yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>I don't see why more people aren't drawing the obvious analogy here: the first thing I thought was that Microsoft is just replicating Google's Nexus program. And I don't think Surface will kill Microsoft's OEMs any more than Nexus kills Android OEMs.

The circumstances aren't comparable. Google is doing the Nexus tab because no vendor wants to do a cheap 7" to compete with the KFire (which as a forked Android device can usurp Google control if it gets popular enough). Secondly, Google does need a ref tablet. Thirdly, Android tab market is pretty stagnant and needs a big seller to get ISVs to buy in and make apps.

Vendors can't ***** at Goog for making a device they themselves weren't willing to make. In fact, aside from Asus, every other vendor is treating their Android tablets like the ugly stepchild. No marketing, "value" tabs, and not even a mention at trade shows.

In contrast, all major vendors counted on Win8 as their breadwinner, and all had at least x86 products on the drawing board, if not already in the pipe. The MS Surface product upstaged virtually every Win8 product shown to date, in the important criteria of excitement and buzz. I do see the x86 model's 3-month delay as MS' way to placate vendors so they can still sell their existing wares this year.

OEMs won't bail from Windows, because where else could they go? But the relationship will be more contentious, unless handled properly by MS. Since MS has been doing this for a long while, I'm sure it can manage it. Ballmer himself is a sales dude, so he knows the drill.

I don't see vendors jumping ship from Android either, because cost of commitment is low, and there's always the chance Android could become big. In business, you don't burn your bridges.

>The dock is sturdier, easier to use in a lap, and adds battery life. All the same advantages apply.

The hybrid form has some advantages, one of which is being usable in your lap. Another is being able to store supplementary computing features, like HDD, extra ports, battery, etc. But the form is still basically a laptop for lugging around from place to place. It's not as mobile as a tablet + keyboard cover. More importantly, it's more expensive.

It's an easy bet: At some point next year, magnetic keyboard cover will be a standard accessory for Win8 tablets. I'm even willing to wager that Android tabs will get the treatment. They will be cheap, once the Chinese factories start cranking them out. Accessory vendors are likely already working overtime as we speak to get the low-down on the connector specs, so they crank out better/cheaper replacements. Notice the MS covers have no editing keys?

When keyboard covers are commonplace, what's the pitch line for selling a $150 dock? It's a tough sell.

>And of course everyone has stolen the ASUS concept to a ridiculous degree

Sorry, the hybrid form factor is not an "Asus concept."
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] shinzz:
Well, as impressive as MS Surface is ... I'm still waiting on other OEMs to show their product...

We have yet to see much or if any from Samsung, Sony, HP, Dell & even Lenovo for that matter yet... The touch cover/type cover idea could very well come from these OEMs as well at launch.

I'm still not sure about Windows 8 Pro. Do I really want to see i5 in 10.6 display? For a Ultrabook replacement & with the power of i5.... I prefer 13in.+.....

Both Windows RT and Windows 8 Pro are impressive "looking" device... but I doubt I'll purchase either. Don't see Windows 8 Pro as Ultrabook replacement (at least for me) & Clovertrail/Trinity tablets will offer competitive battery life + full Windows OS for roughly (but most likely slightly higher) price as Windows RT.....
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] Zephyrot:
Far, far away from reality imo. Unless they manage to squeeze a battery in there for some extra power. (really doubt it :P)

If only a keyboard was the key feature of the Transformer Series, they would be screwed, since there are A LOT of cool BT keyboards for tablets out there.

But how many of them actually charge your tablet, offer another SD slot and have USB? I think that is the key.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] wynand32:
Agreed. The Surface with its magnetic cover keyboard thing has three key disadvantages vs. the ASUS keyboard dock (and the many blatant knockoffs we've seen):

1. Can't be used in the lap. One of the best things about the Transformer has always been that you can slap it into the dock and pop it on your lap for some quick work. If I have to pull out a tray to set a tablet and keyboard on, I might as well pull out my notebook.

2. The hybrid docks (might as well not call them Transformers anymore, really) offer greatly extended battery life.

3. The hybrid docks offer additional expandability.

Really, I don't see Surface as such a big deal. Again, it's Microsoft's Nexus program, and will be used to push OEMs to make better products and offer up a "blank slate" look at the platform (no pun intended, but it's a good one).
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] shinzz:
1. Yup, I agree.

2. Is i5 really required in a tablet? What can i5 achieve that Clovertrail/Trinity can't achieve in productivity for a device that is built for mobility. Extended battery is def. superior over extra power in tablet form for productivity as well (unless the individual plans on using the device as his main). And this might be matter of taste... but in hybrid device .. device with i5 + keyboard is simply better at 13in.+ in my opinion as well....
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>Is i5 really required in a tablet?

It depends on what you think a tablet can do. Presently, we tend to think of tabs as for content consumption and possibly light productivity work, because that's all that tabs can do at the moment. But if you think of tablets as the next computing form factor, which include CPU-intensive functions, then yes, it's required. I think the Surface Pro will be proof of that, and it will be popular with business buyers.

A major compromise for tablets is that they don't have HDD storage. Expandability is a point Wynand32 made in his rationale for the dock. But instead of the dock, a better solution is simply external high-speed storage, ie using USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt HDDs. Vendors can also use some form of UWB (WiGig, Wireless HD) for more convenient wireless access. That allows storage to be modular, instead of being locked to a specific device. The key of course is high speed connectivity.

Instead of the tablet as a self-sufficient unit, think of it as the "control console" in an ecosystem of interconnected devices linked with high-speed I/O. The console itself needs to be mobile, but functions can be offloaded to less mobile accessories when needed, eg a large (stationary) display for heavy desktop work, or a large HDD for heavy storage. This modular concepts allows not only the highest functionality, but also the highest flexibility.

I'm hoping the Android platform will benefit from developments of the Surface as much as the Windows platform.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] wynand32:
Funny thing is, I'll get my employer to buy me a Microsoft Surface whereas I bought my own iPad and Android tablets. The reason is simple: I'll use it mainly for work, where my other tablets are only used for that particular job a small percentage of the time. I think Surface will be very successful in the enterprise, but how it does in the consumer space will be interesting to see.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] opentoe:
Ok, where is this bad boy? End of Q2 is here.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>I think Surface will be very successful in the enterprise, but how it does in the consumer space will be interesting to see.

I believe Ballmer when he said MS wants to "prime the pump," which doesn't equate to a scorched-earth policy with its partners. MS has had a fruitful relationship with HW vendors, and forsaking that relationship to be "like Apple" doesn't make for good business sense. (Remember what Jobs did to the PowerPC Mac cloners.) Ballmer may be a bad tech visionary, but he's a capable businessman.

I think the MS Surface line will be limited to the announced two models. Windows is a vast market with diverse needs, and partners will have lots of room to sell their own products. As with the Google Nexus, the point isn't to make a profit on the HW or to compete with HW vendors, but to provide a halo product and reference device for the platform.

There is much confusion and uncertainty with Win8, and the Surface effort does shed some light on MS' vision for its Windows future. I think it's a good move, and a needed one.

In reply to yours above, I don't think either models will be popular with consumers. The RT model will launch with little software, and the Pro model will be in the $1K range. I don't think MS' effort should be judged on sales volume of the particular Surface models, but on the overall sales of all the Win8 products as a whole. If HW vendors would copy the Surface design and extend its features across their line-up, I think that (sales boost) will happen, and Ballmer's "priming the pump" will be a success.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
Link below is Acer CEO Stan Shih's take on the MS Surface launch. I partially agree with his take. While I think the offerings will be limited (to the two models), I think MS will continue with the effort, with periodic refresh.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20120619PD224.html

While we're quoting DigiTimes, here's its latest rumor on Google Nexus Tab: $199, will be at I/O, and will be available starting July. Nothing new, but all the rumors are starting to coalesce into something resembling inevitability.

The surprise here is that Asus is rumored to come out with its own 7" at a lower price point of $159-179. Let's hope for both.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20120618PD220.html

BTW, I was checking out the two Surface keyboard covers to see how well each would fare for touch typists. Anandtech has a good pic of them below

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/CAM00012[1].jpg (hi-res image)

My first inclination was to opt for the "clicky" version, but on closer examination, the "felt" version looks to have enough tactile cues (note the home keys indents), that you may be able to touchtype with some practice. I'm still inclined toward the clicky, but I'll look at the felt KB first rather than dismiss it out of hand.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] demandarin:
why would Asus jointly make a 7in. with google, being the nexus tablet. then come out a month later with its own cheaper priced 7in. the difference in price is not that great. people or at least tech enthusiasts would be more inclined to get the nexus model. i know that's the one i will be getting. tegra3 7in. for only $199, cant beat it. Then developement on it will likely be very popular. Asus solo one will be popular also but nexus model will likely be completely unlocked when released. Full access for developers to work their magic.

on the win8 keyboard overs, i like the felt looking one. I'm sure its lighter than the plastic key one. I actually like the surface. a very good reference point for OEM to base their win8 tablets off of.

I still wish Microsoft would've released that that Courier tablet. I guess it was way too ahead of its time. The demo vids on that is still one of the most impressive on tablets , that I've seen.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>the difference in price is not that great

$20-40 is a significant difference for a $200 product, especially for regular users who don't care about techie stuff like custom ROMs or unlocking.

It depends on HW difference. If Nexus comes with 1280x800, and (newly rumored) Asus 7" comes with 1024x600, then it would be more even. I'm just hoping to see as many cheap-but-good tabs as possible.

Looking at the KB covers, I think we'll see Chinese clones for the clicky variety pretty soon for existing tablets. It's easy to make, and will connect through BT. Power can be with a CR2032 cell.

I can also see improvements to the MS design. For example, having an attached "tongue" that can be flipped to the back of the tablet to act as a stand, similar to Apple's smart cover concept.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] flight777:
Remember the Nexus S and a month or two later the almost similar Galaxy S ? Which sold better ? :P
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] shinzz:
Oh wow.... NATIVE CODE support for WP8, Tablets, and Desktop.

I'm ready to ditch Android....

That news alone trumps any MS Surface tidbits from last night....

Speaking of Surface...

http://www.slashgear.com/microsoft-surface-price-puzzle-polarizes-pundits-20234865/

According to arch rumor-merchants DigiTimes, however, information from Surface manufacturer Pegatron suggests that the ARM model will cost from $599, while the Ivy Bridge based Surface Pro will cost at least $799.

That's going to be difficult for Windows RT ARM tablets in general to succeed in Windows 8 market (or tablet market in general) with Clovertrail & Trinity providing competitive performance + Full OS & even price.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>NATIVE CODE support for WP8, Tablets, and Desktop.

It was only a matter of time before MS tie-in all their platforms with a common code base. WP7 was a transitional rev. It would be more exciting if WinPhones had anything more than its 5% market share. We'll see if MS can parlay its upcoming "unified app store" jingo into more share. Android hasn't.

Speaking of transitional product, that's what Win8 is. Win8 = WP7.

>information from Surface manufacturer Pegatron suggests that the ARM model will cost from $599, while the Ivy Bridge based Surface Pro will cost at least $799.

Yep, all that "vapor-depositing" stuff can't be cheap. I think it will be indeed priced high, and be slated for the high-end only. Part of it is brand management. Microsoft is a worldwide brand, and you always want your brand to be associated with premium products.

Part of it is that, as said by Acer, I doubt MS wants to seriously get into the HW business--lousy margins. Its aim isn't to compete w/ iPad mano-a-mano, but to "prime the pump" so Win8 tablets as a whole will get people excited and be competitive.

It's funny to read pundits' plebeian analyses. Most are on the "be like Apple" and "gotta compete with iPad" kick. "$499 or it's dead!" :) People are so myopic.

>That's going to be difficult for Windows RT ARM tablets in general to succeed in Windows 8 market (or tablet market in general) with Clovertrail & Trinity providing competitive performance + Full OS & even price.

I doubt too many WinRT tabs will be made out of magnesium.

The obvious angle for WinRT tabs will be the value segment, at least for this year, as functionality is gated by lack of apps.

BTW, not too many design wins for Trinity (like, uh, one?) at Computex. I wouldn't be too optimistic.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] shinzz:
1. Yup, I'm just glad it is official though for a person like myself making a living off of Windows platform. Android hasn't (oh what a mess Android is) & Apple hasn't done it yet either.

This Windows Phone sneak peek is def. impressive... my only regret is the lack of 1080p support in display (when we all know this is where it is headed by the end of this year at least & display/resolution is by far the most important aspect in smartphone) & skepticism towards h/w overall in W8 phones (since not much is really known yet).

But as far as OS itself is concerned, I think MS has nailed it & improved it tremendously....

Google's I/O event is going to be interesting after this event by MS. Google really needs to showcase the strength of Android & Jellybean in general over W8 (Metro) & iOS 6.

2. True (I also have a soft spot for AMD in general), but there was like.. what... 1 ARM tablet at Computex as well (from Asus). According to Bloomberg report, you can expect at most 5 ARM tablet this year..... With many OEMs also refreshing their Ultrabooks with Trinity lately... I am slightly more optimistic towards Trinity over ARM in general.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] wynand32:
I returned an otherwise excellent ASUS UX31E because of insufficient keyboard travel, and so I can't imagine using either of those keyboards. I know you think these things are cool, and they are--but sometimes cool and impractical go hand in hand.

I always thought the Apple magnetic cover was an idiotic idea because it leaves the rest of the tablet exposed. I think the same about this thing. It's a gimmick as far as I'm concerned. Give me a real keyboard and a slip case, and I'm happy.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] wynand32:
Hey, that's what makes the whole thing possible. It's easier to cut bait when you only have 5% of the market. Imagine if they had 80%...

And, I think Microsoft will only sell Surface in their stores and online. They won't compete in standard retail channels, thus creating a reference platform without really stepping that hard on their OEMs.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>I returned an otherwise excellent ASUS UX31E because of insufficient keyboard travel, and so I can't imagine using either of those keyboards.

KB choice is the most personal of preferences. I was weaned on IBM "clicky" keyboards, and would still use them if they exist today. I still keep around an old IBM Thinkpad X because of its (well-worn by now) keyboard.

Typists acclimatize to the KB's feel and layout they're using, and some are more tolerant than others. There's not many instances where I need to type for extreme speed, so I'm pretty tolerant to most. My red line excludes the flexible roll-up variety, as I need to have a rigid backing for speedtyping.

If you are particular about your KBs, I can see why you're vocal about keyboard docks.

>It's easier to cut bait when you only have 5% of the market. Imagine if they had 80%...

Yep, I was contrasting the WP event to Apple's WWDC earlier this month, which was a snoozer. Apple can't do anything like what MS just pulled with its existing WP userbase. Neither can Android for that matter.

It had to be done. MS needed to unify its platforms and pull WP out of the stone age. That's little consolation to the WP orphans, but there's really nobody to blame. It's a volatile time, and them's the breaks. Ya jus gotta know when to hold em, and when to fold em...

As said, Win8 is a transitional product, same as WP7. I think the x86 toys are pretty safe, but with the baked-in FW of the ARM toys, the possibility (of being orphaned) exists. Especially when WinRT's userbase will probably still be small--like the WP userbase.

Even if not, WinRT currently only supports last-year's gen of ARM SoCs for Teg3 and OMAP4 (Qualcomm S4 is current). In other words, WinRT tabs are already obsolete. When the next rev comes out presumably next year, the hardware will be two cycles behind, and upgrading to the latest OS will be problematic. So, basically, orphans.

The flip side is that the ARM platform will have more rapid advances than the x86 side. But I think the ramp-up will be painful to early adopters.

Gotta know when to hold em, and when to fold em...

[YOUTUBE]Tw5LaEzEcJw[/YOUTUBE]
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] shinzz:
Actually, it is just Tegra ARM SoC that will be behind. First WinRT device for TI will start on OMAP 5....

As for WinRT tablets in general, I believe MS is taking tablet/WinRT market in-line with x86/x64 counterpart. I do not believe in drastic & rapid changes that you envision. However, I do agree that Win 8 could very well be a transition product .... but even Windows ME & Vista.. major flop/transition products at least had 1.5+ yr of support & lifespan.

I personally see changes & revision in x86/x64 counterpart before WinRT.... they simply need to get Desktop mode & Metro kinks worked out for PC/Desktop/Ultrabooks.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] e.mote:
>Actually, it is just Tegra ARM SoC that will be behind. First WinRT device for TI will start on OMAP 5....

I find it telling that the MS Surface RT will use Nvidia (presumably Teg3) as will Asus, at the same time that Teg3 is going "value". I think Teg3 will be in most of the WinRT tabs this year for its low overall cost and decent performance, same reason why it'll be in the $200 Goog tab.

>As for WinRT tablets in general, I believe MS is taking tablet/WinRT market in-line with x86/x64 counterpart

They're getting different treatment, despite their commonality of running the same Metro apps. For one, RT pace of development is obviously further behind than x86, going by MS' unwillingness to demo it in public. If it is to make the same drop-dead as x86, RT release will be more "beta" than x86, and subjected to more substantive revisions.

Second, RT is different because it sits at a lower level--at the firmware--in a device than x86, and interacts more intimately with the disparate ARM HW. That means it's less amenable to change, especially when Office will be bundled in. More stuff = more regression testing needed.

I think these, plus the need to try out RT's new distribution model, are why MS is doing a limited launch with only 5 RT designs. RT's distribution method looks much like WP's, except without carriers as an additional layer, and its userbase will be intentionally small. If being orphaned can happen to WP in its second year, it certainly can happen to WinRT in its first birthday.

ME & Vista for all their faults were still Windows with a vast userbase. Windows is a cash cow, and you treat it with respect. WinRT doesn't yet have that status.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] wynand32:
I'm getting really close myself to tabling the whole tablet decision until 2013. I'm 75% ready to buy either the MacBook Pro Retina (to give myself both Windows and OS X to play with) or the ASUS UX31A, and to stick with my iPad for now. I'm not sure an Android tablet gives me much more than the iPad at this point (and I've been trying out quite a few of them), even if I can't stand iOS.

I say this, because I have a feeling the middle of 2013 is going to look very different than the middle of 2012 feels. I'm not expecting everything to shake out by then, but hopefully we'll have a clearer picture of where things are headed. I think buying an Android tablet at this point is a losing proposition, except maybe to pick up a Nexus for $200 to keep in touch with the platform.

For productivity, I think a standard notebook is still the better proposition, and as e.mote alludes to, right now may not be the right time to make any significant investments in anything else.

Crazy, crazy times...
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] shinzz:
It is up to 5 potential WinRT device this yr... Toshiba (according to Bloomberg) is committed to releasing WinRT based on TI OMAP 5. Other potential OEMs who could possibly release WinRT device this year is Samsung (most likely Exynos 5)... & perhaps one from HP, Dell, Sony, or Lenovo (but most have strong ties to Qualcomm & will use Snapdragon S4 Pro... except Dell, I can see Dell releasing a Tegra 3 device).