yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus 4 General] ATnTdude:
Look at the diagram below, this is what was given to the FCC by LG. If you don't want to attenuate your cellular signal, keep your hand away from the blue part, which is the bottom of the phone. If you want to avoid throttling your wifi throughput, keep your greasy fingers away from the red part, which is next to the camera flash and power button. This isn't antennagate 2.0. There is nothing on the outside of this phone that will short the antenna, because it's all plastic and glass. Neither of those materials are electrically conductive.

All else being equal, that's true, but in practice, AT&T/Verizon put up half as many towers in the sub-GHz range as they do in the AWS/PCS range to take advantage of the fact that sub-GHz signals travel roughly twice as far. Half as many towers is half as much money that needs to be spent on rent, maintenance, utilities, and laying cable. They build the towers are twice as far apart, and therefore penetrate buildings equally poorly in most areas. The sub-GHz will actually be worse because you can't fit as much data into a 850MHz signal as you can with something running at 1700MHz.

Which Galaxy S3? An LTE model? All commercially-sold LTE phones all have multiple receiving antennas, so when you attenuate one, the other is usually clear to receive without interference. You'll still suffer performance penalties, especially in high interference, low signal areas, but in most cases you probably won't notice it.

As you see from my diagram above, there is only one receiving antenna in the Nexus 4, which makes it easier to attenuate. It is, however, possible that there is another receiver, as there are some questions surrounding what LTE capabilities the N4 has and whether or not it's really designed to have LTE enabled OTA when T-Mobile launches it's Band 4 LTE Advanced network next year. However you can still have LTE even if it just has one transceiver, it's just that no one has sold a 1x1 device, and it won't work as well as the 2x2 devices on the market (download speeds will be capped not much higher than what DC-HSPA can manage on 1x1).
[Nexus 4 General] snowdej:
Steve Jobs

The fanbois will be all over this if it "gets out"
[Nexus 4 General] csdibiase@gmail.com:
I guess LG was really trying to copy the iPhone 4...
[Nexus 4 General] iTeeXDA:
You stole my comment!
[Nexus 4 General] bioyuki:
The antenna diagram from the Anandtech review is much better then the FCC doc:

You can see the two diversity antennas, one for Band V (850mhz) and one for Band I, II, IV, VIII (2100mhz, 1900mhz, 1700mhz, 900mhz respectively)

The N4 has the newest Qualcomm baseband and transceiver which support full Tx and Rx diversity which should help with attenuation issues caused...so while I haven't received my N4 yet, I'm skeptical of the 'deathgrip' claims that folks are making here. No doubt there will be some signal attenuation when you hold the phone, but it shouldn't be a huge, huge amount with new phone designs. More detail on their subject in their iPhone 4S review: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4971/apple-iphone-4s-review-att-verizon/2
[Nexus 4 General] intel8052:
Thanks for that image... I probably should have done a bit more digging into that myself but I was a bit tired when posting this thread last night and skipped a bit of research in favor of starting the thread before I passed out. :p

That said, I re-ran the tests this morning while holding only the top 1/3 of the device and had similar results which I find strange if the receiver is in the bottom portion of the phone. Granted my less-than-optimal signal strength in town can't be helping... but at the same time I hadn't experienced this level of signal degradation in the past with sprint so I started to look into it a bit. After hearing that it other people were experiencing the same thing I wasn't sure if it was an actual problem or not. I haven't used any other Tmobile devices in the past so I had nothing to compare it to and figured I'd turn to you folks for some feedback. :good:

I'd also like to point out that I wasn't trying to imply that this was the exact same issue seen in the Iphone... just that I seemed to be experiencing greater than expected signal drop after picking up my phone... though I did mention that I was using a case to rule out that possibility from the get-go.
[Nexus 4 General] javacody:
My phone drops calls like a mofo. It sucks majorly. It goes from 3 bars to zero bars and sometimes I just hear no sound, other times it drops the calls.

My S3 in the same location has ZERO issues. So it's not the network.

I'm by far not the only one who experiences this.

I'll try holding the phone at the top to see if it helps, but I've never had any issues with previous phones (G1, Vibrant, I9300 S3) no matter how I held them.
[Nexus 4 General] Venekor:
Every phone does this, you're covering the antenna...... not hard to work out.

If you want amazing signal then get one of those phones with the antennas sticking outside of the device.
[Nexus 4 General] BassBlaster:
I can duplicate the wifi signal drop on my Galaxy SL, dont worry its normal.
[Nexus 4 General] javacody:
Did you read my post at all?
[Nexus 4 General] ATnTdude:
Indeed. That is a lot of antennas. I can confirm, as explained below, that your diagram is the accurate one.

Covering the main antenna seems to reduce the SNR by 3-5db, while covering both the main and diversity antenna decreases signal by ~10-15 db. That is completely covering the ends of the phone. Holding it normally does not appear to degrade signal in a statistically significant manner.
[Nexus 4 General] nyyankees3511:
Ive noticed it only in low reception areas of edge. Ive also noticed it on the galaxy nexus after upgrading to 4.2, the connection is inconsistent. So it might not be the phone.
[Nexus 4 General] javacody:
It would be awesome if it was software, because that means Google could choose to fix it.
[Nexus 4 General] intel8052:
Regarding "holding it normally does not appear to degrade signal in a statistically significant manner"... I can't help but disagree.

No matter how I hold the device, even if I hold it in a skeleton grip, my signal (and more importantly my U/D rates) noticeably drop. I saw nearly the same signal degradation as I noted in my original post while using a 'skeleton grip'. "Skeleton grip" = only the tips of my fingers on the device - pinky finger near USB port, thumb near power button, index/middle/ring fingers on left hand side of phone.

IMO a normal grip involves holding the phone similar to how I pictured my grip in the first post.

Ninja edit - I just went back and reviewed my original post... apparently in one of my passes proofreading the post I deleted the link to how I was holding the phone. This is how I was holding the phone during all tests. Held the phone in my right hand, started test with a quick touch from my left index finger, so my right hand did not move between tests at all.
[Nexus 4 General] Sully6789:
This has been an issue with every phone I've ever owned. From BB's, to Windows Mobile, Android, and even an old LG flip phone on Verizon. They all do it. My Skyrocket does it now, and my Inspire before it. It's just the way phones work. You're blocking the signal is all. Only phone I've never had do it was an old WM6.5 Pantech phone that had an external antennae that pulled out of the phone.
[Nexus 4 General] ATnTdude:
You disagree, but deliver no numbers to back it up, just some photo of your hand? I can't respond to that.
[Nexus 4 General] javacody:
It wasn't an issue with my G1, my Vibrant, or my Galaxy SIII International.

But I believe that is may be a common issue on some phones.
[Nexus 4 General] intel8052:
I gave all of the numbers in my original post. As I stated - I replicated the tests performed in the OP using a "skeleton grip" and I got the same results.

I'm sorry I didn't feel like typing out all the numbers again, shall I link you back to the first post in the thread?
[Nexus 4 General] otariq:
Yeah mine drops by one bar if I hold the phone around the bottom its probably physical not software because I think the antenna is at the bottom on the back
[Nexus 4 General] DowntownJeffBrown:
I've seen nothing in the form of this so if its happening it with a select number of devices. If you cover most phone with air tight death grip you are blocking the antenna. A normal phone grip shouldn't do this. If it is and I do believe you guys its maybe weak antenna.
[Nexus 4 General] bioyuki:
You can flash a different baseband and/or RIL and maybe that'll help but I personally haven't noticed much of a difference with the GNex baseband/RILs between 4.1.2 and 4.2.
[Nexus 4 General] stormtroopercs:
I found out how it blocks. Hold you hand like it was a stand and hold the straight up so the bottom is covered by your palm and the whole back is covered by your fingers. I lost 3 bars doing this. Since i have to hold it so awkwardly to lose signal it doesn't happen if i don't try to make it happen :p
[Nexus 4 General] draugaz:
It does not matter if your antenna "weak" or "strong", you hand will degrade it's performance.

It is actually quite complicated. Modern phones have antenna diversity, i.e. more than one antenna.

That at the bottom is used to transmit (due to the SAR rating), and both are used to receive. But they are not equal, depending on the frequency one of them can be better than other.

So, if you take the phone in your hand, you will inevitably detune and also shield the bottom antenna (and also the top one, but to the lesser extent). Now it is the question if it makes sense to switch to the top antenna if the bottom one was in use. Or maybe change the frequency band altogether to the one your hand happens to attenuate less.

What happens with all sorts of noise airwaves are full of? If the signal is strong, but riddled with interference, is it better than a bit quieter but much "cleaner"? Which one phone should choose? And which one should be displayed? :)

Another question: how sincere is that dBm level? I could bet it goes through a non trivial "averaging" magic. I wouldn't take it at it's face value.

So, it all depends on the network provider, frequency band availability and utilisation, averaging "magic" and so on.

As a sidenote, it is actually quite funny how people do want to be cheated. A manufacturer offering honest signal quality display will be stoned. So, nobody does it anymore. I suspect the same happens for dBm fot the same resons.
[Nexus 4 General] kcls:
I cannot hold my phone and have a signal at the same time, simple as that. It's getting quite obnoxious to have to set the phone down on a surface to do anything. Phone calls are out of the question.

I'm really hoping this gets fixed or a ROM remedies it.
[Nexus 4 General] DowntownJeffBrown:
Yes I think I said in not such technical terms that if you hold your phone in a airtight death grip you are blocking the antenna.Thus the signal dropped. As far as the weak antenna um OK you win cause you sure tried to confuse the hell out if a lot of people. Yes I know there are different antennas all over the phone.
[Nexus 4 General] VoiD_Dweller:
My coverage stinks compared to my old SGS2, my nexus 7, galaxy tab 10.1. All have better wifi and cellular inside my house. Its terrible. Half the time my bars are empty or I have 0 connection.
[Nexus 4 General] kcls:
Here's an example of what's happening to me. Right now I'm sitting in the dining room in my house. The signal bars are hollow. A couple of minutes ago, I went to the kitchen, set the phone down on the table, and when I came back, I had gotten a text message! I just can't comprehend this.
[Nexus 4 General] lowrider262:
that's pretty bad, sounds like you have a defective unit, I'd RMA it. my reception bounces around and drops sometimes, but I can still make calls normally
[Nexus 4 General] kcls:
Can't you only get an RMA before 15 days after you get the device? If so I think I'm definitely going to do it.
[Nexus 4 General] stormtroopercs:
Take this with a pinch of salt.. But i heard that you can RMA through the whole 1 year warranty from Google.
[Nexus 4 General] intel8052:
I really hope that is the case. I mean... my phone doesn't seem *quite* that bad but it sure seems a hell of a lot worse than some other people on here. I don't really want to risk getting a worse phone but wouldn't complain if I could get one that doesn't drop 2 bars no matter how I hold the device.

I'd like to give it some time so I can test the phone out in a number of different locations and find out if it reliably loses 2 bars or if it's just in my house where I have mediocre (2-3 bars) of service that it happens.. but before I can get any wide area testing done i'll likely be outside of a 15 day window. Maybe I'll call up a friendly google CSR and ask about it tomorrow.
[Nexus 4 General] kcls:
After another day of testing, I have found that there is absolutely no consistency on how my phone holds a signal. The only thing that is certain is it gets worse when I pick it up. Sometimes it gets a signal in a certain place in my house, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, data just never kicks in, whether I have full bars or just 1. Definitely RMAing this unit if I can. If the other one has the same problem I'm complaining to T-Mobile. If T-Mobile doesn't do anything, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Be angry, that's for sure. I never thought I'd miss my Optimus V so much.
[Nexus 4 General] kanwal236:
Guys, be aware that the signal degradation is mostly caused by the type of signal in play.

2G will be affected very little by this. All 3G signals affected greatly, this varies from carrier to carrier depending on the spectrum of wireless frequency they have, e.g. how far the wave will travel, signal penetration (this includes going through your hand).

For my Nexus 4 on T-Mobile my hspa signal can have 3 to 4(max) without me holding it and 1~2 bars with me holding it, along with the somewhat rare case of 0 bars. Phone's not bad, it's just how wireless tech works, when not using some kind of super signal boosting tech.

For reference, I just tested 13Mbps down 2Mbps up on HSPA.
[Nexus 4 General] uberNoobZA:
I get 1 bar withphone on desk and 3 bars when holding phone in hand. So much for that theory
[Nexus 4 General] draugaz:
Not impossible and does not contradict that "theory". The whole thing is just too complex for simple "good/bad".

Here is an example of the radio signal strength distribution in a room (wifi, similar frequencies to UMTS/GSM). So, couple of centimeters can radically change everything.

Besides, your body also acts as an external antenna. Just nobody knows at which frequency and whether it will improve or degrade reception. Usually the latter, but who knows, there is a chance of jackpot.

And then there is a network management "magic". Your phone not just picks the "best" frequency. It connects to the cell on the frequency given by provider.

Which has his own agenda like for example, what would you do if you have some cells/frequency bands with near 100% loads and another cells nearby which are mostly empty? Sane provider would move as much users to those empty cells as possible. Even if that "popular" cell has a better reception. But if your hand makes that "empty" cell unavailable, you might get moved to more crowded but "better" cell.

By the way, I don't try to make a statement about your particular case. Just wanted to say, that the whole thing has too much non trivial "ifs" and "buts" to do any conclusions just because some bars jumped from x to y.
[Nexus 4 General] :
You need to get a job as a human antenna--:)
[Nexus 4 General] robrob777:
Voice too.

First call ever in my N4 at home to work. never had a single issue with the GN. well this N4 was cutting off. I frequently do this call and never had issues with the iphone or GN or NS or HD2.

Data slow is OK for me, voice no.

THanks
[Nexus 4 General] RLothar:
Post here if you are having this issue: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=40343
[Nexus 4 General] ccgabe:
T-Moble in Portland Oregon

Got my Nexus 4 on Dec 31st and my signal is all over the place no matter if I am holding the phone or if it is sitting on my desk, one moment can be 3 even 4 bars and a moment later no bars or maybe one or two. I contacted t-mobile twice and they find no problems with their signal. On their coverage map I am in next to highest signal area and was told I should be getting 3-4 bars. Called Google and they insisted on a RMA and a new phone that they still don't have in stock as of Jan 25th. So I am doing the waiting game again. The phone is great otherwise.
[Nexus 4 General] mnath:
i get no signal in almost any room with bricks with tmobile hspa +
[Nexus 4 General] hutzdani:
No issues here and i work in an area with 1 bar or no siginal.

mines in a s curve case and i still get 1 bar signal and in the case and the same not in the case.

in my house i have great signal and no matter in a case or in my hand the 3G speed is different every time, speed test is not a good judge on what up and down speeds your getting.

one second ill be getting 2 up and 5 down and then i'll get 0.3 up and 0.7 down i can do that all day and never get a result thats within 0.30 different.

and its not my home location either i spend a lot of time on the road across England and no matter if Im in london or liverpool or in the hills of the mores its never consistent.

same happens with my one x and that even has the same case from the same manufacture.

either your death gripping your phones or looking to hard for something thats not really an issue.
[Nexus 4 General] clockcycle:
The bars you see aren't current and changes even with a slight difference in placement. The n4 does not have metal side antennas like the apple devices.
[Nexus 4 General] Flippy125:
So many responses and it still hasn't come up yet.

You're holding it wrong.
[Nexus 4 General] Zainiak:
was just about to say that lol :laugh:
[Nexus 4 General] rrmzr1:
I'm getting the signal degradation when holding the device with my left hand. Lower corner. But only really makes a difference in very low signal areas.
[Nexus 4 General] casonswag:
Where are the antennas located in the n4?
[Nexus 4 General] white43:
I'm getting this as well. I thought the phone had poor signal until I put it down and it went to full bar. The second I pick it up in my left hand the Wifi and signal jump down to 1-2 bar. Put it back down, problem goes away.

Didn't get this on my HTC One X.
[Nexus 4 General] jutezak:
Holding an antenna with a hand (that contains a lot of water) will reduce its efficiency.

Look at the N4's antenna location and you can avoice influencing the reception too much.

The primary antenna for GSM and UMTS transmit and receive is at the bottom. So do not put your fingers under the phone or very close behind the bottom edge. Touching that area will have the biggest influence.

Then there is a secondary receive antenna (or 2, the service manual is a bit contradictory). It is on the back, in the glass panel. I think it is near the volume rocker, but it is on the back of the phone.

So the optimal way to hold the phone is with the fingers left and right of the phone. No fingers on the back, and no fingers on the bottom especially.
[Nexus 4 General] cb474:
It's true that all phones do this. It is not true that all phones do this equally.

Indeed, people might remember that when Apple was caught up in antennagate over the iPhone 4, they released a series of videos showing other phones losing signal when the "death grip" was performed on them. This was meant as a defense of the iPhone 4, but what the videos also showed was how much the degree of attenuation was different on different phones.

For my part, I noticed right away with the Nexus 4 that I was experiencing a pretty severe death grip. Signal is pretty weak at my house, but with my Nexus One, if I locked it to 3G, I was always able to make a call, regardless of how I held my phone. The Nexus 4, in the exact same locations, is not as good. It often says I have no network signal, as soon as I pick the phone up. It's quite annoying to experience such a degradation in quality on such a basic feature (reception) going from the Nexus One to the Nexus 4.

Thank you for helping to explain why the Nexus 4 is more sensitive to this problem.
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Damn you, I was about to post that!!!! Oldie but goodie ;)
[Nexus 4 General] cb474:
Are we referring to Steve Job's famous remark about the iPhone 4? It was actually: "Just avoid holding it that way." I was going to start a thread on this topic titled, "Just avoid holding it that way," but then I found this one and there was no point.
[Nexus 4 General] draugaz:
Actually we mere mortals don't know this as we have no ways to measure it.

That signal strenght indicator is by far not what people think it is and the bar display is even less honest. That apple show with other phones was just a show and nothing more.

As to the Nexus4, I have a strong feeling it suffers from quite a different set of problems. Not the excessive attenuation or substandard antennas, but more like algorithmic issues in radio firmware.

Mine has a tendency to hang on the extremely weak cell towers (which other phones don't even dare to connect to) and then takes ages (like half of the minute) until it switches to stronger ones.

Those issues together can give impression of the "death grip" issues. If your phone radio firmware reacts quickly enough and switches to other antenna and tower/frequency, chances are you won't drop the call and won't even notice anything. If it just optimistically claws for the same tower like N4 regardless of the better alternatives, it will result to lost signal and dropped calls.

By the way, Nexus One had very similar problems at the beginning. HTC did fix it eventually, but it took some time and several radio updates. I hope LG engineers will fix it too, sadly 4.2.2 does not seem to behave any different so far.
[Nexus 4 General] cb474:
I think there is enough evidence from peoples' actual experiences with different phones that it's obvious that some phones suffer from "death grip" signal attenuation more than others. As I noted above, it is certainly obvious to me that my Nexus 4 suffers much more from death grip, than my Nexus One. I can get a 20 dBm drop in signal just from holding the phone at the bottom. On my Nexus One it was always more in the 5-10 dBm range. And if I'm in an area with weak signal, I can easily make a call drop by holding the phone at the bottom.

There may be other issues with the radio firmware on the Nexus 4, but there is absolutely no question to me about the death grip issue.

I also am not at all having the same experience as you with connections to towers. It was very striking to me right away how quickly the Nexus 4 connects to a tower, switches be weaker and stronger signals, switches between 3G and Edge. It does it seamlessly and in fractions of a second. In comparison, my Nexus One would take forever to find a signal and connect to it.

Some of this, I'm sure is influenced by the idiosyncratic nature an any particular location: where the towers are, how their signals interfere with each other, the locations and construction of buildings, terrain, other electromagnetic interference in the area, etc. But the death grip issue is so incredibly simple to demonstrate and incredibly easy to reproduce over and over in any location, just by gripping one's phone in the right way and watching the dBm drop in a network monitoring app. There's is just no question for me that the Nexus 4 suffers from a serious death grip issue.
[Nexus 4 General] undercover:
Has anyone mentioned that antenna is placed at the bottom of the device? Right where your palm rests. It covers antenna rather well. I can't believe engineers didn't anticipate it. Stupid decision, but it isn't too bad in my case really. I'm using HTC Desire atm and it's signal is weaker most of the time.