yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
I am the Attorney who wrote that comment on Droid Life and wrote the FCC Complaint. Please direct all your questions to me as I'm happy to answer them and help move things forward. A couple of things:

1) To those that think unlocking a bootloader is pointless with all the workarounds, I don't want to hear it, if that's how you feel, you're entitled to your opinion but please don't pollute this thread with your useless comments. Help or get out. PS: if the bootloader gets unlocked I fully expect either a) a statement from anyone saying it was pointless thanking the community if they choose to unlock or b) you DO NOT unlock your bootloader :)

2) I have not taken Verizon to court, the FCC did not take Verizon to court. The FCC made a determination that Verizon is violating the C Block regulation (it's a regulation, not law, there's a difference) and fined them. The violation was in regard to tethering apps and Google wallet. While my complaint touched on these things, the gravamen of my complaint was regarding locked bootloaders and custom ROMs, which I believe there is still a significant argument to be made.

3) Anyone who wants to read my full complaint (and send it to the FCC or their US Senators/Representatives under their name) it is located here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/109uYmho_6daIpAl0ACPSFoK0qrd6K9wp5yeqM7dEaoI/edit edit it accordingly as the beginning part was specific to me

4) Keep me informed and up to date about anything. The more minds the better. I've subscribed to this topic so I'll check in when I can.

5) As of yet I can't really think of a cause of action to take Verizon to court other than an injunction, but I'm not even thinking about a lawsuit unless it's funded or I get some help from other attorneys. I have a full time job and I'm learning to develop in my free time so I just don't have the time to pursue a giant lawsuit by myself for free right now :)
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] Farabomb:
This isn't about the bootloader, this is about you having the ability to choose what you want to do with YOUR device. Would you be ok with spending the money on a new computer only to bring it home and be locked out of the admin account? That can prevent you from loading programs and using the device you paid for to it's fullest. It also makes it possible to make the device obsolete sooner becasue you don't have full control.

It's possible that Verizon is doing something against the law, that's up to the FCC and the lawyers. The people flinging crap in this thread about "why unlock it" don't realize that it's about your CHOICE that they are taking away. Yes we have a workaround. That's all well and good but there is no reason for it. Continue to let companies and government do what they want to us and you will hear the phrase "your papers please" in your future.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] AndroidGraphix:
What do you recommend would be the next step with FCC?

If the complaint has been filed, have you received a response?

How much does it costs to submit a complaint like this to the FCC?

Aside from donating to a cause, what can we as members do to facilitate this complaint going forward?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
1) Use my complaint (provided in my post above) and in the first part where it says Verizon Wireless against... fill in your name and in the last part where it says "Respectfully Submitted" put your info in (Name, address, telephone, email)

2) I filed the complaint with the FCC and got a BS canned response from Verizon, I refiled and got the same canned BS response. After my Senator followed up I got a response from the FCC saying I could file a formal complaint, but clearly that was just a dead end since I filed 2 formal complaints and pushed the issue with my senator. Though I guess someone at the FCC caught wind because that 7/31 decision seemed to agree with my complaints and the timing was a little too coincidental

3) Completely free: go to fcc.gov and click on file consumer complaint. Email, fax or mail my complaint with your information filled in to them. I would also send it to your US Senators. Anyone from Minnesota, I think Senator Franken would be a great person to follow up with something like this.

4) In order to help out, SPREAD THE WORD! The more people that are vocal about this the better. When I was doing this with Moto I tried to get Droid Life, Android Central and Phandroid to post an article but none of them were interested. I say, spam them and get them to post an article with my complaint and what people can do. Again, the more people that are complaining and vocal, the more likely a response will be had. Give people my complaint to fill in, email the fcc chairman and commissioners (google to find their emails, it's just firstname.lastname@fcc.gov). If you (or someone you know who is interested in this type of thing) is an attorney, feel free to PM me and maybe we can talk about something. Again, I don't have a tremendous amount of time to invest in this for no pay and by myself. But if there were enough attorney's interested I'd do it pro bono (for free) with the help of a group of attorneys.

And as I said, if you have questions about Verizon's policy and potential violations, ask me and I'll try to answer them. I did all the research and writing myself in my spare time and I think I nailed it insofar as the legal issues. There is next to no case law on the specific issues so I had to make legal arguments based on what little resources I had and the plain language of the regulation. Now at least that the FCC has released this decision, there is some precedent that they are actually willing to enforce a regulation instead of being a puppet for the wireless carriers (though I'm not completely convinced they're autonomous, 1.25 million to Verizon is nothing when their profits were 2.4 billion last year, that's .0005% of their profits for those keeping score at home)
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] C0ntr0lfr33k:
Good Luck! Hopefully we can get some traction on this. :good:
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] Relentless D:
^^This^^

Before I got my locked down GS3 I had an og evo 4g on sprint. That sucker was labeled EOL by htc/sprint loooong ago yet 2 days after JB was released we had 2 different jb roms out in the wild. There was a team (TEAM D.I.R.T w00t!) porting and developing innovative, unique, fast and stable roms almost daily. Running these roms, my old evo felt faster, more cutting edge and got better battery life than my GS3. I would still be using my evo if sprint worked at all in the city I am currently living in.

What is the difference here? Dev support on a locked down phone. The only way a phone can remain relevant to it's users (ok, it's xda users) for more than a year is with support from developers. The only way to get that dev support is with an unlocked phone.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] piiman:
LOL

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

Were those block C devices? The FCC as already ruled against them for tethering and blocking tether apps for violating the same agreement. I think the argument could be made that these devices should be treated just like PC's are on broadband networks. Where we are free to do what we want with our device. You know like choose what OS, what software, how you want it to look, etc etc. After all they are basically little computers that just happen to have the ability to connect to a voice net work and make phone calls also.

I'm glad the have the Kexec but that doesn't give VZW a break from their legal requirement..

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

You and your ilk 's willingness to let VZW (or any Corporation) skirt the Law and their legal requirements is very alarming.

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

That's what a lot of people don't seem to get . This could have far more and bigger benefits than just getting the boot loader unlocked.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
Your right, the FCC regulations are there for a purpose. Up until 7/31 the FCC was allowing Verizon (and other carriers who had similar policies) to flagrantly violate the regulation (I try to make the distinction between law and regulation as law is promulgated by a legislative body whereas a regulation is made by an agency). Verizon has operated with impunity, I mean, they knew (or should have damn well known) that blocking Google Wallet and tethering apks was a DIRECT VIOLATION of C Block as the regulation says IN BLACK AND WHITE. I've cited the relevant sections in my complaint. Suffice to say, until the FCC actually did something, Verizon was more than happy to abuse the regulations and screw its customers.

If we as consumers (I have very little faith in the FCC as they seem to be in the pockets of most companies, at least their decisions seem to indicate as much) do not call BS on these companies, no one will and in the end, we're the ones who lose. If Verizon is allowed to continue it's policy then guess what, why only charge $30 for tethering? If you don't have another option, they can charge whatever they want. Consumers have driven change, it just takes a vocal group to bring that change about. Keep complaining, keep contacting your representatives. These people have jobs for a reason, and contrary to what typically happens, it's not to create political dynasties and line their pockets, it's to REPRESENT YOUR INTERESTS! If they are not doing that, they are not doing their job and should be voted out of office!

Now the trick is expanding the definition of "applications that compete with a carrier's services" to include unlocked bootloaders and custom ROMs. I think there's a colorable argument to be made for a custom ROM to "compete" directly against a "carrier approved ROM." But in any case, Verizon should not have ultimate control over a device because it so happens to connect to their network. It's akin to allowing an ISP to control what you put on your computer. I try to stay diplomatic and not revert to ad-homonym attacks, but if one were to believe that Verizon should be allowed to control how you use your device and what you can and can't load on it, you're clearly not informed enough to have an intellectual conversation on the matter, go buy an iPhone and enjoy your walled garden.

I do not want to come off as unappreciative of the devs who got KEXECs working, as that's an amazing accomplishment and just goes to show that ingenuity will not be kept down regardless of the totalitarian policies afoot. However, I'm sure that these devs would rather have a completely unlocked bootloader than to have to hack together a workaround.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] piiman:
VZW also has to play the the rules and by law can't make rules that break the rules or the law.

We are finding a way to unlock it FOREVER. If they find the switch to unlock the boot loader on the S3 how long before they make a new switch/lock for the next devices? Make the FCC force them and its done forever for every one on block c not just the siii.

Also these are handheld 600.00 pc's not tubs of glue and I think must of us are acting like third graders at the least :)
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] NAU420:
I take it that no one read my post about Free Press. I thank you for what you're doing, but we are the little guys. Free Press is the ones that won the court case and have the money and power to win. You need to read my post and let everyone know that we have a big dog to fight for us. Please read my post please (Free Press)..
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] tonu42:
As that lawyer guys said a few posts back, its NOT the LAW to have the bootloader unlocked its a REGULATION. So therefore everyone of you whos moaning and groaning about Verizon breaking the law. Wrong.

Honestly guys if we are going to have this debate here, (which I think is getting fun and constructive) atleast get your facts right. And as I said in previous posts I'm on your side guys who want it unlocked. I believe it will be unlocked some day either by verizon, samsung, or adamoutler. But it will. But for right now guys, we have a pretty solid developments action going on right now so just chill out guys?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] piiman:
perhaps you would be so kind as to provide a link to it (possible again) as I did not read it.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
Can you expand on this please? To my knowledge, there has been no court case involving the FCC or Verizon in regard to unlocking the bootloader, and certainly nothing has been won on this front by any party. In fact, again, to my knowledge, no one has really broached this topic as when I was doing the research for my complaint it was a novel (new) issue of law and the arguments I made were really the first of their kind in terms of bootloader policies and FCC regulations.

I would like to know about this Free Press, perhaps they'd like a hand, because it seems to me that I'm one of the only attorneys pushing this issue with the technological familiarity and know-how to understand, analyze and argue the positions.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] NAU420:
I'll send you a pm
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
I'm going to have to agree and disagree with you. I agree that is in fact important to distinguish between a law and a regulation. A law is promulgated by a legislative body and the breaking of a law can be prosecuted criminally by District Attorneys or US Attorneys (depending on whether the issue is state or federal). A regulation is made up by an agency, the breaking of which is pretty much enforced by they agency, however, I believe you may be able to file a suit in court (in NY it's called an Article 78, I'm not exactly sure what it is the federal system, might be a Writ of Mandamus) to have a court force the agency to make a determination.

Where I'm going to disagree with is: Yes, while there are workarounds and active development, that is no excuse to just say "eh.... good enough." This laissez faire attitude will not accomplish the community's goals in the long run. In fact in will empower carries like Verizon to continue to abuse policies to the detriment of the consumer. If we, as consumers, allow companies to take advantage of federal agencies asleep at the wheel (see the Wall St. disaster and the housing market crisis) bad things are only to come. So while I agree that we should be thankful that there are devs willing to work their asses off (for no or very little money) to bypass these policies, in no way should we let it remain the status quo.

Oh, I just wanted to add/point out that prior to submitting my complaint I ran it by a respected dev from our community, Nitroglycerin33, who told me all my technical aspects were correct in regard to what an unlocked bootloader can and can't do/cause. Again, I just want to reiterate that I have nothing but the greatest respect for these devs and the hardwork they do, I just want to make their job easier :)
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] Karl:
You might want to give the EFF a call if you haven't already their pockets could be helpful

Mark M. Jaycox

Legal Intake Coordinator

jaycox@eff.org

415.436.9333 x 128

Sent from my Galaxy S III using Forum Runner
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] duxup:
Kudos to the folks putting in this kind of effort.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
I would but a) they're not hiring and my work is my own and b) I won't give my work to an organization and then be cut out of the loop. If this is going to move forward I want to be front and center because this is something I've worked very hard on and I have a tremendous interest in this area. That may sound selfish but if I were to bill a client for the amount of work I've put into this it'd be in the neighborhood of $10,000 and to just hand it off is untenable.

I also sent my complaint to EFF and they never returned my email. While I like their goals and would love to work for an organization like that, I can't help but feel slightly brushed aside. I could be a tremendous resource to them (Magna graduate, written over 70 opinions for federal judges, have 100% win ratio in private practice and my in depth understanding of technology is a rarity in the legal field) yet they have no interest, so I'm not inclined to bend over backwards for them. That was probably meaner than it should have been, but I don't like being ignored by people I'm trying to help, really turns me off.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] Karl:
understood

Sent from my Galaxy S III using Forum Runner
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] morrowa2:
EDNYLaw, perhaps if your efforts were successful, you could claim the bounty for the bootloader cracking. I know it's meant more for the devs trying to crack/bypass the encrypted bootloader, but I would say if one person is directly responsible for unlocking all of our gimped devices, they would be entitled to it. It's nowhere near the $10,000 you would charge for your time in private practice, but it's better than nothing.

Just a thought... anybody else care to weigh in?
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] tonu42:
No that defeats the intention of the bounty. In the OP on bounty page.

Please be advised that if Samsung or Verizon is to release the unlocked bootloader or tool to process unlocking of the bootloader prior to any member of XDA's submission, this bounty automatically becomes invalidated.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
Honestly, I'm not in it for the money at all. If I was, I'd have never started the research to begin with. I have a full time job that pays me (albeit significantly less than I deserve ;) ) The money thing was a bad example as I don't want anyone thinking I want money for what I'm doing (unless they feel the compulsion to pay me, I'm no fool :) ) I'd be happy to collaborate with other attorneys and pursue this for free or in the alternative, help this community move forward in filing more and more complaints against Verizon with the FCC. This community has helped me out a lot with questions I've had, the devs are some of the nicest people I've ever spoke to and I love the real sense of community that comes from people working together without some financial incentive (usually to screw some group of people over somehow). If I was rich and didn't have to worry about paying bills, I'd devote my time to figuring out the solution.

My $10,000 number was just to put into perspective how much time I've put in and the fact that I wasn't inclined to hand off my work to a group that has ignored my requests to HELP THEM and then be cut out of the loop in the process.

I hope that people continue to get excited about this and really want to pull together as a community to take on the carriers. I've never heard people more passionate (passionately pissed off that is) than when they talk about how their wireless carrier is raping them and providing next to no service; and the line, well just switch doesn't cut it, because in one form or another, they all screw their customers be it from charging for everything under the sun, insisting on locked bootloaders or crappy service.

Wow, I'm quite verbose. Sorry :D But as I've said, I'm here to help, answer questions, and maybe if enough people are motivated, figure out a way to beat Verizon.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] morrowa2:
I figured as much, thanks for clarifying.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
If OP could put this in the OP it'll probably be helpful:

When I say fill in your information I mean:

I've bolded the things you need to fill in :)

STATE OF YOUR STATE	)

)ss:

COUNTY OF YOUR COUNTY	)

----------------------------------------------------------------X

In re Verizon Wireless

YOUR NAME

Complainant,

-against-

Verizon Wireless

----------------------------------------------------------------X

You do not need an FCC Complaint Number, the reason I had a complaint number was I had previously sent in a complaint.

Make sure you also "sign" it at the bottom (last page) above where it says Complainant
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] AndroidGraphix:
I'm on it . I'll update the op tonight.

Good bye HTC Rezound, hello Galaxy S3!
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] newuser134:
But just bc there is a way, doesn't mean what Verizon did is right and should get away with it.I don't think you understand the point, it takes resources and time to find a way around something, if the bootloader was unlocked, the devs could have spent that time for dev and roms from the beginning, and we would be much further ahead now.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] AtLemacks:
Directing people from my thread to this one if they haven't seen this yet. Hopefully between direct contact with Samsung, and this work, we can get some sort of response. I wouldn't be opposed to Samsung unlocking the device themselves, so long as they continue with future devices. I would also like to stop Verizon from setting a precedent that the consumer is just going to sit idle until a big dog plays their cards.

Also, to all of the people saying, "we don't need it, etc..." go say that to the countless dev's who have been hard at work to crack the bootloader on all the Verizon devices. I encourage you to let them know their work is in vein so that you won't have to worry about ever flashing any custom, or semi-custom experience.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] KennyG123:
Thread cleaned of the earllier crap

Name calling and general trolling will not be tolerated

Thank you EDNYlaw for what you are doing and adding intelligence to this thread

Please all carry on as you have the last few pages

Thank you for your cooperation

Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] SerialTurd:
One thing I always wondered is when you buy a computer which has a built in 3g cell card, you can change the OS on it. Isn't that essentially the same as what we have here? A handheld computer with a cell signal? We should be able to change out the OS to whatever we want.
[Verizon Samsung Galaxy S III] EDNYLaw:
I think that's a very good point. If this whole thing picks up more momentum I may amend my complaint to include your example. Even further, if I get whatever Verizon's LTE card for my laptop is called, I can do everything and more on my laptop that my phone can do, but somehow this doesn't affect their network? I call BS on the whole thing.

As I said, if this picks up more momentum (and I get some free time, right now I'm aiming on loading Linux on my i7 2.6 Ghz dual core 8GB Ram with ssd beast laptop and syncing AOKP repos and messing around and breaking **** :)) I want to add your analogy and also cite the FCC's 7/31 decision regarding Verizon.

So keep up the chatter and the good work and positive thoughts! Eventually we'll win against Verizon, it just takes enough people speaking up about it.