yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
righty, im actually getting ready to bin this XDA app, bloody thing keeps messing up and not sending posts!

So, take two...

The average Jo doesn't have the first clue about the sgs3 or what its capable of, they buy because perception is that its good, advertising is spot on both in store and external, the whole geeky mechanics of the IT word is behind it so reviews and news coverage tends to be positive, there is an element of word of mouth sales, but this largely comes from each other, not from the tiny minority of users that actually fiddle with their devices.

Samsung and Apple have achieved a remarkable success in the PR world, this cool factor and ability to make iphone and Galaxy house hold names is what has put them in such a position, if the media had burned them both they would not have been so successful, regardless of what the device is like. You need to remember, (and you probably wont like this but since its apart of my job I do have some credibility in the matter) people are like lemmings, they will do and like what they are told to do and like (within reason) the trick is telling them and getting them to believe it.

What is said doesn't even need to be true, if the perception of something is that its good or bad, it will become that dispite reality saying otherwise

I absolutely stick by my statement that MS knows what the market wants, but you have to take in to account the second part of my statement around PR, and MS is utterly crap at it. WP failed because it was compared to android and iOS by the news, by reviewers and by IT geeks, it was not judged by its own merits. This poor image sticks to the shoes of WP like a dog turd on a warm day, it never recovered from it and wont unless someone pulls out an ace of a marketing strategy. I have shown time and again with people that are average joes, that if you sit a WP and a android device down in front of them, they pick up the WP a lot quicker and prefer it.

I am NOT saying WP is better than android far from it, android does some cool stuff I admit, but you must base your opinion of the two device platforms by what they can do, not by what one or the other can or cant do. The negative attention WP got was what slowed sales, if you could roll back the clock, and spin the attention to a positive I can guarantee (subject to time paradoxes and end of the universe events) that WP would have done better.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
I'm not concerned with this vs that os.

if advertising matters that much, I should be driving a ford blah, eating mcdonalds every meal, wearing football jerseys 5x too big, and voting for someone for president and believing my one vote will change the world.

but... I'm not. you're telling me allllllll those folks buying iphones and android devices are lemmings, and all that is needed are a good press, and anyone can sell a phone.

if that were true, I've seen good reviews. glowing reviews. gusssssshing reviews. I don't watch tv, but I hear there is advertising happening.

we have

lemmings (check)

advertising (check)

reviews (check)

I'm back to my qyestion about microsoft not understanding the market, because everything else is accounted for.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
nope, im saying that everyone is a lemming (target) in terms of mass populations ;) you cant look at individuals tho, single people are too unpredictable.

The mere fact you are aware of Ford and McDonalds is a win for them. its funny you bring up the biggest PR exercise of the year, the presidential race, you might not agree with it but everything about what they do is designed and planned to make you think the way they want you too. Its not an exact science, but when you deal with mass populations its pretty damn accurate if you get it right, the trick is getting it right and then keeping it right.

people don't like to think they are being controlled but I can assure you, we all are, PR is the fluffy name given to the war over your .....wallet ;)

---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

im not sure if your talking about your own imaginary phone or your own WP here, if you are talking about your WP then they also have a massive negative PR momentum which is, at least for WP7 insurmountable, I mean you could drop by any android or iphone forum and bring up WP and you will get torn to pieces, most of that negativity will be nonsense and perhaps not even true, but it is what has stuck to those users, "unsticking" that mentality is very hard.

We had in the UK the BBC running "reviews" on WP where they spent the whole time saying its Good but not an iphone, that single phrase is enough to tell people that its worse than a iphone, that's how it reads to people, but that isn't what was said is it. The BBC helped give momentum to a negative image, which in turn helped turn people against WP, the BBC is just one wheel, there are many, and wheels within other wheels, complex but highly interesting stuff :)

If you get the media behind your product you will find its like trying to stop an oil tanker with row boat, the iPhone 5 has taken a big hit against it which has slowed that momentum but not stopped it
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
you're right were all being controlled...

I stop for traffic lights

and pedestrians

etc

the problem is, people have started looking for the tiny "x" to close an annoying popup instead of the big green button that says "submit" without realizing it. alllll those millions of unneeded message boxes turned people into a newly conditioned rat that presses on for a new reward ?

hmmm, I bet you have stories. man do I. :) no sarcasm implied.
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Well said. I think that's why MSFT's marketing has sucked...WP was SUCH a radical but necessary break from Windows Mobile, which was ****ty in the eyes of Joe Avg but a workable OS in places like XDA. Most folks won't dev or tinker so you need to sell them something that works out of the box very sell. WP8 is the step in that direction. Phones like the Lumia 920 will help because the hardware is on par with what's in the market.

I like what MSFT has done in some of the billboards I've seen in NYC - at least for the Windows 8 campaign. They need to ramp it up and do more clever marketing for Windows Phone. Show me an ad shot in parts on a Lumia 920, like a live concert to highlight the low light prowess of the camera. Show me someone freezing their ass of in the snow waiting on a bus and a guy pulling out his Lumia 810 and using gloves to check the weather or an email. Show an 8X hooked up to a portable speaker and people dancing to the "crisp" Beats Audio amp powered sound. Show someone using City Lenses on a Lumia 820 to go to a restaurant. There are enough strong points hardware wise to get people buzzing and when they come in the store it, get smart sales folk in their faces to help them try it, and more people will buy it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
lol, none taken

you think those annoying adverts that pop up with the tiny x and a massive submit button don't work?

you think that people don't reply to those emails saying that uncle bob in Jordan is going to give you millions, you just need to come here with 20k in your pocket to secure the deal?

they do it because people fall for it, you an I wouldn't, but we don't fall in to the average joe category, the fact your on this website helps to show me that and the fact you are at least aware the pop up ads are a con ;)

anyhow, this is getting off topic...
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Has people seen the leak from that Brazilian side saying that WP7.8 will come next year? Do you think that they would put a notification centre in that update too?
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
I think at this stage we really have no idea what is going to happen or when its going to happen

If MS are waiting until next year there can only be three reasons, I think...

1, they want to give as much sales time to WP8 as possible, get us WP7 users to update

2, They are still changing it because they were two busy with WP8 to bother with WP7.8

3, They are still changing it because a lot has changed

I cant see that changing the UI qualifies as a lot of changes so we can read number 3 as features we don't yet know about

I live in hope that we will be surprised but don't hold your breath, apart from the xbox team MS is well known for its leaks, and they have been strangely leak free from that old early 7.8 leak a while back
[Windows Phone 7 General] Turbotab:
News for Lumia owners, we may be getting Lock Screen updates, just like WP8!

"The lock screen will be customizable - users can pick an app to update the lockscreen periodically, something that sounds a lot like WP8's Live Apps service."

Source

http://www.gsmarena.com/leaked_nokia_docs_reveal_windows_phone_78_features-news-5083.php
[Windows Phone 7 General] buffalosolja42:
Waiting on 7.8 on Lumia 900

Whenever this comes I can give my device to my wife :) I would rather wait and do that so she will want ask why they look so different. Loving WP7/8 they are great for my needs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mcosmin222:
Microsoft will not forget the 7.8 users. This will not happen because:

a) They want to show that Windows Phone is a more stable platform. Unlike Android where you buy the top notch phone today, and maybe tomorrow google will come up with something that makes your phone obsolete(they like doing that every new version of Android). They want to show customers that when a new major update is released, old phones will not get the shaft.

b)They will release cheaper 7.8 devices. The lower features in the OS allows them to make an entry in the low level market. A lot of people will want those over Android.

c) They want all their devices to share a common look and feel.

Given that the 7.8 release is take its sweet time to come by, this is a good sign that they want to bring us nice stuff. A new start screen could have been done in hours.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Don't know what you guys have been seeing, but the WP8 commercials have been great.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
and yet ive seen only a handful.

Every third advert on TV at the mo is the Kindle Fire HD, I can list a whole bunch of features and ive never so much as wanted to look at but ive absorbed that information, whether I want to buy that or not is irrelevant, if I was going to buy that type of product I will feel obligated to at least compare other offerings to the Kindle Fire, multiply that feeling by millions and it soon becomes obvious that the advertising will work. Apple did the same with iphone, say dancing silhouettes and almost everyone would relate those two words to the Ipod

WP is lacklustre at best. Its almost like they went in to advertising with the intent of spending the smallest amount of money possible, which Is fine if your using targeted advertising for specific people, but not when your trying to put your product in the minds of the largest body of people possible.

Not saying the adverts that are out there are bad, Nokia have done some great ones, but its the quantity of them that's lacking. MS must use some of the mountain of cash it has to completely saturate online, broadcast and paper mediums to make it a known brand.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Thing is WP is known. Maybe WP8 isn't known at all, but WP is. I've asked countless people about them, and they all know what it is.

The problem is, getting people to want it; I don't know anyone besides myself that wants one.

I see a ton of WP commercials and a ton of adverts. I haven't seen any Nokia ones though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Dinchy87:
i have some news on 7.8

the upgrade is officialy RTM'd and Microsoft and Nokia held yesterday an event in Singapur about Windows Phone 8, their the people was told Windows Phone 7.8 is just an meter of days, and week or weeks for the update to come! i must say the weeks was not told as multiple weeks it was like week! :) so we can expect some news very soon!
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
Then there is a big difference between these markets as whilst people know that a WP is a phone over here, they don't have a clue what it is about, asking anyone with a small amount of knowledge, they just then regurgitate the same old BS that various anti MS zealots have been pouting for months which perhaps was true pre NODO but is now utter nonsense. But generally, the average joe, the normal person really has no real idea what WP is and thus discounts it before its given half a chance.

Nokia does some adverts here, not many, I do see several TV programs that appear to be sponsored by nokia and co (they all running around with the same phones) which is actually pretty good, almost subliminal advertising but by an large, you see more advertising for Durex then WP devices

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

Cool Beans, lets see what happens, even a solid release date before xmas would be nice
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Both Nokia and HTC are having a few issues with getting the 8X and the 920 into the stores. Nokia hasn't pushed many 920 commercials for this reason. Not sure what is going on here, but they need to fix that quick.

I was sorely disappointed in the T-Mobile launch of both the 8X and Lumia 810, at least in the few NYC stores I went to. Either the demo phones were being charged and not available for use, of they were out and the WiFi/internet connections in store were slow as hell. I had to go into an AT&T store to demo the 8X. Hopefully T-Mobile picks their game up and this isn't indicative of the launch nationwide. I still like the feel of the 810 over the 8X...:)
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
that's exactly what MS needed to avoid, Apple had the luxury of being the sole provider of hardware meaning it could control the market, MS lost out on WM because it was ignorant of change and more importantly they took the heat because of others mistakes, MS must do everything possible in the early days to get brand awareness, even if that means subsidising devices and paying for the adverts themselves. Its critical that MS can shake this (incorrect) view of WP that many have dreamt up, its holding back what is actually a very good PHONE, please note my choice of words there, I didn't say PDA or PPC etc, we all know android can do more, but what WP does do it does better. WP is a phone first, not a pocket computer, the sooner folk realise that and stop reviewing it as something its not supposed to be the better the reception it might get
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Agreed. That's why most of the PPC tweakers went with Android after MSFT pulled that function from WP in the remake. Personally, I don't need the raw horsepower in my daily driver all the time at the cost of good battery life. That's one of my likes for WP...battery life is good, compared to Android. I understand that I will never have battery life as good as my E63, but Galaxy Nexus doesn't always cut it.

I really was appalled though when I went to those few T-Mobile stores last week. At least in the AT&T stores I stopped in, the Lumias and 8X were east to find and test out. Plus the sales reps appeared more knowledgeable. I do hope the T-Mobile reps crank their game up this week, especially if VZW launches the 822 and 8X nicely. I must say that i do like the equalizer on the Lumias more than the Beats Audio in the 8X. Now, when can we create playlists on the go? :confused:
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Can we get back on topic here for a sec? Its nice to see the demand for the 8X and 920, but I'm concerned that people won't be able to get it here in the US on Black Friday on the cheap. I also wish that T-Mobile who get aggressive with their pricing on that date too to go along with the Samsung Android sale they ran last week.

Speaking of T-Mobile, I haven't seen a Lumia 810 or 8X commercial yet. I hope this seemingly soft launch in comparison to AT&T doesn't backfire....
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
I haven't seen anything from tmobile only Verizon and AT&T.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
Right there, on their home page with animated flash and errthang:

http://www.t-mobile.com/

And

http://windows-phone.t-mobile.com/

Its not going to sell on tmo, they know this so they are focusing on sgs3.
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
That's the problem though. You release two good phones at those prices just around the time when you can drop the prices for your Android lineup to keep it selling in droves...I don't get it. Of course the SGS3 and the other Samsung droids will keep T-Mobile from not pushing WP. Its why you won't see the ATIV S on T-Mobile either...that may cut into Sammy's T-Mobile droid sales.

It is kinda sad, as T-Mobile has always been a good Windows partner. Perhaps they plan to do something after Black Friday to get those Xmas shoppers with a WP sale. Yet you go into N AT&T store and hear their rps talk about WP - they sound like they actually have a clue and are pushing the devices. It is a real shame indeed...it is also why I don't think the Lumia 920 is coming to T-Mobile after the 6 month exclusivity ends with AT&T.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
Here's the thing, the networks don't really give a **** what they sell, what is good or what's up an coming, they care about making money an will do anything to do so. The OEMs want to make a device for the cheapest price possible to inflate their margins, MS on the other hand is the name behind the phone, you have a problem it becomes a WP problem, specifically that's not always true but generally speaking its WP brand tat takes the hammering, MS absolutely must establish a good brand, at the moment it doesn't matter how good or bad a individual phone or network is its the brand that matters, whch is why networks latch on to android, because it has that brand, people forget that 70-80% of the devices are a pile of ****e.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
you're think of it from a-fan-of-some-os standpoint:

you want wp to succeed.

any sales of android, iphone, whoevers os is -not- to attempt to undermine wp sales. its simply to get people in the door to buy, and buy ANYTHING, NOW.

the carriers don't give a ratts ass about which os sells, from which vender, with any featureset. alllllllll the carriers care about is making dollars, and signing people up for contracts. generally, once a contract is signed, that customer will repeat, again and again.

att, tmo, verizon, none of them give a **** what sells, so long as they get paid. its working for them, (android, ios), the customer knows what they want, why rock the boat ?
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Correction: I'm thinking from the perspective of a consumer who wants best value for his dollar.

I've been using cell phones since 1998. Competition in the marketplace drives innovation. Innovation leads to better products and more value for consumers. There are many people dropping contracts to go monthly because of the economy. I was off contract for 2 years before I re upped to save on my monthly bill, based on own needs.

You're right in that the carriers don't care what OS sells. But the REAL truth is that like any good investor, a diversified portfolio nets highest return. So having WP as a viable 3rd option is a win for all, including the carriers. I like choice. I don't want to be stuck with Android or iOS as my choices, as it makes both Apple and Google lazy and spend too much time in courtrooms with lawsuits rather than in test labs developing innovations.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ don't forget about the third contender RIM.

I'm sure WP will make strides this quarter though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
your right that choice Is better for all concerned, but there are additional costs in to supporting a third brand, staff training, the cost of buying units, I don't know if networks are SOR?, if they are not then they will not want to buy units that might not sell, which comes back to brand awareness, theres also the distinct possibility that a network has been "paid off" or given a bung to "help" senior management make a decision. One company many have an affiliation with android through no more than the person at the top is a MS hating Linux fanboi, which is exactly why MS should spend some of its 40 billion dollars on "priming" the market, itll cost in the short term but it will have massive returns if they can do it right....

that's some gamble with MSs track record mind! :(

who are they again? ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
RIM , that company that owned corporate communication, had ALL the mindshare, and then stagnated and lost it. kinda like another company were all familiar with.... ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
I didn't forget about good old RIM. I would love to see them still viable in the market. Remember, that whole talk about having additional staff was what was being said when BB was king, feature phones were still relevant and true smart phones were just starting up.

Well all agree that carriers will invest if they feel the need for a product. AT&T is a prime example. If you look at how they handled Android...they had some early Android devices that were downright chicken****. Once they got the Galaxy S and saw how the demand for Android picked up, they got better devices. Now their offerings are very good. Sony, HTC, Samsung, LG...that's diverse - not the budget style stuff Boost and Virgin Mobile carry.

My issue about complaining with T-Mobile's launch is based on how they sell phones anyways. In my neck of the woods, many T-Mobile stores don't have live demo units. You got to ask for the demo phones. With T-Mobile's Android lineup, you don't need to demo it as much...with WP, you need to let people play with it to get them used to it. So when someone asks for a WP to try and either the battery is dead or it is charging, who wants to wait?
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
your second paragraph is the answer to the third. the carriers don't care about keeping the phones charged, or sales materials at the front door, unless people are coming in asking about the product in question. they will expend the greatest energy to sell the greatest demanded phone.

substitute phone with car, fan, boat, apple peeler, etc

until folks are interested in having "microsoft windows phone eight" roll off their tongue at the sales counter, there won't be energy expended.
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
I agree with you some. Let's see what happens over the next few months. I think if MSFT is able to put out WP7.8 in time and to ramp up app support, we might see some takers this holiday season. But I guess once people get more adjusted to Windows 8, you may see more tongue wagging and interest in WP8..:).
[Windows Phone 7 General] Turbotab:
Confirmation for an 'early' 2013 release for WP 7.8.

We know you’re eager to get the Windows Phone 7.8 update, and we want you to know that we’re working closely with our hardware and carrier partners to get it tested, approved, and rolled out to as many devices as possible in early 2013. As we work to quickly get this in the hands of our loyal users, we’re also striving to deliver a high-quality release and ensure a smooth transition for our widely expanded services.

Thank you for your support of Windows Phone.

-Terry

Corporate Vice President, Windows Phone

http://blogs.windows.com/windows_ph...012/11/28/an-update-on-windows-phone-7-8.aspx
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
Destilled of corporate speak...

Maybe in the next 4 months.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
indeed, its also full of pass the buck blame naming, reading between the lines we have 7.8 ready, but being held up oems and networks for an unknown period of time simply because it's not in the interest of any oem or network to ever update their devices
[Windows Phone 7 General] trappxl:
Indeed. I think that MSFT's plan all along was to push bout WP8, then take the features from it that aren't hardware tied, test ulit and put it...hence I wouldn't be surprised to see it in late March...:mad:

Have people seen the news about the HD2 booting up WP8 via DFT? Got to give the devs here credit...