yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] running_penguin:
These threads always come off as so annoying. I feel like the OP should be in another developers thread writing a wall of text about never ever asking for an ETA to someone who asked a simple question completely unrelated. Toolkits are here to make things easier on people, yes. Why waste time with extra steps when there is a one click process? For the people who don't want to that is fine, root using ADB until your heart explodes, but dont criticize other peoples methods. Everyone has the right to choose how they want to mod their phone.

And I think that it is kind of silly to link to a 4 year old post of a moderators opinion. People have different views as to why XDA is here and why people develop in general. What I have always thought is that it is here to make it easier for people to upgrade their phone to a more stable and vanilla version of the Android OS. The bigger and bigger it gets though, it is more like it is a place for arrogant people to post threads about how good their skills are at loading up a program and typing a few simple lines..
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
Thanks for you opinion.

I do think you missed the point however.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ctyonthehil:
I definitely understand what the OP is expressing. At the same time, I can easily see both sides of the equation (with respect to toolkits vs. manual root). I love learning to do things the hard way to fully understand why the easy methods work. But after I know why things work a certain way, why not take the short cut the second time around so long as I am capable of saving myself if I fall into the deep end?

I'm a computer engineer by trade (as I'm sure many of you on here are) so finding simple solutions to challenges is a way for us to sharpen our skills. Toolkits are essentially a lot of people's way of doing that. How individual users utilize that is out of the devs hands. At the end of the day, the user is responsible for their own actions.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] L-ViZ:
haha :D it´s true, but for me the "on-click" methods have never been working. rooted all my phones, know about it a bit, always made my own tutorial out of these on xda. took more time but always worked :) the longest tine i needed for a phone was 8h :D had to make goldcard(htc), but a helper tool gave me the wrong number :(
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
Probably to some yes. But not any more so that the 5-10/day "I used a toolkit and I can't do xxxx" threads.

Because in a lot of cases, that one-click process doesn't doesn't work properly. If you would like to me to list actual posts, I'd be happy to do it for you.

I agree. But you would think that if one had no interest in learning/development, that they would visit a user-oriented site, not a developer-oriented site, no?

I don't think that I read anyone posting about how good his skills are. At least I never saw that anywhere. I, for one, am NOT a developer, and I have very little knowledge in that regard. (Heck, I don't even have an IT or IT related background at all.) The only things that I know is what everyone can easily know by reading up on fastboot, adb, stock images and OTA updates. Nothing complicated at all.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] chadouming:
I might be late to answer this, but gratz. This is also what i think is happening. In fact, it's a bit worse. Not only people come here and dont want to learn and help the community, but they come here and say : "Hey dude, give some swag to my phone right now. I don't care about your live or anything." and this is completly stupid. Here is 2 good post about what is XDA and what you should respect by coming here :

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=16682226&postcount=2441 -> Zelendel

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45 -> Kyphur
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] magicriggs:
With the rising popularity of Android you get the backlash of the rising general public that wants to mod their phones. And last time I checked the general public are idiots. With that said, back in the early years. Before CM was a house hold name everything was done manual and no toolkits, if you bricked your phone then your going to do a lot of reading. Which in turned help educate the person and better understand the process. And eventually in the end, phone booting back up.

Now, toolkits are present for nearly every device and that's great for me cause I can hit a button and go back to playing MW3. And 99 percent of the time it works. Its that 1 percent that will screw you over. And then theirs choice we choose as a community to spoon feed the new comers. If you really want them to learn the process of rooting, then don't give them the answer.

Its like that old saying goes. "You can feed a man a fish and eats for the day, teach a man to fish and eats a lifetime."

I'm not saying to completely ignore the help me threads. But in turn just point them to the right direction. And if they want to bad enough, fix their phone, then they will devote the time and energy that is needed when hacking a 600 dollar phone. Just my .02 cents.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] HighTech216:
OP, fellow OG of the Android world... Be sure that your fellow devs/tinkerers and myself share in your pain. The forums have lost a lot of community with all of these point and click tools. Modifying your android is not difficult enough to require such short cuts. Also, taking shortcuts teaches us nothing as we do not execute the commands and therefore never understand what is happening behind the magic curtain. XDA needs an underground domain! haha
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jamiemagee:
I agree in part however I think the fact that android is becoming more popular just means the likelihood of people getting it wrong is increased. Adb is great especially with guides etc however the one click tools are brilliant. I used Adb for my gnex but thought hey I'll try a one click with my nexus 7 and use adb if it goes wrong. No harm as long as people are willing to give it a go.

As far as people wanting free stuff. Yeah that does annoy me. The devs with hard and deserve credit. So pay for the odd premium membership, buy the odd pro version especially when some are only 62p/ $0.99
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] chadouming:
Buying the XDA app wont bring anything to dev.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
he's talking about alot of the pro apps on the play store, not just the xda one.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] chadouming:
yeah sorry, didnt saw the "Some" keyword xD
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] zelendel:
Well see that is kind of the point. It is not his opinion but fact. XDA is a developers site. It is all about helping people learn and understand exactly what they are doing. By not knowing what you are doing you run the risk of soft bricking and then making threads on how to fix it. While I am not a fan of simple one click methods as there is no learning in it, I do see it as a great way for more advanced users to cut some time out. Why the advanced users you ask. Well if something goes wrong they would know how to fix it.

On that note I am all about helping people learn so now that I will soon be joining in this area I hope to help new people learn and not rely on one click methods that do things they don't understand. If people are not learning something as they make changes then they are just wasting their time and that of the devs

sent from the Batcave
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Stardate Tab 10.1:
Its not that I wasn't ready, I was just nervous when I rooted my first device. I did the reading, lots and lots of reading. But I was still nervous. Since my son has come along I don't have a lot of times where I get to spend $500 on something for me. I did not want to f anything up. The toolkit helped me get over that indecision that I had. After that initial "not really sure I should do this" root by the toolkit I have not needed it.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] sheffield.dave:
absolutely agree

i remember when I bought my first droid, I was afraid of doing everything... it was a RBM2(huawei u8230)...

I am still a newbie compared to others, so started to read and try and kept reading and kept trying a lot of things, I've learned a lot about adb, fastboot... how things built up etc.

first thing I've learned : always create a backup! then you can continue with whatever you want...

after another bunch of reading and trying I was able to customize roms for my own needs - never forget the joy when I've first successfully built a kernel from source :) - and now I enjoy how easy to use adb, fastboot on my Galaxy Nexus and the strangest thing happened:

I was unable to use any of the toolkits(btw respect to the devs :good: ) :D, I've found more easier to flash via fastboot, move files with adb - which I understand and know how it works - but this is my way of things...

so I think all the sleepless nights and hours were useful and all the 'bricks' and 'mistakes' I've made helped me to understand android, what became my hobby since my first entering to fastboot :D
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
Here is the problem...

there are no windows/mac/linux tutorials on how to root, flash, adb,install drivers, etc., etc

There used to be...almost every specific forum had them a couple years ago... nexus one, nexus s. and so on

the two top stickys in gnex development are toolkits, the people (new) to android and are coming here have no idea there is another way.

Are these noobs going to go to the N1 forums and learn adb? no, they see "root" in the sticky and go to work

Until a alternate difinative guide is written (and stickied) , we are as much to blame as the toolkits
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
in QA - http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1529058 - wow that was hard to find one.

top of general - http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1626895
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] harveydent:
Errrr... look at the first page of this forum...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Cilraaz:
What's wrong with this guide in the Q&A section? No Mac/linux instructions? Well, frankly, if you can't figure out opening a termainal, navigating to your fastboot directory, and adding "./" to the front of commands (all basic OS operations), should you really be modifying your phone?

Edit: And that guide even links to another guide for those who need their hand held in using their UNIX-variant OS of choice.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
check my rep, if I didn't find it...how the f$%K is a noob going to find it??? and why is it in Q&A?

If I was noob going to root my phone I would look in development (where the toolkits are) or at least general (it should be in General). I don't want to ask how to root, I want to read how to root. Thats why even I didn't LOOK IN Q&A

that second post is irrelevant. why would a person look in a thread called " [HOW-TO] [GSM & CDMA] Convert to latest yakju/takju/mysid (incl JB) / Return to stock" if they wanted to root?
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
that's a good guide. its in the wrong section
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jesusice:
www.google.com? I found it quite easily.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
good for you:highfive:

I feel that if a noob comes to this forum, they are not going to "search the forum" they are going to look in development or general for a guide. Or possibly they will search google for toolkit, because that is what they have heard
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] harveydent:
There's this thread:

[REF] GALAXY NEXUS STICKIES | USEFUL INFO | POSTING RULES which has the "how-to's"

[HOW-TO] Root Galaxy Nexus without Unlocking Bootloader (via exploit)

[HOWTO] Root Your Stock Galaxy Nexus

[HOWTO] Backup your EFS partition

[HOW TO] Restore Galaxy Nexus to Stock V2

And efrant's

[HOW-TO] [GSM & CDMA] Convert to latest yakju/takju/mysid (incl JB) / Return to stock stickied on this forum. That first sticky should be required reading before anyone posts

There isn't a how-to thread in the development forum because strictly, a tutorial isn't "development"
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
maybe you were too lazy to read or search? most people seem to find the threads no problem.

people are just lazy and then scream when something screws their phone up.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
I agree, but they are not reading it.

And those threads have very useful information, but your average user is not reading all the threads....not even searching. they are skimming the forum section that the topic should be in (or where they think it should be)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
No, I shouldn't hit the search button, and I usually do (most people don't)

But I did look in the section that it should be stickied in and it wasn't there
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Cilraaz:
Well, if they can't figure it out, then they have to post a question, which would go in the Q&A section. Logic would follow that you would check Q&A stickies before posting in the Q&A section, and would then find the answer.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
wouldn't it be great if everyone knew forum protocols
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jesusice:
So these "noobs" don't know forum protocol but they know to look in the development section? If I was a noob I wouldn't know what the hell development was and I'd go to Q&A. Only makes sense - got a question? Great, there's a question and answer section. It's all really pointless tho because if the noob isn't going to read then it doesn't matter where it's located. And that's the problem anyways, it's not about noobs vs non-noobs it's about readers vs non-readers. Lazy vs not-lazy. DIYers vs can't-someone-else-do-it-for-me'ers. Which is also why this thread is merely a place to rant. Those that it is intended to reach are the types that won't read it anyways. As Andre 3k said, "Speeches only reach those who already know about it."
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Cilraaz:
If they can't figure out "check the sticky" and "post questions in the Q&A section", I'm right back to asking whether they should be modifying their phones.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
If they aren't reading, it is still their fault.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Using your logic, it would be our fault for not teaching them how to swallow as well.

Wait...that sounded wrong.

Kind of like RTFM.

Here is a guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmvCpR45LKA
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
It also doesn't help that one of this forums moderators is the author of the stickied toolkit.

Stickying the fastboot way would be a conflict of interest.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
to be able to post in the development section I think you need like 10 posts or something like that.

The reason xda had to do that, is because noobs were constantly asking questions there. I have also come across many threads (in general) that the op starts out saying "I would ask this in development but I don't have (10) posts yet"

so people are not going to q&a...

I actually asked a mod about the "[VZW/SPRINT/GSM][Guide] Ultimate Galaxy Nexus Guide (Unlock/Root/Flash Roms/FAQ)" thread being in q&a, as I feel it should be in general... this is the response I got

but this is not consistent across all devices... for example in the i9300 forum, guides and ref are in general
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] maliceomalice:
Experienced is the best teacher in my opinion. I started from xperia x8, where even rooting have to be done manually by copy and paste some files into the system,changing permission,etc. I am very thankful that i started with a low budget phone at first coz thats where the basic things come. However, i pity those who cant even spend some time to read and understand fully some guide the devs made. I just bought the gnex and it took me about a day of reading until i discovered that:

1.there is stock google image

2.kernel can be flashed through CWM(great discovery)

3.you only need to press power+vol up and down to enter the development section in ur phone

I think the toolkit is a great tool for people with experienced and already read through stuff that they want to do. However,it posses threats for noobs that just want everything to be done in 2 minutes.

I think the creator of toolkit should prepare a simple question to ask before users began downloading, to differentiate whether they know some basic stuff or just foolish idiots... :)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
this has to do because every noob under the sun thinks "i have a question about a rom, i got it from this section so i need to make a post about it there"
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
Let's stop bashing n00bz and get back to talking about how to get said n00bs to learn something.

I don't want this thread to turn into a noob bashing flame war. Thx :)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] zelendel:
Agreed. Lets stop placing blame and try to figure out a solution to the problem. I will not allow it to turn into a bash fest/flame war.

We were all knew at one time or another. Remember your first Android? Did you know everything? I know I didnt and I had been themeing and making custom roms for years. Yet I was lost just like everyone else was.

Now to address the issue at hand. Maybe a good Tut on android for a noobs POV might be a good idea. Kinda like a general overview attached as a text doc so it can be downloaded and either read when not on the site or printed out. Covering things like what is root, what are roms, and things like this.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jugg1es:
I'm new to android and the whole root issue, I'm currently using tapatalk which is how I found this forum, I never noticed if there was a "new to android? Start here section. Maybe this should be a way forward. I started looking in the section for desire s. Logic really start with what you've got,but maybe that's not the way to look at it.

Swyped from my desire s running blindIce
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] zelendel:
While looking at your device forum is a great place to start new people maybe overwhelmed with alot of the mumbo jumbo that they read. Ill see what I can put together with my limited time
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jugg1es:
I was extremely overwhelmed by what I'd read, I must of read for about two weeks before plucking up the courage

To root, a lot of the time I felt my head was going to explode and my eyes would bleed. At the time of rooting I'd got to the stage where nothing made sense anymore which was why I decided to do it, figured it would come together as I did it. Unlock by htc dev was a learning curve, everything else kind of made sense after that

Swyped from my desire s running blindIce
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] harveydent:
I think he is a mod who just develops for the GNex, and not a mod for the GNex forum
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
You are right. I just remember him being around here a lot when the GNex first launched. I assumed he was a Mod here.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] npalmy:
I got my tablet last fall and wanted to root it. Looked at one click methods but after reading and reading decided to do it the manual way. I wanted to know how to fix something and understand how to do that. I was not going to be one of those who post all panicked with a issue when the fix is a page back in the thread (my rant)! Now I have the gnex and never thought about a toolkit or one click method to root.

I have learned so much from the forums here and I am still reading reading and more reading and learning.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
I've started to put something together here. It is far from being complete, but it's a start.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jugg1es:
Nice thread, maybe or should be in the general section of the main forum though rather than in the nexus forum, at least that's where I think it is as I'm on tapatalk and very tired, it's good and should become a good reference point for a lot of people new to android,I know I've bookmarked it.

Swyped from my desire s running Reaper V3 Rom
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
Prob best to leave it in the Galaxy Nexus General forum, as I've included a lot of GNex specific items in there. I suppose if users and the mods think it's a good idea, I guess I could clean out the GNex specific stuff, and create a separate thread for the main General section. I really haven't looked through that part of the forum in a long time so I don't know if there is anything similar in there...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] niamul:
Thank you El Daddy. This thread was required.

I'm a Spica user and hence an 0din man.

The whole one click toolkit was a disappointment
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] droidzika:
Thank you!

Sent from my Galaxy Sexus w/JB
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jstrom23:
Pretty much in agreement with the sentiment. The problem is 10 times worse with the Kindle Fire because of how unconventional Amazon made it.

There are some pretty good threads on the KF Dev forum that go into extensive detail regarding fastboot, adb, recovery, etc. It's been a great learning experience. :)

If you don't know how to use fastboot, you are pretty much guaranteed to get stuck in a boot loop with the KF.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] onsidekick:
I think everyone should learn some basics before rooting in general. Even though its pretty retard proof these days. I'm always surprised at people who don't make backups. That said 1 click kits just make life easier I went from nexus one to galaxy nexus so now I'm like common let's just get it done already.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] iceshark:
I agree and disagree. I have been rooting, unlocking, custom roming for 2 years on 9 phones. I read and learn. However I LOVE the one click and toolkit for the Nexus! In fact I find it the best put together toolkit and only one I have chosen to use instead of the longer way.. The toolkit is all but foolproof and rocks! Wish more made them this good. Would save lots of time and headaches.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Not exactly foolproof if there is a problem with the code. Not to mention if there is a problem, it will be hard to pin point the problem.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
I feel like this needs a bump right now...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Menelkir:
I feel like auto promote a thread in xda is passive of reporting.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] dascjb:
The long way? Really? unlock bootloader, flash cwm, flash su.zip , done.

I must be missing something?

The toolkit is a bad idea IMHO
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] wuby:
Well, you cant "brick" a phone, if im not talking about grabbing an hammer and bam. I wanted to root my device and load up some ROM. I was so afraid of getting a bricked phone but one member of XDA helped me and now i can without his help install ROM, flash kernel and root with Superoneclick. And yes, in most times i didnt knew what im doing (now i know), so if you didnt go to A instead of B, you cant fail the process ;)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] bigbear6708:
thank you for this. Luckily my first root was with HTC device...so it was a process to get s off. I learned a lot, and agree that it is almost to easy to root and mess up you phone. Good thing they aren't doing mine lol
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] slayr76:
Nandroid backup is all you need to remember using cwm or whatever custom recovery you prefer.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] undecidable:
The key point here is that these devices are now part of our brains,

and so it is critical that we control and secure them,

and we can only do this if we understand them.

My previous (and first Android) phone, a Nexus One bought direct from Google, I left it stock.

But when I bought my Galaxy Nexus I found it had Samsung firmware instead of stock (yakjuxw instead of yakju).

Loss of control.

I went through efrant's excellent howto (thread 1626895 - assume I cant post links)

to ensure I understood what exactly I was doing, and not only did it work like magic,

I also started to undersand how I could bring my device under my control.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
What is bumping?
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] 3rdstring:
"Bumping" a thread puts it back at the top of the recent posts list.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Figured that's what it was but was unsure. I'm old and have a young niece that's always talking in text talk and internet language so figured I should double check.