yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[HTC One S] Behold_this:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

I actually think that would help in the case of your screenshots. Back up your internal "sdcard", format it and go from there. If that fixes your issue only restore the files you absolutely can't live without back onto internal memory and if you're going to go to all that trouble, I know you said you already have done it, but it couldn't hurt to start fresh with the ROM again as well.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Thanks Behold, you're a pretty cool guy. ;) (I've started fresh like 6 times today so it won't hurt to do so again.)

Still 0 bytes in mtp... they work fine in gallery and in twrp mount. I'm so confused. XD
[HTC One S] Roundtableprez:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Because its was suppose to simplify my life :P but in all seriousness I flashed the ota and it caused my phone to bootloop. But the weird part is it would boot completely to sense then reboot. I guess ill just stay on 2.0.0 I don't feel like resetting everything up lol
[HTC One S] XmechaniX:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Can not confirm. No issue with supersu
[HTC One S] mliou:
Is there a way to open google now instead of voice search when home button is pressed down (which is set to open google now)?
[HTC One S] boardlord:
Lucky you :) However, I don't want to risk another reinstall :)

BTW, how did you install it? Flash zip in recovery, or simple Market install?
[HTC One S] jobbie13:
Re: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Once again you all have exceded all expectations. So far only bug is my status bar logo - stretched.

Otherwise, flawless!

Thank you all!!
[HTC One S] Closed Source Project:
Is there any way to add a mod to get wallpaper scrolling back? I think HTC is really stupid for removing this if they did. Definitely mu last HTC phone now :)
[HTC One S] XmechaniX:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Flashed from recovery, full wipe.

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 PM ----------

I don't know what you mean, my wallpaper is scrolling :what:
[HTC One S] helasio:
Thanx torxx!!!
[HTC One S] torxx:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Known issue, sorry

Sent from my HTC One X
[HTC One S] torxx:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Yes we will add it

Sent from my HTC One X
[HTC One S] drewski_drew:
Phone storage (SD) unavailable. :( eek
[HTC One S] bihslk:
Thanks for the wonderful ROM. Flashed without ant issues.

One question? Where is the clock widget?

I can se 2 weather widgets but the clocks are gone?

Did i removed them maybe in the Aroma Installer?

Then downloaded and installed 2 Venom Skins from HUB but they not show in the Themes?
[HTC One S] Darknites:
Em your wallpaper looks crap here a better one for you.

http://www.a-gc.com/images/2012/11/abstract-world-maps-time-zones-strategy-HD-Wallpapers.jpg
[HTC One S] rustykwak:
try clearing data in sense app! was an issue in a previous rom life!
[HTC One S] bihslk:
Done but still no clocks available at all? Maybe i removed them in Aroma Installer?
[HTC One S] XmechaniX:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Install from zip
[HTC One S] rustykwak:
If so do a dirty full install of rom just clearing cache!
[HTC One S] torxx:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Describe your issue more detailed please

Sent from my HTC One X
[HTC One S] Darknites:
Looks like you might need to do this here.
[HTC One S] torxx:
AW: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Pretty sure you removed it

Sent from my HTC One X
[HTC One S] bihslk:
Sv: [ROM][S4][18 JAN] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.0.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Unzipped from rom file and installed. Now its there. Was missing. Maybe i removed it at installation lol. Tnx. But still problem with themes. Installed but cant see in themes

Skickat från min HTC One S via Tapatalk 2

---------- Post added at 12:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------

Thanks. Done

Skickat från min HTC One S via Tapatalk 2
[HTC One S] Behold_this:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

I didn't think you could view them in the gallery before? I guess you're making progress then;)...definitely perplexing.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Behold, I just downloaded 2.0.0 and flashed that... Beats works RIGHT away, also... Screenshots work. >_< Decided to OTA to 2.1.0 instead of doing the full rom... beats is broken and screenshots don't work. >_< I'm so confused now. Also tried TrickDroid JB and no issues of the kind either... How could only 2.1.0 have an affect on my phone?
[HTC One S] Behold_this:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

I'm sure you've said before, but have you tried flashing the full ROM and not doing the OTA? If not, I would download it fresh and flash it clean.

Just for the sake of argument, though, I've never flash the full rom for 2.1 myself and have only done updates (including the ota) but didn't have that issue.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Oh yeah, I refused to do the OTA till now... This is the first time, same results. :'-( Here's a pic of 2.0 working fine...

I give up for now... Gonna try LiquidSmooth, I suppose. I'll keep troubleshooting this to see if I can come up with something. If I have to, I guess I'll just live with the screenshots being broken. Audio enhancements work as long as I go and turn it on so... Meh.
[HTC One S] addsfsds:
I can't remember if someone already pointed out that the automatic brightness is not working as good as in the previous version. It doesn't change back the luminosity at the right level,no matter what settings i use.

Thanks developers for the attention!! :)
[HTC One S] uvt_novice:
Not sure why you have this issue. I tried both - OTA update on top of v.2.0 and flashing the full rom - did not have any issues in both cases. Everything works/ed fine. Just wiped dalvik + cache and booted up.

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

Strange! Mine is set to "normal" and works as it should be in the dark.
[HTC One S] cat2115:
Sorry, wrong screenshot. Here u go
[HTC One S] adolfo778:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Works here
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Nobody listens when I say that it doesn't work ON FIRST BOOT. It's messed up, it's like it was set to default on a missing equalizer setting so it's set to none at all until you click one or change it. Jeeze. It may be my phone, it might not be... just saying.
[HTC One S] adolfo778:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

:cool:
[HTC One S] datit.haui:
^^!

I hope have s2w in viper 2.2 soon :)
[HTC One S] bstylz911:
battery life is really bad :[

i can bearly get through a whole day without having to charge the phone.

only time i get GOOD battery life is when i BREALY use my phone.

i turn off all data wifi gps auto sync.

i also wiped everything before i installed FULL ROM.

set cpu to 1184 , 134 badass.

i was getting better battery on 3.6
[HTC One S] Sneakyghost:
Obviously, something is wrong with your setup then. Battery Life has been phenomenal with 2.1 for most. In fact, you are pretty much the first person to report such a really bad battery life.

First: SetCPU cannot possibly use BadAss, as there is no BadAss in our Kernel.

Then: 3.6 ROM has never been released, in fact, we are on 2.1 which is lower. 3.6 is still far away. Don't understand what you are referring to.

Then: BadAss is implying you are using some kernel that has this governor. Which means, you are either using an ICS kernel which is pretty badly wrong or u use Elemental. Either way, try to run the Kernel included in this ROM without any additional modules like Elemental has. It will probably help. If you see that it works well, then try again with Elemental and try to narrow down the cause. It is NOT a ROM issue. So you are definitely reporting to the wrong thread.

Also, SetCPU has been known to not work as good anymore, i recommend to use Kernel Tuner from Pedja.

Also, please provide precise info on how your setup is, as you can see, i had to guess my way through your report which makes people not really wanting to help. The more precise your report is, the clearer the answer.

Thanks and have a good day.

---------- Post added at 07:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 AM ----------

This feature very much depends on an open kernel source as it has to be written into some kernel files. Since HTC hasn't published the kernel source yet, it won't happen. Flar2 has pointed out, that s2w would be possible by only using additional modules but also said it would probably be unstable, a lot of work to do and simply not worth the effort. So, it's most likely not gonna happen before HTC publishes the sources.

Then, we have to see whether either ShowP, Flar2 or Zarboz are going to do that. Zarboz has no One S anymore but he has the code already. Go donate a few bucks to him so he can buy a One S again, then he will have that working in no time once the sources are out.

This goes for everyone out there wanting special kernel features. I still have an ex-brick device which is still good for testing and which i would give to zarboz cheaply but you guys wanting that stuff would have to buy it for him. I also can't afford to just give it away. I would do my bit and make it a fair deal.
[HTC One S] Gavin01:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Turned phone on an hour ago already at 90%......I've got various battery apps installed but not really sure what I should be looking at to work what's eating the power........some days I get very good life and another it sucks.......

if some one could explain all these power saving settings it would be great....as if I turn the power saving thing on my WiFi still stays on even if the slider is across
[HTC One S] psylooooo:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

I love the rom but widgets force closes already here, less than 2.0 rom but here again :(

(full rom, and full wipe, downloaded 2 times + installed 2 times too, wipe cache and dalvik cache + fixing permissions not help, I don't know what to do now)

Envoyé depuis mon HTC One S avec Tapatalk
[HTC One S] dragonblade1214:
Can someone comment as to why the colors of the Calendar 2x3 widget look so faded? Before I flashed this ROM and on my tablet, the colors look a lot more solid.
[HTC One S] OCedHrt:
You may have to install the full ROM after wipe. I had the same issue (was fine on 2.0) but after wipe and full 2.1 install it appears to be okay. Can confirm in a couple days.

While on 2.1 OTA, BBS did not show anything abnormal. Rather, I would have 90%+ deep sleep and still drain ~10%/hour. When the screen is on the CPU is constantly fluctuating up to 100% even though nothing is running.
[HTC One S] Zer0r:
You have to re-scan you sd-card. There is special app in Google Play for it. It is JB bug.

---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 PM ----------

Same here. Beats are always disabled in Settings. But if I run Music app and go there for Sound Enhancers - I can turn on Beats, and it stays turned on afterwards. And becomes Enabled in Settings! So you can use this method to fix Beats behavior.
[HTC One S] disiz:
I flash rom 2.0 when release, and then ota 2.1 when release too, and I think my one S has a good battery life, better than 2.0 for sure. I turn on data only when I need it, and air plane mode during night :) It's not clear but I started when battery was 100% :)

Only issues for now are 3D cube still enabled when adding widgets, and no power saver icon in status bar even when checked in power saver menu. Thanks to venom team and providers for venom hub, I love my One S :D
[HTC One S] manikcs:
Odp: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twe

After full wipe and flash 2.1 three small bugs:

uninstall app screen looks like aokp.

Adb icon appear After reboot

Every reboot i have "android is updating" nag screen.

Before updating to 2.1 i made s-off and changed relocked test without relock BL (this made another problem: cant Flash recovery by fastboot)
[HTC One S] leezer3:
Have you got USB debugging turned off?

My widgets FC unless it's turned on.
[HTC One S] datit.haui:
yes, I understand!
[HTC One S] technotramp:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Try elemental kernel worked for me
[HTC One S] LibertyMonger:
Viper 2.1 plus Elemental kernel battery life is amazing! I don't know how all these people still complaining about bugs, it must be something wrong with the way they are flashing or something. If there is any bugs it's barely worth mentioning, if only to inform the devs. The little bugs will be fixed but I'm not really seeing any.
[HTC One S] cbgti:
Thank you a lot Venom Team!

This v2.1 of your Rom is incredible... Nearly the amazing v1.2.1!

The quantity of your tweaks is simply impressive.

I lost the Flyin Animation with my DesireHD... It's a very big surprise to see it again! :cyclops:

The battery life is very good in use. Even with a max CPU clock at 1728MHz...

Perfect! :good:
[HTC One S] torxx:
I will work on a kernel when the sources are out, checking every day htcdev
[HTC One S] Buickguy:
Beautiful Widgets Fix

After a little research, and trial and error, I found a solution to my "Beautiful Widgets" widget disappearing. Turns out that it can not work when installed to the sd card. The fix for me was to install BW and then use Titanium Backup to move it to internal storage.

Certainly NOT a rom issue!
[HTC One S] blackwing182:
i think the evita kernell can be builded for our device, but needs a lot of work first. i should jump in to it. and try
[HTC One S] torxx:
nope not really useable for making a stable default kernel
[HTC One S] OCedHrt:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Don't use ES file manager. But too late now. You need to reset permissions on build.prop to 644.
[HTC One S] blackwing182:
so you mean we can not port a kernel from evita to work on ville? even if it works?

in htcdev.com, the kernel source for evita rogers and telus are out.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
So I did a bunch of testing last night... the beats issue IS a rom issue. Other people have the issue too, some default boot setting is wrong. The reason it works just fine for people who OTA is that they likely enabled beats or some enhancement before OTA. I'm assuming others who did full rom flashes just missed it and turned it on another way. (I noticed videos turn on beats just fine when you play one) As far as the screenshots issue goes... I have that ONLY on 2.1.0... 2.0.0 is completely fine. I may just go back and deal with the widget force closes of 2.0... Love the tweaks in 2.1 though.
[HTC One S] pottyvick:
I have no issues with beats. Works when i plug in my headset, no FC's for sense either.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Every time I post about this I have to reiterate that it's only on first boot. -.- If you clean flash 2.1.0 or 2.0.0 and then directly OTA to 2.1.0 you will have beats disabled and unable to be enabled unless you go into Music -> Sound Enhancer and enable something. I'm not freaking out like "OMG FIX THIS FIXXXXX THISSSSSSSSS!!!!" I just figure it's nice for the devs to know that there is in fact something going on with their rom.

Also, I used four HOS all bought a good deal of time apart to determine this.
[HTC One S] pottyvick:
Tekerisi buddy... If that is an issue, fix would be to reboot the phone. Some would call that a fix. your screenshot thing seems more of an issue even tho i don't have that issue either...
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Haha. I'm not freaking out or anything.. I dunno what's going on with the screenshots honestly, the only one I'm sure is an issue with the rom is the beats thing. Lots of others have had that issue. I'm working on fixes for both, regardless.
[HTC One S] wsediboy:
Aroma installer

Hi,

I installd ViperOneS 2.1.0 yesterday, without HTC gallery app.

How can I install it from Aroma installer without re-installing the whole rom?

Thx

:cyclops:
[HTC One S] cat2115:
quote on u signature:

How u get TWRP v3.3.1.. Am i missing something. So far i only saw v2.4.2.0

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1677670
[HTC One S] TheCrow1372:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Why do u ad a link to TWRP, when it's obviously up to date at 2.4??
[HTC One S] wsediboy:
Sorry, My mistake.

3.3.1 is the Tollkit.

Thanx
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Well, I make this post with mixed feelings. I'm going to continue trying to fix my screenshot issue as well as my other issues... However, I can not at this time get these things to work. I've flashed every other rom and my phone works great, screenshots... Beats... I just don't know. I'll let you all know what I find out in the next few days. :'( Gonna miss Viper.
[HTC One S] troby86:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Lol, these two small issues are keeping you from staying with a great ROM? Anyways, I hope you find the problem, that would be great, but please stop posting the same issue over and over and over again. I never use Beats, however, I saw you post and decided to try mine, and it works fine, and no issues with my screenshots.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
I take screenshots constantly, I use them for checking/testing things. It really sucks to have to boot into recovery to save my screenshots to my pc or to post them on the forum... Also, the beats thing I could live with, I'd just like to see it fixed so I'm gonna be trying to do that.
[HTC One S] pottyvick:
So from my understanding the screenshot thing happens when you transfer the file via mtp? not when viewing on the phone?
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Correct. It's just 0 bytes in the folder in MTP mode.
[HTC One S] pottyvick:
I never use that... i normally just send it to dropbox and get it from there or i email it to myself
[HTC One S] TheCrow1372:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Beats WORKS FLAWLESS so either do a completely fresh wipe and reflash to see if that helps cuz seriously ur the only one I can see constantly posting the same thing over and over, I don't have any issue after 3 stage wipe and download and flash of (Full ROM) from OP
[HTC One S] Behold_this:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Well this seems to still be a one off issue (the screenshots) as your are the only one reporting it, but why not try using Venom Virtual Sd Card app which is on your phone with 2.1 instead of MTP. I'm just throwing out suggestions, though it's clear this is not a wide spread issue but rare.
[HTC One S] torxx:
Because it was in beta and will come when kernel sources are out :)
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Lol. I'm not posting the same issue over and over... I'm posting that I've been working on it. Infact, I think I fixed something pretty big just now. Also, three stage wipe?
[HTC One S] TheCrow1372:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Yeah 3 stage wipe, (factory wipe/cache/&davlick) cuz it always works
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Oh, yeah. I always do that.
[HTC One S] Behold_this:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Ooops didn't realize that was beta only...my bad.
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
That's cool, I got excited for a sec... By the way.. Thanks for all the help again last night Behold, appreciate it.
[HTC One S] Behold_this:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

It's no problem man...I just wish we could get you all squared away. Hate it when phones get stubborn.
[HTC One S] LibertyMonger:
I take it this is your first experience with Jellybean lol. Gonna have to get used to the "nag screen"

Not sure what your beats issue is exactly but I had to activate mine by going in settings/sound/sound enhancer and went back to settings and it turns right on. Anyway no issues here for me and Viper 2.1 turned my views of sense away from being a hater, I love Viper Sense 2.1 lol
[HTC One S] psylooooo:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

No, my usb debugging is on, it seems to FC more with HTC settings widgets, but sometimes with HTC weather widget.

Envoyé depuis mon HTC One S avec Tapatalk
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
Trying another full fresh download... I really don't understand the screenshot thing. Works fine in other roms and I wasn't having this issue a few before 2.1.0... Very depressing. I'm gonna beat this if it kills me though.
[HTC One S] troby86:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Seriously....please stop posting the same thing over and over again...
[HTC One S] nashwing:
Just to add, (as this seems like a one-off problem for Daiskei) my beats works fine, and my screenshots work fine over MTP as well... Viper 2.1.0 OTA

:p
[HTC One S] torxx:
Just ignore it, he somehow wants to say with his comments that we MUST fix this for him
[HTC One S] blackwing182:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

dinner time :D
[HTC One S] cannonbal:
hi

installed Viper OTA few days ago and for me everythings is fine dont have any FC whith widgets or skins.

battery life is pretty good about 3 days in normal use(airplane at night)

only have a question i dont see anymore the small icon of power management in left corner ?

thx to the dev for this great rom :)
[HTC One S] psylooooo:
If we ignore problems of peoples they will coming ask again, if we ask again and again it's because we love the Viper One S ROM and we don't want to change :p
[HTC One S] Daiskei:
That's NOT at all true. Sometimes you people astonish me, someone is trying to work out a problem and simply because I'm posting status updates on what I've tried/what I am trying I get people jumping all over my back. That's okay. You don't have to ask me not to post again.
[HTC One S] TheCrow1372:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Post (when) you've solved (your individual) problem not everytime you (think) you've made a break through lol and again, no one seems to have (your) particular issues also don't get so defensive we are only trying to keep a good flow to this thread plus solve actual (ROM specific) issues I've yet to have. :thumbup::cool::D
[HTC One S] bigmoew:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

Dai, the problem your posting about is really small, almost a non-issue. This is the Dev forum, where we can expect a small first-boot problem to be addressed by the end-user so that the devs can focus on frying bigger fish. One post is enough, status updates to a small problem is annoying.
[HTC One S] caldo:
Thank you for your nice rom!

I have an issue though...

The call button has a delay of about 6 sec for keys and calllog to appear.

What I must do to solve this?

I've done factory reset, wipe cache, etc.
[HTC One S] yz250il:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

I think he was asking about the home screen grid, is there a way to increase the grid for the sense

home screen? (without a custom launcher)
[HTC One S] Sneakyghost:
AW: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

No.

sent from viper 2.1
[HTC One S] antdizzo:
Re: [ROM][S4][21 FEB] Team Venom presents: ViperOneS 2.1.0 | Sense 4.+ | 4.1.1 | Twea

I have this too, it doesn't take a reboot for me tho, it just fc or disappears without warning