yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] nocomp:
i agree with shasarak, i used to work as photographer, and with our 5mp it was enough for pictured used in public advertising (5 meters * 3 meters)
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] jonatton:
Yeah pretty much what shasarak said. Thank god HTC had some bloody sense to not load it with more needless MPs as a marketing gimmick.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danw_oz:
DSLR stands for Digital Single Lens Reflex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_single-lens_reflex_camera, if you are up to it you can read the section 2.6 Larger sensor sizes and better image quality

I don't really understand what you are asking or in fact even trying to say, but if I have it right http://www.flickr.com/photos/dan-wilson/ Is my photography site, Thanks.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] strip419:
Nokia's pure view ends up producing a 5mp picture only thing is that it puts the quality of a 41mp(resolution) in to a smaller frame so when u zoom in u don't loose picture quality.....HTC one does sumthing similar but zooming in will reduce quality drastically.....@ the end pictures are clear enough to see every detail in the full frame no need to zoom in, its a good tech for those who understand....as for the iPhone's wonderful camera(like it or not) its just a perfect cocktail of very good lenses(which in a way let in lots of light, main reason y it looks bluish and not purplish) plus good apature and good sensors......megapixels =size , good lens+apature+sensore = great picture quality.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] jkforce:
Thx for explanation.

Finally someone with knowledge and sound reasoning. People really need to cool down while in discussion. At the end of the day, it will be just another phone and it will not wake up next day and go to work for you. :good:
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
Great pics in there Dan, you've been some amazingly photogenic places!
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danw_oz:
Cheers, yes I was prviledged to live in such beautiful places, it does help.

---------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

Agreed, it is almost as stupid as their campain I mentioned earlier, for the first HTC One "HTC One Versus DSLR Images, Can You Spot The Difference?" definately not as a 364x268 image, or on my full HD screen is almost a thumb nail ;).

I am also in agreeance with others here about how many megapixels needed for a phone. More megapixels only required for larger prints or cropping to make a print, and lets be honest, what do you use your phone camera for??? Posting on facebook or social media sites is mostly my guess? none of which even support display of 4Mp

How many times have you cropped a phone photo or printed it larger than A4 type size, I would suggest almost nobody. Typically if you required a crop a shot, you didn't have enough optical zoom on your camera ;), this is where a point and shoot shines over a phone.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Amritttt:
So seriously what is it xperia z camera or htc one camera specs wise

Sent From My Galaxy S3
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riyal:
If you ask me the both have their unique advantage and disadvantages.

If what HTC says is correct then HTC One should have better images while sacrificing details when zoomed in.

While the Xperia Z is the exact opposite.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] danw_oz:
So what are you referring too, shot displayed on the phone screen, or on a computer, because looking at these on a phone screen will not tell you anything.

I would agree with your comment about colour accuracy, and I would say that out of all phones I have seen it is very good.

I believe Sony's problem so far is software for the image processing, its too aggressive for noise reduction
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] RCJ89:
Well seeing as it was in the shop. It was each phones screen I had to look at and the htc was showing sharper images with more natural looking colours
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Radiognome:
Hey Guys everyone keeps asking about the HTC ONE Ultrapixel camera, so while I was at the London launch I took a couple photographs!

To see more http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolizm/8499082590/

Lastly if you are looking to buy one of these great phones why not join us at the HTC ONE Users Group over at Flickr to share your photos and discuss all things 'ONE' http://www.flickr.com/groups/htc-one/
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riyal:
Hmmm don't you think it could also be because of the screen instead of the camera? Since obviously the Z was rumored to have an average screen and lesser than the ones used by HTC.

I'm not defending sony in any way but they are already a professional when it comes to optics manufacturing.

Anyways if it is indeed true then great! Can't wait till march 15 already preordered on clove.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] RCJ89:
Was defo not the screen becuase the iphone 5 also had slightly sharper looking images than the Z aswell (only slightly) also the screen on the Z is a fantastic screen imo.

To tell the truth I have always measured images by what I see on the screen on the phone then compared them on the laptop. For example last year I done galaxy s3 vs xperia t vs one x camera samples on my latop and the samples produced by the one x were better than the other two imo. it was the same story when I looked at the pics on each phone aswell.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] cold22:
Isn't HTC misleading the consumer by using the term 4 Ultrapixel but in fact it 4 Megapixel? or to be more correct shouldn't it be market as 4 Megapixel F2.0?
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
Frankly speaking, yes, they are. Why they're doing it is understandable, but the decision to use the term pixel is ill-advised.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] TramainM:
You must have saw a biased review bud, that camera in HDR mode puts nokia to shame, and in low light the camera is even more stunning. Here is a sight I found with some HTC ONE Shots on it, pretty impressive.

http://www.phonearena.com/news/HTC-...echnical-comparison_id40042#10-Nexus-4-sample
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Shasarak:
Well, it's a marketing term, clearly; what they're trying to do is to get across the fact that one of their megapixels isn't the same as one of someone else's megapixels. :)

It's not just that the aperture is larger (although it is) it's also that the physical pixel on the sensor is larger. Compared to a 13MP sensor, each pixel is more than three times the area, which means it collects more light. Combined with the larger aperture, that means the picture is much less noisy at the same light level - or achieves the same level of noise with much less light.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Dmastax1x:
can't say much from personal experience, but the pictures in this thread show that the HTC One does NOT have the best smartphone camera. Just sayin

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2160567

anyways... once i figure out a way to leave sprint im getting this phone for its overall awesomeness
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
Which is a bit disingenuous. Their megapixels are just the same as anybody else's megapixels. They're not making their own sensors and there's no unique tech behind it; they''re just buying an off-the-shelf sensor.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riyal:
It's not a off the shelf sensor. I agree with them that it is indeed a special sensor they are using. The only issue with the technology they implemented is yes it is unique and is on the right path but is not enough to compete with the 2013 cameras.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
Want to put some money on that? What expertise does HTC have in sensor design and fabbing?

They are almost certainly buying it in.

Please, enlighten us. What is "special" or "unique"?

It's not the first 2um pixel. We've seen those before.

It's not the first 2um pixel in a phone. We've seen those before, too. (And larger.)

It's not a newly-developed technology. (It's a standard backside-illuminated CMOS sensor, just with fewer and larger pixels than are *currently* common.)

It is, essentially, the same technology everybody else is using, but with the pixel sizes and pixel counts everybody was using a few years ago.

That's not unique, or even close to it. Unusual or different, yes. Better, arguably it could be for some important metrics; it will without question be worse for other important metrics. (It's a trade-off, like most things in life.) But it's not unique.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riyal:
Right now I can't prove that I am just basing facts on HTC's statements. And I doubt they would lie we are not living in an age where people are ignorant yet on technology and I am sure HTC would be aware of the ever increasing techy people doing the reviews on blogs. And that is a big let down on their marketing if ever they are telling lies. Hence let's wait for the kernel source to look up what are they really using.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] superchilpil:
I'm not disagreeing but can you give an example of a phone with a similar or larger pixel?

Slithered from my HTC One X+
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riyal:
Nokia n900 uses 2.8um on their 4megapixel camera.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Hunt3r.j2:
The HTC One will have about the same sharpness when it comes to comparing to other cameras, but the big difference is sensitivity and dynamic range. Because the pixels are much bigger than the pixels in a 13 MP sensor for phones, the result is that daylight shots with large contrast (bright sky and shaded area, indoors and outside, etc...) will be much better even without HDR combination, and low light will be much better than competitors' solutions.

Oh, and if you want to have an 8MP camera with same pixel size as the HTC One, the resulting camera module will be the same size as the 808 Pureview. Food for thought.

http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/supterlowlight.png (Also, this is an image comparison.)
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
No, it won't.

In good light, it will have a significantly lower resolution than its rivals. That's because for every two pixels in any given row or column that it can place on a subject, a 13-megapixel rival will place three. (A 13 megapixel phone has 1.54 times the linear resolution, all other things being equal.)

And when you consider that your subject will be three dimensional, not two dimensional, for every 100 pixels the HTC One places on a subject, the 13-megapixel phone will place 237 pixels on the same subject.

So it's utter nonsense to say it will have the same sharpness, unless you believe the 13-megapixel phones cannot resolve more than four megapixels due to their lenses or processing, which clearly isn't true. (They're limited, but nowhere near that limited, in good light.)

The point isn't that it is just as sharp; it isn't, and never could be. The point is that it doesn't NEED to be as sharp, because what we have in current camera phones is way beyond overkill.

You could take a photo from an Xperia Z and print it at 13.76 x 10.32 inches, and you'd STILL have 300 ppi resolution. Based on 20/20 vision, you would need to be closer than twelve inches to be able to distinguish individual pixels. Even with 20/10 vision (that's twice as good as nominal), you *still* couldn't distinguish individual pixels from more than 23 inches away.

How many people do you know who are making prints that big from their camera phones, and viewing them from that close by? And how many do you know who are heavily cropping their camera phone images on a regular basis? Very few, I'd wager.

Which means that the resolution of 13 megapixels that we're at today is completely and utterly insane. We don't need anywhere *near* that much. The HTC One camera has plenty of resolution unless you're a keen photographer, and if you are, you probably shouldn't be taking photos with a phone in the first place.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Hunt3r.j2:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6777/understanding-camera-optics-smartphone-camera-trends/3

Physics says that we can't resolve pixels that small with the optical system in a smartphone.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
Rubbish. There are limits to what you can achieve with a smartphone lens, but they are nowhere near as low as four megapixels.

Want proof? Download this typical eight megapixel smartphone image:

http://connect.dpreview.com/reviews...ii/comparision/daylightstudio_samsungsiii.jpg

Now make a duplicate of that image, and downsample to the 1,520 pixel frame height of the Zoe camera in the HTC One. Now upsample back up to 2,448 pixels. Then compare the image you shrank with the original image.

Assuming that there was no more than four megapixels of data in the original image, there will be no noticeable difference between the two. But in actual fact, there's a pretty significant difference.

Attached is a crop of just such a comparison. Absolutely nothing was done except downsampling and immediately upsampling as instructed. Obviously I've had to save as a gif for the animation, so a little detail is lost to the dither and lower color depth, but that's true for both before and after, so doesn't explain the difference.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Shasarak:
No they aren't. They're bigger. :cool:

To put it crudely, the larger pixel size on the sensor, combined with a larger-than-usual aperture size (f/2.0), means each pixel on the sensor receives several times as much light as a pixel in a 13MP sensor on a rival phone; that means it has better signal-to-noise ratio, which means either that you can have the same amount of noise at lower light-levels (and take pictures in dimmer light than other cameras can manage) or that you can have less noise at the same light level.

Yes, there have been other phones that have larger pixels, but not very many of them. Someone mentioned the Nokia N900, which I can't at the moment find a pixel size for online; but with the obvious exception of the Nokia 808, I'm not aware of any current phone that has. (Even the highly regarded Nokia N8 was smaller).

Visitors to this thread might find it interesting to check out HTC's white paper: http://dl3.htc.com/downloads/white-paper/HTC-One-Ultrapixel-Whitepaper.pdf

There is actually a bit more going on with the camera than the larger sensor pixels and aperture. For example, AFAIK not all that many phones have Optical Image Stabilisation (as distinct from the Digital variety). They also brag about a typical autofocus speed of < 200ms (which is fairly speedy); and a few other things.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] ydoucare:
From the samples I've seen from the camera, i'm not impressed at all, actually pretty disappointed.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Shasarak:
That's not a very fair comparison.

It's hardly surprising that if you downscale an image, then scale it back up again, you'll lose detail; but the camera in the HTC One doesn't start with an 8MP image taken from a Galaxy S3 and downscale it, it generates its own 4MP image from scratch, which will have a different dynamic range, different (likely lower) noise, possibly less camera shake (because of the OIS), a different colour balance, different compression artefacts, and so on. It might be slightly fairer if you started with a very high-quality, very high-res photo (taken with a good digital SLR, perhaps) and downscaled it to 8MP in one case and 4MP in the other, remembering to add more simulated noise to the 8MP image...

...but then you have to ask: what level of zoom are you viewing the final image at? The monitor I'm looking at right now has a resolution of 1600x900, for example: to get a sensible view of both pictures, I'll have to downscale both of them to 1600x900. Once you do that (and bear in mind that this means the step of upscaling from 4MP to 8MP is no longer relevant) I think you'll find the difference between the two images is a lot more subtle.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] radiotrib:
And apart from that the photo is littered with Jpeg artefacts .. look at the lettering at the edge of the b/w definition card on the original. If you start downsizing and upsizing jpeg to jpeg you'll end up with artificial pixellation caused by the compression algorithm too. I do enough work in Photoshop to make me totally avoid jpeg unlss there is no viable alternative. Post a raw or at least a tiff and lets start resizing that instead.

Don't get me wrong though. In the perfect world the more you have, the better your photo will be ... as long as they are BIG pixels. Just take a look at the Leaf Credo sensors used by Mamiya ... probably one of the greatest digital cameras in existence today ... the most popular CCD has 60 Megapixels ... but they are spread over a ccd measuring 53.9 x 40.4 mm (2x1.5 inches) which allows for huge pixels (6 microns) ... also take a look at the price :) ($36,495.00 ... but you get free shipping) .. and that's just the sensor, you still need to buy the camera body. But even with a sensor that size and quality, without the depth of the body and the vast lens of the Mamiya, you couldn't focus an image onto such a huge area. You want a slim phone? .. you get a tiny sensor and a minute camera focal length.

So phone camera's are all about compromise, and in my opinion, for what its worth, reducing the pixel count and increasing size of the pixels enhances the ability of each pixel to transfer information. By increasing the amount of excitation per pixel (i.e. the number of photons hitting it while the shutter is open) you increase the software's chances of defining finer colour differences - higher maximum excitation = bigger voltage range = bigger detectable variance ... It the same sort of thing as the increase the data capacity of a network created by increasing the carrier wave bandwidth. It's simple maths. The wider the variance, the finer you can detect the intermediate levels ... so the more detail you can extract. I'm pretty sure I could write a bayesian algorithm to split one 'htc ultra' pixel into a three by three matrix, produce a less 'pixellated' meta-view, and still provide a more accurate, precise image than the average 13 Mpxl cellphone .. except that my algorithm would produce a 4x9 = 38Mpxl image ... Is that how you want to measure MEGA pixels ??? CCD or Software .. makes no difference really.

(btw - this is all speculation really .. the only CCD results I ever got chance to look at closely were from the Hubble telescope and the Gaia mission - which is still on the ground .. Google it if you're interested)

Yes, I'm an HTC Elevate member ... but it doesn't make me biased one way or the other. I happen to really like HTC kit, but I'm not a professional photographer (my wife certainly is), nor do I use my phone for anything except snapshots and recording progress on my other hobbies, but I do use it in low light a lot (in the garage) so I will be very interested to see how the One camera performs when I get it in mid-March ... and I will get it ... then I can test the camera for myself.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] knoxploration:
But they're the exact same size anybody else's pixels would be, using the same sensor size and pixel count.

Go back and look at phones from three or four years or so back, and you'll find plenty.

---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

Actually, it's more than fair, because a four megapixel phone is not going to capture a perfect four megapixels of data. By downsampling from a higher resolution to four megapixels *for an image shot in ideal condition, as this sample is*, you'll have a higher quality four megapixel image in terms of linear resolution than if you'd just shot it at four megapixels in the first place.

And we were not talking about dynamic range, noise, etc. We were talking about detail, because the nonsensical claim was made that it is impossible to capture more resolution than a four megapixel image with a camera phone lens. That is simply not true, as amply demonstrated by my previous image, which clearly shows there is more detail in the image captured at eight megapixels than the one captured at eight megapixels, downsampled to four megapixels, and then upsampled back to eight megapixels.

But you know what? It doesn't have to be from a phone. Find any sharply-focused image at eight megapixel or greater resolution, downsample it to eight megapixels, and then downsample to four and back to eight. In every case, the eight megapixel image will show more detail than the four megapixel upsample will. I just chose a phone image because it is a proof of the point; it was captured with a camera phone lens and is clearly proven to have more than four megapixels of detail.

1920 x 1200, and I have said all along that more than 4-6 megapixels is overkill. However, I am demonstrating that the previous suggestion that you cannot resolve more than four megapixels with a camera phone lens is completely and provably false.

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 AM ----------

Do you know how I know you didn't read my post or pay any real attention to the image?

It wasn't a JPEG. It was a GIF. And I stated why it was a gif. And I provided a link to the original image, to make the comparison yourself if you want. Plus directions on how to do it.

And yes, the original image is a JPEG, but so is every camera phone image on the market. No camera phone offers uncompressed output, be it raw, tiff, or other.

It was a perfectly valid comparison, for the narrow window in which it was intended: demonstrating that the claim you cannot resolve more than four megapixels with a camera phone lens is rubbish. You can resolve significantly more than four megapixels, you just lose in other areas to do so.

Like anything, it is a compromise. HTC has chosen to compromise resolution for signal to noise ratio; others have chosen to compromise signal to noise for resolution. End of.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] radiotrib:
... and it was the original photograph to which I was referring ... It's not a good photo to begin with. Progressive reprocessing will only serve to increase the artefacts.

Your point about resolving > 4 Mpxls is valid ... however, given about 2um pixel size, it would only be possible to resolve about 4 Mpxls on the typical CCD in a phone camera, i.e. a max. size 1/3 inch detector. Of course you can drive up the pixel count by making the pixels smaller ... but then were back to the detector excitation point ...

The main point that both you and I make, and agree upon, is that it's all about compromise. This is the crunch for the entire argument, and you summary of it is very clear for anyone to read. I'd guess that at least 95% of the buying public are not tekkies, or photographers. They whip out their cameras at weddings and parties and snap away. I'm betting that those with an HTC One will actually like the results more than those with an 13+ Mpxl CCD in their phone. They won't be interested in the finer details of the technology, just the fact that they can actually see granny smiling at the other end of the table in the snapshot they took at the poorly lit restaurant last night.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
[One (M7) Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Riyal:
Not that I disagree with knoxploration it's just radiotrib got the main point of what are the general uses of a phone camera is. And yes he got every point correct. In a real life situation that is indeed most of my main uses of the phone camera. We don't actually use the phone camera to be an artist or whatever photo contest it is. It did get it's name "point and shoot" for a reason. And radiotrib describe it perfectly.