yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
The problem isnt the engineering, it just looks like they overlooked the thermal throttling value.
[Nexus 4 General] jader13254:
Lol guys, only in benchmarks throttling issues are appearing! The Phone can keep the needed 60FPs in Games, without any issues so why your crying?

This GPU is even throttled way faster than Samsung mali-400!!!
[Nexus 4 General] qwahchees:
What was this post about? I thought that the phone had issues benchmarking and was heating up, this video is hilarious!

All in all, my S3 used to hit 45-55 under max load @ 1.5ghz & reg. voltage, after underclocking it went down to 50 max. 60C is a bit low, but I doubt they'll keep it that way, they'll have to change it if they want this phone not to butter all over itself.
[Nexus 4 General] sarni84:
No I just think running 30 benchmarks one after another will do that. And to the other guy comparing the computer to a phone U can not do that. Computers have a cooling system! Phones do not have fans also computers have way better ways of dissipating heat! I think the n4 will be fine especially in real world usage. Point is U tax anything to much thermal throttling will kick in and if benching scores won't look so hot
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
Please note which post I friggen quoted... I basicly support your point. If you don't understand how it supports your point. Kkthxbai
[Nexus 4 General] sarni84:
Yo bud listen U sound like a twelve year old kid I in no way was coming at U! Holy crap dude so what are U gonna be an internet tuff guy ?? Lol come on guy get real U took that Sh** to the heart. It is only phones we are talking about. Because I quoted U does not mean I was going against U effin crybaby KTHXBAI

P.s get your post count and thanks count up before disrespecting people guy
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
Lol... who's butthurt.

Also, staring a quoted post with "no" doesn't really imply agreement.
[Nexus 4 General] espionage724:
Thanks and post count don't mean anything in terms of how important a person is... sure they might be a "general" guide, but nothing more...

And hopefully this thread can.. stay on topic :)
[Nexus 4 General] sarni84:
Well thank U for clearing that up:eek: in all seriousness I did wig out a little sorry guys
[Nexus 4 General] Red Wolf:
4 more days bro :silly:
[Nexus 4 General] dynamicpda:
I don't really know. I know from the HTC Evo and Galaxy Nexus that there have been different hardware versions over the life of the device. Were significant engineering changes made or were merely parts sourced differently or were the versions made in different places?

I like the idea of the Nexus 4. I just want more information--and if there are problems hope that fixes get made in production.

Here's a discussion of the two versions of the Galaxy Nexus, though the differences here seem ambiguous. One way to know about new versions is to see the mention of them base on what is reported by the bootloader:

http://rootzwiki.com/topic/17066-difference-between-hardware-revision-09-and-10/
[Nexus 4 General] XxStatiX:
Hahahaha man i'm in India,so i'm like half a day ahead of you'll :laugh:

Confusion :p
[Nexus 4 General] shayne77:
When was the last time you seen a quad core CPU with only heat dissipation on it? Most desktop/notebook PCs have a fan or better ontop don't they?

More power = more heat.... simple really. Of course they'll get hot under FULL load which is what a benchmark does. For day to day use, I think everyone is overreacting as the 65deg limit will mostly never be reached and I imagine the 65deg has been determined to protect that series of CPU from degrading/melting down?

In other words... lets wait til the phone comes and you will all see it in its full glory and awesomeness!
[Nexus 4 General] XxStatiX:
Exactly.

Most probably it'll be sufficient.

Lets wait :p

Sent using Forum Runner
[Nexus 4 General] Daemos:
Please note, arm cores are no where near the size of a proper desktop core, arm cores are even tiny compared to an intel atom core which is *smaller* than a grain of rice. Compared to that intel i7 cores are massive, and have a much higher TDP.

arm cores quad core or not, do not produce enough heat to need a fan, they might only produce 1W of heat...they do not require active cooling, but they do require cases designed to passively diffuse heat. There should be no reason under even under repeated benchmarking for it to be hitting a temperature that requires thermal throttling.

It doesn't matter how many cores something has, more cores doesn't always = more heat. If we compare intel P4 Northwood core (1core) to a modern core i7...the 1 core Northwood probably produces 1.5-2x the amount of heat than the modern core i7.

Basically you are blindly making excuses so if it does throttle and you do buy it, you will justify your purchase using cognitive dissonance to say the thermal protection is there to protect the cpu, and it's "good enough" even though you can't make use of 100% of the hardware's capabilities due to thermal throttling.
[Nexus 4 General] XxStatiX:
:good:

Sent using Forum Runner
[Nexus 4 General] Maedhros:
Excellent post - I'm surprised more people don't seem to understand this. Obviously LG has some issues that need sorting. The question is if there is any way for them to correct something like this before release.

I doubt it.

I'm interested in knowing why there aren't reports of this issue on the Optimus G - could LG have modified some values or do they have a better dissipation solution on that device? If they simply have different vales for throttling, then it should be safe for the vales to be modified on the N4. If it is a hardware difference then the N4 is SOL unfortunately.

I'm interested in knowing how HTC will respond to the heat in these Chips. They should hopefully be able to better deal with this issue as they already have experience dealing with T3.
[Nexus 4 General] USSENTERNCC1701E:
Well, sort of, basically how I'm looking at it is: 67% of this phone's capabilities is worth $350. If this phone is limited to at best running like a 1GHz quad core phone, that's 4 times what my current phone can do, with 4 times the RAM, that is easily worth the $350 to upgrade.
[Nexus 4 General] qwahchees:
When you say this, does it mean that a single Quadrant benchmark or a few of them will cause Thermal Throttling? I can understand it throttling after 10's of benchmarks, but one or two is a bit ridiculous, if you ask me.
[Nexus 4 General] espionage724:
If I recall right, I think I ran Quadrant like 3 times, and then went to Antutu, and I think scores were pretty low. I believe I then ran it again, and the device just shut off (it was pretty warm also).

Not too sure on how room temps were when I was doing this either.
[Nexus 4 General] qwahchees:
You have a Nexus 4? Pre-release I presume?

Also, be honest, would this problem affect anything other then benchmarks? I was really looking forward to this phone, and every hump and bump I see makes me wanna return to my S3, or get the international S3.

Well not really, but it definitely doesn't make me yoohoo. And if this problem is prominent, could this be solved?
[Nexus 4 General] espionage724:
Na I don't have a Nexus 4. I don't really have any experience with how thermals are with it; was just mentioning my experience with a Nexus 7 however. Totally different chips though (Tegra vs Snapdragon). Although with my Nexus 7, normal gaming and usage wasn't an issue at all.
[Nexus 4 General] qwahchees:
Oh, the Nexus 7 throttles as well? That's odd. But eh, I guess we'll live. Do you think 60C will damage the phone though? I'm thinking more of 65+ would start damaging, my old S3 hit 55-60 after 1.8ghz and benchd'.
[Nexus 4 General] 0.0:
im confused...do benchmarks matter? also, are the benchmarks optimized for these kind of processors/cores? thats what ive been reading, that benchmarks arent really an indication of real life and that the app(s) doing the benchmarks arent necessarily optimized to test out the phone

for the thermal throttling, can the limit be raised by software? like with the kernel or something?
[Nexus 4 General] venturizhou:
This is how I sum up people's reactions to benchmarks. When they show your phone is better they mean everything. When they show your phone is worse they are meaningless.
[Nexus 4 General] Gr€€n:
Hahaha, you got the point!

If the bench were as amazing as expected the only thing we would have seen is that this phone is a beast.
[Nexus 4 General] wurzelsepp3:
How did you measure the temperatur in real time??? Temperatures usually drop pretty quick when there is no load.

60°C is pretty low and does no damage at all, judging from the thermal config file the phone only shuts down when the phone exceeds 120°C

so raising the limit to 75°C wouldn't do any harm (the galaxy s2 has a limit of 85°C for, some versions of Siyah kernel had the thermal protection disabled to prevent throttling when overclocking to 1.5Ghz+, and as far as I know nobody damaged their phone).
[Nexus 4 General] draugaz:
The consequences of overheating are not so clear-cut.

Obvious chip damage with fire and smoke is an extreme case but there are a lot of other damage forms which are not directly visible (somehow comparable to the mechanical wear and tear).

Chips do age. Electrical currents are slowly eroding the circuits. Thermal expansion/contraction create tensions.

Chips have their calculated lifespan which says "there is a probability (say 1 to X) that this chip will live for at least 3 years in a certain environment envelope (temperature, voltage etc).

If it runs hotter as intended, the chip lifespan will be dramatically shortened. Chips are aging much much quicker than in "normal" conditions.

So, even if raising the limit to 75°C won't do any immediate harm, it can provoke a chip failure several months later.
[Nexus 4 General] XxStatiX:
Got that right :good:
[Nexus 4 General] wurzelsepp3:
I doubt we would see any damage in the lifetime of the device, I my desktop graphics card has been running at 90°C (Idle, fan starts spinning at 91°C (custom bios)) for four years without any sings of damage.

Chips may age faster when the run hot, but most of the time they outlive the device they are in anyway.
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
The comparasion here is totally meaningless. Different type of chips have different top temps. Namely, one important characteristic, the die size, the smaller, the less heat generated, but also the less heat tolerated.

Some chips can hardly function over 60c and will fry at around 70c. Some chips (preschottt) could go IP to almost 120c.
[Nexus 4 General] qwahchees:
hm. I used System Tuner on my S3 to measure the heat of my S3. But if I can I'm turning up the thermal throttling to 65C. That should be sufficient.
[Nexus 4 General] Venekor:
I don't see why they even used the chip if it's being throttled other than for the marketing.
[Nexus 4 General] wurzelsepp3:
Because it only throttles is graphic benchmarks and most people don't run graphics benchmarks all day.
[Nexus 4 General] PhilipL:
Hi

Even Intel CPUs using stock coolers in big airy cases will usually thermally throttle down with extended stress testing and benchmarking, and Intel will tell you that stress testing isn't real world use, and so it is pointless designing and supplying oversized heatsinks and cooling solutions just so stress testing or bench marking can complete without the added help of thermal throttling.

Now imagine a quad core CPU that hasn't the luxury of a big finned heatsink with a fan on it, and that CPU is now sandwiched inside a tiny case with no air movement whatsoever. Thermal throttling now becomes the only way the CPU can regulate it's temperature. Even if the CPU can run hotter to allow thermal throttling to be postponed until much higher temperatures are reached, that then means other components are getting baked. That heat affects battery life time, can cause temporary or even permanent damage to the LCD display, will cause stress to the LED back lights (LEDs hate being hot), can cause the casing to warp, may cause early failure of components, and also has people returning their phones as they feel hot and unsafe. The HTC One X has had a lot of heat related problems like this reported.

Perhaps Google are confident enough in the phone that they allow it to run based on typical real world usage so stressing the phone less, while caring little that this takes a hit on synthetic benchmarks? I don't think anyone needs to worry about benchmarks.

Regards

Phil
[Nexus 4 General] italia0101:
Well i dont quite understand it, people keep saying its just benchmarks... but thats going to be the same if i play an intense game for 10-15 mins surely , it cant get through a quadrant without throttling and a quadrant run is like 2-3 mins,

i can understand if you run like 5-6 benchs , but iv seen videos of people just running quadrant , and its throttling
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
And just to add to Phil's good explanation, the more powerful the CPU is, the less stress it will be under, so the more powerful the CPU is, the more inacurrate stress tests become because power efficiency takes into account throughput, with an infinite amount of work to do, you effectively render a value that is usually a small number to infinity. That would be a math nerds nemesis.
[Nexus 4 General] espionage724:
It isn't. On my desktop for example, if I run prime95 for a few mins, I'll likely hit 60C on the CPU. Kombuster will put my GPU up to 70C after a few mins. Playing games like BF3 for an hour or two for example don't push my CPU temps past 55C, and 60C on GPU (on highest settings also; and do note BF3 is a pretty stressful game). Same concept would apply to any device I'd imagine. However, I guess in the rare event a game was coded to take full advantage of the hardware, then "maybe" it might stress the hardware enough to reach throttling levels, but I have yet to see such a game on Android.

As for what temperatures the chip can handle, someone should get a datasheet or direct confirmation from Qualcomm itself to see what the highest recommended temperature for the S4 Pro is.
[Nexus 4 General] wurzelsepp3:
I don't believe this, can you link me to one of these videos, I believe the low quadrant score has nothing to do with throttling.
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
No application makes your whole phone run at 100%. You bottleneck somewhere. The rest of the phone will simply follow the bottleneck.

To prove it to yourself. Do a battery test. Run your super special intensive game until the battery dies. Then run your super important benchmark test until the battery dies. You'll have a lot more fun AND time on your game.
[Nexus 4 General] italia0101:
fair dos, thanks, i guess it also matters which part is getting hot then, the cpu or gpu? because if its the gpu then we will take a hit in gaming no?

well i know quadrant can be manipulated and all that, but comparing it to the optimus G whch hits 7500, and scores higher in the CPU part, not the IO

Iv also heard that the optimus G has some sort of power management that may be the reason for it not throttling, where as the nexus 4 is starting the tests at full speed and therefore more heat...

Dont get me wrong, i still think this is probably going to be fixed, and even if its not, the videos iv seen show the phone to be fast and smooth at all times, so yea, it may just be benchs, the only thing i really worry about is the gaming
[Nexus 4 General] mastergamer99:
No, unless the stock coolign solution comes in every boxed cpu is broken, the cpu wont throttle iteself on full load (iMacs are something else), and u need to differentiate between benchmark and stress test (like prime95 or burncpu), if a cpu ( no mather desktop cpu or mobile arm cpu) overheats at a benchmark then there is somethign wrong with it.You cant argue, that normal people dont run benchmarks, they play games (what the gpu is made for!) Maybe the games wont reach the throttle temperature now because the gpu wont go to full load, but lets wait some month when there are better games and the gpu needs to go on full load, what we should do then? Playing 2 minutes and then have a break for 10min to let it cool down?!

You cant be serious.

Benchmarks from today will be the normal load from tomorrow, the gpu/cpu have to stand that load!
[Nexus 4 General] italia0101:
Yea, this was the point i was trying to make lol, You have to admit , on the face of it, its worrying
[Nexus 4 General] wurzelsepp3:
The GPU just clocks down you can still continue to play the game, and the GLBenchmark results indicate that the even when throttled the Adreno 320 is still allot faster then all other GPU used in Android phones today.
[Nexus 4 General] italia0101:
Yea you got a point there, i just know though in the back of my head that the SOC is capable of more, and that will bug me
[Nexus 4 General] Knuxr:
Um the only time a computer CPU should throttle is when it isn't being used, it will throttle to save power and keep temps down. However when it is being used, by say a game, it should NEVER throttle, if it does you have some serious issues with your cooling... Most people turn off this throttling feature when overclocking though as it can cause instability when pushing the limits.

However as others have stated, quadcore CPUs from desktop to mobile are vastly different, so this really isn't a fair comparison. Mobile processors are made to stay cool and not need active cooling on them, hence why they have throttling on them as a helper for when they get too hot. While this might be an issue with the Nexus 4, only time will tell.
[Nexus 4 General] PhilipL:
Hi

Exactly it should never throttle playing a game if the cooling solution is working correctly as that is real world use. There are many periods even in a game the CPU can enter low power states which means more heat escapes than is added. Turbo mode on Intel CPUs is a thermal throttle, just marketed as a "get more speed when its cold" rather than "get less speed when it is hot".

Processors in phones these days are no different and it isn't practical to design a slim state of the art smart phone to run synthetic benchmarks without the potential for over heating issues. This isn't unique to the Nexus 4.

All reviews where the reviewer has used the Nexus 4 normally day to day have almost all consistently rated it as fast with no lag. Synthetic benchmarks are just that. If anyone wants to run benchmarks to get a chart showing their phone is faster than another then perhaps the Nexus 4 isn't the one for them.

Regards

Phil
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
If the game makes the phone go 100%, time to upgrade... you probably need to understand computers a little better to understand (not meant in a derogatory way), computers are not like cars. Its not full throttle = fast and smooth. Computer load (or phone load in this case) is usually optimal at around 60-70%, and that has nothing to do with throttling (throttling is just a fail safe). Its more about the irregularities of the computations.
[Nexus 4 General] Daemos:
First of all no...modern intel processors will NEVER throttle down on stock coolers even running extended stress for 24 hours. I have personally put a i7 3770K into a TINY mitx case (antec 300isk) overclocked it, stock voltages, STOCK cooling, and have run stability tests like OCCT, Prime 95, Intel Burn Test etc...and these things push the cpu than any modern benchmark (aka benchmarking isn't really stressing out the cpu), and never once over repeated 3 days straight of testing, has it ever needed to throttle. Oh, and intel WILL cover damage to their cpus on stock speeds with stock HSF on stability tests if anything happens. FYI.

Again you don't seem to understand the concept of a benchmark, it's not "stressing" the cpu, that's not what a benchmark does, it tests the phones ability under heavy usage., if it throttles down during a benchmark, THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH STABILITY, hardware or software related.

Again, comparing a desktop cpu which is massive compared to a arm cpu which is fractions of a grain of rice, the arm cpu uses also only maybe 1/100ths of the power of a modern core i7 as well..so it doesn't require any fancy cooling, just proper thermal dissipation through the case.

Stop trying to blindly justify your purchase, oh it's okay under real world usage, but I can't use my phone to it's potential because it's too stressful for it...

---------- Post added at 07:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

I think you need to learn about computers. Oh and your analogy to cars is incorrect as well, just FYI.

There are PLENTY of games that can cause cpus to go 100% ditto GPUs, that's what they are designed to do, all that means if you have slower hardware it won't play as fast as modern faster hardware, but there are games that can cause modern cpus and gpus to basically be near 100% usage at all times while playing, even on top end computers. This doesn't mean the computer should throttle, it should continue happily chugging until you stop playing which may be several hours later.
[Nexus 4 General] MatAuc12:
How processing units work cannot be deducted by simplistic logic. You have no education in how processing units function from every word in your post (its not an insult, its just not your field, who cares! Just don't argue too deep on something like that). The reason benchmarks WILL throttle more than heavy usage is because they are designed to test every function of the processing units to the max (believe me, that is not limited to a "CPU job" and "GPU job"). Real world applications (including games) usually have quote a lot of those functions completed much easier and faster than other jobs (we could in fact here use a simplified example like "more GPU dependant" which would mean the CPU is doing its job easier than the GPU is able to do his). I could go on and on and on, but I hope you get the picture or then its not just because you don't know the subject.

Also, if you think the device will lag for whatever you wanna do, be my guess and don't buy the device.
[Nexus 4 General] albundy2010:
Speaking of desktops.

It has been covered in detail here. But here it is in very simple terms for those that don't get it

If a core i7 is rated to have a max tdp of 75w then the stock cooler has to be able keep the chip in spec temperature wise.

No desktop chip should ever throttle due to heat under normal use. Normal as in running stock specifications. You could run Intel's burn test for a month straight and the chip should not overheat

If this phone is throttling running bs crap like quadrant it should be software issue. I say should because if its not the damn thing should not even be for sale. It is not acceptable.
[Nexus 4 General] Luxferro:
While I agree with you, phone manufacturers do release defective stuff. Just look at the Galaxy Nexus and it's SoC.

It was supposed to be clocked higher given the specs for the chip used. But it drew so much power and caused instability issues so they just underclocked it. Just read through the development thread for the first overclocking kernel it had, and they point out the limitations that were run into and why it was underclocked. http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1380064&highlight=cpu+overclock

And before anyone says that the Galaxy Nexus OC's just fine, read the thread. There are certain CPU functions that just don't work how they were designed to.
[Nexus 4 General] albundy2010:
There is a difference between what clock speed range is spec'd for a family of chips and what a actual product / SKU of it ships at.

I get what you're saying though.
[Nexus 4 General] espionage724:
I disabled the CPU throttling, so I can't really speak much for it, but I do know that if my GPU series hits the 100C mark on temps, it will downclock itself to save it's life :p (critical temp is 100C; max temps before it shuts off completely is 107C I think).Then once it goes below 100C (maybe around 95C) it'll up it's clock speed back to whatever the max is. In a bad cooling situation, this process would keep repeating itself and lead to stuttering and erratic FPS, and probably overall lessen lifespan.