yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Why are they not letting you play against the top players? Doesn't pawning the noobs get boring? Have you played against Sw or any of the others that don't get dropped so easily? I look forward to our match their uber. Fudgeurpizzy
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
No idea, the last game I played was with all 25-30's then everybody left and rejoined another match got thrown in that one. As do I :cool: can't wait.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] xcly:
lol.. so I've been pressing the power button for nothing? I guess I forgot the combo since I only need to swipe across the screen on GS3.. The screenshot was stuck on saving.. Any ideas on getting it to work?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
no... read again. u need the power button.

it's power button + lower volume.

the higher volume button you can forget....
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] xcly:
Ah.. Sorry, I was pressing home button as well.. Will try that and see if it works
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] i8qbert:
And another cheater.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kanivier:
Caught on the act
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
So they will be a nerf gun? Haha that would teach them.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
LMFAO
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
I wish iapple crap would hurry their arses UP with this update! We are waiting on them and it sucks!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Well firing up :) hope i can get some good matches going.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] xcly:
Just wondering again, what would happen if they update android version but not ios version? Would apple users still be able to use tubes? Somehow i think this is a stupid question to ask but yeah..

Found a cheater today, by the name of LuigiPrimo. 19 kills and no deaths. Hiding behind a wall in zone c.

Miserable team today but still fun shooting. I'd say 4:5 against a tuber was good enough ratio :/
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
No gun mod...haha
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
Damn, is anybody online? I've played like 5 times, different match each time, I'm on america server
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] xcly:
Snow map. One other 20+ on my side, against a full set of teens. Thought it'd be easy. Ran ahead to C and took cover so my teammates can take zone D, except they decided they were all gonna hide somewhere instead.

Met a lovely chap and started a trench warfare, I had to signal u-turn to my teammates to tell them to take zone D, but the chap opposite thought I was talking to him and gives me a thumbs down.. lol.. just gave him a headshot and a thumbs up. A full minute later zone D is ours, and so is C. I rush forward only to meet a group and get killed. In that short while I spawn again and start jogging, C gets taken.. wtf?!

Stalemate arises, picking off anyone rushing to our defence, no one bothers moving, so I rush in the confusion and take A. Even then no one could get through to C. Full 5mins and few kills/deaths later, I hand A back to them, spawn at D and take over C. Then went over and rushed B.. all by myself.. only then would my teammates see it's safe amd adventure forward.. Done all that with just 21k/9d.. my other 20+ teammate took 40 kills camping.. hmm..

Sorry if I bored you to death.. one more kill for me eh?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
Heres another. Dude was a camping noob toob shooting c0ck bag
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
Was on for a bit earlier until I started having some stuff around the house to do. I need to get back into playing the game more often.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Got tired of rocket launchers and changed my name. :D and just so happen to be playing against a known noob tuber.

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
You should put "Go" in the front the screen name... :laugh:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Alien and roherr are just two of the players that will get SERVED when the update comes out. When they don't rocket they SUCK. When they do rocket they still SUCK.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Awesoham:
Mom took my N7 away or I'd be pwning tubers... got a test tomorrow!

:(

Will be back. Any news of the update?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
What? Hahaha
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Everyone knows school comes first. Or how else would you be able to get a job to buy these awesome toys ;)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
Have a friend to buy it for you... lol
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Time to stroll down memory lane and beat vice city ;)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Op redone
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] -SW-:
I haven't played in a while, waiting for the update. That update can't seem to come quick enough, I hope it's going to be extremely good with few issues after if it's taking this long.:cowboy:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Seriously lol. Between the turrets and the noobtubing the game has taken a turn for the worst.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
It's gotten a little stale. Need team Deathmatch and capture the flag. That one game type on mc3 is pretty fun on who can hold the flag the longest. The update needs to DROP. another reason to hate apple...
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
Dead trigger got their update with Santa... Hopefully we're not too late behind...
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
Just what they need santa & his squad of elves on zone control... lol
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Metallice:
I see nothing wrong with turrets. Emp grenade and they are gone.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
They are also great in a pinch, like when everyone but you is dead and respawning and your in the trenches alone on invasion duking it out with 4 other people. :D

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
I love my turrets too. Not a lot of people knows how to use it too.

They're not meant to kill.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Metallice:
Exactly they only do 7 damage... they aren't killers... plus emps take them out easily.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Okay first or second tier turret guys?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] SirLance99:
I'm currently at lvl 23. Tomorrow is the last day before reset. I'm going for lvl 25
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mikehulme1983:
Can you add me to the list please mikehulme32
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] PhantasmRezound:
I haven't seen that glitch either, but I'm guessing there will be more than one map that will have an issue with this on release day. I found a similar glitch area on the Shadowgun expansion pack.

Yesterday on DeadZone, I got knocked down during CQC in a deathmatch and fell through the floor. However, the game simply killed me in freefall and said I commited suicide.

That said, hope the code gets tightened up, been sending detailed feedback. Hope I run into some of ya today before release, already seen a few names in combat. :3
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
I played a few with ya lol
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] azoller1:
We should have a scheduled time for all of us nexus 7 shadow gun dead zone owners and play an ultimate death match, OK now I feel like a game nerd....:)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Sigh it gets put out officially tomorrow... But can't play it until six axis gets updated for 4.2 :(

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
I second this :thumbup:

Only thing holding me back from 4.2 right now lol
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] SirLance99:
Wait?! What?! Where did you get this from? Are you saying I will not be able to play this on my NEXUS 7 tomorrow? Now I'm pissed.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Lol calm down. Its gonna get fixed.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
I've run into the bullets coming out of walls tonight while playing...
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Rumor has it apple rejected the game to the app store. Wonder what bit means for us?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
probably due to one of the weapons names... lol http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPhone/Shadowgun:+Deadzone/news.asp?c=46619
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kieso:
Its out now! Go update. Looks great but I only played for 5 mins since I'm at work
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] metalwraith:
Cool, once the runt goes to sleep I'll be firing it up...
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kieso:
A little rum in the gums makes them sleepy
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Gah can't play without my ps3 control. :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Saenzscene:
How did you guys get it to work? I updated and I'm getting authentication failed. I cleared data and tried logging in again. Still no go.

I checked gaming thread and I will try to reset password. Hope it works.

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Reset the password worked for me.

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ROFLkopter:
Mine's downloading the update pretty slowly...

Sent from a Paranoid Nexus 7 with XDA Premium!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] CJHolderUK:
Add me CJHolderUK.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] heat361:
Me too I'm waiting for the update. I believe it is delayed because it is in review in the iTunes app store and after they get first dibs we will get it after.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mike96789:
Add me mike96789
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
Kidcarter93
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mygraine:
Turrets-for those times when you need suppression fire coz you whole team is busy effing around with s%#&storms.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
With the way I use it, I see no benefit to buy second tier...
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Awesoham:
Heh, right there :o but I totally rocked the exam. :cowboy:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] geejay008:
geejay008

Mainly using Galaxy S3 i9305 and only touchscreen controls... at least until i can get my hands on a bluetooth gamepad... =_=

Still rocking it at lvl 32 @ the mo, happily ripping people to bits using agony and shredder... sh*tstorm II usage is just isn't my thing, though i do have the gun fully upgraded just to see what the fuss was about, very OP AOE tbh... >_<

nonetheless, i kill more peeps very quickly with the assault weapons combo, so I'm sticking to my guns... so to speak... ^_^ ...and it's quite satisfying picking rocket spammerz from afar using the shredder... ^_^

Hope to see more EU guys joining the EU servers... its my usual hangout... ^_^

Oh, and wall glitch exploiters can go f*ck a duck... it's the only thing that stops me from playing more ZC, too many peeps exploiting the glitch... especially in renegade port, almost every game i play will always have someone in the boxes with their health and ammo crates. =( Only way to get them is using the OP AOE of sh*tstorm II blasts, but you got to sort of know where they are in the walls... =(

...so I'm mainly dukeing it out more on DM, at least until the update comes out with the wall glitch fixed... =/
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kanivier:
For now u won't but when u reach rank 40 then u will a lot of cash @ disposal then u will be able to buy it
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
Well if i got the money to throw, sure why not. But either way, there's no significant benefit at all except the extra range...
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mwhite5471:
It has a much better range...don't believe the research numbers...it can be placed outside most EMP throws.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] uansari1:
Another cheater.. Can someone post this on MF's forum please? Really sucks to have to play with these ****ers.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] geejay008:
...or you can post it yourself there... ^_~

http://www.madfingergames.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=32
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Nick Fury:
scarter12
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kanivier:
Add me also Kanivier
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] uansari1:
Done. ;)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] -SW-:
Yeah turrets have long range but aren't meant to kill. They're to weaken people as they try to pass by so it's easier to kill them. Useful when you're short handed of teammates.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Tried to play a game of dz keyword tried. Game I log into was the port map and I was on the blue team... Spawn in and see one of my teammates heading away from the battle towards the last spawn point. I follow the player because I know what he is up to of course i see him trying to glitch the wall. I give the player the thumbs down and he foolishly comes out. I then Block the entrance to the glitch and sit with my back against the wall not moving lool. The glitcher tries to push me and shoot at me blah blah whatever buddy. I'm like go to hell I'm not moving for the whole match if it comes to that. Player quits the game and so do I out of disgust. The game is currently a mess so until the update mc4 multiplayer be calling my name.

Players name was sydwinder or something close to that. Port blue side is where the cheaters will be since you can't glitch the red.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
Just had another, gay idoucher, was wondering why he had only 2 deaths.

But he did give me a good screen shot of his gun sticking out of the crate.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] geejay008:
..kudos to your efforts in stemming this terrible trend of glitch exploit, and it is sad that you had to sacrifice your own precious gaming time just to stand up against such douchery, and its even more a pity that decent players such as urself are inevitably moving away from the game for those very reasons...

And just to ease ur mind a little, the player sydwinder is indeed notorious in the community in the madfingergames.com forums, with a lot of screenshots of him caught in the act...

Knowing that the devs are active in their forums, his account might likely be reset if he carries on further and enough of us cry out for blood against that plonker.. ^_^

Either way, with the update coming doom hopefuly, all this won't be an issue eventually....
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kanivier:
So that's how they do it I always see guys(teammates) rushing there & I assume they maybe chasing an opponent who ran that WAY....... TALKING of mc4 am on rank 14 but it is full of cheaters too money,gold hackers
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kieso:
Another cheater.

How do I shrink the file size on my n7 so I can post it on MF?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] kanivier:
So they banned some guys & reset their accounts anyway.... the update might drop 2day....nice
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
TODAY! yay!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] SirLance99:
About freaking time!!!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] geejay008:
...sorry, but I'll believe it when I see it on my play store account. Nothing personal... ^_~

...I know how apple can drag an authorisation for an update to apps for AGES, and if MFG wants to sync the update's release cross-platform... we robots will have to wait with them... =_=
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] doublin:
We robots YAY ! :D
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
I just loaded it to photo bucket and used the IMG code.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] alixandre:
i used imageshack.us to shrink image
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] uansari1:
Two more in one game on the port map.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] -SW-:
Just went up against a team where they didn't even take point d on invasion. They were too busy trying to snipe and noob tube from a distance. We ransacked and pillage them so badly. We took point d. They tried to do that trick on invasion where you can cut across and go behind d and get to point c but they failed. Only two of them tried this, I kept mowing them down by cutting across to that small wall and raining down bullets. Then I gun was dry so I died. Three of their team sniped/noob tubed/gunning from afar. One was actually getting in the action, two were trying to outflank us.

This update... Whenever they say ASAP I just know it won't be for a while. They keep saying they're working on it, it'll be here soon. We've waited long enough. If it's that apple hasn't approved it, that's one thing. But I have a feeling they haven't even submitted it. :rolleyes:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Afia2k8:
Possibly updating now?

I'm trying to play the game now for ZC and it says "The game is under maintenance now. We are working on it!". I hope it's the fix to the glitch!

:o
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Saenzscene:
Just checked my twitter and looks like the update is on its way as I type this. The tweet says we won't be able to join matches for a few hours.

It is the 1.1 update. I'm not sure if that is the one with all the big changes.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] warnerblak:
The Madman

I'm in, add me or whatever: [XDA]Warnerblak
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Cisi

Post subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENTSPosted: 20 Dec 2012 17:57

MADFINGER

Joined: 26 Jul 2012 16:49

Posts: 79

We are going to deploy new servers and release 1.1.0 version of the game. It will take a few hours and you won't be able to join the game.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
woohoo!!! :D
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
Are U reading twitter? :D

Few hours.....ugh horrible. I need to noob toob
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] -SW-:
Hallelujah! :cowboy:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
Nevermind
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
I just bought item slot 2 and extra weapon 2 for $0. Anybody else?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
Yeah I got them aswell. Free stuff FTW :D
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Afia2k8:
Woohoo!!

Thanks mulletcutter. I've always wished I could afford these. Hopefully there won't be any backfire for doing this!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
Idk, but i just logged in to look around and had money to spend. Saw they were 0 and just went for it.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Saenzscene:
Dam. Already had them lol oh well. Sweet deal though.

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] krazeecracker:
Pwnage is coming thanks to mulletcutter! ;)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] heat361:
Thanks!! now I patiently wait for the update and my moga controller which has no update on the tracking number:confused:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
Is there no option to join a friends game on there?

I figured there would be, but I found no option to do so :/
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
There isn't.

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] jaystone:
Shhhhhhh ;)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
At least I know I'm missing nothing major by not being premium then xD
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
There isn't YET
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Word on the street the dz update has cleared icrap and should go LIVE in a hr. Game on!!!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Saenzscene:
Excellent!!! This is welcomed news to say the least. I'm ready to get owned by you level 40 and ups haha

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
Wonder what the poop shooters are going to use. . they will be lvl40 noobs

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

---- Current Update 1.1.0 ----

☣New Features:

* Two New Maps

* New Weapons Upgrades

* Chat in Main Menu

* Gangs (Play with Friends)

* New Hats

* Rewards for finishing Zone Control or DeathMatch

* Player Rank increased up to 50 now

☣ GamePlay Tweaks:

* Redesigned Weapons Stats

* Weapons&Gadgets Are Limited by Ranks

☣ Bug Fixing:

* Improved Hit Detection

* Fixed VoiceChat

* Fixed Network Code

* Renderer Optimization

* Fixed Wall Exploits in Several Levels

---- Next Update 1.2.0 ----

* New CTF Mode – Apple vs Androids

* New Maps for Zone Control and DeathMatch

* New Weapons

* New Gadgets
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
Can't wait for apple vs androids :p
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
I love eating APPLE pie... that update looks yummy!!!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mulletcutter:
I'm just wondering if it is now gone to lvl 50, and or already way above 40.....wont u be like a 50 already? Hahah

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 PM ----------

Updates live...go get it
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
I'm glad I'm getting okay speeds at the moment then. Phew :D
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
UPDATE IS OUT!!!!!

somewhere around rank 44 I'm gussing
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Bryan_:
We have to pay to use the Medkit? WTF!
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
It really is the end of the world. At least , it is as far as all those icrap users are concerned.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] MeLViN-oNe:
got the update and all my weapons are away Oo
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] heat361:
I think I lost some money:confused:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] jaystone:
Yes but you will have the correspond $$$ back and available to spend. That is the least of the issues that I have with this update....
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
All your money has been refunded though. ;)

And how gay I had run2 and now I can't buy it because I'm too low a rank. :banghead:

And WHY is this still here. :mad:

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Awesoham:
What is that third number beside your gold?
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
Holy **** its glorious....
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
Casino chips :)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
casino chips.. just like in dead trigger where you win prizes and such.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] KidCarter93:
My sprint button doesn't work :(
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Saenzscene:
Only thing I am kind of bummed about is the noob tube is still there. Also you have to have a premium account to have three item and weapon slots. :(
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] R3dbeaver:
Apparently i suck lol or they nerf agony. But wow upgraded with gold now?

And 120 mag size? Lol
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Get this I'm 300,000 XP ABOVE RANK 50!!!!! now isn't that some funny chit.

I was on for a short time setting up my inventory and got so many game invites it was just nuts. Very cool.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] jaystone:
Yes, the fully upgraded Agony is ~20 damage points below the pre-update level. That combined with the fact that I won't be able to repurchase run2 anytime soon has seriously impacted my gameplay. Right now I'm playing around with Shredder and run1 but it just isn't the same. :(
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Good now accept my friend request :p

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] mygraine:
I lost about 300 gold in the update, just played my first session and was noob tubed right out of the server. They nerfed the agony and not the dildo launcher? I'm pretty sure I am done with this game.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] cabagekiller:
I need more friends for this game. Half the players seem to have w mental defect.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
add me! :silly:

crystylizd :)
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] bolm86:
Add me to the list too Bolm86. Seems like with the new update without friends on there you can barely play.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
I checked my pending requesting and you were not there bro.

Personally I'm not diggin this update at all.
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Saenzscene:
Hey fudge. I got your request to play a match but it just kept searching for a match. I accepted and it just didn't find any match. I have not been able to connect with a couple of you guys. Blows.

Also with miguelvp and I couldn't even chat with you guys. It froze up. Don't think I was ignoring you all. I had to reboot.

Sent from my Nexus 7
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] Xelstyle:
At least they did the smart thing in refunding the money if they were going to nerf anything. Seriously though, they haven't really addressed the noobtube issue....

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] ÜBER™:
Weird i sent one like twice now :confused:
[Nexus 7 Themes and Apps] t_007_v2:
Don't worry about it bro! No worries. Me and Miguel were trying to figure it out with no luck... i tried to get in any mtch and nothing. the game is absolutely fried right now. Total bummer IMO.

The cowards did nothing to address the chitstorm really disapointed. They did adjust my bread and butter agony and warmonger wtf??? Bring the old dz back because this sucks!!