yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus 4 General] crachel:
Service plans aren't really an appropriate discussion for XDA, much less for us to have multiple threads on. Use one of the existing T-mobile threads

Why you shouldn't buy the nexus 4 from T-Mobile for $199

T-Mobile Nexus 4 Release date Nov. 15th

Closed
[Windows 8 General] Cav3:
Hey i use adobe photoshop, dreamweaver and after effects but would love to know of any plans for metro versions of these apps. As I'm actally getting board of my desktop I'm loving metro.
[Windows 8 General] JihadSquad:
I don't think Metro is anywhere close to powerful enough to run full Adobe apps on it. It is meant to be used with a touchscreen so you would lose any precision on one, and the current menus would be hard to use. I am pretty sure they would release a mobile version (like the ones on iOS and Android) if anything. Same goes for stuff like SolidWorks, AutoDesk, and Sony Vegas.
[Windows 8 General] BeADroid:
I think we will are metro apps of all these soon. Windows 8 is here to stay and pretty soon all the desktop apps will go away. Best thing to do is write adobe! The more people who ask for windows 8 apps, the more likely they will create them.
[Windows 8 General] dragon_76:
Adobe has been writing touchscreen apps for a while. They are all subsets of the full apps, yes, but don't think Adobe doesn't want a piece of the touch pie especially since they currently have nothing that runs on RT
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
Highly doubt there will be metro versions of the big-uns, readers yes, CAD, photo shop no. But who knows, perhaps there will be support packages, project browsers, readers, demo environments etc
[Windows 8 General] Rakeesh_j:
No way that will happen with photoshop. Apps like photoshop really need to deliver high precision control and many tools presented to the user at once in order to be productive. You simply can't accomplish that with a touch interface, not a chance.

If you have a large monitor (large being 30" or above) metro apps are a thorn in your side due to horribly inefficient use of screen real estate. I deleted all of mine.
[Windows 8 General] dazza9075:
I agree but metro on 37in is fine, metro is for singe use apps, email, news very specific in nature, it won't work well for the likes of PhotoShop but in terms of real estate, its fine, just use it and set it up as it was intended, an interactive startmenu an single page multi feed information source
[Windows 8 General] ChrisDDD:
I highly doubt that. I simply can't see people readily giving up a truly windowed UI and the ability to have multiple applications on the screen at the same time. Not saying Metro doesn't have its uses, but it's simply too restrictive for general use by anyone that needs to actually be productive.
[Windows 8 General] JihadSquad:
Agreed. Unless MS does some major overhaul of Metro in Windows 9/10, it will exist solely for content consumption... which it is great at. Creation, however, will have to reside on the more powerful desktop.
[Windows 8 General] GoodDayToDie:
Oh, there's some productive work you can do in a "modern" app. They support mouse and keyboard, after all; you aren't required to use touch. The built-in email app is missing a few features that I consider essential (no plain text... WTF??) but for the vast majority of people, it works fine. There are already text and code editors which are totally usable (although they aren't generally *superior* to existing desktop apps). You can create and edit images and such.

That said, I agree that the desktop is here to stay. my reasoning, however, is different: *the* thing that keeps Windows as big a player as it is, is the legacy support (apps, drivers, interface). That's never going away completely.
[Windows 8 General] WebmastuhB:
The way I see it - there is a big difference between content consumption while on the go, or sitting in a recliner chair AND content creation while sitting at a desk. Sometimes touch interfaces make a lot of sense and sometimes they just don't. Sometimes command line makes more sense...

So yeah... There may be a version of Photoshop that works with touch, but it doesn't seem like the ideal interface for many of the functions hard-core photoshop users need.
[Windows 8 General] inaudibly:
I think Photoshop touch will be released soon, unfortunately its not anywhere close to a replacement for Photoshop
[Windows 8 General] ChrisDDD:
I can certainly see Adobe releasing a Photoshop Touch (like the existing iOS/Android versions) for Metro, but certainly not the full Photoshop. I would honestly say there's absolutely nothing that the full Photoshop would benefit from by a touch interface.

Touch would seem like a great feature for something like Photoshop, but 1- the enlarging of all the buttons, menus and various controls would drastically degrade the UI, and 2- anyone who really needs a more natural input method than a mouse will be using a Wacom tablet with the added benefit of precise pressure sensitivity and all the various pen and tip/nib options. In comparison, painting with a finger has no serious benefit.
[About XDA developers] Fallen Spartan:
After reading a few threads and comments from our members I thought it may be worthwhile to create a Feedback, Recommendations or Idea's thread for XDA. We want to improve our forum for developers and the normal users.

So, rather than sending a PM to a Moderator, please feel free to leave any feedback or idea's you may have to improve XDA, so we can discuss them properly, openly, with the plan to hopefully implement the ideas which are good.

It's sole purpose is to improve XDA and collect your thoughts and idea's.

We will all be monitoring this thread, and someone will hopefully reply without much delay.

Thanks

Rick

Moderator/Developer Committee

Edits done by Clark Joseph Kent to better support XDA.
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
XDA-Developers needs to be more about developers

While I see that time and users have made XDA less about development and more about user support, I think XDA has gone too far in that direction.

Developers need a place to DISCUSS development.

The "General" subforums are too overwhelmed with threads like "Post pictures of your phone", "list of threads linked from other places" and other random "general user" stuff.

The "Q&A" subforums are now a place where moderators chase newbies to. The most technical question you might find in the Q&A section these days is "I just bricked my phone, what do I do?" (Usually, the answers are either making fun of the OP or telling him/her to search.)

The "Development" subforums, which seems like a logical place to discuss development, is now reserved for people to post finish products only and beg for donations - It's the XDA version of the "app store." There's no actual "development" discussion allowed.

Here's what we don't have anymore (but desperately need):

A place where a kernel developer could start a thread discussing the pitfalls of turning off processor cores on a particular device when the device is idle. That would likely lead into a discussion on possible ways to optimize the IN/OUT code for the cores, which would actually *gasp* promote development.

A place where a person might post a "HOW TO" document describing how to modify a stock firmware for a specific device to override carrier controlled lock downs. (For example, editing the CSC for a samsung device.)

A place for development related DISCUSSION - not just a subform for "I cobbled together mods I copied from other people into a so-called ROM and will now beg you to donate to me and press my "thanks" button."

XDA promotes itself as a DEVELOPERS FORUM. The definition of "forum" is "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." Doesn't that seem to indicate that development related discussion would be encouraged here?

(continued...)

---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------

So, the obvious question about my post above is how do you moderate a "developers discussion" subforum?

I honestly don't see a problem with that. You make posting access to that subforum by request only. The access should be granted pretty freely but with a note reminding the user that any non-development discussions will result in loss of access to those subforums. Plain and simple. Any RD's or ERD's would automatically be given access without the need to post a request.

Only developers should moderate those subforums, as the fact is that XDA has some moderators that have no clue whatsoever what "development" is.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.

...

I'll have one more post to discuss the current vagueness of the rules and the random enforcement of them...
[About XDA developers] reinbeau:
Gary, while I agree with many of your key points one I disagree with is that only elite developers (who don't have the time) are the ones who should have the 'final say' with regards to moderation, and that they are the best qualified to do so. Given a good set of rules to use as guidelines, any level headed person who is committed to helping XDA move along smoothly is qualified to be a moderator. I am not a developer, however, I've been moderating forums for years now. People are people no matter what the subject. You and I have discussed the rules, which are being worked on. I like the idea of a 'developer only', invite only forum. I think it's time to make that happen. Given that I am so not a developer, I know when I'm over my head - and we have people on the team who moderators like me can turn to. Moderators are here to help, not hinder - I think we can work this all out so the developers are happier, users learn, and moderators moderate ;)
[About XDA developers] Fallen Spartan:
Some interesting points you've listed, which I can honestly say are being looked at, however your point above, I'm gonna have to disagree with. The ERD's are extremely busy with actual development, as are most, if not all the developers. If we where to also ask the ERDs to moderate all the development related forums, they'd have no time to develop
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':

Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?

I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.

Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
[About XDA developers] Fallen Spartan:
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for ERD's, and RD's. I'm not a developer myself, would never claim to be, but I do try and read up on things to understand them so I can make informed decisions. But likewise, I do ask developers for advice on specific things, then learn from what I'm told. In an ideal world, we'd let ERD's have the final say, maybe even RD's, but with so many in house fights amongst so called dev's, there is the potential for abuse which is what concerns me. I cannot see ERD's doing this mind you.

Again, interesting ideas which I welcome
[About XDA developers] svetius:
Really appreciate this feedback, guys. We're going to bring it forth in our monthly call with the admins and site owner. :highfive:
[About XDA developers] mfsr98:
What about doing a forum named like "other devices root development". There are a lot of potential devices that don't get root because they don't call the devs atraction (and some of the have locked bootloaders).

I also think that there are forums from brand new "high-tech" devices that don't get development because well, there is no development for unlocking bootloaders or doing something like root for locked bootloaders, which happens on some devices. So, again, othere devices could have their chance.

mfsr98
[About XDA developers] Fallen Spartan:
@garyd9, no need to be bitter, I'm actually glad to hear you views, so rant away. I created this thread for this very purpose, to hear the views of the users, to better XDA

...........................

You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think! XDA, mobile wisdom, not a n00b feeding ground!!
[About XDA developers] sgt. slaughter:
-gary

While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
[About XDA developers] reinbeau:
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
[About XDA developers] sgt. slaughter:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
[About XDA developers] sgt. slaughter:
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...

It is absolutely impossible to have purely 100% code talk in the dev sections. The size of the userbase is way too large for the mod team to regulate that.

Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
You may be right, but I don't want to consider the possibility that XDA-Developers might become a non-developers forums. If your suggestion is carried out, I'd predict that it'd slowly (but surely) lose it's developer core and become more and more another "android central" or other generic handheld forum.

My reasoning is simple: XDA doesn't give birth to developers - they are born and bred before they get here. However, you're suggesting that they won't have a place to "talk shop" here unless and until they achieve RD status, which I'm assuming involves a certain application and requires that some projects have already been hawked here on XDA. I'm making some assumptions about RD here, but I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that a person can't submit a professional non-XDA resume to get it. As well, you are also always going to have some devs that simply refuse to "apply" for what they consider a "silly title." More especially those that see "ROM cooks" called RD and look the other way.

What is a real developer going to do in that case? Simple: find someplace else to talk shop.

(It's almost comical the way I talk about RD here. I've been doing professional dev for a very long, have given back to the android and ppc communities, and been an XDA member for a long time - but never bothered with RD status here when the program started. So, I honestly don't know what it might involve. I might be wrong about any type of requirements.)

I guess this question moves beyond my suggestions. I've been basing things on a developer-centric forum. That's what XDA-Developers was when I joined, and quite a few FAQ's we point users to indicate that it's still intended to be. If XDA is going to move away from that, then please disregard my suggestions.

Take care

Gary
[About XDA developers] reinbeau:
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?

Exactly.
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.

Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.

Thanks

Gary
[About XDA developers] Fallen Spartan:
For the time being I'm inclined to let the discussion continue in this thread as there isn't much else being discussed here atm. If more idea's/recommendations appear, we can then create a new thread....if needed. Also, if a set way has been agreed on a particular idea/recommendation, I can create a second post updating users so its not lost within the thread
[About XDA developers] jb_wisemo:
Making room for real developers again

Hello,

I am one of those professional developers in real life, who don't have the time to play silly points games just to get access to the developer part of a forum. So my "XDA status" is stuck at "noob", but I am really here to look for a place to share technical discussion with other developers.

Looking around (I have been lurking for years now), I think the following improved structure would be a good idea:

In each area (General, OS, device) there should be 4 development subforums rather than the current 1 or 2:

1. Firmware and theme releases.

One thread for each firmware/theme series, hosting download links in the top 3 posts, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.

For instance the Android Samsung Galaxy III "Firmware and theme releases" forum would have exactly one "Cyanogenmod" thread and at most one "Cyanogenmod kang by temasek" thread.

Real cooks can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.

2. Free App releases.

One thread for each free app, hosting download links in the top 3 ports, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.

For instance the Android Free App releases forum would have exactly one "ROM Manager" thread.

Real developers can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.

3. Unreleased experiments

One thread for each unreleased firmware/theme/free app, hosting only discussion of what should go into it, difficulties in making it etc. When released the thread is moved to 1 or 2 as appropriate, at the thread OPs command.

Only real cooks and real developers can post here, there is a limit on new threads per user per month depending on the posters general standing.

4. Developer to Developer

This hosts regular forum style discussion threads where developers for that target (OS/phone) can ask each other questions about technical details for the target, one thread per subject matter, no threads about specific projects. This is the place to discuss stuff like ("Which wceload variants are in which upstream firmwares" in a WM forum or "How are the GPIO pins on the SoC connected to other parts of the phone (in a phone specific forum) or "How does the foo() API work" (in an OS forum)).

Only real cooks and real developers can post here.

Determining access:

Now as to determining the "real cook" and "real developer" status of a user, there could be a quiz and a number of extrinsic tests for each OS. Quiz questions would be multiple choice that a real cook/devel would answer easily, but a poser would get wrong. Other tests could be "prove that you have a developer account on Market/AppStore/OVI/Marketplace" "Show that you can sign an empty sis/cab/etc. with a valid developer certificate" Because getting a new certificate/account for some of the platforms may no longer be possible or may be otherwise restricted, such

tests would just count as N correct quiz answers in determining the pass/fail.
[About XDA developers] undercover:
Yes, but actual development as efrant mentioned happens off site, irc mainly. That is understandable since its live chat and is a lot more convenient. Also, often you don't want public to see what you are doing for a few reasons (beta, OEM patches etc). Perfectly valid reasons. In irc you can choose who to have in the channel and people that are useful for development and are keen will find their way there anyway sooner or later. Then you have independent devs, that are there (not all obviously) not for the love of deving but for the monetary return. That's worse than anything else imho on xda.

So I understand that you want xda to become "development" again but I can't see it happening. It is the cradle of ideas, but actual development happens and I think will happen elsewhere.
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
I'll try to express it a different way, then:

Ignoring the "apps/theme" section for a moment, if I developed an application called "Angry Birds" (I didn't, but it's a well known example) and wanted to post a download for it on XDA, would that belong in "android development", "original android development", or someplace else entirely? This is an application that was developed. MUCH more work went into that than has gone into almost every kernel and firmware posted here on XDA. It's also being updated on occasion.

I'm not willing to answer detailed questions about the internals of it, nor explain how others can develop something similar.

Of course, it shouldn't go into either development section. Yes, it's the product of development, but it's not the process of development.

I don't see "angry birds" as being any different from a kernel image or firmware (ROM) package. In all cases, they are products to be directly installed.

I might surprise you. For example, I have a thread in a dev section that discusses the samsung CSC files, how to edit them, and is trying to get people to test various values to see what they do. That's an extremely easy and trivial thing, but it's PROCESS - it's development.

printf("Hello, World!\n"); /* this is also development */

HelloWorld.apk /* this isn't */

indexes: general (sticky.) (Having them here in a common place makes them easier to find/search.) howto/guides: if they are development, they'd go into a place for development discussion. If they are user guides (how to install XYZ), they'd go into General (and be referenced in a sticky index.)

BTW, I'm enjoying the debate. Don't take anything I might type as any type of attack or anything - it's not. I'm okay with disagreeing with people (as long as they eventually realize they are in error. :laugh: )
[About XDA developers] garyd9:
I disagree. Take a look here: http://xdaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2017.

That's a very new section and isolated to a single platform. It's an experiment to allow development to happen here. So far, it's working.
[About XDA developers] a.cid:
Okay, if I were to sum it up, development cannot be done "privately"...

If its private, then it becomes a product and not a process...

In that perspective, development happens when people get together and do things publicly, giving other non-devs a chance to understand and maybe even chip in to the discussion...

Thus, if xda is used as a platform for development but private methods like irc are used, its not development...

Should we move away from using xda as a platform for a product, and rather use it as a platform for a process?

If so, how do we make sure it is about the process, and not about someone's e-penis or pocket?

How do we define the boundary when the process becomes the product? (Eventually, all process will lead to a product)

I think this is what has gone wrong over the years...