yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
I do have a life. ;) I was referring to things like weddings, conferences, trade shows, and large company meetings as "planned social settings."

Of course. We can barely agree on side-by-side pictures from the One and SGS4 better yet dragging non-phone cameras in to the discussion. I think we all are applying different definitions of "low light" too and kind of blurring it with "no light." I do think the One's better in no light situations as regardless of pic quality or detail that's where the larger photosites would shine. It does have over/under exposure issues but in no light settings it's irrelevant because it's one of only a few cameras that could capture anything usable at all without using the flash.

This is GSMArena's definition of low light - We waited until dusk and took several samples with the two phones. There are a couple of outside shots taken with Night mode on.

This is Android Central's.

Damn. Diligent aren't we? ;) I'm surprised though that in that exhaustive an analysis that you didn't mention detail at all. You and a bunch of folks that are getting or leaning toward the One have to come back after some time with it to share how well it met/meets your expectations.

For me it would be the SGS4 for the detail, better post-processing, and performance in better lighting. But I wouldn't buy any phone for the camera alone and, to your point, neither camera is that great or crappy to make the camera so compelling to override other things that are important to me.
[Galaxy S 4 General] ThoseGuys:
Well time will only tell which is actually better. Won't be long and we'll have some much better comparisons.
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
Yeah, I agree completely. My personal definition of low light is much closer to Android Central's, though.

Detail as in high-res photo detail? That was the primary objective when determining which photos to put in the GS4 folder. For example, I have several photos of Colts games from my seat high atop Lucus Oil Stadium. I sit on the 50 yard line but literally 2 rows from the top. My ears almost pop walking up the steps. The ability to zoom and crop is priceless in those situations. The same goes for virtually all of my vacation photos. Probably 95% of the photos that I will take will be more than sufficient on the One, but on the other hand, the other 5% do tend to be the ones that are most important to me. In that regard, having the One helps justify buying a real camera for those occasions.

You bet. :good:

I tortured myself over this decision for a couple of weeks. I was all set to purchase the One when everybody thought it would be released on March 15'th. Then the detail comparison photos started coming in, particularly from GSMArena, and I was absolutely off of the One bandwagon. Up until the moment I clicked submit on my Newegg order, I was very much planning to buy the GS4. Even after that, I knew that I had 2 weeks until the phone arrived and another 2 weeks after it was activated to change my mind. Now that there are some post-firmware update photos starting to come out, I'm pretty convinced that I'm going to be happy with my purchase. This is easily the most difficult consumer electronics decision that I've ever had to make, though.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
Speaking of better comparisons, GSMArena uploaded a ton of pictures yesterday that were taken with the shipping s/w on the SGS4. Here's some comps side by side (old<>new).

Update, April 12: We got our hands on a retail unit of the Galaxy S4. Here are some samples shot with the market-ready Galaxy S4​

http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s4-review-914p9.php

Click on the pics and you can play with them full size on Flickr.
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
I agree, but if we're talking solely about that building, it's not accurate to call this a low light shot. It can probably be seen from the International Space Station.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
Hmm. Not trying to influence your decision but those same situations are what have me leaning the other way.

4MP is just not enough, despite HTC’s claim that “Megapixels don’t matter.” Of course they matter. Consider this. The Nexus 10′s screen is a full 4.0 MP (at 2560×1600). If you pull up a full-resolution photo you’ve taken on an HTC One on the Nexus 10, you can’t zoom in because there is no more image data. Do this on the iPad (which has a slightly lower screen resolution), you’ll get similar results. Even if you zoom in on the One’s 1920×1080 (that’s 2MP) display, forget about being able to zoom in on a photo of a group of people to see detail in an individual’s face. There’s just not enough data there at 4MP.

http://pocketnow.com/2013/02/20/megapixels-matter-htc-ultrapixel​

Did you read this post? Software's not going to change anything in it as the comments are all related to the 4MP sensor's limitations.

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=39974885&postcount=270
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
I'd be very curious to know whether each of these photos are taken in the One's "Night Mode", or not. From what I've seen, it makes a huge difference. I know that I've seen reviews that us only normal mode. It would be nice if they'd mark them, somehow. That's probably true of the other phones, as well.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
We've compared so many pictures with so many different versions of s/w with such inconsistent settings (camera and scene) that it's almost impossible to draw any finite conclusions. Anandtech does pretty exhaustive reviews so I'm looking forward to their objective testing of the SGS4 to compare against the results they've already posted for the One. They typically give you the settings and background info on how a particular shot is framed. I just pray that it's not Brian that does the review but Anand himself. If it's Brian at least we'll have the objective data to work with. ;)
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
Oh sure, I'm well aware of how resolution works, and that's why I was so frustrated with the One when the GSMArena comparisons came out. My thoughts at that time are archived in this thread, somewhere. HTC profiled me perfectly, though. 95% of the photos that I take are absolutely dumb, or not anything that I care about keeping. They're pictures of a plate of sushi that I want to post on facebook. They're pictures underneath my car, so that I can post them on web forums and get help identifying parts, when I don't know what I'm doing. They're pictures of items in my house, so that when I go to Lowe's I have a quick reference of what home improvement items I need to buy.

Most of what is left are fairly close up shots of friends and family, where there just isn't much need to zoom and where it just isn't going to matter much. Finally, I've got my social shots, which are mostly nightlife and will mostly look better on the One, and the sporting event/vacation photos that will look better on the GS4. These are a very low percentage of my actual photos. Since we're talking about such a small number of days out of the year, it shouldn't be too much trouble for me to carry around a real camera, when it really counts. And since I'm getting the One for $30, including next day shipping, I can pretty easily justify spending $200 for a point-and-shoot Canon.

Personally, I think everybody who is on the fence should do what I did; go through the photos that you've actually taken and see where they fall.
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
A lot of good points being brought up here, but for all the talk, it still comes down to the fundamentals:

SGS4 more detail, better in good light.

One better in low light.

None of these are surprising, and already we are seeing changes to both cameras through software updates. With the One we are about to go on to our second new base which indicates further changes to the camera. So far I believe shutter speed has been increased and the flash threshold has been lowered (now actually more likely to fire in poor light).

I'm happy with the One camera, and I'm sure I will be with the SGS4. At the end of the day, I still have my DSLR to take on holiday etc, a phone is never going to replace that.
[Galaxy S 4 General] hung2900:
OMG so great. The photos look less overexposed, color accuracy is better (the trees are green), less noise on sky, less noise reduction and more detail.

Haven't check the video yet, but I think it's also better.
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
I agree, the SGS4's ability to turn the leaves green is nothing short of a miracle :laugh:
[Galaxy S 4 General] Terrorantula:
Saturation only matters when compared to something else, if you see the picture on it's own then it'll look fine. It's the same for the OLED screens, like I find them to look perfectly normal, they aren't so over saturated that it looks fake, however compared to LCDs, they look really saturated. The fact is however I will never sit there comparing the screen to something else. Really the thing that matters most is black levels, when you look at a white your brain gets used to it and you just see white, however with LCDs you never get used to blacks not being black.

For me image stabilization, low light, video and audio quality are more important that saturation. That said however resolution and clarity matters, so sadly both phones don't really offer a perfect camera, they both have their pros and cons. Also phones are about more than cameras, in fact the camera part isn't that important, if I wanted amazing pictures I'd just own a proper camera.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
I guess one could say the same thing about the One's seemingly amazing capability to obliterate detail. ;)
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
So, where are GSMArena's updated One photos? The One's firmware update came before the GS4's...

I'm not alleging bias, but every single photo they took in their comparison was perfectly suited to show off the strengths of the GS4's camera and the weaknesses of the One. In other words, they are virtually all long distance landscape shots with more than sufficient daylight. There is exactly one macro shot in their comparison, but they don't allow you view it side by side with the GS4. They only allow you to zoom in and see all of the magical missing detail. They don't even allow you to just view it at 100% without the super-zoom doodad. There is not a single night shot in their comparison piece. Not a single one. How weird...

Okay, maybe I'm alleging bias. That or gross incompetence are the only logical explanations. Take a look for yourself and tell me that I'm wrong:

http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s4_vs_htc_one-review-913p8.php
[Galaxy S 4 General] gavinfabl:
This thread is dragging on a bit. I have the HTC One and have used the camera extensively. Based on my photos vs S4 photos and comments in this thread, the differences are obvious, and have been stated time and time again.

It boils down to what you are going to use your camera for. The HTC One captures people and motion very well, most conditions, bright light is not a problem either. The camera shutter is very fast. As its only 4mp , file sizes are small, therefore sharing is easier , faster and quicker. It's a compromise that works well.

Now this is where the S4 kicks in. For everything else the S4 appears to top and that's due to the higher MP and therefore the available detail.

My previous phones, iPhone. 5, Note 2 and S3 were unable to freeze motion , eg dogs running or kids playing. I find this part priceless.

However, I am frustrated over the lack of detail on scenic shots. It's a catch 22

I would love to see how the S4 compares with motion myself, so will buy one once its released so I can compare and form my own view. It would be so good if we could combine the lenses.
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
GSMArena's photos were taking with the shipping software? How do you know it wasn't pre-production?

:confused:

Certainly I understand that software updates will produce modest improvements, at best. I don't think anyone has suggested that they will magically produce more detail. What they can improve is the overexposure previously mentioned in the photo of the building that was lit up at night. I think that the updated photos from the GS4 likely do show the kind of improvements that can be seen through software, though who knows, it could all be related to the conditions and lighting on that day.

Either way, this has caused me to go back and look at the GSMArena piece, and I really kind of irks me that at one point I had committed myself to buy the GS4 100% based on their review shots, as it's now painfully obvious what they were trying to do. There is just no way that you can read that piece and not come away thinking that the One's camera is a complete pos.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
Pre-production<>production. There was a pretty drastic softening around the corners of pics (this is a crop of the upper left corner of a montage) that would be impossible for reviewers to ignore if they were using pre-production s/w.

Here's something else to consider. According to Brian from Anandtech HTC sources the camera module from two different vendors. In addition, low yields (QC) of the camera sensor are what caused the One's production delays. Low yields mean that out of every "X" built "X" are sub-optimal and end up in the garbage. With different vendors and pressure on production, variances in the camera h/w that's appearing across different devices isn't out of the question. For something to pass QC it doesn't need a score of 100%, there's some range of acceptable variance and with devices waiting for camera modules in order to be built it's HTC's call on what's acceptable or not. Kudos to HTC for engineering something unique. But going against convention isn't without risk and even riskier when you're a smaller company with limited resources.

In the next couple of weeks the volume of One's in people's hands is going to grow exponentially with its launch in the U.S. It'll be interesting to read people's experiences and opinions. Same applies with the SGS4. There’s almost a mythical quality applied to phones when they are new, reviewed, and in few people’s hands. The fun starts when people begin using them the way they’ve used their previous devices. That’s when the you start to get a feel about what's "real" vs. myth, marketing, and fanboyism. Phones and their features always get the forums they deserve. Happy devices have happy forums.
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
I guess I'm the only one who got my joke. I was assuming that the updated pics with the S4 were taken some time after the originals, and the leaves have started to turn green in that time.....

While I'm here, might as well show a pic I took today with the one. The Zoe feature is definitely pretty cool, and I'm assuming it couldn't be pulled off with a 13MP (or even 8MP) camera? I would struggle to catch this moment even with my DSLR, without having repeated attempts.
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
Sorry, here is the pic
[Galaxy S 4 General] CLARiiON:
I am not sure what so special about the photo that a DSLR can't do it!
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
Zoe takes 20 full resolution still shots in 3 seconds. I would assume that is to what is being referred.
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
Of course a DSLR can.....my point is that it would probably take multiple attempts. I'm not even sure how fast the burst mode is on my DSLR, but with the gaps in frames I wouldn't usually get anything too useful. Zoe is very good at catching the moment in that respect.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
It's funny you brought that up. I was going to say something similar in response and thought for sure I'd get flamed as being a Samsung fanboy. So I was thinking like you were but didn't have the balls to say anything. ;)

And I was kidding too. With all the discussion we've had about detail, blowing up shots taken from the One and comparing them to higher MP camera's is kind of a low blow at this point. At typical resolutions my trifecta pic is pretty much irrelevant.

All's well in the kingdom. :)
[Galaxy S 4 General] NZtechfreak:
Wow, really? What DSLR? My standalone shoots jpg bursts at 11fps and even full RAW at 6fps... In any case, nice shot, certainly freezing motion is one of the nice things about the One camera.
[Galaxy S 4 General] hung2900:
Difference is still noticeable

When I saw the original pic, S4 is clearly suprior in term of detail.

No matter how wonderful "Ultrapixel" is, the detail on its photos is still from an 4.3 MP sensor

Here is one photo from 5MP camera of iPhone 4, for comparison.

In good light condition, even an almost 3 year-old cameraphone can beat HTC One.
[Galaxy S 4 General] foxy4270:
Take a look at these pics taken by HTC One.

I think are great.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd1xlncz3np0dj/Dj57TogB0K#/
[Galaxy S 4 General] Canard caché:
a looooot of threatment and even artifacts... not good
[Galaxy S 4 General] Carter0108:
HTC's photos ate definitely sharper but I have to say the Galaxy S4's photos look nicer.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
Any picture that the shooter thinks is great,

is

great. ;) When I open the pics from the Dropbox link on my 24" monitor the default is full-size at 1600x904 which is the resoultion you shot them at vs. 2688x1520 which is the One's full 4MP resolution.

At that resolution, this is what I first noticed (but I was looking since you said "great"). It's similar to the "oil painting" look from the macro crop I posted earlier. It's caused by something in HTC's camera s/w. Since you were shooting at less detail, anything that's cropped is going to suffer more than shooting at 4MP.

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

N2 for good measure...
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
Yeah, admittedly I have a Nikon D50 which is now approaching 8 years old! I will upgrade one day, but to be honest it takes really nice pics and I'm rather attached to it :)
[Galaxy S 4 General] Bathyon:
I've been going back and forth betweent these two phones like a crazy person. Pre ordered both. The camera is very important to me to capture my everyday. I did what an earlier poster suggested and went through my previous pics to get an idea of what my use cases usually are and what I use my pictures for.

I have more photos in bad light (outdoors at evening or night, indoors, restaurants, parties, visiting friends etc) than outdoors in bright daylight. But the biggest thing I noticed was that long shuttertimes and bad light sensitivity often ruined the indoor pictures completely. They often get unusable. Moving children, pets, friends at parties became blurry or dark and the picture unusable. I know that it often takes many tries to get a usable picture in bad light and many times the moment has passed before I get it. Hate that! Short shutter times is king in my world :)

What I saw in the PhoneArena review made me at first want the S4. But when I, in the same review, saw that the One delivers these results almost every time but that you had to try many times (in low light) to get it with the S4 it all became clear to me.

It's clear that the One doesn't take as nice daylight shots as the S4, but hopefully good enough. Equal or better low light pics from the S4 are of little interest to me if it is depending on longer shutter times and many tries to get the picture right. I don't use my mobile camera like that.

I think the One is the better all around shooter if I want usable pics every time I take out my camera to get "all those moments". Maybe I will miss the picture quality of the S4 in some situations but I think the trade off will be worth it.
[Galaxy S 4 General] ipmanwck:
My one is going back. They have lots of bad camera lens on the phone and bad build quality. I would not even bother.

Custom Stock Rom 4.1 Eternity

Brilliantly Stock
[Galaxy S 4 General] Mithrandir007:
They did say it was captured in total darkness, but is it me or did they use the flash? (check the reflection) ;)
[Galaxy S 4 General] Bathyon:
Hehe.. I was thinking the same thing. I guess they mean with flash in total darkness. No other light sources. But still it's a strange way to put it. And without a comparison with another phone with flash it's not very telling of the abilities of the One.
[Galaxy S 4 General] yahyoh:
WOW the frame rate on the ONE seems very low and the focus very very slow , XZ focus seems slow too :silly:

[YOUTUBE]c0eyJT2Uw_0[/YOUTUBE]
[Galaxy S 4 General] hung2900:
I'm quite lazy now to make another comparison photo. But I checked, Note 2 is still much sharper than iPhone 4 and HTC One.

Anw, do you agree with me that iPhone 4's photo is sharper than One's?
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
Any 5 MP camera is going to have more detail than a 4.3 MP camera. That point isn't even debatable.

As far as "sharper", most reviewers seem to think that the One is too sharp, and would prefer they soften the photos up a tad, by default.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
Here's the One<>iP4<>i9000. The One smears all the detail in the stucco. I don't think it's the sensor, it's HTC post-processing. You shouldn't be able to see such a drastic difference in detail between three good 4/5MP sensors. 8/13MP yes; 5MP no.
[Galaxy S 4 General] Basil3:
Yeah, in theory I agree, although for the One (the first picture I assume?), the sun is hitting the front of the buildings almost square on, so you're not going to get the same level of detail as with the other two, where you can see by the shadows that the sun is coming across the buildings.

I found the same with the comparisons of the One to the S4 in the same shot. The angle of the light is almost putting the One at a disadvantage in a fight it's always going to lose.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
Taken at the same time in the GSMArena One vs. SGS4 face-off. I would have given the One the benefit of the doubt about the different setting conditions if we didn't already see two separate instances (one user submitted) of "oil painting." The higher the detail the more it's noticed. And Brian from Anandtech mentioned it in his review.

"HTC seems to go for more aggressive noise reduction which occasionally leaves that oil painting look."​

And it's a family tradition. From my ex-One X.
[Galaxy S 4 General] aliveon2legs:
Without zooming any further, I actually think these two photos would look nearly identical if a couple of points of sharpness were taken off of the One.
[Galaxy S 4 General] BarryH_GEG:
We're blurring two conversations. This current discussion was based on the One vs. iP4 pics that Hung posted where he asked about the differences in detail between the two phones using similar pics. My response was the differences shouldn't have been that great because of a less than a MP difference between the sensors which is why I brought up post-processing. The triptych I posted wasn't meant to slander the One; it was the only similar pic I could find that included the i9000 which also had a 5MP camera.

Regardless of our discussions here how both the SGS4 and One perform in real life and against owner's expectations will be known in a couple of weeks. And people are going to buy the phone they want no matter which camera is attached to it. And then they’ll swear that camera’s best whether it is or not. That’s just the way XDA goes. ;)

Case in point. Here are two posts on the same page of a thread in the One forum talking about the One X vs. One’s camera performance. Hard to believe they are talking about the same phones.