yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
I respect you're opinion and have no right forcing mine upon you, nor am I trying to.

We are increasingly living in a world where small companies that offer the consumer freedom are being destroyed by the legal tactics of the larger corporations.

Just as you said, our only other option is to go to another carrier who will do the same.

This its because not enough consumers stands up, or are educated in the matter of their rights as paying customers.

If we all voiced or concerns, then companies would exist with a TOS that's fare to the consumer.

Once again, it its not my right to force my opinion on you and I respect yours. I do, however, feel that I have the right to voice mine.
[General Questions and Answers] thebobp:
You implied you work with AT&T customer service. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means you spend a significant amount of time analyzing their contracts. Of course you'd know it front and back.

For the average user, though, do you realize the cost of completely reading every TOS you come across? They made fun of this notion's ridiculousness in "HumanCentiPAD", and indeed only a lawyer could find this state of affairs acceptable.

When you mod your phone, it's very apparent that everything you do is "buyer beware". There is no deception there. On the other hand, there is a lot of deception when salespeople are trying to sell you a contract; even the basic strategy of blindsiding you with subsidies is a great distraction to bring you to a buyer's high.

This is why, as I've been arguing from the beginning, the use of fine print is de facto misleading.
[General Questions and Answers] zelendel:
I used to work for many cell companies over the years, I even made people read the TOS before they signed the contract but that was due to my understanding of a binding contract from school and upbringing of you gave your word. And you stick by it. A man is only as good as his word.
[General Questions and Answers] thebobp:
Did you force them to trace every word aloud? That would've been an interesting (and, you can imagine, most unusual) sales pitch.

In general, do you honestly read every random TOS you come across? Your computer probably came with a Microsoft EULA and several TOS off the bat. Registering or simply using some websites would've come with a TOS. And, of course, many programs we download and install would've had TOS'.

And, of course, updates. As they pointed out in "HumanCentIPAD", Apple sends you a new TOS every three weeks. Not sure if it's fictional or not, but you get the basic premise.

Even if you do do all that (after all, a man's only as good as his word), can you honestly expect everyone else to do the same? The cost of reading all this alone is extraordinary, and not everyone had that same upbringing.
[General Questions and Answers] zelendel:
I made sure they knew just what they were getting into. If they didn't then it was my fault not theirs. And no my PC didn't come with a Microsoft anything. I don't by PC with preloaded software

Do I read every TOS? Yes I do. Wouldn't know about apple products as I never have or will use any product by them. I do check in on my software TOS every few months to make sure it hasn't updated.

Keeping ones word is a matter of self respect. But that really has no point here. If you sign it then you are legally held to it. Simple
[General Questions and Answers] thebobp:
You missed the more important question: can you honestly expect everyone else to do the same? The cost of just knowing what word you're trying to keep is extraordinary, and not everyone had your particular upbringing.

No one has disputed that (I would, but it's not relevant yet). What people are saying is that this practice is "deceptive", "extortionate", and "misleading". This is in contrast to your earlier claim that it was "not misleading at all".
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
No one is arguing the terms of the contract, you are absolutely right. We are simply arguing the corporate culture, and politics creating an unfair situation for the consumer.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
A million thanks
[General Questions and Answers] zelendel:
Then by all means Start your own. IF you are willing to help fix the problem then I would be fulling willing to back you. Dont get me wrong. I am not a fan of the way things are done. I hae just een around the block enough times to know that unless I can do something to change it then I have to accept it. I dont have the money or backing to start my own so I must use someone elses. Which means playing by their rules.

So if you start up an ISP please let me know. Ill be more then happy to join, but until then I accept those things that I can not change.

As for do I expect everyone to read the TOS before they agree to something? Yup. Because if they dont they cant blame anyone other then themselves.

I am done. This is beating a dead horse.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
I'll post some info about isps making a difference in this area for you. these are people you can support if you truly care.
[General Questions and Answers] thebobp:
You read the question slightly wrongly: I'm not asking if you think they're obligated to, but whether you think it's practical (kind of like whether it was practical for everyone to give up alcohol during prohibition).

In that example, even though, sure, it was against the law, the law was still a very, very bad idea.

I think this is kind of a naive reading of contract law, so I will explain after all why I don't find it to be (always) legally binding.

Let's say two people sign a contract for a small amount. One of them breaks it. Then it's easily possible that the other person could sue in a court of law and get recompense, but the cost of doing so would far exceed what he would get back. Effectively, the other person has gotten away with it.

In other words, contracts are only as binding as the parties are able and willing to enforce them.

Indeed, this is the essence of civil vs criminal liability. Criminal law is punished "just because" it is so bad. But civil law is punished only when the wronged party has the incentive to punish.

That is, even if tethering is "illegal" on paper (and I use "illegal" at a stretch, because when we say that we usually mean something criminal) does not mean it's "illegal" in practice. A law that is not enforced is effectively legalized. You know there are a bunch of outdated laws in the books, right?

[For that matter, there are more laws in the books than anyone can effectively read in our lifetime. The irony is that the government comes up with tens of thousands of pages of additional TOS every year, that no one can possibly be expected to read, not even you.]

In the case of tethering, the carriers aren't inclined to severe punishment. The worst that usually happens is that you're throttled and moved to a tiered plan. (And, in the past, t-mobile didn't even bother to enforce it.) Case closed.

My point: you can't possibly equate the legality of such a "crime" to, murdering someone, for instance. Some things are "more illegal" than others. Tethering ranks among the "least" illegal things.
[General Questions and Answers] Crashdamage:
I never said that at all. In fact, I said 'The problem is in the method of detection and enforcement.'

It's a problem. It's also a problem defining what's fair to both sides. Can YOU define it? For BOTH sides?

If you think business has anything to do with checks and balances or respect you're living on Sesame Street. And never read an Apple TOS.

What is it you don't understand? Of course TCP/IP is TCP/IP, regardless of the device used. But how it is transferred makes a HUGE difference.

Ask an AT&T engineer about backhaul capacity and see what he says...

Now you're talking land services, not wireless. Stay on track.

T-Mobile is not saying in the TOS you cannot use your data. You pay for it, they'll deliver it. They only try to limit what devices are connected to their network. I'm not necessarily in favor of that. But I also don't think they owe anyone unlimited tethering.

Which is why I said the problem is detection and enforcement.

It's not running on my Amaze, stock, unrooted ICS. I opted out and it's inactive.

Same here. I just disagree with you on some stuff. :)

Registered Linux user #266531. Android user since v1.0.
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
I haven't seen anyone arguing for free uncapped data beyond the threshold they already pay for. I've only seen people arguing that charging extra for data already paid for, 5GB for example, just because you're tethered, is BS. It's a money grab to add extra fees and keep utilization of bandwidth below what people already pay for. Like many companies, they sell services they couldn't possibly provide if every customer actually used what they purchased.

...................

The arguments some are making with the take it or leave it stuff are ignorant. The only way we make progress in many aspects of life is to voice our concerns when we have problems and try to amicably come to an understanding on how to solve them. I'm sure Tmo would rather hear complaints than lose customers. Don't pay any attention to those trying to quiet your concerns. They'll be the first to utilize the gains you make if the number of customer complaints rises to a level Tmobile can no longer ignore. They're like people criticizing unions on their coffee break.

Personally, I've received $1500 off a two line family plan and I have access to the fastest network in my area. I also have coverage decent enough to get through the brick in my home, something no other carrier can do in my area. I am happy with Tmo (though that can change after 5 minutes on the phone with them) That doesn't mean they are perfect or can't improve their services. Just like Tmobile, I'm always looking to lower operating costs ;)
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
A million you're welcomes

I appreciate your effort to keep the conversation going on these issues.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
That is the best compliment I have ever received on this forum.

If we do not voice our concerns about abuseive practices, then the abuse will progressively escalate, we loose our freedoms, then eventually our values, and as a result ourselves.
[General Questions and Answers] Crashdamage:
I don't have the time or patience to explain how almost everything I've said has been so obviously misinterpreted. But...

I stated more than once that I was NOT in favor of restrictions on what devices are connected and that I DO have a problem with methods of detection and enforcement. This applies to all carriers, not just T-Mobile.

So why the beef?

Registered Linux user #266531. Android user since v1.0.
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
I'm not sure if that was at me or not but I see where you're coming from and agree mostly except for the line I quoted. I think I disagreed with some aspect of your capacity or buildout analysis but I don't recall specifically right now.

It's hard to read the frame of mind of people on the internet so maybe it's just an issue of crossed wires.
[General Questions and Answers] lykos:
Has the issue of phone browsers been cleared up yet in this thread? I saw the one moderator report that the browsers should fix the problem, but when the OP pointed out the flaw in logic—something along the lines of ``Phone browsers are reported as full browsers because most are full browsers``—the issue was pushed to the sidelines.

If I'm using a browser on my phone—which advertised a full web page browser—I shouldn't be redirected to the t-mobile hotspot page. I'd also like to say that, besides the hotspot issue, I'm proud of both Sprint and T-mobile for continuing unlimited data; even if it is slow. We're in a world where our data needs are constantly expanding, where wifi still isn't available everywhere you go, and the big two are limiting our data streams instead of expanding them in acceptance of the oncoming changes.
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
I spoke to a higher tier of support at Tmo about this and you won't like the answer I got.

I called up because I wanted to know if redirecting Dolphin HD w/iPad UserAgent on my phone was part of a new process to restrict the content we can access on our phones since I wasn't tethering when this happened. The woman I spoke to said this problem was just an error, shouldn't happen and thought that resetting my network selection on my phone would resolve it.

Her solution didn't work (NS Sherlock). I told her that I could view the site fine with other alternate non-Android agents. She also was willing to try to support the stock SGS2 browser. Her position was that though they will make attempts to support third party Google Play Store apps, ultimately that isn't what they have to do. She also said that if the pages were redirected in the stock browser with an alternate agent string that also isn't what they supposedly offer customers. She says that Tmo only has to support the stock situation even though agent control is part of the stock app, and that they only have to provide pages viewable for the Android phone. Basically in her view they could even block the desktop versions of sites to Android customers without tethering plans. (Net Neutrality?)

She made sure to say that wasn't where they were going in the future and the redirect problem some people have on their phones is a networking error.

Not sure if higher level support at Tmo works the same as customer support in how talking to 20 reps will get you 25 different answers to the same question. I don't feel better after talking to TMo about this.
[General Questions and Answers] thirdfloornorth:
This is something that assuredly needs to be spoken about: Even if their method in this case does nothing to infringe upon an individuals privacy, it is a very short step away indeed. The only thing we can do is to let them know that we know, let them know we are monitoring them as well, and let them know we are not content with their decisions and will be less so if they decide to escalate.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
There is no beef. I respect your right to voice your opinion. Thank you for all that you have brought to our attention, because our conversations might have answered the questions of many others as well.

If you feel the way that you say you do, then we are inline with each other, and if your not on the same page as me, then that's ok too. I just feel very strongly about the issues of net neutrality.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
Customer care continues to insist that they don't support third party apps even though they support and advertise the Android App Store.

My argument is that my app works fine and T-Mobile is responsible for a standard TCP/IP interface that does not eavesdrop on us and discriminate and illegitimately spoof or browses.

T-Mobile customer care has no access to the engineers and programmers in any way. Instead they refer you to write their corporate office in New Mexico.

Seems like a total blow off response to me.
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
Yeah man you aren't likely to get anyone on the phone who understands user agent filtering and DNS let alone has the power to change anything via their support line.

I'd suggest taking 5 minutes and getting the CEO's contact info and calling his or her office about it. I'd also file a complaint with the FCC and shoot an email to the Harvard professor chairing the new FCC Net Neutrality commission and let them know Tmo is using some sketchy logic to avoid building out wireless networks purchased from our government for public communications. The Harvard guy is on the board of the EFF and is sympathetic to our views on these matters. Can't hurt.

Sent from Prometheus
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
Do you have contact info? We should formulate a standard letter and make it into a pdf, then we should post its so that everyone can download it.

Even thought someone may understand what's going on, they may not have the skills to articulate their concerns to the FCC . . .

A standard letter signed and mailed out many times, and by many people should be quite effective.
[General Questions and Answers] lykos:
You're right; I did not like the answer given. I've gotten the same response on my multiple tries to contact T-mobile support—even when I mentioned that the stock browser was being redirected—they refused to address my complaint and instead tried to transfer me to lower level support, who transfered me to their answering machine in New Mexico.

The bigger issue here is that people are reporting that the stock browser for ice cream is being redirected without changing the user-string to desktop mode. I'll be sending a complaint to the FCC and I guess—for the meantime—I'll purchase the tether plan. I hate to do it but where I am now; I need low priced unlimited data.
[General Questions and Answers] ladyb0y94:
I see people talking about being "ripped off" but you agreed to the TOS that states the data plan is to be used for the device ON the contract. So if anyone is being riped off it is the companies.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
That is just so asinine that the only reply you will get is this. you must either not be reading this thread or your agenda is to spread propaganda.

People are being denied their legitimate 3rd party browsers and accused of violating the TOS due to poorly thought out, and completely ineffective "snoopong and or detection methods."

I don't enjoy condescending to people not do I need to. The issues at hand are quite axiomatic and all properly educated in these matters can see for themselves.

Once again, I respect your right to voice your opinion, but you must respect mine as well.

My opinion is that:

1. You should read the entire thread before buzzing in with something that does not make sense.

2. I further believe that you have a poor understanding of net neutrality and the underlying issues.

3. Making bold statements and accusing the contributers of this thread of trying to break the TOS is extremely disrespectful.

Just read the subject matter of the thread.

T-Mobile is accusing innocent people of tethering and disabling their device functionality.

I don't think I have heard anyone trying to do anything other than get the service that they poyed for.

If I use something I payed for the seller is not ripped off.

Honestly, what an ignorant thing for you to state.

Having said that, thank you kindly for your great words if wisdom.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
I am honestly very suspicious of some of the T-Mobile propaganda advocates, especially with freshly created accounts! ! ! This thread does pop up in the top google results when searching.

T-mobile has locked and doctored a thread of mine on their support forum. Then mysteriously a bunch of people were able to post to a locked thread agreeing with T-mobile. How does an ordinary user post to a locked thread.

An administrator them labelled the thread answered or solved whatever it is they label it.

When I started a new thread on their site describing what the admin did, my account was frozen.

The whole thread was nothing but a simple question.
[General Questions and Answers] thebobp:
Non-stock browsers such as chrome should still work, so you shouldn't have to purchase tether (that would be letting yourself get ripped off, twice).

But please do send your complaints in; they're one of our only options for enacting change.

Edit: if that doesn't work, try some of the operas.

Edit 2: Tor (basically a proxy service) might be a possibility, but no promises, and I wouldn't recommend logging any passwords using that.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
Customer care has started that they have "known" issues with ICS Chrome and that nothing can be done. Perhaps they plan to implement a version with some strange User Agent String on their T-Mobile branded phones.

See if you can Change your User Agent String on ICS Chrome. There has to be a way. Then post it here to help others out.
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
I will put something together with info,a form letter,a petition and contact information this week. Please try to post a list of issues that I can include since I'm not aware of all the problems people are having.

Wow didn't know that was happening in ics. if you have a PC or some kind of computer at home or even 30 bucks for a router and already subscribe to broadband you can install openvpn on it and send all your traffic through it totally hidden from tmo. For less than the price of tethering (I think) you can sign up fora 3rd party vpn service. Personally,I wouldn't give them a red cent more. They are violating the contact by redirecting the stock browser. You can cancel the contract without a termination fee and try another carrier. I bet if you call cancellations and tell them that they give you free tethering. It would be stupid to losea customer over sucha small add on.

You have options. That sucks. Id call cancellations until they comped me tethering. Thats bull****.
[General Questions and Answers] thebobp:
It must work for me because I'm using an [unlocked] nexus. That's pretty terrible.

Since the default browser doesn't work, there's real cause to raise hell.

Do you know if Tor works?
[General Questions and Answers] GorillaPimp:
The data plan is used by the device on the contract while tethering. What I make the phone do with that data after it retrieves it is my business.

Or can Tmo charge me extra for downloading a pdf to my phone and then copying it from my phone to my PC? How is that any different than tethering?

What part of the network traffic on Tmobile's network while tethered is different than untethered usage? Nothing except average volume of data. People use more data on notebooks, PCs and tablets than on phones. This is done to add revenue and prevent people from using the data plans they pay for to the fullest.

Like I said, unless you're using additional Tmo hardware or software to tether they're providing no additional service to charge for using.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
******* u p d a t e s *******

Updates have been appended to the original post.
[General Questions and Answers] lykos:
Personally, I was going to start tethering when I got my new phone, so I might as well go ahead and sign up for the tethering plan. I was mostly concerned about the on-device browser because I'm getting a GSIII when I have the money. I know all about Opera and Tor. I use both on my laptop. I am also on the cheap--no contract--plan so there is nothing I can complain about.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
Makes sense. Does the no contract plan even provide tethering?
[General Questions and Answers] da-pharoah:
So upon comming to this thread I was referenced to a nice app that had no issues with wifi tethering and I thought i'd share... so enjoy..

The app is called

Foxfi and its free

...
[General Questions and Answers] lykos:
Yep, you can get tethering added to your no-contract plan for fifteen dollars according to my menu.
[General Questions and Answers] Lord Lucan:
FoxFi

Its a good application when you want to tether undetected for now until networks apply more filtering.

What I found out that with ICS roms in Android, there is no wayround, not to my knowledge, to spoof networks. Internet explorer will go straight to networks page warning you about tethering. But, with Gingerbreag CM7 there is no problem

I wonder if anyone is able to tether with ICS roms.

Also surprisingly, when I insert my sim in an old HTC Magic , I have no problems with tethering.

Any ideas why?

Do you think that newer roms must have spyware which kind of relays to network providers some signals or packets when tethering.
[General Questions and Answers] shnn2011:
What has privacy come to?

Who knows what else they are doing?
[General Questions and Answers] Jack.Swindle:
That link doesn't work. Do you need the plugin? You can change the userstring in chrome tools> Developer Tools > *click the gear in lower right hand corner* *select override user agent* *select other* then type what you want in box.

This would be the same, right?