yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] rand4ll:
Your warranty is not with the seller like best buy or whoever else, it is with Asus. The seller only has to honor their return period. I managed a retail establishment where we sold computer parts. If a user came in with a six month old hp printer it would NOT be replaced by us but we would get them the information they needed to contact hp and get warranty service.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] rand4ll:
DCMA does not protect the locking of the bootloader but instead the encryption. Even if it's unlocked it can remain encrypted.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] rand4ll:
I think you misquoted there as I didn't say that. But I do have the two year Square Trade warranty but got it through amazon for less than 70 bucks.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
Why? HTC who probably sells ten times the number of Android devices Asus does figured out a way to indemnify themselves from customer inflicted damage without voiding every aspect of a devices warranty. Samsung doesn't lock their bootloaders at all so the "DCIM" argument seems a bit premature.

If you read some of the bolded sentences in my original Mangnuson-Moss post they echo verbatim what HTC's disclaiming. Coincidence? I guess if Asus feels threatened by legitimate questioning of their policy and decides to play hard ball they could pull the unlock tool. But that still doesn't answer the question as to why they felt the need to enact such a harsh policy when others with greater liability (volume) haven't. And if it does turn out Magnuson-Moss trumps their disclaimer they could end up pulling the tool anyway. You guys keep trumpeting how customer friendly they are but this isn’t a very friendly policy and doesn’t appear to be necessary based on the behavior of other manufacturers.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] pandaball:
Be thankful they even allow you to unlock your bootloader. Just look at Motorola/LG.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] slef2003:
Given the tone of language that the OP has used here do we really think that an Asus Engineer who has been actively helping sort out punters problems is going to respond?

Why would he when there are implied threats, and swearing before the request for a comment?

Put yourself in his shoes and ask yourself "would I go out of my way to help when somebody has just said that an action of my company is BS" even though as a company they have been responding to this request from purchasers. And would I post a definitive statement that somebody might use in a legal setting?

The reality of the warranty waiver is different wherever peeps live as most countries have their own legal systems.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of the OP I think that the tone and attitude negates all of the positive points they were trying to make and possibly alienated somebody who has already received a lot of flack on this board. If I was in his shoes I would have shrugged and thought why am I trying to help?

In my humble opinion if the whole post was reasoned without resorting to BS etc, it would have been more powerful!!
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] antizen:
Like I said sellers would like to make you think otherwise!

"The Sale of Goods Act makes reference to ‘the seller’, this is the shop, the retailer, or the individual you bought it from, and is who you made the contract with. It is not the manufacturer, and don’t let the shop tell you otherwise! If there is an obvious fault with the item at any time within the first 6 months and it has not been caused by wear and tear or misuse, your first port of call must be the shop you bought it from. They have the responsibility to put the matter right, and should not evade this responsibility by referring you to the manufacturer in the context of a guarantee or warranty. Even after this 6 month period, if the item breaks down prematurely , you should always go back to the shop or retailer in the first instance.

Your statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act take precedence over and above any warranty or guarantee you may have with either the retailer or manufacturer. It is misleading for a shop to tell you they can do nothing simply because their warranty or guarantee has run out, because you will still have your statutory rights. See our section on guarantees and extended warranties for more info."
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] slef2003:
As I mentioned in my post, different countries have different consumer legislation; whereas you are absolutely correct for us in the UK, it is not so in the States or the rest of the world! One of the good things of living this side of the pond :)
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] HungryEel:
Op, changing software on prime is not like changing a catback on a car. Its more like getting an ecu tune. I can see why asus will void warranty, because you will be able to flash rom with extensive over clock that could cause hardware damage.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] Lock-N-Load:
All in all, it is a classic corporate tactic by the man - Asus in this case - to be able to paint with a broad brush and lump you in "it was your fault category", whether they know it or not nor whether they care to know it or not, and deny you service.

This is why I feel no moral obligation to worry about them as they do not worry about us. If there is a way to unlock the bootloader and do it without their system knowing, I am on it that day and will not think twice nor shed a tear nor bat an eye. They sold me a product that was defective - wifi and GPS - so why should I worry about their wants and needs.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] GreginNH:
Amen to that brother
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] undercover:
I'm pretty sure that in EU modifying software does not void warranty. Futhermore, i think what Asus is doing is illegal in EU. If fault is in the hardware and not caused by modified software, they have to fix it under warranty. If they suspect that it is caused by software, Asus has to prove it, not consumer. So i stand by what Barry said there about HTC and that law.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] doddsie:
they can probably just put it back on the production line re flash it to what ever they would do with a new machine and if software fixes the bug you pay, if its nothing to do with software they pay.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] dannb:
The only way they will ever have to stand up to defend this is if someone started a class action lawsuit. If anyone wants to do any more than just talk with empty threats, get a lawyer on the phone.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] DanoUF:
About a month ago I posted about the Magnuson-Moss act wrt to this "unlocking voids your warranty discussion" I'm not a lawyer, but I work w/ 2 of them, one being a Patent/ Intellectual Property lawyer so I've had discussions about this stuff w/ them a number of times. There are 2 interrelated issues w/ this discussion.

1. The Magnuson-Moss act. This is a consumer protection/industry competition act that was put in place in 1975. It was not specific to the auto industry, but there was a fair amount of warranty abuse going on there, hence the reason most discussion of M-M revolves around cars. I've read the ASUS warranty, and it has all the right legalese discussing damage caused by 3rd party software is not warranteed. Please note the red. By M-M the onus of proof for the cause of damage is on the Manufacturer (ASUS) not the consumer. Additionally M-M restricts the manufacturer from modifying the warranty after the sale of the product.

This leads

2. EULAs. I'm assuming that the modifying statement that will be used by ASUS to void the warranty will be in the EULA for the unlocking tool. EULAs are a mixed bag when it comes to enforceability and legal standing in the US. If the ASUSs EULA says "use of this tool can void your warranty" that would be acceptable as it does not change the terms of the warranty, it's a reiteration. If it says "use of this tool will void the warranty" that is in contradiction w/ the original warranty and w/ M-M at which point you would have a strong argument for "unconscionability" of the EULA which would make it unforceable.

At the end of the day I would expect the "legalese" that ASUS will come up with will be very similar to the example posted earlier from HTC. This keeps them within the law, but gives the warning that if you go and use your newly unlocked bootloader to OC you tablet into oblivion your hosed.

I'm a little concerned that there are people on here w/ the attitude that they can just sign their consumer protections away regardless of the law (however for all of you who do have that attitude, I have some contracts I would like you to sign. I'll be over to harvest your organs post haste afterwards :D ) Part of the reason for consumer protection to be codified in law is to ensure abusive practices are kept in check. There's no reason for these laws if all a company had to do was get you to sign a contract waiving all of your legal rights (and from a historical perspective auto companies did try that tactic after M-M was signed and lost.)

Let the flame begin!
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
To answer all those who question the role of the "seller" vs. the "manufacturer" and say that it's up to the "purchaser" to prove certain terms of the warranty are valid (or invalid), this is part of the Act. Like some folks said earlier, the U.S. is very different than other countries.

"Under the terms of the Act, ambiguous statements in a warranty are construed against the drafter of the warranty."

With the warranty every Prime comes with covering h/w defects, it would be interesting to see the FTC's view on eliminating that coverage based on customer initiated s/w modifications; especially with Asus’ assistance.

Using an automotive example, why should BMW be able to get out of replacing a power window switch because you put a K&N air filter on your car? Clearly the two are unrelated. If the K&N filter sucked water in to the engine and it seized, that's a totally different story. Magnuson-Moss was enacted specifically to protect consumers from manufacturers indiscriminately denying warranty coverage and to put the burden on them to prove a failure was directly related to a modification made by the consumer. HTC's disclaimer supports both the spirit and intent of the Act which is why I'm guessing it was written that way.

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

Exactly.

I'm convinced Asus puts some type of chemical on the Prime that upon contact immedialtely eliminates any form of objectivity.

And the "we're lucky we have an unlocked bootloader at all" defense is terrifying. If they left it locked would you buy it?

Customers

are the reason Asus exists, not the other way around. Some of you sound like the Muammar Gaddafi supporters as his regime was crumbling. "But he takes good care of us." The hell with the torturing people who didn't agree with him and the other attrocities. "I feel good."
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] Lolento:
The reason you all want to unlock your bootloader is that you want to install anything on the tablet as you wish. You can experiment with it all you want...overclock, dual boot Linux, webos...whatever....

In return, Asus ask that you don't go back to them if you brick the device. There is nothing wrong with that.

Obviously, a lot of you think that the XDA community may be able to fix the wifi/bt/gps issues better than Asus can, and that's ultimately the reason many want to unlock the bootloader. However, from Asus' point of view, they wouldn't know what you're doing with the tablet from the point your bootloader is unlocked.

Does anyone think that if an xda member finds a silver bullet to solve all of the connectivity issues, Asus would not be able to implement the same as quickly as they released ICS?

Bottomline, they need to run a business so I understand that they would not agree to letting users freely brick the device and then provide exchanges.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
So if you unlock your Prime and the display cable becomes detached and they charge you $125 plus shipping to repair it, you're OK with that?
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] Lolento:
Yes, and I say this because you woudn't know if the display cable is detached unless you physically open the device which voids the warranty.

Honestly, the agreement for the bootloader unlock is already better than what is available from existing industry leaders like Apple and Motorola.

The bootloader is there for you to use but you have to agree not to complain about bricking. Can you say the same about Apple or Moto devices? LOL
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] DanoUF:
Again. If the customers mods have caused the issue. . .Warranty voided! I have no issue w/ that. But, by law (important point) the onus is on them to prove that the consumer caused the issue.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] Lolento:
What law are you talking about? The agreement is standard across every device I have own including many iphones.

If Asus has to perform failure analysis on every device that goes back and PROOF that the failure is NOT due to bootloader unlock, how do you expect them to run a business.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
Apple is a closed environment and not relevant to an Android conversation. Google now owns Motorola. Google's Nexus devices encourage development and still have warranties. And 20MM SGS2's were sold with unlocked bootloaders and Samsung (who no one mentions because it doesn't support their case) seems to have managed through any warranty issues quite well.

This was just put out by Motorola. I'm sure it will have a warranty. And now that the Google's closed the deal I fully expect them to become more open. And why are they doing it? Because they want to sell phones and

customers

demanded it. If you guys want to roll over and give up all your power to Asus far be it from anyone here to stop you.

New Motorola RAZR™ Developer Edition will feature unlocked bootloader in Europe

January 30, 2012 : BY Motorola

We have some news for the community of people interested in unlockable/relockable bootloaders. Today, we announced a step forward in Europe with the availability of an unlockable version of our most in-demand product: the Motorola RAZR™ Developer Edition. This solution allows us to continue meeting our carrier and regulatory obligations, but also meets the needs being expressed by our developer community.

In the coming months, we also plan to introduce an unlockable developer device in the United States through MOTODEV, Motorola’s global developer network. Stay tuned to Motorola’s Developer site for additional info.

EU-based consumers can pre-order the Motorola RAZR Developer Edition through the Motorola Shop. Post-purchase, the MOTODEV site will contain all support info for unlocking, relocking and locating build files, as well as access to additional developer resources. The Developer Edition will have all the same great features as the Motorola RAZR: an impossibly thin design, hyper-vibrant Super AMOLED Advanced display, KEVLAR(R) fiber and more.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] ryun33:
A written contract on paper is just to memorialize or formalize the contract..

There are three doors to choose:

1. Acceptance (you stay in honor)

2. Refusal (your in dishonor)

3. Conditional acceptance (stay in honor, and counter offer)

Number three(3) is what i would use, you can choose to accept their terms conditioned upon the fact(s).

I would create an affidavit

Example would be..

I conditionally accept the terms to the contract conditioned upon the facts that:

1. Asus did not conceal certain facts related to hardware failure; and

2. Asus did not publicly announce and conceal any hardware issues in regards to the Asus tf201 model

You put the burden of proof on them, with a counter offer!

Simple contract law!
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
A) Magnuson-Moss requires them (and everyone else) to whether they like it or not.

B) The TF101 had an unlocked bootloader and no one had to sign their warranty rights away in order to access it. And it wouldn't appear from their forum there was a rash of user-inflicted returns that Asus had to deal with.

C) Warranty repairs are factored in to the price the device is sold to resellers for. If Asus is concerned about warranty expenses they should get the randomly working wireless problems under control. That would save them a lot more money than stripping legal rights from their customers.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] demandarin:
actually this wont have a warranty. Already read a tech article on it. That was the only gripe surrounding this new developer edition phone. No warranty. Ill try to find the article I read on it.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] DanoUF:
Please read my post on top of page 8. The law is the Magnusen-Moss act

A paraphrase of the relevant portion of M-M

"The federal minimum standards for warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use. . ."

Since unreasonable use was not defined in the original warranty as "unlocking bootloader"

Also, ASUS can't retroactively change the warranty by Magnusen-Moss.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
The question that still remains to be answered is can Asus (or any manufacturer) invalidate the protections of Magnuson-Moss (a Federal Act) via a contract addendum. That's been tested and failed in the auto industry.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] rand4ll:
Try that here in a store in the United States and see the response. Warranty is with manufacturer, all the legal forms and policies are in place at every major retailers.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] Lolento:
That law covers the warrantor not the warrantee.....LMFAO

Honestly, if you think the law is on your side already, why even complain here. If you brick your device, take Asus to small claims.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
You're right. It'll be interesting to see how that's handled in the U.S. But since it's a unique model all of them will be treated equally which isn't the case with the Prime.

Motorola Announces RAZR XT910 Developer Edition with Unlocked Bootloader

by Brian Klug on 1/30/2012 11:36:00 PM

Posted in smartphones , Motorola , motorola droid RAZR , RAZR , bootloader

A while ago, Motorola announced plans to start unlocking bootloaders on devices "where operator and channel partners will allow it" sometime in 2011. While it's clear now (with that deadline behind us) that operators remain opposed to subsidizing sales of devices with unlockable bootloaders, Motorola is now moving forward with what would seem like an alternative means to a similar end, starting with creation of a Developer Edition XT910 device for Europe. The Developer Edition XT910 is similar to to the normal XT910, but includes an unlockable bootloader and is

sold with no warranty

- the device is currently available for preorder for €499.00. This is essentially the RAZR we've reviewed already but with GSM/WCDMA air interfaces and no LTE connectivity.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] demandarin:
see ;)

BAM! Here it is. Straight from the horses mouth. MOTOROLA MotoDev site plainly states that the new Raze Deverloper edition sold with unlocked bootloaders "WILL BE SOLD AS IS" NO WARRANTY. these companies not playing around. They'll give you the tools but if you break it they don't want to be the ones to pay for it.

http://developer.motorola.com/produ...ck&utm_source=motorolablog&utm_medium=mdotcom
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] DanoUF:
Actually, in the case of warranties and EULAs there are really only 2 doors (1&2). both are considered "contracts of adhesion" these are contracts that are offered (usually from a business to a consumer) that boil down to take it or leave it terms. No recourse is given to one party to adjust the terms of the contract in there favor. The problem w/ EULAs in particular are that often times these contracts aren't available until after the product they apply to has been purchased. How many stores allow you to return opened software? Again that is why EULAs are so susceptible to legal challenge on the grounds of "unconscionability"

Not so simple contract law!!

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------

They are selling it sans warranty. That is a different animal. If they let you know up front you will have no warranty then M-M does not apply. If they have a written warranty (which the Prime does) those terms apply. What we are currently discussing is ASUSs attempt to modify the warranty that is already in affect. by M-M that is not legal.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
All Asus needs to do to protect themselves is to mirror what Motorola's done and come up with a Prime developers edition. All of which would be sold without a warranty. The problem they've gotten themselves in to is they've taken a device which has a warranty and are trying to invalidate it after the fact. And based on precedent, that can't be done. Why wouldn't have HTC done the same thing if they thought they could get away with it (in the U.S.)?
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] demandarin:
All these good points being brought up by both sides seem very connected to the possible lawsuit Asus might be facing. It hasn't been formally filed or Asus really charged yet. Alot of these points seem very relevant to that case. In case no one noticed ;)
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
What does the bootloader and its impact on warranty have to do with Asus being sued over the Prime's wireless performance?
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] rand4ll:
I'm certainly not OK with that and therefore will not accept this agreement. So for the time being my bootloader will remain locked unfortunately. I do not agree with them voiding entire warranty for bootloader unlocker but I can understand their reasoning for doing so. It's unfortunate this is the situation for sure, and even a bit shocking considering part of their slogan is inspiring innovation. I am not very inspired to innovate on their device if doing so through custom software voids my entire warranty.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] demandarin:
I understand what you saying. But the fact is that once you downloaded the tool, read the disclaimer and Accept, you just agreed to warranty being modified on basis of you being able to use the tool. They not forcing anyone to accept the terms. You do it "willingly". So its really on the person that they accepted the changes in warranty and the risks and consequences involved. If someone doesn't understand or comprehend what the disclaimer is saying then simply don't use the tool. Just like verbal and handshake contracts can hold up to court, this is no different.
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] plun:
Well, well...everything seems to end with a "****storm" when it's about Prime....:(

New Androids ??:confused:
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] rand4ll:
I agree. The premise of my stance is that you voluntarily void your warranty foregoing your protections under MM by agreeing to their terms. However I am no law professional and cannot defend this stance through any case law or knowledge of law in general, just a common sense assertion.

I don't know the case the auto industry tried so cannot parallel what happened there here. Did the buyer agree to void a part or whole warranty prior to any modification that caused an issue?
[Asus  Eee Pad Transformer Prime] BarryH_GEG:
What he's saying is that Asus (or any other manufacturer) is prohibited from nullifying a warranty already in existence through a supplement or addendum. It's not a simple contract, it a Federal Law. One in place solely to protect customers from egregious and unilateral terms forced on them by manufacturers.

And this will never be a court case. If people report Asus to the FTC and they find that Asus violated M-M they'll force them to become compliant and hit them with a humungous penalty in the process.