yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] hansip87:
Well, as i said it 'might' be incompatible.. So if it runs then okay.. ;) But as of my experience, the 64 one is the best one to date for ray.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] yujin_11:
i missed the 'might' word, apparently (y me no carefully read?!)

does baseband 64 offer any improvements against baseband 36?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] tapata42:
Can I unlock the bootloader when Its not allowed.

I have rooted my Xperia Ray and now i want to unlock its bootloader to flash custom roms. I have tried using the official Sony page for unlocking the bootloader and my computer cannot find my Ray cuz when i hold the Vol+ and connect the micro USB nothing happens. No blue light:(.When i do that with Vol-, the LED is green. I also tried with the Flashtool( in plugins there is a Bootloader unlock option. I do the first step where you need to hold the Vol-, but at step 2 i cant continue cuz i cant go to fastboot mode with pressing the Vol+(btw Vol+ is working when i turn on the phone).So I am stuck here. Can someone help me.

P.S:When I enter *#*#7378423#*#* on my phone it says: Bootloader Unlock Allowed : No:(
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
Bootloader Unlock Allowed : No means the bootloader is not unlockable and your phone could be network locked, you cannot unlock the imei way which is the official way, you can try the test point way.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] El Brillantinas:
That's a little bit disappointing. I believe you, the best example of this is when SONY (still Ericsson) released GB for Xperia X10... it was terrible.

Now that I'll probably stick with A2.3 official SE ROM, another question: is there any way to install CM7? I desesperately need it!
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
i'm not into custom roms, but you can search this forum, if it's available you need to unlock your bootloader to access all the custom roms.

I wont comment on the cm7, as there are many custom roms out there, you need to spend sometime reading through the threads and see which one you feel best for your needs.

i'll be trying out the ics, if i dont like it, i'll just flash back the stock rom.:D
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] JackyJack:
Update the baseband ?

Hi there,

My phone tells me it's on XXXXX-XXXXXXXXX-XXXXXXXX-36 baseband, how do I update it to -64 (or newer) ?

It's unlocked and MIUI v4 OatnezrA's release is installed on.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] El Brillantinas:
Thanks for answering.

The problem is that I did the SE test, and the result was the bootloader of my XRay is not allowed to be unlocked.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
I wont give you any false info, so i'll let someone else answer the question, is you phone sim locked, and you did use the service menu.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] El Brillantinas:
Yes, it is. And yes, I did the test using the service menu.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
i think you need to sim unlock it first.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] JackyJack:
I still did not found any answer to this...
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] XL_:
ics

may i know which is the most stable ics rom for ray?

is official ics have been release for xperia ray?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
try connecting you ray to your pc and open PC Companion if you have the update then it's released, if not keep on waiting.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] annax:
can i resize my default sony xperia Ray keyboard? (international keyboard)

it is good, but it too small

so i often miss type a word

i tried smart keyboard pro, its good, but im not familiar with key mapping from smart keyboard

i just need default keyboard bigger

can i resize it? my x ray still unrooted

thx
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] mo22i:
Can the .42 firmware update directly to the ics update or will it need to update to .62 first before going to ics? I meant the official update.

Sent from my ST18i
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] decko99:
Hi. I can't unlock bootloader with my Ray on the official sony website. It says it's not allowed. If I use the unofficial method will it still work? Will it cause a brick?

It's number[2] on this

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1500226

I dont get the highlighted bit.On mine it says: Bootloader Unlock Allowed: No

Why can't I unlock it? I am very confused.

Thanks
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
is your phone network sim locked.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] decko99:
I don't know, I have had the same sim card for the last 10 years on vodafone. Any way to check?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
use the service menu to find out.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] blaze012345:
can overclock GPU for better game performance??
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] darkshadow1997:
hey guys

i want to ask a question if i unlock bootloader the official way and lose drm.i will never accept ota updates but my questionwill i brick my device if i flash firmware or in future official ics update with flashtool.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] MegaWath:
Last year, I've unlocked my ray with Sony procedure.. If I relock it whit the ftf file, my drm data will be rewritten? Or they are lost forever? :(
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] decko99:
I might sound like an idiot, but how do you do that?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] stebenwulf:
I have unlocked bootloader (SE way) and rayoniums v7 GB (with GB kernel).

How I can update to ICS (official) without breaking my phone ?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Hameer123:
ICS Official release

Is this news real from GSM Arena that Google is seeding Official ICS for Xperia Ray
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
*#*#7378423#*#*

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

manual update and flashing will not affect your phone.

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

buy a new phone or change the internal MB, the only official way is OTA or using sony's software, in this case it will not work.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

it's sony, this info has been confirmed a long time ago.

http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_began_seeding_ics_update_to_the_2011_xperia_lineup-news-4091.php
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] hjf9259:
due to my poor english,i can't understand what is a UV KERNEL?

is it under voltage?

any detail explaination?

---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 PM ----------

you can relock the bootloader,then flash with PCC/US/OTA without bricking your phone

i did it,it works!!!
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] MegaWath:
Did Relocking bootloader rewrite Drm data?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] hjf9259:
no,when you unlock bootloader in fastboot,your drm data is lost forever

there is no way to recover

Almost forgot&VERY IMPORTANT,never relock bootloader with modificated rom,that's will make a boot loop...
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] asertyio:
[Q] Is there any method to root Ray running 4.0.3 / build .562, with locked bootloader ? (also network locked)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] joeTaco:
Searched around for quite a while, but I haven't found a definitive answer for this:

For those of us with carrier phones that say Bootloader unlock allowed: No, obviously we can't use the Sony site to unlock. But can we use the testpoint method? Has anyone tried? Thanks.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] asertyio:
no, it doesn't works via testpoint. unlocking bootloader procedure it's made with setool2, and you need credits(~10-20euros). there is an user called jinx13, details here http:// phoneunlockserver. com/forum/index.php?/topic/7-guide-all-xperia-bootloader-unlock-unlock-sim-enable-fastboot/#
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] mo22i:
How to take screenshot on this official update?

Sent from my ST18i
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] albagani:
press vol down button + power button
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] mo22i:
Not working for me. :(

Sent from my ST18i
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] blaze012345:
Guys please help!

my ray is on 2.3.4, .62, rooted, bootloader unlocked, stock rom, aire kernel.

So how can i update to official ICS? with OTA or pc companion?:confused::confused::confused:
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] mo22i:
Update with flashtool.

Sent from my ST18i
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] *boy*racer*:
I tried google but no luck so I'm posting here. I backed up official ics then re-baked it using android kitchen my way. But after I flash it, my wifi dont switch on. Is it something to do with ics not working well with the android kitchen?

Thanks
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] blaze012345:
I flashing my ray 2.3.4 but...

15/058/2012 19:58:53 - INFO - Device connected in flash mode

15/059/2012 19:59:09 - INFO - Selected ST18i_4.1.A.0.562_(1252-5332).ftf

15/059/2012 19:59:09 - INFO - Preparing files for flashing

15/059/2012 19:59:21 - INFO - Please connect your device into flashmode.

15/059/2012 19:59:22 - INFO - Opening device for R/W

15/059/2012 19:59:22 - INFO - Reading device information

15/059/2012 19:59:33 - INFO - Start Flashing

15/059/2012 19:59:33 - INFO - Ending flash session

15/059/2012 19:59:33 - ERROR -

15/059/2012 19:59:33 - ERROR - Error flashing. Aborted
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kspuchakai:
LWW rooting for using reverse tether

I need to root my Live with walkman but i don't know how to procced
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] MarkMRL:
I was wondering, what's the point of Touch Recovery? It doesn't add anything useful (selecting using the buttons is way faster too) but it doesn't support USB mounting from recovery, which is pretty much a vital function, imo. Is there any way to change the recovery included in the kernel? I'd rather use Doomlord's as it allows me to mount the USB mass storage from recovery.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
you've posted in the wrong thread.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
read this

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1601038
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] joeTaco:
Is there any downside to running the official Nordic ST18i firmware on my Canadian ST18a? If not, I'm wondering why they make different firmwares for different regions in the first place. Thanks!
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] annax:
how can i play .avi file with size over 300mb?

i played with MX video player, but it can't

if it can, it will force close

should i instal ARMv ? which one suitable for xperia ray?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
it has something to do with your video, I have videos over 1GB and they play perfect.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] annax:
i've tried some videos, some cannot play and some force close

so i think there is no error from video, but it came from player

maybe

but why?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
if it plays fine elsewhere doesn't mean it will play fine on the ray, it depends on how you have encoded the video, i've had some avi that will support hardware other only software and on the ray it plays choppy or out of sync, and other play fine.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Japanska Buba:
I cant unlock bootloader, sim-locked.

Is it possible to flash new official ICS trough ftf or OTA so I get ICS kernel and than flash a Custom ICS rom?

And has anyone done that and how is the performance?

ty
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
you can flash using the flashtool, ics is only officially through the sony software from the PC. this can be done even if the bootloader is locked, but not too sure if it works with sim locked phones.

even with a BL locked phone you can root now, so i'm sure a custom rom my be possible.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] fglee:
Xperia Ray RAM

Hello to all.

I've a question regarding the RAM capacity of Xperia Ray. It's supposed to be 512 MB, but when I installed OS Monitor & Memory Status apps from google play they both say that the device has 334.3 MB of RAM total.

So my question is, is this reading normal and if so where are the other 176 MB and why are they not taken into account ? Or maybe just those apps doesn't show proper total values ?

I'm using sirkay's kernel (XRay 4.0.1) and RayOnium ROM based on the nordic firmware (4.1.A.0.562).

Thanks in advance! :)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] syin16:
have a quick read at http://developer.sonymobile.com/wp/2012/03/30/learn-about-the-technical-differences-between-gingerbread-and-ics/
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] kms108:
the rest of the ram is allocated to the OS which is not visable.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] raghavafitt:
Hello guys i want to know about

I am on miui now...

How to go back to gingerbread as without root and cwmpack

I dont want to root and cwm

Simply i want to back to my original gingerbread plz guys plz help me i will very much thankful for your help

-----thanks
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] chiefy009:
Use pc companion to reflash back to factory
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] annax:
so, what should i do? 'cause i dont understand how to encode video

im just noob T_T

i just wanna play all kind of video at my ray :)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Knight47:
[Q] Problem in fastboot(xperia ray)

When i try to follow the procedure of unlocking boot-loader in my Xperia ray,my PC didn't recognize my Xperia ray and still says "WAITING FOR DEVICE" I don't know why is this happening to me.(even i connected my ray in fast-boot mode-blue led)

I used "fastboot.exe -i 0x0fce getvar version" and "fastboot devices" commands

I installed drivers for fast-boot mode from android sdk(C:\Program Files\Android\android-sdk\extras\google\usb_driver)

i replace the android_winusb.inf file with the android_winusb.inf file that Sony provided.

My windows 7 device manager identifies as Sony Ericsson sa0102>Android boot-loader interface

But there is no response.It still says waiting for device

Please help:mad::confused::confused:

Because I want to try JJ's HYBRID ROM v1.1 Official rom:p
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] *boy*racer*:
@Knight47

Does it tell you to put in fastboot mode or flash mode?

And have you ticked USB debugging?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Knight47:
fastbootmode, so i put my ray in fastbootmode(blue led)

but flash tool said that i put my phone in flash mode Why?:confused:

ya i ticked
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] geekoo:
Hi All,

I just got my Ray as I wanted a phone that looks more like a phone and less like a TV :)

So I am thinking of putting in some custom kernels and roms, as the phone seems extremely slow, esp while playing games. I have come from a G1 (which I have unlocked and installed ROMs extensively after 3 days of buying) and a DHD (which I keep stock for an year).

Ray has the same specs as a DHD, so I wonder why it seems slow. Maybe the 768MB RAM made the difference after all, as I have only ~50MB free on the Ray.

Now some questions I have are like this :-

1) Isn't there any Radio that I have to mess with in Ray. Just flash the Kernel and ROM and I am done? Is it that simple? Are there absolutely no other compatibility issues? (I have bricked a G1 due to radio-kernel mismatch)

2) If I want to flash a new/different kernel after installing a custom ROM, do I need to reflash the custom ROM again? Or is just flashing the kernel enough?

3) What is the safest way to start flashing my phone? I have the lastest Jan 2012 update. Should I try a doomlord kernel only and reboot and see if that works? Later I could try flashing MIUI. Does it work this way, in steps?

4) Can I flash both kernel and rom through fastboot, or should I flash kernel first, reboot, and then flash rom through recovery? Which is safest?

Thanks in advance for your inputs :)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] KristianKenneth:
Seriously I'm bored, I went to Stock to CM7 to MIUI to Stock ICS in half a day then I returned to Stock ROM again.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] geekoo:
Oh I know your feeling... I was as bored when I had my G1. I went through 5 ROMs in 2 days and hard bricked it at the end of the 2n day fooling around with radios and bootloaders.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] KristianKenneth:
I suggest you need to unlock your bootloader tru test point method so you won't encounter problems in the future. As per radios, no, AFAIK there is no radios to mess around. You need to flash kernel first specific to rom and put rom to sd card and flash tru cwm. Its the only way so far. Its a good start to read the thread of hansip first, it is sticky to get an overview.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] holst75:
[Q] instal ROM unlooked bootloader?

Can I instal a custom ROM with out unlook the bootloader? if YES how to do it?

/Patrik
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] KristianKenneth:
AFAIK the rom posted here requires custom kernel thus unlocked bootloader is needed
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] geekoo:
I have a totally stock phone with the latest .62 firmware. I have the bootloader unock key with me. Once I unlock the bootloader, can I directly flash a custom kernel from fastboot?

Would that work, or is there a chance of a brick? Once I flash a custom kernel, I could start with the zergrush exploits, right?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Bazonga:
I THINK, the most custom kernels are already rooted?

But just to be sure, I would start with zegrush rooting and then installing a custom kernel. :)

EDIT: I just read that with .62, the zegrush exploit doesn't work anymore, but I'm pretty sure custom kernels are rooted ;)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Robottoe:
Hey guys new here, will i be able to update to the latest ICS if i unlock my bootloader and rooting the phone? I mean the official ICS update around Q1 this year. Will unlocked bootloader and rooted phone haywire the official update?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] hansip87:
if you do it officially, yes it will brick your device. But if you use test point method. It won't brick :)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] geekoo:
What is the best way to downgrade the official .62 to the .42 release?

I'd like to try the more common zergrush method rather than the complicated .62 method

--
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] chiefy009:
But you will still be able to flash the ftf of ics and a kernel using flashtool without bricking the phone surely?

sent from my gorgeus Xperia Ray
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] hansip87:
All of the methods actually still use a computer so i'm not sure there's an easier way than loading FXP kernel for a while just for rooting the .62 firmware via temporary CWM.

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

Yeah but it's kinda "Hey there's an official ICS ROM OMGOMGOMGOMG I MUST UPDATE!!! O wait, my bootloader is unlocked officially.. Must wait for a while :((" thing.. :p
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] chiefy009:
I would rather wait for a while. The ftf would be made in no time.

Mine is unlocked officially I will be patient

sent from my gorgeus Xperia Ray
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Robottoe:
So is best that i just wait for the official update and dont do anything? since im a newbie lol
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] hansip87:
Use Test point method, you won't regret by transforming Ray to Ray S.. ;) and you should not be worried about bricking your device.. :)
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Robottoe:
Haha i just saw the point test method, apparently dont have the tools to do that yet :/ . Thought i manage to root and make it into the " Ray S " but that was before i update to firmware .62 ...
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] KristianKenneth:
The easiest way is to unlock your bootloader. I hope you used the testpoint method since I've been hearing a lot of phone bricks thru the official method.

If your bootloader is unlocked, just install custom kernel, i suggest for stock, use the one by aire. CWM is pre installed so you just need to download the xperiaroot.zip and flash it. boom device is rooted.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Bazonga:
Why flashing the xperiaroot zip? Isn't aire's kernel pre-rooted?
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] KristianKenneth:
Yeah, but it's weird cause when I changed my ROM to stock ICS and revert back to Aire's kernel and repack rom, there is no root but CWM is working so I copied the xperiaroot.zip and flash it and the root is back. So I added this suggestion just in case.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] *boy*racer*:
I didn't think you can unlock the bootloader via flash tool? Only official way (Sony website) or test point method. But I could be wrong.

All I suggest is try a different method to unlock your rays bootloader.
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Knight47:
I didn't unlock via flashtool i checked in which mode my ray is connected.

I BOUGHT MY RAY ABOUT 1 MONTH AGO.AT THAT TIME IT WAS WITH .62 FIRMWARE SO I USED FLASH TOOL TO FLASH .42 FIRMWARE AND USED Doom lord's ROOTING METHOD(zerg rush). success:):)

AFTER THIS I TRY TO UNLOCK BOOTLOADER MY RAY IN S1 TOOLS-SUCCESS.. BUT I CANT ACCESS IN FASTBOOT MODE(BLUE LED) FLASH TOOL SAID THAT MY DEVICE IS CONNECTED IN FLASH MODE....I DON'T KNOW WHY...THEN I FLASHED MY FIRMWARE TO .62 AND TRY TO FOLLOW THE GUIDE IN SONY.COM-but still "waiting for device"

I tried S1 tools and official method

***solved-I tried on another computer.Now I'm able to flash kernels:D:D
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] *boy*racer*:
Maybe reboot your pc and try putting in fastboot mode again? If that don't work, then I'm out of ideas

Sorry
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] desev:
Is there an app that allow me choose when I want to turn on and turn off my notifications led? Or just turn off it
[Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini, Mini Pro, Xperia Pro, A] Knight47:
I re-installed my windows and tried again but..no use