yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus 4 General] _-livio-_:
no idea about the optimus, but nexus is missing the shielding
[Nexus 4 General] younix258:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Ah, i see what youre saying... Maybe a brave soul among us will shield it with some alumimum foil or something and see what happens
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
Hi everybody, sorry for the delay I though this post was lost in forum archives and nobody was really interested...

Anyway, I will try to reply all of you one by one if I can help in anyway.

Quadrant does not shows real improvement (~4800pts) (just like linpack) because it seems more to be software related problems (Quadrant is also very short to run, so no real time for throttling), but some other bench are more influenced by thermal throttling. For example I get an improvement with Antutu (+15/20% from ~15000 to ~18000pts).

For example in GLbenchmark, I score what Anandtech had when running in the freezer, so it really seems to solve the thermal throttling problem

These bench will not impress those who have custom kernel/ROM/etc but they do show thermal throttling improvement. I personnaly think that custom ROM/kernel + hardmod may bring the best out this beast ;)

I am so far on full Stock, at least concerning the Software (I wait to 'stabilise' my tablet before playing with the N4 kernel/ROM/etc...)
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
You are correct copper is better for thermal conductivity but I was recommending aluminium as it is easier to find, you can cut it with scissors (what you can not do with copper) and I am pretty sure that differences may be minimal (and still much better than pads). Do what ever you want, but I wouldn't loose time to sand the surface as the PoP structure in much more limiting the heat transfer than the surface finish.

Sorry I missed the glue spot question. What is it about?

The copper piece is hold in place by the pocket in the metallic frame, on edges, while thermal paste prevent in anyway any displacement.

So far I remember the pocket in the housing is about 14,5 x 14,5mm (15 x 15mm with rounding) where the chip is more 13 x 13mm. The height is a bit more than 0.5mm (let say 0.6mm) but I did not wanted to add any stress between motherboard and screen (and thermal paste is enough to fill 0.1mm gap). As it is a PoP, height may also differ from a motherboard to another.

The frame, not the motherboard, keep it in place, but yes, this is the idea (+ 'sucking effect' of thermal paste).

Are you saying my solution is not elegant? :(

:D

I am sure not as much as I would like to... :fingers-crossed:
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
I can only +1, opening the nexus4 is absolutely not challenging (technically), BUT you have to do it quietly, without stress (have a beer before), with proper tools and with lots of time (you may need 30min the first time, so foresee 1 full hour in you time schedule). I also recommend that you read several time IFixIt teardown until it is all clear in your mind (and they recommend a board to note and store screws).

I personally wouldn't recommend to add any stress/pressure between motherboard and screen, even if thermal pad may not create a huge one. Thermal pads (like for RAM) have a foam structure and are foreseen to be compressed. So if you choose a 0.5mm thick one, it may not be compressed and may have poor/bad efficiency (as the pocket is 0.5mm).

So far I did not find any problem/inconvenient/issue with this mod, screen is still 'as new' (hopefully!!!! :fingers-crossed: ).

On the other way I would lie if I would say that it bring any smoothness to daily use because, even before moding, I considered that my N4 was already butter smooth in my daily use.

The real benefits, and why I do not regret this mod, is that I do not have any more this hot spot in the back of the phone as soon as I browse a few internet page and launch a 2D game. Even under heavy usage, the phone get hot, but much less than before.

I am absolutely not offended, and I already pointed it out in the first posts.

So, 1 full hour posting, I am done for tonight I will try to answer rest tomorrow :)
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Could you install System Tuner and keep an eye on the CPU temperature please? I'm quite interested in results.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
I can confirm that screen never gets really hot, at least not as hot as the back cover can get (without this mod).

I tried to make it refereed in the mod list/index, without success.

SoC temperature is not really the issue, more the battery one.

1. The SoC heat is not transferred to the battery through metallic frame but directly through battery connector. This is what I tried to show with the simulation. By the way, after moding, battery temperature is much lower than before, while it spread SoC's heat on frame much better.

2. Agree, air is pretty good insulator, and pocket was probably to keep screen insulated from SoC heat.

3. Throttling is induced by battery temperature (37C and 40C). Not sure about it, but SoC may have a Tj between 80 or 100C (so not really an issue).

Battery is not that easy to remove from frame, it is completely glued (check IFixIt teardown).

Sorry I don't get it. What do you mean?

In previous posts I proposed some Aluminium sheets that you can buy for few bucks. Just Google "0.5mm aluminium sheet" and purchase smallest and cheapest one.

Metal (copper or aluminium) with thermal paste will be better than pads.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
Thanks, I did not knew it. Interesting because GS3 screen is also behind, and there is a dedicated pocket. (Step 7)

Very interesting also. The mottled metallic stuff may conduct a little bit heat on frame.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
I am also a bit speculating, but I noticed throttling in stability test each time battery was reaching respectively 37C and 40C. But for sure, it still can be a coincidence.

Personally, if I was a LG/Google engineer, I would set throttling both when Soc and/or battery reach too high temperature. Too high temperature decrease lifespan of both SoC and battery. The question is which one reach its limit at first.

Try to manufacture a square of 14 x 14mm and 0.5mm thick. Then prepare a piece of sand paper and you can adjust it while mounting it.

Thank you! :o

No shielding on N4 on SoC, but shielding on Radio-frequency chips, which make sense, at least to me. I am far away to be an expert but I am not sure interferences could be an issue for the SoC (CPU, GPU, I/O...), I guess more for chips featuring DAC.
[Nexus 4 General] meangreenie:
Im very tempted to do this, at least with a half way solution, by using a thermal pad.

It seems taking just the board out isn't too hard, no need for battery removement ect.
[Nexus 4 General] PhilipL:
Hi

The service advisory has already been posted here somewhere, this shows a modification that service centres should do, which is to stick some foil tape over the exposed components on a ribbon circuit board to help reduce the noise (note that the notice doesn't state what noise but we can guess, it also doesn't say fix, only reduce). Note that using aluminium foil or any other metal will most likely short something out. The correct fix is using a special sticky foil that is insulation on the side that sticks to the components.

As for cooling, the Qualcomm SoC is underneath that Samsung RAM chip that this thread is talking about. Sticking extra heat sinks on the RAM chip is going to have a limited effect in cooling the SoC underneath. It might buy a few extra minutes before throttling when understress, but you will never stop the throttling because you can' remove the heat quick enough from the SoC through the RAM chip to the housing.

Regards

Phil
[Nexus 4 General] el_charlie:
Any news about this??

I can't find a copper or aluminum pad. The closest thing I can find is a small coin. I'll have to pass sand paper to smooth the surface.

Cheers!
[Nexus 4 General] Visa Declined:
Last night I set out to do some gaming with FPS meter running, just to see for myself how badly I would be affected by throttling. I played NFS:MW, AVP: Evolution, and Vice City. During all of the gameplay I did, which spanned from around 7pm to 9pm, never once did I notice a drop in framerates that should incur if my phone was being throttled.

I've felt my phone heat up during benchmarks, and I've witnessed throttling first hand during these tests. I don't care about benchmarks though, I only care that my phone isn't throttling during normal use. Games on my phone actually look and play with a better fps then they do on my Nexus 7. This phone is really awesome.
[Nexus 4 General] el_charlie:
So, you're saying that the throttle didn't happen and the mod is NOT applied on your phone?

I'll take a look into that.

As far as performance goes, Temple Run 2 ran more fluid on my old Galaxy Nexus except when it began lagging a lot. I'm talking about constant FPS. In the Nexus 4, I feel the framerate lower but with a more stable experience, because it is constant. I also don't get a fluid experience in Real Racing 3.

The only super fluid game is Subway Surfers.

Cheers!
[Nexus 4 General] younix258:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Throttling is of the cpu, games use mostly the gpu.

Throttling only brings down the frequency to 1026mhz afaik, buts its still a quad core 1ghz lol so dont expect it to just freeze up on you. Its likely youre either being throttled and dont feel the difference or just not being throttled because the cpu is hardly being used at all.
[Nexus 4 General] justFaisal:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Does anybody uses one of those big plastic/rubber cases? (I think otterbox or something like that, idk). The rubber might take some heat away from the glass back also, if anyone has a case, do you notice any difference with and without a case?

Use a temp monitor and do the same task with and without the case and see if the battery temp goes up with same speed or is it slow with the case on!!!

It would be really helpful if someone tries it :). I've never used/bought a case so i can't do it myself!
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
I installed both tempmonitor and System Tuner, however first one reports only battery temperature while the second one, only SoC one. So unfortunately, I could not get both temperatures at the same time.

Anyway, here are the results after ~6min30sec of burn;

The drop in frequency and temperature visible on Sytem Tuner is because I stupidly left screen to go on sleep...

About which temperature is inducing CPU throttling, once again it is difficult to say without having both temperatures visible at the same time, but here is a new hint;

SoC reached 62C and did not started throttling. I do think that both temperatures can induce throttling, but it appears, at least in my case, that battery is the critical one.

Throttling finally append after ~13min, while SoC temperature was ~61/62C and battery one ~37C.

You can notice how efficient is now throttling, reducing immediately SoC temperature of ~6/7C.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
I have a different opinion; APQ8064 and RAM are bounded with a 64bits width Bus, which bring a pretty efficient thermal connection between the two packages.

In first post you can also see that temperature almost arrives to an asymptote just before throttling, so I am pretty confident that with a undervolting of 100/200mV you can run steady state without throttling. (heat is related to the square of Voltage).

+1, stability test is the "most extrem" situation you can hardly find in daily use. This mod brings mostly comfort in heat distribution.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
Hmm... I do not think it can really solve the problem, the rubber case may bring some heat capacity (some mass) but may also reduce cooling as it has a poor thermal conductivity.
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Thanks a lot for follow up. Could you do one simple test for me please? Open system Tuner, leave it in background and just open Google search and keep typing random letters quickly for a minute and then check CPU temp. All that from idling, not after stress test. Thanks again.
[Nexus 4 General] younix258:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Temp monitor has the ability to show cpu temperature (first pic), all you have to do is check the option in the settings (second pic). It also has the ability to display cpu temp as a notification for which you can control the refresh rate as well (second pic). In the second pic you can see the little number on the top left side of my screen showing my cpu temp (notification).
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
Sorry for being a pain, but I tried to play with options but it seems that I need either Root, custom kernel, or full (paying) software version because I could not see CPU temp.

I will give another try.

Edit: When selecting option, it says it needs "tasmanian_Droids custom kernel".
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
I couldn't get System Tuner to continue to log temperature while I was "benchmarking" but difference between before/after SoC temperature is between 3 to 5°C (first try 23->26°C, last try 28->32°C).

I proceed several times, with Google now and with a browser (Dolphin) on Google home page, typing with two thumbs, so at least 2 to 4 letters per second
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Hooooooooold on. You are saying that max temperature was 32c?:eek: is that in ambient room temperature?

Thats good 5-6c less than what I'm getting. I had pcb replaced, results were similar with previous CPU.

Has your battery life increased since doing the mod?
[Nexus 4 General] younix258:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Oh yeah, i bought it. I didnt know there was a free version. When i do this mod, ill take some good accurate measurements etc. No worries :)

Edit: oh and you dont need tasmanian kernel lol, works fine on franco's (as you can see) and im sure many others.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
Yes it was, on the fifth run. Room temperature was probably around 20°C.

Now it is 23.5°C and I let System to run for about 5min, so you can consider that system is idle, but not sleeping (Wifi On, Google/Facebook sync, screen on, System tuner logging and displaying Ads etc...), what you can verify by checking System Tuner activity and frequency graphs (average load appears to be 20/25% while frequency oscillate between 384Mhz and 1,51Ghz).

During this "idle-low-activity" phase, SoC is between 29 and 31°C.

I guess you can easily reproduce the same for comparison (even if I guess you have a much more optimised&clean OS/kernel than I do).

Concerning battery life, it is fair to say that reducing SoC temperature reduce leakage current, but as I do not have precise battery bench (especially before/after Mod) so, I will prevent myself to give any impression (that may be highly subjective).

But for sure, this mod should help concerning under-volting.
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Looks like I'm doing it. Will be great for the summer.

Could someone do Google/typing test as a control subject?

Wake the phone, open System Tuner, browse Web or Tapatalk for a bit to get phone to run at normal awaken temp, and then open Google search and type random letters with two thumbs for 20-30 seconds non stop them switch to system Tuner immediately in recents. What's the CPU temperature?
[Nexus 4 General] younix258:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

As you control you mean without doing the mod? I wouldnt mind doing this, but i havent dont the mod yet
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Without the mod yes. Basically need a control test to see if CPU temp is as high as mine (before the mod).
[Nexus 4 General] MrBelter:
My Nexus 4 (fully stock) scores 30fps without having to freeze it or take it apart :confused:
[Nexus 4 General] haloimplant:
Curious. Can you get the same results after 2 or more consecutive runs? I have been wondering if later revisions of Nexus 4 hardware would improve this issue.

As it was in the reviews, I opted not to buy it but wait for the S4 or HTC One. It may be true that most of today's games frame limit before throttling the N4, but that may not be true in the future.

If it were fixed I would have to re-evaluate my choice (especially if the S4 is also Snapdragon 600 which isn't much faster GPU then the S4 Pro).
[Nexus 4 General] draugaz:
My N4 (rev10) started to run significantly cooler after OTA to 4.2.2

Before that on 4.2.1 it was getting hot even on "simple" GPU loads, things like "ski safari". On 4.2.2 and same loads it is barely getting warm.
[Nexus 4 General] MrBelter:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

I will give that a go for you mate and let you know, I just saw your result and installed the benchmark and ran the full test (I got my N4 about 4 weeks ago so it's maybe been sorted out)
[Nexus 4 General] MrBelter:
OK i have run the full benchmark twice with no time in between for my N4 to cool down and i got 30FPS on both runs (it is also in a TPU case so that will retain heat)
[Nexus 4 General] el_charlie:
I agree,

Ran the test onscreen and offscreen and got 44 and 30 FPS respectively.

I'm still tempted to do the mod.

Cheers!
[Nexus 4 General] el_charlie:
Any news about this???

Cheers!
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

OP, since you seem to have experience with these things I thought I will ask you.

I've searched around and thermal pads are widely available and seem to be the easiest option here. However, it's sticky. So once stuck between ram and body, wouldn't it be too dangerous to remove it? I mean there would be no way to insert something to "cut" through it and jus pulling it off is bound to damage pcb. Any thoughts?

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Sent from my fridge. Make: LG Model: N⁴
[Nexus 4 General] el_charlie:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

I've removed the heatsink of all my video cards and the thermal pads are not sticky at all. They're only sticky to one side, normally the heatsink side.

So, you can place the sticky side to the magnesium frame.

Cheers!
[Nexus 4 General] younix258:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Idk if youve ever used thermal pads but theyre really not that sticky. Its mostly suction and the materials soft
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Thanks guys. Thermal pad it is. :thumbup:

When i get round to doing it. :rolleyes:

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Sent from my fridge. Make: LG Model: N⁴
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
You already have a full bunch of answers, but I add mine.

So far I know 2 types of thermal pads, the foam structure one, that you can cut with scissors (Thermal Tape). It just look like double face tape, and you find it for example on video cards, for memory chips contacts (usually white/cream colour). Second type (Thermal Pad) is a thick layer of thermal paste with high viscosity, that you usually find pre-applied on heatsinks, some can be cut some others not (usually grey colour). Best thermal performance is usually achieved by second.

Risks when removing is quite low but exist, (also with thermal paste), because of adhesive and/or suction effect. Trick is not to lift perpendicular to surface, but with high angle and/or to twist (which is N4 case may be complicated).
[Nexus 4 General] Steve46xda:
Can anybody tell me if the throttling problem is present on rev 11 and 12?
[Nexus 4 General] molesarecoming:
reading through this i made a couple of consecutive runs with gl benchmark 2.5 egypt HD c24z16 offscreen - no mod applied, absolutely no pauses in between.

30, 30, 30, 29, 27, 23, 19, 19, 19.

its quite a drop in the end. can anyone repeat this with mods applied? would be interesting to see how it differs.
[Nexus 4 General] nascasho:
Just make sure you get Thermal Pads and not Thermal Tape, those are the ones that are sticky.

I made that mistake a few years back for an 8800GT waterblock that I used on the vrm's... they were attached to the tape when I removed the block lol. Bye bye card.
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Exactly my point. Thanks for details.

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Sent from my fridge. Make: LG Model: N⁴
[Nexus 4 General] vollmilch:
well done OP!

so i did this myself and used arctic silver 5 thermal compound (of which i used way too much i guess ;) ) and these copper pads http://www.ebay.de/itm/261026712775?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 which fit perfectly!

I also applied a little of the compound to the shield at the right side when youre looking down on the phone and between the upper shielding and the screen ribbon which has that copper foil on top.

havent done any comparisions to your finds yet but i can do some if asked.

i hope you understood my english ejaculate :D

cheers, ric
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Re: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

You feel any difference?

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Sent from my fridge. Make: LG Model: N⁴
[Nexus 4 General] vollmilch:
AW: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Sure. There has to be an effect. It takes longer to throttle. It can hardly reach 2nd "throttle mode" so it's more effective than before.

The heat is more spread over the back than at only one spot.

Gesendet von meinem Nexus 4 mit Tapatalk 2
[Nexus 4 General] T-119a:
AW: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

Gl Benchmark 2.5 Egypt HD c24z16 offscreen with piece of copper and thermal paste.

30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30...

It doesn't throttle at all:confused:. With Google stock 4.2.2 kernel.

Is it normal that the benchmark only run with 2 cores at 1512 mhz?
[Nexus 4 General] 2.0:
GLBenchmark is a GPU demanding benchmark app so there should be not as heavy CPU load. So yeah, It is quite normal for not all cores to be used during a non-CPU demanding application.
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
So gents, after some reading up (last and ONLY time I had to deal with thermal stuff was few years ago when i removed cpu heatsink) I've come to a conclusion that if anything, copper and paste is the best option.

Somehow adding copper "feels" better. Also, paste in theory is easier to remove than pad.

I've chosen Arctic Silver Ceramique, due to it being non conductive (which AS5 also is) and non CAPACITIVE (whit AS5 is not).

I went for this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-Dell...ther_Computing_Networking&hash=item337f1b7ae9

and this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Arctic-Si...ther_Computing_Networking&hash=item3f0b300bf0

£5 all in all is not bad i guess. :)

Will report back once done.

One Q. How much space is left once copper pad is in? How thin the layer should be? I'm thinking of going as thin as pos on ram and then ficker onto the frame.
[Nexus 4 General] troun2000:
Quite interesting tests. Do you have any idea of room temperature range for fair comparison?

Could you also, both of you, try to re-do the "stability test" in the first post, in order to check if throttling happens approximately at the same time with/without mod that it is reported in the table?

No real reason that it disappeared. If you own one of these revision, you can check it yourself by installing 'stability' test and comparing with the table in the first post.

Pads Vs Tape; You just explained with 2 words where I needed a whole paragraph... :good:

vollmilch, T-119a => Nice to hear that you made the mod, and even more that it seems also effective.
[Nexus 4 General] vollmilch:
AW: Nexus 4; Investigating thermal throttling [HardMod]

This morning I did a quick stability test. Starting temp of battery was about 21 celcius.

First screenshot was the moment the throttling started. After that, the temp went down and then slowly up again (2nd screenshot).

edit: AS5 needs time to settle, ill test this one again in a few days.

Gesendet von meinem Nexus 4 mit Tapatalk 2