yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] skynet11:
I noticed kyphur's last post was a few weeks after I first joined XDA (his last phone was my first phone, incidentally), and all I can say is he'd probably have a coronary if he saw what it's like now. One of my acquaintances was actually reminiscing about how much better things were back around the time of that post! I'd say that most of the "pros" here are bending over backwards to help newcomers resolve issues on their phones, which usually come from people having no clue what they're doing when they root and install mods, themes, kernels and ROMs.

When I first joined I did some legendary missteps, but rather than post another "I bricked my phone I needz halp nao!" thread (I was very tempted to do so, though), I simply read through the forums and always found what I needed to know. Although the title of this site is "XDA Developers" and not "XDA Tech Support" and devs are under absolutely no obligation to provide tech support (nor are they paid to), most of them still go out of their way to help others with their problems. Here's another link for the "entitled ones" who fail to appreciate this principle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmvCpR45LKA.

Terminators run on Android :cool:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] EddyOS:
Just my 2p...

Completely agree with the OP, I learnt for myself how to set up adb/fastboot in my system path (so I can use adb/fastboot in any folder) and anything I didn't know I searched for - on here and Google

If people just actually used some common sense then there'd be very few issues. Almost any question you'll ever have has probably been answered already so just search before asking a (potentially) silly question (as per Rule #1 of this forum)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
Although this is certainly true, in my opinion, the big underlying problem is that may newer users don't have that desire to learn that many of us have. Without that, and the more people use 1-clicks, the "I bricked my device, please help" or "I rooted, now what" threads will continue to proliferate.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] EddyOS:
And there lies the issue...it's the 'instant gratification' culture of the current generation that's to blame
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
I hate to quote myself, but...

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1472049
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] droidstyle:
Huh? I think you confused yourself lol.

*On a side note I agree with the op. It seems peoples attention spans are very narrow...that being said, comprehension and understanding is being left by the way side because the masses expect technololgy to do everything for them. In turn the world is slowly getting dumber everyday because folks no longer use that lump 3feet above thier arse.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] beekay201:
damn, it feels good to read posts from people that think alike. thanks guys.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Nexcellent:
Preach! 10char
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
i think my issue with the one click root methods, etc isnt the method itself... its the people who use it and then piss and moan when they break their own stuff.

this also leads to my next point...

these same people who piss and moan are the same people who then turn around and return their device to the seller/manufacturer. this causes 2 things... 1) cost of phones to go up because now more retuns are being accounted for 2) more and more bootloaders to be locked to make returns less frequent.

the first point is fraud. plain and simple. if i had my way, youd have to register your phone if you wanted to unlock it. do like HTC does. register, get a code to unlock the bootloader, AND VOID EVERY WARRANTY ON THE PHONE.

sigh... people suck.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] holmes6:
In the good old days the best handset I could get from vzw was a crippled motorola 710, and the only "dev" for that device just gave instructions on how to edit the seems in a hex editor to enable tether and change the carrier label and whatnot.

Fast forward to today and we're running an unlocked google phone with an amazing dev community. Yes, new and less experienced users are attracted. Perhaps the solution is better toolkits, not no toolkits. Turning away people who want to participate (by taking away their toolkits) can't be the right solution.

I think things are getting better.

I feel kind of the same way about the internet, it used to be just us geeks, now it's everybody and their mom and grandma, change happens, some of it good, some of it bad.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
you can do whatever you want, but if you use a toolkit and your phone breaks, dont post a thread saying "HELP I BROKE MY PHONE CAUSE I WAS LAZY AND USED THIS TOOLKIT"
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] leppo:
It's not that I don't get it... in fact, I've seen that post several times already (probably in threads similar to this one, as well as in a few people's sigs), and rather enjoy reading about the achievements and progress that devs here have made. If the day comes when I want another project, diving in to the finer details of phone modding might be the one.

I started to write a response to you, but then decided it's not worth it.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45

To sum it up:

I don't care what you do to your phone, if you prefer to use the toolkit and not learn, by all means to ahead, if you do f*ck your phone up one day, don't make a thread asking for help because it's on you.

/firstworldproblems
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] leppo:
I'm glad my conclusion was found worthy of copying, but too bad you didn't seek out the road less traveled, and do it your own way.

One thing that troubles me about this thread is that if this forum so highly values research and the most educational path, why bother talk about it with others? Wouldn't people feel more sense of achievement if they had to figure all this out on their own? Ultimately there's the search for recognition and ego, because these toolkits are only one step further than having told people how to use adb.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] xzilem:
Actually, in the toolkit thread, there's already a lot of faqs and tutorial about adb and manual rooting (read page 2 of the thread). So the toolkit thread is already good enough for new user to learn about android. No need to link new user to another similar tutorial thread.

Not the toolkit fault, it's user fault who doesn't want to read and learn.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
I do notice that section, and that is probably how I got about learning adb and fastboot.

But IMO most newbs just 'selective absorb', they only absord what is easiest - toolkit.

Beamed from my Grouper.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
Is it me or was that somewhat contradicting? Value research but dont bother talking about it...?

The major steps in conducting research are:

Identification of research problem

Literature review

Specifying the purpose of research

Determine specific research questions or hypotheses

Data collection

Analyzing and interpreting the data

Reporting and evaluating research

There are two ways to conduct research

Primary research:

Using primary sources, i.e., original documents and data.

Secondary research:

Using secondary sources, i.e., a synthesis of, interpretation of, or discussions about primary sources.

What achievements are going to be made if they have no idea what to look for or where to start? Below is my ns4g. Can't see anything. Internal won't mount in windows. I used adb pull and recovered all my files. Is a tookkit going to do that? It isn't only about a brick. Its other factors like my busted screen that can happen. Adb is a MUST learn! In school you had to do projects. Had your teacher not instructed you in the ways of research, what would you have done? And taking said knowledge you learned, you were then able to properly format a resume in which you got your job.

Adb is so far from a screwmydevicekit its unreal. Is basically the Android form of DOS. Just like windows, if you know how to talk to the computer you can fix practically anything. When windows can't boot due to corrupt MBR or partition table..dos can get in there and rewrite it. Same with adb.

And speaking of ego...you are the poster child. How can you criticize someone on "the road less travelled" as you yourself are nothing more than the wee grasshopper not bothering to gather a thing in which to prepare yourself for what I can surely promise you, to be a long cold winter when your device fails.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] leppo:
The point is, by advocating that people use adb, it is largely advocating that people follow the methods that someone else already discovered. How is that greatly better than using a toolkit? I think some of you guys won't be happy until we have to prove our credibility as a dev before even being able to sign up to read these forums.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zepius:
if something fails in the toolkit (and it does happen) all you see is the word "complete". you have zero idea of where it failed, what happened, if anything was changed before the failure point.

if you do it the manual way, its easier to troubleshoot where the problem happened and its easier to diagnose.

i guess that thought process is too difficult for you.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] leppo:
Then how about you wait to rag on that thread, and stfu in the meanwhile? And read the thread ffs. That post was already mentioned.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Sinful Animosity:
Quote for truth. When I tried unlocking my HOX's bootloader, I tried the SuperCid tool. It kept failing, and wasn't giving me any feedback. Finally made use of the adb commands myself, and I finally learned the usefulness of dd and commands like that. I would have still been failing with the automatic unlock, but after 10 minutes of searching, I found out how to do it myself.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Citizen_Snips:
+1

I had a toolkit fail on me. Had no idea what went wrong or why. Had to reset 100% back to stock and lost all my data.

Now at least with adb I can get out of a bootloop without losing all my data lol. Do people who go straight to toolkits know that? Nope...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JediNinjafication:
You are soooo wrong! I'm down to flash anything! I don't care how long you've been here or how respected you are. I'd much rather flash and test out something unproven just to help that person along. Better believe I'll head back to baked ROM when I'm done but when a toolkit fails and youre jacked. The proper way to do anything is to find the solution first. Not other way around.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Because don't feed the monkeys.

/firstworldproblems

Beamed from my Grouper.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] beekay201:
Isn't that what a toolkit is doing? Using the methods that were already "discovered"?
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ezeuba:
Like I said in another thread where I recommended a toolkit to someone in distress, most folks who are stuck just want their phones to work; they do not have the time or need for research, they just need help. In that thread people bashed me for recommending the toolkit and pressed the OP to follow the hard, long way. Funny enough the OP landed himself in deeper water than he was before; he got his phone into the dreaded phone connect to computer display screen(don't know the name for that). If the guy wasn't in distress it would have been funny. Toolkits are a lifeline, a rescue measure for those not well versed in the internal workings of phone programming/flashing. It serves its purpose.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Most ask for help threads in the Q&A section are due to toolkits, if you haven noticed.

Many people have followed the same set of instructions and ended up with a perfectly functional and some great knowledge afterwards, only he fu*ked up. Does everyone following the same set of instructions ended up with a phone in the [Phone > Triangle > Computer] screen? Does that say something about the guy?

While i do agree some people can't understand a thing even after reading for 6 months as it may be too complex for them, they should not even be playing around with things like this in the first place.

And to end my rant: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Cilraaz:
If they'd taken the time to learn in the first place (instead of likely using a toolkit), they wouldn't be in distress, as they'd know what to do.

See my previous comment.

The hard, long way? The hardest part of flashing manually is setting up the drivers.

If the guy could follow directions, the phone probably wouldn't have gotten worse. Manually flashing this phone is stupidly easy.

Toolkits are a crutch. When they work, they're fine. When they don't work, they only create headaches for the people who have to read the "I used a toolkit and now my phone is stuck in a bootloop" thread that comes afterward.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Half the time they can't even read properly, i used the toolkit before, all they need to do is to use the return to stock option..

Granted, it's not the best way to do it, but the point is most of them don't even read enough before committing..
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Cilraaz:
Those are the people that I feel no pity for when they're stuck in a bootloop... or as most of them would say "brick".
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
When I first mess around with rooting and stuff, i used the toolkit, but before i do anything, I read up on rooting and stuff, researched about it for a few hours before committing, and in the toolkit page, they happen to have a do it manually section, so i followed the manual path.. But the fact is most of the newbs just want the easy way out and think xda is some kind of make my phone kewl forum............
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] yyz71:
Was never a fan of toolkits.. I did a ton of research before I even attempted to root unlock my phone or all the good stuff that comes with owning an android device!! When you have something so easily done for you!! You don't really know what your device is a about. People just want the eazy way out:(
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Purpeltendire:
I completely agree with OP.

As you all can see, I'm a new user here at XDA. In fact, I don't yet have a phone that runs any form of Android. But I'm getting one soon, and being the kind of person who enjoys experiencing things the way they were designed, and in the most optimal way possible, I know that before long I will end up flashing the device I get (GNex).

That being said, the only reason I would use a toolkit the first time I root/flash/unlock, would be to install the drivers required. This way I know that I am getting the correct drivers, as opposed to searching through thousands of pages of Guides, How-To's, and Noob-Friendly Tutorials which each have conflicting information. Past that, I've already spent hours combing the XDA forums looking for things that may be helpful to me, and the "GNex" Bookmarks folder is growing rather large. But I'm learning very quickly the things I should and should not do, and I feel that in the end this will benefit me highly.

As posted in efrant's signature; "What matters is understanding the journey..." And it is with this simple statement that my views align perfectly. If you can't or don't understand the fundamentals behind what you are trying to do, why are you even interested in it in the first place? Many users view rooting as "Having a better phone." While this can be true at times, there are so many variables involved and so many things that can lead to that "Better phone" that if you believe rooting is the one stop solution to all your problems, then quite frankly you're a bloody idiot. I apologize for being blunt.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] heccubusxda:
I have 3 nexus device N7, GN, NS and have used root exploits or Tool Kits on all of them but I did my due diligence and checked out the competence and reputations of the devs before I entrusted my devices to their kits. I never had a problem with any of these kits and think they're a fantastic addition to the community.

Trust me, I researched the hell out of things beforehand, and was really cautious initially. I'd say I spent 3 months reading xda forums on the NS before rooting, when I eventually found a non-destructive exploit that allowed me to get root without wiping 6 months of data.

I was and am extremely grateful for that tool and at the time it made all the difference. I also learned my lesson from that and made sure to root my subsequent devices soon after I got them.

I'm not a technically-minded person but I'm far from unintelligent and these tools have allowed me to benefit from the community, and even give back by helping out the occasional noob, which I remain happy to do.

I really think this whole thing is a "different strokes for different folks" or "horses for courses" as the English say.

To your concern that these kits just enable noobs and idiots to brick their devices; I think these same people could just as easily brick using the manual method, it would just take them longer:D
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Mach3.2:
Frankly, idiots should not root, creates more trouble. It is evident in the Q&A section. Manual methods educate them and the how to unf*ck my device comes later as experience and some thinking, which cannot be learnt from guides, they are not dynamic, problems are dynamic.

Will the next nexus have a longer screen?
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ezeuba:
Wish I could like this post more than once, especially the part about manual methods just being a longer process to bricks, if the noob does not know zilch about what he/she is doing...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] lazol:
I'm glad that someone created the toolkit, because i don't have the time and even the interest to understand what happens in my phone when i root it.

The nice guy invented the toolkit for people just like me.

What you're saying is a little bit naive actually. It's like if the assembly programmer would get mad at you if you use an instruction in the command line without knowing what happens at a lower level.

When you type "format \c:", for example, you probably dont have any idea about what happens at a lower programming level and probably that doesnt interest you either.

And the same happens to the assembly programmer, that most likely is not interested in knowing how the transistors in the registry get phisically charged.

And so on.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
Do you have the time and interest when it breaks and you can't fix it because you didn't take the initial time to learn?

Comparing it to programming code is a bit silly, considering there is no code you need to learn.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] zelendel:
Then why come to a Developers Site I wonder

I have stayed out of this as It can become very heated at times with some of us older members, but I have to agree here. You dont have the time to understand what is going on then you really should not be messing with your phone at this level. If you dont have the time to understand then we dont have the time to help you when you mess up. Its that simple.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Beamer9408:
I could ask a question in the Q&A forum just about everyday but thankfully I know how to use fastboot and adb and don't need to ask these questions. Only saying that because if more people knew how to use them the less omg the toolkit isn't working and now I'm stuck threads.

Edit: the only good thing I have found with a toolkit is a install/install drivers portion but I'm on Linux so drivers don't really matter.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] lazol:
It's not silly, i'm sorry.

Operative systems and programming languages exist just for that: to make it easy for "normal" people.

They "hide" the complicate part with easy instructions. Like it or not, that's it.

Just like the toolkit.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
I said using code examples was silly, because there is no code to be learned. Just simple commands. You know how to type, right? Or do you need a mouse and app to click on words to type them out for you? Same logic.

Did you learn how to drive? Or did you not have time, and someone drives for you? Sure would suck if you had to get behind the wheel yourself one day and didn't know how to drive.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] dreamsforgotten:
I agree and disagree for the most part, tool kits automate a very simple process. There are some phones that a lot more work is required. Tool kits for nexus device, kinda pointless
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ezeuba:
You couldn't have said it any better. It's as if some folks here are just plain jealous that what took them years and occasional pain to learn, some others are doing at the click of a button. Toolkits serve a very important purpose IMHO.

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------

What is code? What is a command. Same thing: instructions given to a system to perform a certain task.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] lazol:
You're right, typing is same logic.

When you type on you keyboard the letter "d", a letter "d" appears on your screen.

But that's not obvious neither magic. A quite long and complicate process needs to take place

for that "d" to show on your screen.

But you're not interested in this process. You might become interested however, the day you press that button and nothing happens.

You might become curious about how it works, and you most likely will end up on a hardware forum in wich you'll ask for help for fixing yor problem.

In that forum you're going to find people that think it's weird you don't know anything about how a letter show up in your screen, once typed on the keyboard.

But some of them will probably help you, helping the world at the same time, because you're going to think how wonderful it is that nowadays there's still someone that can give something for nothing.

And maybe you'll get involve in hardware too!
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
Now you guys are just being ridiculous. It took me maybe an hour to learn what a toolkit does for you. Years? Please :rolleyes:

Do what you will, I am only trying to explain the merits of knowing what you are doing. You are on a development website. You would think you would at least try to educate yourself on the process. Ignorance is never bliss.

I foresee a whole new batch of help threads incoming.