yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
See that's the difference. You prefer to use toolkits and that's fine. You are interested in learning and are aware of the risks you are taking. That's something that cannot be said about a lot of users.

I was never bashing Toolkits. I was just saying they enable users to mod their phone without the slightest understanding of what is actually happening. So when they forget to wipe before flashing another devs ROM they litter the forums with "my phone is bricked pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeesse help" In some cases it's impossible to help because they cannot give accurate information about what they did to help us troubleshoot.

Toolkits have their place. They are a very valuable tool to many people and I have much respect for the devs that write them.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] @rbiter:
I have wrenches and screwdrivers in my toolkit and my phone is bricked. Please help. Should I put the battery in or take my screen off first?

iphone. helping computer illiteracy become popular since 2007.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
Use the hammer.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Simer03:
I'm gonna have to agree with this...I work for Verizon and some dude came and claimed his nexus was getting only an hour on battery without any use...since he's within his trial period, we had to exchange it out....well when he left, I decided to boot the phone and bam, saw the pad lock on the Google screen and knew right there the guy just ****ed something up and couldn't fix it

Sent from my Nexus Prime
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] EP2008:
A user can knowingly screw up their phone and you guys will exchange it no problem? According to samsung, this falls under tampering with the software and voids the warranty. You guys need to either update your policy or enforce it better.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
They are not trained to detect for such things...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] The Gingerbread Man:
I won't pretent to know your company polices and stuff but surely that should have been tested first? Open boot loader = void warrenty = no exchange and wave the customer good bye? Damn
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Simer03:
U guys have to understand...a one year warranty is different from the trial period with carriers! Within the trial period, u have to exchange someones phone if its defective! In this case, this fool just said his battery wouldn't last, so that is a defective thing with the phone, so I've no choice but to exchange unless I wanna lose a sale! And new activations are worth more than upgrades, exactly the reason why they make existing customers pay more for a phone on upgrade than someone buying the phone on a new line(s)! Its ****ed up but welcome to the phone sales business! Lol! The best part is when some customers say they love their advanced task killer! All I do is cringe when I hear that!

Sent from my Nexus Prime
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Simer03:
Oh yeah and with that customers nexus, he had it turned on when he exchanged it, but I myself decided to see if it was unlocked just for fun....and even joked with my employee about it saying "watch its unlocked haha" and it was! Lol

Sent from my Nexus Prime
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] ogdobber:
i totally agree with the op on this one. the toolkits at the most should just install the drivers. by doing everything the user has learned absolutely nothing:(

fastboot oem unlock

fastboot flash recovery recovery.img

these are pretty tough commands:rolleyes:

the toolkits are "giving away fish" instead of teaching people "how to fish"
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Zomghxc:
On the topic of xda developers not being tech support... I work at a major retail store as a technician/computer sales, and I see a lot of the same stuff. We sell a printer, and people can't set it up themselves and so they call us. It's not our job to walk them through it, but we offer advice because it provides good customer service.

I remember there was one guy who we sold a motherboard and he was determined that he could install it. So we didn't charge him the install, sent him home with the mobo, and a day later he brought it in saying it was defective. I opened it up, and sure enough, he screwed up and seemeingly jammed the processor in and bent quite a few pins, never getting it in right. I was able to fix it.. But I made sure I charged him for it.

That's kind of the same thing going on here. One click methods make things way easier, but you don't know what you're doing before you do it. I'll admit, my first time rooting, I used a one click, installed some random rom, and soft bricked my device. I was able to fix it by reading through some guides, and have since been frequently flashing things, breaking it, fixing it, etc... All so I can learn what to do.

My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy, but I love to learn what goes on when you hit a button. Some people don't have that drive, and that's whats making these one click methods seem terrible. The new users want to use them, and do without doing any research. It's great to have a community like this who is willing to help though.

Thanks, guys.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] :
I personally don't like to use toolkits because they are limited in some functions. I created myself some *.bat files so that I don't need to enter all the commands everytime. For example now I need only to set my phone into fastboot mode and click on the bat-file instead of typing every command into the command prompt ;)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
It has been a while since we saw this thread on the first page. So, given the latest proliferation of "OMG I can't update to the latest build so I used the toolkit and I still can't upadate" threads, BUMP. :)
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
Double bump?

For all the folks who have trouble installing OTAs because they have no idea what is on their device after using 'whatever' toolkit.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Flippy125:
This needs to be stickied. Tool kits are ruining the community
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] harveydent:
10char
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Liskrig:
I used a Toolkit (Wug's) on my Galaxy Nexus because:

I have been meaning to try one

I have been doing it the old fashioned way since 2008

I was too lazy to do it "old school"

I'm advanced enough to un-brick it if something goes wrong

All went well, first time, one time and it's acting normal, I was even able to re-flash it back to stock to replace it with Verizon (hardware issues not caused by me).

It was too easy, and to be honest I kind of missed the feeling of hitting Alt + Enter in Command Prompt and basking in the green glow of the text ;)

I do wish though that people would do a bit of research on what is going on behind the scenes so they don't flood the forums with silly questions, and then donate to the developers (its stable software nonetheless).
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
efrant, Thanks for the bump. I always want to bump this thread when I see 5 or 6 of the same "HELP ME PLZZZZZ!!" threads on the front page of Q&A. However, I don't like bumping my own thread. :)

Thanks, but I don't think that will happen.

On the topic of stickies... I do think that efrant's guides deserve a sticky somewhere. They are fantastic.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] thas5:
I think it's okay to use some Tool kits as long as you have some understanding of what you're doing. The first time I my rooted my Gnex, I did it manually on my mac. I lost root after updating to 4.0.4(careless of me, I know). I used mskip's tool kit the second time I rooted just out of convenience & I found it to be really well made. Virtually all safety precautions that need to be taken were in the steps. Even if something goes wrong, it's extremely easy to fix it most of the time with the toolkit as long as you know what process you need to take.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] gots2beme:
I'd recommend this guide over a toolkit any day.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] slayr76:
Tool kits are made to make the process quicker to unlock an root,no one said they where a learning tool.Why don't you winge about people making android roms as well an go make your own if you want to learn so much.If you run into any problems there are hundreds of tutorials out there to help you fix mist problems a quick google search will give you all your answers.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
I take it you didn't even read my OP...
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] slayr76:
Your citicising people who dont want your advice,kinda pointless as people will either learn from their own mistakes or take their time a read a tutorial by their own choice.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] SITH16:
My 2 cents?

Development will eventually dry up for most of the devices if there were no one click methods made. There simply aren't enough people with these skill that care enough to put the effort into expanding roms themes, and mods for all the different devices that run android. And lets face it, part of android's popularity is the fact that people like us tell people to get them...that they are better than the iphone. This is true when it comes to customization.

In reality the iphones pluses are that it is idiot proof. Androids on the other hand are rarely optimized out of the box. It takes this community to fix the problems that they are shipped with. Most people I know that have unrooted androids get ****ty battery life, and can't get it to do half of what I can.

So I said, good for the one clicks, and all the people that will sit replying in pm for 30 mins. With out all of them, and a whole host of others, android devices would not be out selling iphones...The majority of the devices would stay inferior.

Again, my 2 cents.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] joshnichols189:
I've noticed more people in Q&A telling noobs to learn the commands and unlock and flash everything manually. It makes me happy.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] joshnichols189:
Also, the rooting community is terribly small in the grand scheme of things. Android isn't outselling the iPhone because of us.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] Android_Monsters:
Depends on the phone. Nexus is much easier to root than the last developer phone.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] El Daddy:
1) Yes, people do want advice. The whole Q&A forum is made up of people who are looking for advice.

2) People aren't learning from their mistakes nor are they reading tutorials. Again, see Q&A.

Luckily we have members like efrant, adrynalyne, Jubakuba, and others that are willing to take time to help people with problems and show them the correct way of doing things.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] slayr76:
I never said people don't want advice, I said just because that person chose to ignore his advice a get his phone replaced he got angry an started blaming root toolkits for the reason people spam the forum with problems.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] slayr76:
Most Q&A are because of faulty hardware , bad radio,wifi or rom issues not rooting.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] govindadas:
I understand your point... it's kinda like fiat currency... easy money does indeed mean awesome economic growth... but crazy bubbles are almost sure to follow!

but... isn't bricking a phone (& fixing it) sort of a necessary experience for anyone who dabbles in this game? :D
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] theking_13:
I couldn't agree more. I really couldn't. Its ridiculous too when people claim that its difficult or long and painful to use these One Click programs. :sly:
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] joshnichols189:
No they're not. I sit in the Q&A forum between classes so I can try and help people and aside from VERIZON users having signal drops there are dozens of bricked threads. People don't even know what brick means. It is true that doing things with the toolkit stops people from learning it themselves so they have to ask. I would blame the toolkit as the OP too because it is the toolkit's fault.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JoeSyr:
If this is a big problem, why not write a "Think you bricked your phone? Read this!" sticky for the Q&A forum? Sounds like people are just panicking because they don't know any better, and once they've bootlooped they don't have the good sense to read through the long guide threads before posting. So put something at the top of the forum that would appeal to someone in such a position if what's there now is missing the mark.

I looked at the "Ultimate Guide" that's stickied there now and while it is a great resource for anyone starting out, putting the panic section at the bottom probably ensures that a lot of people who already have a problem won't get to it.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] joshnichols189:
You said it yourself.. they don't have the sense to read through a guide like that.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] 15israellai:
I can't agree more with OP. Although I'm relatively new to android, I have always been keen on doing all the stuff myself - typing commands, fiddling with CWM, etc. Moreover, I always make sure I can turn back whenever I do something to my phone. I reckon everybody should do so too.

Blazing on my Nexus Prime
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] rayiskon:
Before getting into any discussions, we all must accept the fact that xda is no longer the place that it used to be. My first android phone was an htc desire, i remember that for more than half a year i used to visit xda, read about stuff and try to educate myself about how things work without even having an account and participating in any thread. Oh well, 2 years ago things were different, even the purpose of developing has changed..after the android boom,nearly anyone can own an android smartphone, and sometimes i'm amazed how many people are ready to flash zips or image files without actually knowing what are they flashing, just to satisfy that lil voice inside them that tells them they are participating in some sort of tech developing, and it makes them feel good about themselves. Flashing roms or adding tweaks for the majority is no longer a way to improve and tweak things up, or theme ur phone to the way u like it, to many it became a lifestyle, either people have too much of spare time or they don't have anything useful to do during the day so they actually spend more time on flashing their phones than actually using them. Now this is still ok when u know what u're doing, it's ur life and ur time after all. But when u tend to be a flashoholic without actually having the minimal knowledge, that becomes a problem. I'll give u an example i came across just a couple of days ago while i was reading one of my previous phone's section (can link u to it if anyone wants when i'm on my pc). a guy opens a thread in dev section with a title "did i brick my phone?" , anyways i said ok, forget the xda rules about posting, lets see what happened with the guy, of course, op gives minimal info about what he was doing, he claims that he was flashing a recovery through terminal and that after reboot his phone won't start anymore.. after a few pages of discussions it turns out that he dd pushed the recovery.img to the wrong partition (dev/block/mmcblk0p5 instead of mmcblk0p13) and ended up with a brick of course. Now as sad as it sounds, but a toolkit would've prevented such a thing from happening. Ya i know, it was his fault for not reading around and toolkits in a way support the ignorance and the flashing-without knowing what u're doing-attitude. And this brings us to the fact that the op might have missed the issue, that is, blame it on people's attitude instead of blaming it on the use of toolkits. Whether there are toolkits or not, there will always be some "look at me i'm developing and testing"- like people, it's the sad reality of the smartphone boom.

My opinion on the toolkits matter is that toolkits are great, they make life easier when u know what u're doing, it's not the toolkits that need to change, it's people's mentality.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] slayr76:
The galaxy nexus is probably the most easy to unlock an root using a simple guide or toolkit, why are people so fixiated on it.I have never seen a bricked device from using either mskip or wugfresh galaxy nexus toolkit, I'm just glad more people are using nexus phones over iPhones as Samsung deserve more recognition whether their users are educated or not.Everyone in jailbreak community uses a jail breaking app which is no different to using a root toolkit.If you take away root tool kits your just going to lose probably 50% of people who rely on it an can't be bothered learning from scratch otherwise they would just buy iphones an use something like redsn0w, its a simple as that whether you like it or not.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] jfcooley:
I don't post much myself, but wanted to weigh in a bit.

I used adb to unlock and root my Evo 3d. I remember being scared as hell and slightly frustrated learning commands. I'm older and forgetful...leave it at that.

My E4GT was rooted when I got it.

I used the toolkit on my Nexus.

If I have a choice I'll use a toolkit before going manual. I have more faith in my ability to follow simple directions over complex. What I have learned in regards to adb and the like has been at my own pace, not with the fate of my device hanging on my ability to get commands to stick in my brain.

That being said, I have to say when I have run into problems (and I have) I've been better served by searching and fixing myself. I understand exactly what the OP says, I read those threads everyday. I read them to see the answers so I can help myself or someone else.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP 100%. As a newb, I would have rather had a toolkit for peace of mind. I'm not the type to lie and return a device claiming a defect. The safety net of the toolkit allowed me to get my feet wet safely and then move on to understanding what the hell it did instead of vice versa.

As a lurker, I will say it is saddening to see folks hose a device and immediately post "HELP!!!". I soft bricked my E4GT one night and spent the better part of the next day fixing and understanding what I did so it wouldn't happen again.

The only advice I give in regards to XDA to others when I end up discussing Androids is "Read, read, read...and read some more".
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] efrant:
Your right, it is very hard to brick a GNex, using a toolkit or otherwise. That said, if you take a look at the Q&A forum, you will see sooo many threads related to not being able to install an OTA update when the notification was received... and I'm not talking only a couple of threads here...

Why do you think this is? Probably because they click on some button that said "return-to-stock" or something, and they thought "hey, my phone is now stock". Fine, all the images are now stock, but you know what, the recovery that was flashed was not the right stock recovery, or the kernel was not changed, or whatever the case may be. But the n00b who just used it (without having gone through the process of figuring out what the toolkit is actually doing when you click on a button) gets frustrated, saying Android is a piece of crap -- can't even install something simple as an update.

If someone doesn't want to bother learning what is happening, they should leave it locked and stocked, or as you said, head to Apple. The iPhone 4s is a great device and would perfectly suit the needs of those who have no desire to learn.

The whole point (of at least any guide that I write) is not just to follow directions -- it's about going though the process step-by-step with the intent of trying to get people to see and realize what is actually happening, and hopefully get an understanding of the workings. Following guides blindly (even good ones) with no intent on learning, just to say that you did it manually, is no better than using a toolkit. It's not about doing it manually -- it's about learning what to do or what is being done.

And like you, I'm forgetful as well. There is no way I would be able to memorize a list of directions like that. And I don't. I know what needs to be done because I understand the process. The steps or directions follow naturally.

Safety net? Flashing/rooting/whatever is no more safe using a toolkit than doing it yourself.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] spencer88:
Manual or nothing. The only way you learn anything is by actually doing it yourself and NOT by using a toolkit.

I remember when root first came out for the EVO 4G on Froyo. That was a lot of manual steps, and it was also my first Android phone as well as my first time rooting an Android phone.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] joshnichols189:
Do you not read? No one EVER said that toolkits cause bricks. They don't. The problem is that by using toolkits people don't know what is going on, and they don't know how to fix it. If people would learn how to use fastboot and maybe you know, make a NANDROID for themselves, half of Q/A wouldn't exist. And it would be for the better.

And because 50% of people on this forum that have a Galaxy Nexus is a HUUUUGE loss to everyone right? I would rather lose the 50% of people that don't know anything and blindly do stupid **** to their phone than have to put up with five million Q/A threads that are about the same thing.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] JoeSyr:
Well there's a critical moment where somone decides they need help. They post because they didn't see anything that they think applies to them. So, put something somewhere that applies to them that they'll see before they post. When someone has a problem their attention span and willingness to read through things drops, but not to zero.

Also, I think a lot of you are describing things with great hyperbole. Take a step back and look at the reality of things. The Q&A forum is far from flooded with people who are softbricked and panicing. In the last five pages there's one original thread by someone who doesn't know what they yellow triangle thing is (and another thread from january that he bumped before posted his own).

It's a shame that some people think that learning simple things is beyond them and stay willfully ignorant, but I don't really see anything that makes me think that there's a trend going anywhere that makes this a huge problem.

Honestly if the Q&A forum is flooded by anything worth noting it's people who didn't read the general FAQ which answers their question that's been asked a thousand times, which isn't even stickied in that forum. It's buried as the last of seven (seven! information overload much?) stickies in this forum.
[Samsung Galaxy Nexus] adrynalyne:
To be fair, in my SQL classes, there are folks who post questions in the class forum, that are clearly answered in the syllabus. In fact, the instructor usually will ignore you if they are. The syllabus applies to everyone so...no student can think it doesn't.

I think it comes down to that truth seeking is not a default mode for most people. Most folks are used to conversing and discussing to find their answers. It takes a certain mindset to desire and know that you should take the initiative to find answers for yourself, and to know how to. It is typical for powerusers and those are who independent to think like this. I am in an online only program, and it is 99% self taught. I HAVE to be a truth seeker to survive. The conversationalist would be better off going and listening to a lecture and participating in discussion sessions.

So what is the answer? I am not sure there is one. The truth seekers like us get mad at the folks who want to know by merely asking, whether the information is out there or not. IMO, the two groups of thinkers are completely incompatible and that causes half of the douchebaggery we see in posts (from both sides).