yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] garwynn:
Well... still nothing from Sprint, which surprises me a little as they've already done the morning news dump. Then I saw that they officially announced the GS3 release date and pre-orders starting tomorrow. One of the big things they're touting is ICS - go figure.

Conjecture: I am skeptical they're going to announce ICS when it could affect $ale$ of GS3s (and new contracts!) - they're a business first and when it comes to a business most of them worry about profits first and customer satisfaction second. I still can't reconcile that with something TCR said last week(?) about holding source only until Wed... but perhaps that has changed too.

If Sprint is going to hold up the OTA all I can say is this: Samsung, please don't hold up the source if they're going to play games with this.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
Agreed. Sprint is a company. They are going to do what is best for their bottom line and for their investors first. You can't fault them for that. It's how they stay in business and compete.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] ArgyleDX:
I highly doubt this "5-6 potential finals" stuff. Anyone who has worked in software development and shipped a product knows that there's generally a linear path to one release build, you don't build 5-6 versions in parallel at the same time, all with different fixes, and say "ok, pick one."

Instead, you put together a build with as many fixes as possible, and you test it. Internally, and, if it requires external approval (for example, Sprint), the folks approving it will test it as well. If your internal testers find something you get your engineers working on a fix (and thus, if the build is rejected, you'll have a new build ready with the new fixes in it), but if you're on a deadline maybe you hope the external testers don't find it (if it's a low-repro bug, that is, it happens incredibly rarely). Once QA signs off on the build and says there are no bugs that would prevent you from shipping, then you're good to go.

FE22, while good, was never shipping quality IMHO. We've had two builds since then, so hopefully they've gotten the remaining bugs fixed.

Edit: Are the Sprint forums really blowing up because people think the OTA is ready? As long as we're seeing new RDFs, that means new builds (because they found bugs that need to be fixed) and that it's not ready for release...we should be happy if the RDFs are slowing down, that means the build is stabilizing and they aren't finding new stuff...
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] garwynn:
Here's my take on it: FE21/22 were probably essentially the same build with minor variations - and I'll bet those were cosmetic and not functional. (4G icon, for example). TCR mentioned there was a FE25/FE26 so probably the same situation - same build with minor cosmetic differences. There were rumored to be 2 more builds out there which may follow the same pattern, two identically functioning builds with cosmetic differences - of which one was chosen and probably made the OTA, at the moment presumed to be FF02.

This would make sense from a dev standpoint - have two identically functioning builds with cosmetic differences so that the carrier can choose. It's much like how you get a car and there are optional packages available; yet the core of the car is the same.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
The testing of the final 5-6 builds wasn't up to Sprint. According to TCR the testing of the final builds was internal. That would explain why they were leaked to us as well.

I appreciate your input because of your software background, so I wanted to pose this question. Since the emmc bug is a firmware problem, could it have been 5-6 different workarounds that they were testing simultaneously to see which handled it best?
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] ArgyleDX:
I think it's more likely that FE21 came out after Sprint requested that the icons changed (but before the work to change it could get done), and then FE22 came out relatively quickly because it was a simple asset change (if that is the only difference between the two).

My point is that there probably aren't "two builds out there" - there's pretty much always been one. He also said something about a "ground up rewrite" which is what you NEVER want to do right

before you release something, because anything you are rewriting from the "ground up" is by definition untested and probably full of bugs. Everyone one here can see that - FD26 was a relatively stable build (4.0.3) and the build after that was a trainwreck IMHO (since they moved to 4.0.4).

I'm just saying, personally, I wouldn't put too much stock into his source. I don't have any particular insight into Samsung and Sprint but it never made any sense to me at all.

Perhaps, but...

Why is the rdf hosted where it is hosted?

http://device.sprintpcs.com/Samsung/SPH-D710/FF02.rdf

To me that implies that Sprint has the build as well. I don't know for sure because I don't work there or know anyone there but my hunch would be the dated builds (FE22, FF02, etc.) are builds that Samsung has submitted to Sprint for testing.

It's possible that they decided to test a fix for the eMMC problem that way, but that's scary because if they did it that way, it implies they didn't really know how to fix it.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Big Boy Laroux:
Hi all - i've been lurking for some time, and appreciate all the info! (not so much the derailing, makes it impossible to follow :) )

I wanted to chime in on Sprint and Updates:

My wife has an LG Optimus S, and we went through the horror story of that update to gingerbread. Her issues weren't as bad as others, but we reverted back to Froyo anyway. But i read plenty about the issues others have had.

Sprint was raked across the coals for all those issues, and I am positive it has affected their testing policies now and in the future.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
I think people are misunderstanding TCR. At one point he said to keep in mind that ICS for our phones was a from the ground up re-write.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] winfan:
I was just checking when ota has released from when a build was created. In both cases, ek02 and el29, they were released almost a month after their build rdf would have hit. So maybe whatever the final build is, it won't be released until end of June? Just a hunch based on previous history on our phones record.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] ricocollege:
That's a nice thought but not realistic.

They are in the business of selling service and phones not testing them.

I would not be surprised if the OTA is on hold until after the "epic touch lte" launches.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
That's been the biggest issue with the emmc bug. Its a firmware bug. The only way they're going to "fix" it with the OS is with a workaround. And no, they don't really know how to fix it because, if I understand it correctly, they aren't entirely positive what all triggers the command that causes the lock up.

EDIT: As with most things, I could be inaccurate with my understanding, so please feel free to correct me.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] garwynn:
Please also keep in mind that you (and I for that matter) are only getting pieces of the puzzle. TCR has made it clear that not every little detail that was known was posted - if you're really curious you could probably send a PM and see if he's willing to pass on what was not posted.

And about the "ground-up" rewrite: I believe the meaning was that the ICS builds were indeed a rewrite because from the little I have read the merging of HC and GB to ICS, in addition to introducing the Linux 3 kernel, were a significant amount of changes to the kernel alone. Samsung probably then merged their GB code into ICS kernel, started debugging/testing until they got to a stable build.

FWIW I still believe the 4.0.4 push was due to fixes in the kernel that improved the overall build. It was in studying the changelog that we started digging more into the eMMC issues. Now that it's been narrowed down I'm still at a loss to explain the justification, but as a dev you can probably agree that in general you don't merge significant code changes into a test build unless there's a good reason to.

As with anything else in life, take any info with a grain of salt.

@TrayLunch,

Possible that there were multiple solutions - sfhub mentioned at least 3 places where they could have patched the build.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] ArgyleDX:
Workaround == fix, as far as I'm concerned.

Doeesn't Samsung make the eMMC chip? They should have access to their own firmware...the Android engineers should be able to talk to the firmware engineers and ask them how to work around the bug...

It should also be noted that literally nothing else TCR has posted about (for example, the GS3) has turned out to be true. I leave it to you guys to figure out how much you should trust his info as an exercise for the reader.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] garwynn:
I went through the same with my two Opt S's - thankfully there was a dev among others named sfhub who was out there on the front lines trying to make sure that they did what they could to improve the build. When I did contact Sprint with the concerns about the eMMC bug I specifically mentioned that I hoped they would avoid something of that magnitude or greater.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
True, but a workaround in the OS won't stop a built in app or a third party app from causing the problem, so it's not truly fixed. I'm not specifying this issue, just in general.

Don't mind me. I'm just trying to prove that I can participate in on topic discussions as well as off topic discussions, LOL
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Big Boy Laroux:
I agree business factors also come into play, but Sprint is indeed responsible for the end product of updates.

I wasn't saying the testing was was the only part of it, but I believe it absolutely factors in. LG didn't take the bulk of the heat for the Optimus issues - Sprint did.

Customer satisfaction is a part of business as well. Users cancelling service (even with paying a cancellation fee) results in lost revenue for Sprint. And they definitely lost customers over the Optimus issues.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] JohnCorleone:
I think Korey and I have been joking about this for a while but I am sticking with the day after the launch of the S3 so June 22nd

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Xparent ICS Tapatalk 2
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] :
Much more stable!!
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] locoboi187:
Damn jealous
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] KBizzle:
FB24??

10 Char
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] :
yes
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] locoboi187:
What changes you notice?
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] iSaint:
So jelly I have to wait until tomorrow to gets leak
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] kc_exactly:
Thanks for the update sextape. I will take stability any day.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Whosdaman:
Sextape, you going to leak it to us?
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] globalninja:
vaya! lol

Sent from my Epic™ 4G Touch
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Overstew:
yes is too broad. :(
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] hayabusa1300cc:
Wait... No bullsh** sextape you really have it?? Wow this epic ics movement is incredible..

.: sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch :.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] VeNuMuS:
Sextape has all the leaks. He even probably already has the next test build after this new one. Maybe even a final build.:eek:

Sent from my SAMSUNG IMPALER 4G
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] naripsta:
sextape has the sextape of the FB24 build. :o
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] hayabusa1300cc:
Nice...

.: sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch :.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] lafester:
another late night flash fest?
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] kc_exactly:
I doubt it. Maybe tomorrow.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] lafester:
tomorrow is in 24min lol
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] lafester:
Is that from one of your sextapes?

edit - you changed the pic!
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] hayabusa1300cc:
Haha that I did sir!

.: sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch :.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] garwynn:
Only for an end user does a workaround == fix. I don't know many devs that would be happy with that solution unless it was out of their control or the "true" fix would require an inordinate amount of support to resolve (meaning it would be far too much work to truly fix it when the workaround will do the job.) In my shop we call that the "quick and dirty solution."

Without knowing how they "fixed" the bug it's hard to comment on this beyond the mention that it was apparently addressed. And yes, Samsung makes the eMMC and has a real fix - an eMMC controller patch from 0x19 to 0x25. Problem is it is proprietary and has not been released to the public. At last reply Mr. Sumrall (Android kernel developer) was asking if this could be released but also noted that the patch procedure could easily brick the phones if done improperly. These could all be factors but without something more concrete we're continuing the speculation.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
That would not surprise me one bit. Good call.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] ArgyleDX:
If I understand what the bug is, if it's worked around in the OS, it will fix the problem 99.99% of the time.

The remaining 0.01% would be apps that use root access to talk to and format the internal memory directly. Maybe something like CWM has that level of access running as recovery, I don't know how it interfaces with the rest of the system.

Pretty much everyone else would try to issue a format command and the OS will handle it and use the workaround.

Another thing to note is my understanding is that the firmware bug was KNOWN, from the conversations people have had with Google engineers working on the Nexus, as it bit them in development. So it's even more likely that people working on a fix for our phone would know about what happened over there and what triggers the bug and how to work around it based on their experiences.

Sometimes you need to make a pragmatic decision about how to fix it.

Updating the firmware might be the "right" way but what if there's no good way for the end user to install it, or if it significantly increases the likelihood of bricking the phone? Those have real dollar costs associated with them (cost of returns/replacement, customer dissatisfaction, etc.) that have to be weighed.

The workaround might be "quick and dirty" but it might be also be "good enough". If the end user can't tell the difference, I would think it's "fixed"...
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] garwynn:
Sadly I'm starting to think that may be the case. Unfortunately most of the insider info was coming from other than Sprint so without some details from within Sprint we might be in the dark until they do something officially.

And to the one, maybe two that I have heard may have info from Sprint - any updates would be greatly appreciated. I'd be happy to take it by PM if preferred.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] JohnCorleone:
If you think about it, its a great sales tactic to get phone nuts like us to jump.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Xparent ICS Tapatalk 2
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
No, it really is. I hadn't thought of it. I wouldn't go to a phone strictly for ICS, but I know plenty that would. I may go to the GS3 one day, but only after I'm convinced its not an attempt by Samsung to take over the world, LOL! :p
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Esoteric68:
I think people are throwing in the source towel a little prematurely. Yes you might be right on track and Sprint might hold it back until after the 21st, but we still have a whole week in front of us in which anything is possible.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
No, I'm not throwing in any towels just yet. Things will happen when they happen. There's nothing I can do to influence Sprint or Samsung, but we can try to deduce and be prepared. I'm on EL29 (im)patiently waiting. When the devs on this site work their magic and have things ready, I'll be right on top of it and be grateful to them for it.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] wraith404:
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, s-voice required like 80MB of our system partition which had 12MB free in FE22. That would be a major alteration. Sure, they could ditch pre-loading most of the gapps and free the needed space, but I don't see that happening. I have no idea if they can increase the 500MB max size of system/bin.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Esoteric68:
You are a very patient man if you are still riding GB with all the awesome ICS ROMs out there :) but I know what you mean about being ready to jump on it once source hits.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
First, I want to thank all involved in the conversation. It has been informative and stimulating. It's what this site is all about.

Second, with all of that being said, and please forgive me, this may have been covered elsewhere and please feel free to just point me to the appropriate thread, if the eMMC bug has been an issue for all along and is not ICS specific, why does CWM work with specific kernels and is no longer being built in?

Again, feel free to just point me in the right direction. I come here to be educated and gain understanding, and I appreciate everyone's input.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] EggosEvo:
So let me get this straight. Speculation on OTA is sometime between Wednesday and Friday, sometime next week, and sometime within the week after June 21?

And I remember reading something but I don't remember where I read it, but it said that the E4GT devices purchased March and after would get the push notification for it first, then others. And all would be able to manually search for the update. Can anyone clarify?
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
I've jumped back and forth. I have every one click data and no data ICS release sfhub put out since FD16 on my computer still. I've tested and go back to GB for 2 reasons: I want to try the stock OTA if I get a chance. I may not need root, and I tether my tablet a lot and get much better results with the modded Sprint hotspot app than I do the Android wifi tether app.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] &roid:
You want an awesome explanation, check out this post by sfhub on this thread: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=26892735

Its the 6th post down..
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
Speculation is just that, speculation. We're all just giving our best guess, and any one of us could be right, or we could all be dead wrong.

You show me where the option to manually search for an update is, and I'll be doing it all day, LOL!
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] ReggieTee:
Meh ill be pre ordering the SIII and putting this phone up on eBay and Craigslist a week before the GSIII launch.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
That, kind sir, was exactly what I was looking for and very informative. Thank you. Still confuses me as to why up to FD02 had a CWM unless they were somehow built on a GB based version, people were just taking their chances or they were rewritten?
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] reddragon72:
Yep, and just like the guy I was talking to on the test team he was switched over as they said testing was complete. But they are still creating new builds obviously, so nothing is wrote in stone. It'll get here when it gets here.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] fatboypup:
At this point who cares ill have my GS3 in less than three weeks weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :p;):D
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] &roid:
Perhaps then (FD02) there was less awareness. Sfhub articulates very well in the recent post and answers a lot about the glitch as well as possible ways to stay safe, and even goes on to help ROM developers with a way to make their flash scripts safe for ICS by removal of the format command. It really is a good read for all on this board.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
Are they? Or could they be selectively releasing them to Sprint as Sprint kicks releases back? I'm more wondering if that is a possibility, not denying your accuracy.

I've never worked in or near the software business, and I'm pretty new to all of this and Android, so I'm trying to pick this up as quickly as possible. Please be patient with me.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] elliwigy:
Yea seriously.. this thread has been going for months with rdf's but only a few people probably know the facts.. and unless there is an OTA for officiall everything is speculation.. i for one check this thread but not for OTA info.. just to see the speculations.. we will get OTA which is immenent but will stick with the rom im on or if something better comes out.. just stop worrying about it and soon it will come.. all the hype when it does get released i bet ppl wont really even care.. i think ppl should just stop.. the whole point of the thread is to discuss latest build or rdf which we dont even have ff02 yet.. be patient and stop assuming and being dissappointed.. nobody really knows anything for sure, its like asking a stranger and having them tell you a lie
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] elliwigy:
Havent seen you post.. what are your sources? If there still making builds then i doubt they have final OTA.. agreed however will get here when it gets here.. doubt it will be today since i feel it would have been released already and all over the internet by now
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] RustedRoot:
And just why would you tell us that? (Watch out. Jay's gonna get you -- it's off-topic.)
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] BluesRulez:
I think people on EL29 are more eagerly waiting then someone who is on one of the ICS builds(not counting people eagerly waiting for source:p)
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
Agreed, but if I recall correctly, all the way up to FE22, when sfhub posted his Odin OCs, he always posted that if you wanted CWM, to install FD02+CWM-Rogue with Auto Root Package. What makes that one safe? Why hasn't a CWM been built for anything past that? I can guess that because they were coming out so many, so quickly that they didn't want to bother with it. That is justifiable.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] wraith404:
Installing CWM using his auto-root pushes the zimage to recovery without formatting anything, so installing it is safe. Using that CWM to wipe/format is still dangerous. The point of installing it is to be able to then install custom zip files from recovery (such as a theme), as the stock recovery will not install zip updates that are not signed.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] Phonegasm:
Its not recommended to use any ICS recovery at this moment in time. There is a know EMMC issue where doing a factory reset *may* cause the EMMC to lockup. More details in another thread. But that issue claims to be resolved in the new unleaked builds. To be safe, do not flash anything with ICS CWM. The safest way is to flash EL26 CWM. Search and you shall find.
[Samsung Epic 4G Touch] TrayLunch:
You haven't seen reddragon post? Where have you been?