yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
May i ask a question? I myself don't use toolkits and recommend adb whenever possible. We all know the problems that inadvertently arise when they're used so why are they stickied? Wouldn't it make more sense to sticky adb along with this thread instead? Nobody is going to continue to research root if the first bit of information is the halfass way. Just curious is all.

I mean, aren't you guys the mods? Not trying to imply anything or the like, but don't you guys have some control over that and if not, maybe I'm confused as to what exactly a mod does. I know you close threads, clean them up, ensure they stay on topic and stuff but if you don't have control over something that is causing such issues maybe you guys should team up on the higher up. It goes beyond a brick here and there. If people aren't learning proper ways to root then they will never learn to develop either. I'm Sprint so know more than anyone the shortage of roms (with gnex anyway) and the ratio of developer to flasher is quite huge.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Well, here's my view, if the thread aren't breaking forum rules, you can't close or delete them, that's why it's still there.

Beamed from my Grouper.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
What about General disaster control? I guess I think some things shouldn't fall in breaking/not breaking rules category. While this is a useful thread, it probably wouldn't exist if the toolkit wasn't a sticky. Kind of like complaining because the dog ate a steak off your plate when you left it on the floor. Yes, people NEED to learn to read threads and research. No dispute there.

On the other hand, wouldn't the simple removal of one post make your lives easier on a whole? There would be far less "i bricked it" threads for you to trudge thru and people would actually have to get off their butt and LOOK for the things they need. Basically, pick the plate up off the floor and the dog won't eat your steak. Just sayin
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Citizen_Snips:
Still.. He's right. This wasn't my first android phone. As soon as I got my Gnex, the first thing I wanted to do was unlock it, root it and install any jellybean ROM to it. So I came over to the Galaxy Nexus forums and took a look at the stickies and literally the first topic I saw was [Toolkit][Unlock][Root]Samsung Galaxy Nexus.

I came from a Droid X2. We pretty much HAD to use a toolkit (sort of)(Pete's 1-click root method) in order to root. ADB and fast boot was literally 100% not needed in order to flash that phone. Bootloader is encrypted. So no Fastboot OEM unlock. I mean we could run the command, but it wouldn't actually unlock which is why the knowledge of all that was not needed. I knew about ADB and fasboot, but never learned because I had no reason to. It was just the 1 click method, installing a custom BSR, plug in to a/c power, reboot recovery and flash.

So when I came here and saw a similar script, I just went right for it. Sadly, that's for the most part how the world of today works. People don't want to sit at a computer for however long it takes to read and fully understand all of the stickies. They just want it done now. Quick and easy. I realize that is somewhat of a generalization, but I think the Nexus Q&A board has my back on this one. So obviously if you keep a toolkit pinned to the top of the forum for all of the newcomers to see right off the bat, of course they are going to use it first before learning how to do it manually.

I mean no offense to the developers who created these toolkits. I'm not saying that I think they cause more harm than good and should be deleted or closed. I'm just saying don't complain about people using these toolkits when the topics get stuck up to the top of the forum for everyone to see everyday right in front of their faces in a world where people want everything to be convienent, fast & easy.

There's an old saying I'm sure you're all familiar with... Catch a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. Stop dangling toolkits in peoples faces if you don't want those people to use them. Simple as that.

Well that's the way I see it at least.

P.S. I have since learned ADB and fastboot since I got my Nexus and no longer use or rely on toolkits at all.

P.P.S. eFrant / El Daddy, maybe a "I used a toolkit and now I'm stuck" topic? :p :silly:

Edit:

Exactly my point dude. Now why do you think that is?
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
TBH, you're right on target, that is the first thing I went for, I kind of forgotten how I got about using adb and fastboot, but certainly not by bricking my device and asking for help in the q&a lol.

Beamed from my Grouper.

---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

Now IMO they should make a driver install one click, drivers are a PITA. So much so I went for the nexus 7 toolkit to install the drivers and it never seen the light of the day ever.

Beamed from my Grouper.

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

I guess all the brick threads is for us to farm post counts and make our epeen longer(thanks bar).:D

Beamed from my Grouper.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Citizen_Snips:
I'm sorry but its common freaking sense. Want people to stop using toolkits? Unpin them all. Where's the first place people with even an ounce of common sense go to in order to learn what they need to know on internet forums? The stickies / pinned topics.

So if you want people to stop using them (at least as a first resort without knowing manual methods) simply unpin them lol. These forums are very active. They will be buried in no time. No more toolkits right on the top of the page 100% of the time = less people using them. Problem solved.

It would be so much easier to click the unpin button ONCE then to comment a hundred threads warning not to use them.

Lol. It is what it is. Hope I don't piss anyone off, but uh, yeah...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] mark manning:
Wow!!! Very well said. I don't think there is a problem either per say. If people mess up on a tool kit its most likely because they don't read and assume. I agree with everything you said but the only problem is the tool kit was wrote by a Senior Mod. Since it is not breaking rules it would be very very hard to ever have the pin removed.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Hmmm...Well maybe whenever i see a thread needing help due to a toolkit I'll just link his contract info. Im not saying his toolkit is a bad idea IF know adb to fix issues, but if he's a senior mod then he reads the threads and sees all the issues and cleanup everyone has to do because of it. Doesn't seem very community friendly to me and to be honest, if he knows what's going on and keeps it up there, furthering issues and helping to further ignorance while increasing potential bricked devices, he shouldn't be a developer or overseeing others because a developer CREATES and passes the know-how and education down to others.

Yes, nobody is forcing anyone to use his kit. Yes, it's up to each individual to seek out and gather their own information, to read and research before jumping into root. Sometimes you have to bite the big one and stand down because the casualties aren't worth the end result. People spend good money on their device and I really don't see how i could trust someone who clearly has forgotten what it's like to be new. Either that or he just doesn't care. Not trying to have trouble with a senior mod and all but maybe he needs to hand his phone to some of these new guys for a few weeks with nothing but that toolkit to arm themselves with. That and this lovely forum that can sometimes be rather unfriendly. Great site, great forum, great information. Just not always that stellar to the new guys. Bet that toolkit would come down real quick.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Citizen_Snips:
I'd just like to reiterate that very quickly, lol...

That should not matter. IMHO. (Re-read the first part of this reply again please :D) As far as I'm concerned his topic Directly contributes to the toolkit problems threads everyone so often complains about. This was (¿is?) a forum for developers, no? Teach people how to develop then. Don't just throw them a toolkit and say "This will work, now leave me alone."

I would expect more from a moderator. Especially a senior one. Swallow your pride and unpin it. I'm not saying you need to banish it from XDA forever, just put a link to the download in your signature and be done with it. That way people who know about it and want to use it know exactly where to find it, while the massive hoards of newbie rooters/ROMers don't.

I don't see why it should keep its place on the top of the page if it 1) doesn't help further development 2) doesn't teach people how to develop 3) causes people to mess their phone up 4) causes spam topics due to people messing up their phones using this method; just because he's a senior mod.

...actually the more I come to think of it, the more I wonder why it ever got pinned in the first place. Or why it wasn't unpinned when people kept having problems with it. Or why this is the first time I've ever seen this seriously discussed. Oh well. Getting kinda bored here. Gonna go flash something...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Sir, your argument is valid.

Well said.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] xzilem:
It just like saying don't use MS Windows because DOS can do all thing with command.

Anyway i'm coming from Nexus S community, we learn to do thing using adb and fastboot. But i still think toolkit make it easier for me when i switch to gnex. I can download stock image, create backup to pc and install driver easily with just one toolkit file without opening and searching in website for link and tutorial. I agree new user need to learn a little bit about adb/fastboot too.

I still use fastboot though for simple thing such as flashing recovery. :good:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
That's the point...you have used adb before so if something happens you can adb your way out of it. Quick off topic for you..I'm donating my ns4g to a developer but my screen is broke. He has one blah blah blah..I'm trying to pull my files before i send it off..do you still have your ns and could you just pm me a list of the basic folders on internal sd? Like i can't remember the paths to my cwm backups and all pic albuns. Cant see them when plugged in, cant adb backup cuz cant confirm, etc. Only able to pull. Thanks
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Difference here is you know your stuff, most newbs don't, so they always make a i brick my phone thread when they get boot loops.

If you know your stuff, i don't care whether you use a toolkit or what, cause you won't be making a i brick my phone thread.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] xzilem:
Yep, still not the toolkit fault, it's users fault because they didn't correctly setup adb/fastboot driver for their pc. The hardest part in manual rooting is to setup adb/fastboot driver (i'm having hard time to install nexus s i9023 fastboot driver before :laugh:).
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zwarx:
I know how to solve this problem. Stop calling them toolkits. They're anything but tools. People use tools to help them build things. These should be called hold your hand kits. That's all they do.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
they should make a driver kit instead of a toolkit..
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] mustbepbs:
Biggest thing that helped me was having a phone where I had to do things manually through fast boot and adb. When I had my xperia play nothing was automated short of flashing a ROM. I learned a lot when I had my gnex too. People just want instant gratification now and don't want to be bothered to read a long post with instructions. They'll always exist no matter what. They're idiots and they deserve what happens to their expensive phones and tablets.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
i think i'll just direct them to the toolkit thread from now on.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
My favorite saying is Don't feed the monkeys..and the toolkit feeds the monkeys. They are not idiots. They're excited new fellow androidians and its our duty to help point thm in the right direction....XDA FORUMS....not Jack them up right out of the gate. And that's the point of this entire thread! They are not learning adb and they are going automated because i SENIOR MOD is teaching them that's the way to go. If anyone is an idiot, is the mod. A ninja is only as good as its sensei instructs. Can't blame the noobs if the teacher gets it wrong
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] mustbepbs:
Aaaand you just proved my point. :rolleyes:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
The toolkit only have 1 use for me: Install the damn PITA drivers, nothing more.

Because imo, if i can't get the drivers right and i have to take a few hours to get it right, noobs won't want to do it manually and will just go for the toolkits.

So they should make a automated driver installer, then throw them the efrant's android 101 link.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] wunderkind:
This is a great thread. When I had my Nexus S, the rooting procedure was manual. Getting adb installed was a PITA. But I learned lots. In fact I became quite used to command lines. Once I got the GNex, I assumed the same. But apparently there's this toolkit. So I downloaded it. It took me a while to figure how to work it because as simple as it was designed to be, it required a paradigm shift in my thinking.

The OP's post is spot on. Knowledge takes time to acquire. Too bad many are impatient. I still thank the developer(s) for creating the Toolkit regardless.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
No...direct them to the mods profile so they can start asking him directly. Then maybe he'll get exactly what's going on. I really don't think his senior status should allow special sticky rights. This entire site has pretty much spoken out about this. Other mods have stated an opinion. This site isn't for the mods. It's for the people who come here and use it. No offense, but the mods are to ensure we stay on topic, follow rules, etc. ..not to run a communist sticky wall. There have been numerous members against that sticky. We, the active users, are the ones dealing with mess. You mods as well. Point being...dude...pull the flipping sticky.

EDIT: I have also seen some very useful thread that should be a sticky and get overlooked due to them being different alternatives. If gonna keep his then there should be one titled FOR NOOBS and give them the adb lessons and inform them they need to learn it before attempting the kit.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] beekay201:
i share the same idea. actually, i've said it when talking to toolkit-for-people-that-are-lazy-and-dont-want-to-read supporters and users.

plus 1
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
While I agree with you guys, I don't think pulling of the toolkit stickies will happen. The mods are here to do their best to keep the junk posts to a minimum and make sure users follow the forum guidelines.

Being that the toolkits do not violate any forum rules, they won't be taken down. As I've stated many times before in this thread these things do serve a purpose. However, it is unfortunate that they are made front-and-center. It's the first post people see when the jump into the modding section.

Efrant and Jubakuba have created great guides that are stickied. They are in the general and Q&A sections though. Most people who come here to "hack" their phone blow past these sections and head straight to the mod section. They then see the big toolkit sticky and just as the user efrant linked to a few pages back; they have no idea there are better alternatives.

I'm not here to make waves. I'm here to help. I enjoy spending my time here helping people with issues they may have. And hopefully help them learn the correct way of doing things so they can pass their knowledge along to others.

If you feel strongly about getting toolkit stickies "un-pinned." Politely PM a mod from this forum. (They are conveniently listed on top of the forum page) Let them know how you feel and point them to this thread if you'd like. Let's just stay away from the torches and pitchforks. :)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] mixtapes08:
I don't use toolkits i use adb. Toolkits are just for noobs or maybe lazy that doesn't want to read before rooting their phones.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
It's not that i feel should be unpinned exactly..Just there should be other alternatives along with it, like the ones you mentioned. How about a guide on adb along with the commands and what they do? How about one referring to said guide with instructions stating to become familiar with it BEFORE using the kit. I mean it's not fair to give a guy a lamp and withhold electricity you know?
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
They guide I have linked in my OP provided by efrant explains exactly what you mentioned.

Maybe that can be moved to the Dev forum.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
That's really all I'm saying. We all know they will most likely ignore it and we will still be in this same situation but at least the tools and information is easily accessible. I'll be the first to say i don't know squat but i lurked for the last couple years and didn't ever start posting until i was confident enough not to get yelled at. Luckily i have never bricked, but not everyone is anal retentive like me. I Google EVERYTHING and i mean everything i come across. I don't think people realize the extensive knowledge that Google holds.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] beekay201:
I've posted on a LINUX toolkit thread, that the op should do exactly that, post up all that info about what the process really is.

In the second post, then they could post the toolkit description, etc etc

would save us a lot of typing i'm sure
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Now that's something I'd like to get in on. I freaking despise Windows but have to use for the servers at school. What I'd like to do is dual boot from 2 separate drives. Have Linux on my external so can just unplug and go
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] leppo:
I don't particularly have an interest in learning the hard or pure way to do things on my phone, because quite frankly I have a specific idea of what I expect of my phone, and just want to get it to that state. My phone is more a tool than a toy, so I just want to cut to the chase in getting it the way I want.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Actually..adb is soooooo easy! And what you find hard now....could end up being the easiest fix later with a simple adb push xbin or whatever
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
I don't mind if you won't post a I brick my phone thread.

The principle of do anything but don't get caught.

Beamed from my Grouper.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Oh...and another thing that might cut down in the help threads is to differentiate between a bootloop /stuck on boot logo and an actual brick. I bought crapped myself on my first loop. Now I'm annoyed when it happens but I know its nothing to worry about.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
I was annoyed as hell when i encountered my first bootloop..
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
I was soooo scared! I thought I broke it. I restored so fast and really haven't touched kernels since
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Ha, my first bootloop is because of a dud CWM flash, no matter what rom .zip i flashed, it gives bootloops. Flashed the old one back and everything was fine.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Its been well over a year since that happened. I did get brave once since then (cuz has the sweetest bootlogo) but that kernel made my phone soooo hot it was practically on fire! So then id flash it long enough to get the boot image and reflash stock one. No kidding, was burning me. I've never played with the settings on them either. Figure I'll stick with stock kernel.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Citizen_Snips:
http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=32608084

:rolleyes:

This too : http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=32615514

With adb he would have been fine. No need to lose all his data.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Jeez, someone already got bashed for recommending toolkits and another guy just came in to recommend it again................
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Citizen_Snips:
Maybe every time someone makes a "help I used a toolkit" thread we should just give them the following link...

http://xdaforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=894259

Direct PM to mskip. (Toolkit dev)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] leppo:
are you displaying arrogance toward me because I prefer to use my smartphone as a smartphone, and not as a learning tool to learn about the tool itself? awesome.

/firstworldproblems
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
While I understand what you are saying, I think the point that you may not have understood about this site is quite nicely summarized in this post. There are many phone-related sites geared towards users only looking for the "end state". This is not one of them.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] EP2008:
When I turn my light on, I don't have to know how electricity is produced, nor do I care. The same goes for programming. I don't need to be an expert developer in order to install and use apps or upgrade my firmware via USB.

When it comes to rooting and custom rom's, the risks are always there. If a user doesn't know what rooting is, they shouldn't be doing it, but it's quite obvious from the "now I'm rooted, what do I do next" threads, that people ARE indeed clueless. Regardless, they accept the risks and if they can get help from the community, great, but it shouldn't be expected.

I know nothing about fixing cars, but my mechanic does. If I plan on replacing the transmission myself, I accept the risks.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] martonikaj:
Bingo. I only find it necessary to help someone who is actually willing to learn, rather than trying to offload their thought onto you and make you do everything for them.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] AnalogXDA:
Back in my day, if we wanted to root our smartphones we had to use punchcards. In the snow!
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
In regards to your electricity analogy, it doesn't fit unless you know nothing about electricity and decide to install a ceiling fan or the likes.

There is no development or programming knowledge involved with flashing anything, either. Should you know why you are doing what you are doing? Absolutely. Same thing when installing a ceiling fan, or replacing plumbing, or replacing the fan belt on a car.

Far too often do mechanics have to fix crap that people screwed up because they didn't know what they were doing (sounds a lot like those who don't know wtf adb is, yet root their devices). I suspect it is like that in other professions as well.

Leave it to the pros, or inform yourself.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] EP2008:
I don't want to argue about this and that.

I don't have to know a damn thing about electricity to install a ceiling fan because instructions are provided, along with warnings.

If someone wants to root their phone and install a custom rom, all they need is a good set of instructions and knowledge of the risks. They can either except the risk or not.

This thread just seems condescending to people with less knowledge than the "pros".
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
It seems condescending, until the next "I bricked my phone" thread.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
Ha I forgot about that post. He basically wrote what I just did almost 4 years ago!
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
:)

I've had it linked in my signature for quite some time. What matters is understanding the journey...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] case0:
Technically being the key word there. Implying that it goes beyond being simply a forum for developers, which it does.