of you with very fast backup times on a 64 Gb sd card, what rom and kernel are you using?

Thanks.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] soza971:
Foxhound GearEngine 0.5 , didn't flash any kernel.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] andymihail:
However, I just tried TWRP and it only took me 9 min to make a full backup on external sd.

Will return to PhilZ Touch as soon as this is being fixed.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] timberwolf60:
I always backup to my sandisk cl10 exFAT 64gb card without problems and it took about 15mn on backuo. But the restoring it took 30mn to complete on mf2 and mea rom. To me the time is not critical as long as no error and phone booted up normally after the restored. Never facing mounting problems. My card was formatted on phone also had tried on windows 7/32. Worked flawlessly to me. And worked well in my phone and in my pc.

I only had problems on S2. I must formatted by phone(JB) and read/write without problems but it can't recognised by pc card reader slot. But in usb mode connected to pc by data cable, then my pc can recognised it as exFAT. When I formatted it in phone running ics,I get fat32.

Send via i9505 using XDA premium,

ROM: Stock OLB_UBMEA, cf rooted,

Kernel and recovery: Stock/Phil recovery. superSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card

---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

Directly formatted in phone running stock samsung rom. You will be fat32 and can recognised by pc.

Send via i9505 using XDA premium,

ROM: Stock OLB_UBMEA, cf rooted,

Kernel and recovery: Stock/Phil recovery.

superSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] bknez:
Hi, i have made an backup. It was sucsessfull. How can i restore? It says no files found. I have no external sd card. Thanks

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9505 mit Tapatalk 2
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
I am working on a new exfat support method

Let's see if it fixes things

Will update you as soon as it is done
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] angelohb:
This application has an option to format the internal memory completely? Superwipe.zip had a file that used in s3 for this ... But it does not work in s4. Sorry my bad english.

Enviado do meu GT-I9505
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] .c0dy:
Could anybody upload the newest version?

It seems like devhost is down :/

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Okay, nvm :D I guess that not only today, for what i've read now. Will see if i can find a working link :)
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] derHeiko:
Hello,

After I have tried to flash the rom I get this message at the start-up of Recvoery

E:could not mount /data to setup /data/media path!

Each rom what I'm trying to install runs in a boot loop.

I have already reset and updated to the latest version of the recovery. Brought but unfortunately without success.

Maybe you know a solution for the problem?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
remove any format thing from your script or ask ROM releaser to fix it
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] derHeiko:
I have found the solution. Under the option "advanced" I have pressed the following "Storage set to /data/media".

The error message is gone and everything works again.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] wizard83:
Guys I have a big problem: I made a nandroid backup of my rooted stock rom (MEA), but when I restore it, I have the rom fully wiped!

Any solution?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] gtizon:
How can I delete the back up file that I created via recovery? It eats up lots of space :(
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] xcsvxangelx:
Lol maybe you should think about your question again.... Just delete em with any filebrowser you like.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] gtizon:
I mean where do I find the backup folder? I cant see it in memory
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
you can also delete from cwm menus
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] joelvn:
/data/media/clockworkmod/backup
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] simondavies315:
You can also delete it from the Backup and Restore menu in the Recovery :)
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Cabeção-Flu:
Noob question:

Am i wrong or the background of top bar changes to grey with these kernel? (before was black)

If yes, is there any configuration of that or only by mod?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] gtizon:
Thanks for all your answers. Was able to delete. Love it! Wonderful.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
exfat debug

WARNING: backup your external exfat storage before testing

Please, for people having exfat issues:

download http://d-h.st/k51

While in recovery

adb push mount.exfat-fuse /sbin
adb shell
chmod 0775 /sbin/mount.exfat-fuse
/sbin/mount.exfat-fuse -o big_writes,max_read=131072,max_write=131072 /dev/block/mmcblk1p1 /external_sd

This should mount external storage exfat

Test backup and restore speed if ok

If it is stable, I will embed in next update
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Hardcore69er:
can I use international recoveries such as this one on a carrier branded phone like TMO?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] timberwolf60:
On pyrana 1.3 with adam 1.3.3 Kernel. No problems backup/restore. But on pyrana 1.5 and 1.6 rom with adam 1.3.3 Kernel I had facing mounting problem. I just upgraded to adam 1.4 Kernel and all worked on backup/restore.

Send via i9505 using XDA premium,

ROM: PYRANA MF4 1.6 LITE,

CSC/Modem: OLBBMEA/DXUBMEA,

Kernel: Adam 1.4, Phil recovery,

SuperSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
With attached above mount.exfat-fuse file pushed by adb?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] moro30:
i have MEA firmware, what is the best philz recovery version? 5.06.0 or 5.06.6??

i want to use faux (version 06) or KT kernel (last version), this recovery it is compatible with this kernels?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] LeJolly:
it's compatible with every kernel that has a flashable zip file. And just flash the latest one (5.06.6)
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Thal_BR:
So its compatible with MF8, too?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] ARieS_:
It's seems slow on backup to external. 5.06.0 faster then 5.06.6 i think. On 5.06.0 took all backup about 15-20 minutes. Now on 5.06.6 past more than half an hour and still 60% of /data backup.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
It will be fixed when I get feedback on my previous post:
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] LeJolly:
Yes of course :)

Please hit the like button if I helped ;)
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Mastiha:
I can't access my external SD card. If I try to see if I can, it seems to hang.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] noooooo:
My s4 take more than 45 minutes to restore a backup, is this normal?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] chubby65:
No mate should take around 10 minutes
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] noooooo:
It's the same if i restore from external sd? what may be the probklem?!
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] jimbojack_uk:
I get the following error after chmod, I'm no expert at adb, so I have no idea what it means.

~ $ chmod 0775 /sbin/mount.exfat-fuse
chmod 0775 /sbin/mount.exfat-fuse
chmod: /sbin/mount.exfat-fuse: Operation not permitted
~ $
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] -Sie-:
You might need to su before you run the chmod command

~ $ su
~ $ chmod 0775 /sbin/mount.exfat-fuse
~ $

[/QUOTE]
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
as said, you need su to have root access if not root on first adb shell

instead of $ symbol, you get # symbol showing you are root

Try also "adb root" from windows console

Until someone tests the new exfat-fuse binary I compiled, I won't update exfat support on the recovery flashable image

The binary is 800kb uncompressed and won't fit in ramdisk until I compress it and inflate it on recovery start

Also, I need to change recovery source for it to work

So, until someone tests what I asked for, I am not going to do all that without being sure it works
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] elrazerx:
Have you an USB cable plugged in.

I read in another thread that it could be a problem

For me restore from ext SD take about 8min for 2.4gb.

Envoyé depuis mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk 4 Beta
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] jimbojack_uk:
I tried su at the time but it didn't work, I'll try adb root when I get home from work in about 12 hours if nobody else has given it a go by then.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MRDOCA:
quick question. what happened? lol i was using MEA firmware and updated to mf4 now mf8 and phills cant see my External sd card? did samsung change something? ext sd is working on TWRP fine so just using that till i see a fix.

weird issue though.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MaKTaiL:
Guys, I don't know if this has been asked before but here goes:

Do I have to root the phone first before flashing this recovery through Odin?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] jimbojack_uk:
No
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MaKTaiL:
So I can flash Cyanogen for exemple without rooting the stock rom?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] hanspampel:
No. I dont think it will work.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Bajo76:
Yes you can. CM is already rooted.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MaKTaiL:
Hmm, interesting...... thanks for answering.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Bajo76:
Boot into download mode and flash cwm or twrp recovery with odin - boot into recovery - flash cm zip and gapps and you are ready.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] jimbojack_uk:
Ok, I got it to work, I needed to mount system first so that su command would work.

I then hit another stumbling block, I've upgraded my rom to mf8 and as somebody has already mentioned external sd won't mount in PhilZ recovery.

Sorry, I couldn't test it out.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] emx_o:
root@android:/ # /sbin/mount.exfat-fuse -o big_writes,max_read=131072,max_write=
131072 /dev/block/mmcblk1p1 /external_sd
rites,max_read=131072,max_write=131072 /dev/block/mmcblk1p1 /external_sd <
FUSE exfat 1.0.0

is what I get. external SD is mountable afterwards! It was not before! Please update Recovery to include this! :)

edit: Backup goes like 2MB/s - it was way faster back in the days the same SD Card was working with your Recovery as exfat
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
Stop asking about exfat support!

I asked for some testing that no one provided. Until that, stop spamming and read last pages.

Thank you
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] emx_o:
I only provided what you were asking for? Or do you mean someone else?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
Sorry, did not read your post. Was bored about these mfxxx things from people not reading.

Thank you for the feedback. So, you mean backup is still slow with the new exfat binary?

If it is the case, it could be we need bigger buffer in writing. Not sure there as i cannot test it sadly.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] emx_o:
np mate :)

yes, but as a sideinfo your CWM wasnt working for me lately (only things having to do with my external SD) but in the beginning it did. With ExFAT and ext4. Now with this thing you told us to do it was mounted once again but unfortunately pretty slow.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Phil3759:
Ok, thank you. Probably Samsung exfat modules are somehow linked to other modules in /system, breaking things on some rom updates.

This new exfat-fuse binary seems to fix only part of the issue, that is mounting card. However, slowness could be related to some parts in source and also to block size writes from tar maybe. Not sure there is an easy fix for this right now. I will look at it later. Meanwhile, next update will revert to the shared exfat libs to fix issues. I could add exfat-fuse when things fail because of a reboot after /system is formatted, sort of a transparent rescue mode

Thank you again
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] gsmgps:
Hi...

Great work. But....i have I9505 and 64gb sd card. Philz recovery wont recognize it. Why? Help.

Tnx

Regards S
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] timberwolf60:
From mea to mf8 firmware. Rooted by cf auto root. Used mobile odin or sgs4 flasher to flash phil 5.06.0.tar, All worked for me. Only it take a bit longer time for backup/restore. Suggest you flashed a new rom after f. reset. Backup about 20 minutes, restore took more then 30 minutes.

Send via i9505 using Tapatalk,

ROM: PYRANA MF4 1.6 LITE.,

CSC/Modem: OLBBMEA/DXUBMEA

Kernel/recovery: adam/Stock or Phil recovery.

SuperSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] chubby65:
Which version of the recovery are you using I've got 64gb card too and recovery does recognize it
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] gsmgps:
test it all version:

version 5.0.6.0 and up...dont Mount sd card

version 5.0.5.6 work :)
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] chubby65:
Yeah that's the same as I'm using mate
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] aljo00:
Works great.

Thx!
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Leonardus97:
I can't boot into recovery. I just flashed it, but when I turn it off and try to boot with the key combination, it shows the screen with the model info (in the upper right corner it says booting recovery), the screen goes black, and when I stop holding the keys, it just vibrates and boots normally.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] il_capo:
Release shortly b4 model Info appears!

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9505 mit Tapatalk 2
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] chubby65:
Use holo reboot mate it'd be easier for you
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MaKTaiL:
I already have root but no recovery. Can I flash this through Mobile Odin?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] kemmo123:
yes.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] nicekit:
guys

sorry if i post it at wrong place, but i am not sure where to ask my issue.. :(

i use PhilZTouch to do a CWM backup

wipe data/factory reset/ clean to install new rom

wipe cache partition

wipe Dalvik Cache

install ParanoidAndroid

dun like it due to some feature issue

boot back to PhilZTouch

do a a wipe data/ clean to install new rom

wipe cache and Dalvik

restore the CWM backup

boot back into my original Samsung ROM

but when i go to my MX Player, or Samsung default video player

it listed non of the the videos stored on my external SDCard

but if i use ES File Explorer i can see the file on my ExtSDCard

i can still play the video file

i have restart the phone

shutdown and power up

eject the sdcard and put it back in

what happened?

please help...
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MaKTaiL:
So, I want to install a new rom, the Google Edition.

Is it safe to choose the option: "Clean to install a new ROM" or should I just go with "Wipe Data/Factory Reset"?

What's the difference between those two? Also, where is the Nandroid backup stored? I can't seem to find it here. I thought it would be on clockworkmod folder.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] hanspampel:
Not the nandroid question. Use the search mate, thats what its for. It was mentioned many times here.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Vihru:
i make backup with chenglua cwm.. no it dont find it with philz touch recovery...

how to fix that?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] MaKTaiL:
What about the other question?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] thunderserpent:
Wipe Data formats "data" such as user apps, your cache and nothing to do with the system. This means if you choose this and reboot it will be like you have just installed a new ROM and are running it for the first time.

Clean install does a factory reset + formats the system, boot and preload partitions meaning if you reboot without installing a new ROM you will just get a black screen.

So if you want to install the Google ROM choose a clean install :)
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Vihru:
i take backup for internal memory and now i cant move it to computer because i dont found it.

it is not in clockworkmod-folder.. so where it is? i dont have sdcard.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] timberwolf60:
If you on stock rom and rooted with cf auto root. This recovery will worked for you. If you used other,

then it will sometime work and sometime no. Other type of kernel may make your nandroid backup set became unless. I had this problems on pyrana mf8 1.7. Cwm will not recognised my 64gb exFAT card. But on pyrana mf4 1.6 was working fine.

When I on pyrana 1.6, I used this cwm to restore my stock mf8 nandroid backup set from external sd card. It was the first time it take super fast, 15 minutes to completed the restore. After reboot my exFAT no more recognised by this cwm recovery. So I flashed pyrana 1.7 from internal sd card. All programe worked except Phil or chenglu cwm recovery. So used titanium backup for restoration.

****&Edit *****

Refreshed the stock mf8 rom and rooted by cf auto root. Now I don't used mobile odin and only using pc odin to flash cwm recovery. Boot to recovery to flashed pyrana mf8 1.7 rom. booted without problems. Used sgs4 flasher to flash mf8 stock recovery and put my phone in download mode. Flashed olbmea csc, done and my STH csc code still remained. Without usibg mobile odin and my cwm no problems on my exFAT 64GB card.

Send via i9505 using XDA premium,

ROM: PYRANA MF8 1.7 LITE.,

CSC/Modem: OLBBMEA/XXUBMEA

Kernel/recovery: Stock/Phil recovery.

SuperSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------

Look in data/media/clockworkmod folder.

Send via i9505 using XDA premium,

ROM: PYRANA MF8 1.7 LITE.,

CSC/Modem: OLBBMEA/XXUBMEA

Kernel/recovery: Stock/Phil recovery.

SuperSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] kafej666:
After "Clean to install a new ROM" I still have every data in internal memory ...
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] Vihru:
No backup in data/media/clockwork..

so where is it? i want move that backup to my computer.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] hanspampel:
Look at /data/media/0/clockworkmod.
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] walda:
I know the exfat questions suck, but I just want to mention, that mine isnt recognized with the latest adam kernel also. Rom is mf4 wanam.

Maybe its because the samsung update2 sources!? Maybe this helps.

Sorry for boring if not. :D

Ignore my signature, I bought an I9505 also.

... tapat@lked
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] bowden89:
Touch not working

Hi all,

I've flashed this recovery a couple of times now and the touch isn't working, is this known or just me?

Thanks
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] andyjg247:
Has always worked for me. Your device definitely a 9505?
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] noname55804:
I cant backup/install to/fraom my external sd because "cant mount /external_sd" is it because i haven an exfat 64gb sd card???
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] timberwolf60:
Which rom and what kernel for us to understand more. I do facing this problem but now all ok with 5.06.0 and chenglu cwm 6.0.3.2-4 and 6.0.3.2-5.

But 5.06.6 I had this problem.

Send via i9505 using Tapatalk,

ROM: PYRANA MF8 1.7 LITE.,

CSC/Modem: OLBBMEA/XXUBMF8

Kernel/recovery: Adam 1.4/CWM recovery.

SuperSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] noname55804:
At the moment i´m on stock MF8 with a not very popular but very good kernel. I´ll try to flash 5.06.0

Thank you

Okay it works, thanks again
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] timberwolf60:
Great your problems solved. You can used titanium backup also much better on s4. I had experienced once when I done a nandroud restore on mf8 stock rom. After booted up and cwm not recognised my exFAT 64GB card ended up I re flashed the rom. Rooted by cf auto root. Flashed phil 5.06.0 and used it to flash pyrana mf8 1.7 rom.

Send via i9505 using XDA premium,

ROM: PYRANA MF8 1.7 LITE.,

CSC/Modem: OLBBMEA/XXUBMF8

Kernel/recovery: Adam 1.4/cwm recovery.

SuperSU Pro 1.34, 64GB exFAT Card
[Galaxy S 4 i9505 Android Development] noname55804:
Again recovery 5.60.0 is unable to mount extenal_sd- Also tried reflashing, whats the problem?? Any ideas