yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
This has been said before, so it'd be nice if people actually read the thread before replying so things don't have to be repeated.

On the iPAD, most mainstream Flash enabled sites would be accessible through an iOS APP. So IT DOESN'T MATTER if they don't have Flash.

There is no comparable equivalent on the Android platform. If you can't access the Desktop Flash website, you CAN'T FALL BACK TO an ANDROID APP, cause (almost) NO ONE CARES ABOUT making ANDROID APPs.

Please read my previous post link in this thread about the APP-ification of the WEB for mobile devices.

And understand the logic that given a choice between creating iOS APP or Android APP, it is obvious iOS APP would be chosen for development due to their (APPLEs) market share.

You should come to the same conclusion as me, or if not, please provide a rational rebuttal, I'd like to hear it.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] SilverHedgehog:
I keep hearing this "Flash is dying and will be replaced soon" for years now.

And yet I still end up visiting sites that use Flash almost everyday.

Also Flash works just fine on my devices...
[Eee Pad Transformer General] TrailorParkKid:
It's not that no one cares, it's that there was not a need for them, because (gasp)

Android uses Flash.

Honestly, I think it will suck for a little bit while the web design community slowly migrates to a more universal language (HTML5?), but I don't agree with your prediction of an APPified Internet. In fact I see it as a reason for just the opposite to happen.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] AlexTheStampede:
Fine, if you try to say I might not be very web savvy, let's put things straight: if you need Flash to watch a video, ANYTHING that parses the page code to grab the URL of the video itself. So far, even if not always generic but a bit specialized, I found software to do it on every os: OSX, Windows, Android, iOS... Again, sometimes it's specific for some sites (like Megavideo). It doesn't mean it works always, for example for sites like Hulu and so on are most likely not going to give any useful result this way.

That option to enable on request Flash has been an experiment for me, to see actually how much I need it. Turns out, it mostly blocks ads, and forces me to click to watch YouTube.

With no Flash at all I'd lose also a bunch of games, mostly simple stuff that barely runs in low quality on any mobile chipset. Most notably Nacaca crash, I think it requires Flash 7 to run. You know, just pointing out how useless it is on mobile devices for anything different from video.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
Except they've been saying that for a long time.

With Flash still in the desktop equation, what makes you think anything will change?

Better yet, given the momentum of iOS and their APPs, what makes you think Android will survive long enough to see that day?

Interesting read on Appification of web

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/08/ff_webrip/all/1
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
yes, much of the concern here is for video, which has become a large part of the internet experience.

also, i'd like to know why some people are down voting this thread.

it cant be due to poor argument in the OP, seeing as there is yet to be a compelling counter argument.

so its probobly cuz someone doesnt like hearing about reality, prefering the safety of their own little paradise inside their head. yes, of course, cuz killing the messenger really stops the opposing army from arriving, doesnt it?
[Eee Pad Transformer General] bong4316:
What message?

That quadcores have become useless because OMG flash is gone?

I dont want to be sarcastic but you getting on your high horse and saying they are shooting you, the messenger for saying something that is really illogical, what were you expecting?

Apple's iDevices never wanted flash but why did they go dualcore and even quadcore graphics (ipad 2)?

So you see just because mobile flash dies doesnt mean hardware has to die also.

In all reality, its gaming thats driving the need for more hardware.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] sontin:
I never played a flash game on my Transformer. But i unpacked a 2GB archive and used the internet at the same time. QuadCore is great because android allowed me to use so much at one time that even a Dualcore is not enough.

So while flash was used in the past it's not the #1 reason why we need Quadcores.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
here we're seeing the Android OS in eminent peril due to the appification trend and you're still fixated on a word in the title?

The question of quadcore necessity is the least of our worries here at the Android camp, it's clear the discussion has moved towards questioning the relevance of the entire Android OS.

Most people,use tablets for web surfing and if there is no longer any access advantage of getting the desktop experiencefrom things like flash, why buy Android? That was one large deciding factor for most people.

Android gaming alone, which isnt even a fraction of the iOS gaming market share, isnt going to keep hardware manufacturers interested in investing on the Android platform.

so read the title as = Android USELESS if itmakes you happier, for god sake
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
and for gaming, why would you buy android over ipad given that there are more games, and everything else on ipad?

benchmarks actually show ipad2 is better than tegra2.

i didnt buy my transformer just for games, not even a deciding factor, so explain the logic of buying android over ipad based on gaming? non-sense.

now given tegra 3 is out,you can bet ipad 3 will sport a quad core as well. so hardware is same. Android has no hw advantage.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] slient:
Compare this with Windows and MacOS...

Windows had a way bigger advantage in terms of applications and games

So why did people still prefer MacOS?

Because it offers different experience if Windows isn't exactly your cup of tea

Similarly, we're allowed to have different preferences for a mobile OS!

iOS might have more games but what if, god forbid, someone just doesn't like the way iOS works?

We buy products that fit our specific needs and apparently, enough people prefer Android for there still to be a market for it
[Eee Pad Transformer General] ExploreMN:
I would give anything to be a mod on this site. I'm getting so sick and tired of people constantly coming on here to piss and moan about how their device sucks, their RMA experience sucks, this other device they didn't buy is better, etc.

If you don't like the Transformer, then GTFO. Sell it, return it, go buy your precious iPad with it's "superior" experience.

XDA Developers is a DEVELOPER forum, not a "I want to piss and moan because my Transformer creaks on the side and flash is going away and I get lag because I have 40 widgets running and no one makes apps for Android and Steve Jobs raped me once and I liked it" forum. FFS, no one put a gun to your head and told you to buy this thing. You made your choice and instead of regretting it and crying on here, either suck it up or do something about it besides tell us your sorry ass story.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
Why is it SOOO hard to find someone that can comment intellectually on an intellectual discussion?

I thought the "developer" forum was full of intellectual people that can counter arguments, point against point instead of acting like a macho man on the Internet. lol *face palm*

Believe me, I would be as happy as everyone to hear that Android is uneffected from this Flash issue. I don't want Android to lose, I want Android to WIN as much as anyone here. Partly because of the open philosophy, and Largely due to full desktop access to the Internet. (it's great for watching anime and chinese EPs that are Flash only)

So when I see some issues that lay ahead, I open them for discussion here, in hopes that either I'm mistaken or if I'm right, that someone will solve the problem.

I am on the Android side, but it doesn't mean I have to be fanboi that screams and lashes out at the 1st person that points out any flaws.

PS: It seems like some people here have a "With us or against US" mentality, for those people, go sleep with Bush in Texas. *face palm*
[Eee Pad Transformer General] ExploreMN:
Please do this to yourself MUCH harder. Ask yourself this question, what does all your pissing and moaning have to do with development? This, in my opinion, is not a forum for debate, intelligent or otherwise.

Plain and simple you and others like you are nothing but trolls and/or people who can't take responsibility for their own actions and decisions.

If you want to debate your preferences for products, head on over to Engadget. They love trolls over there and you can find them to support whatever product you like.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] philburkhardt:
I gave your thread 1 star because your attitude blows.

Who gives an eff what YOU bought YOUR transformer for.

Basically the purpose of this thread is for you to tell everyone how much you think you are right and they are wrong. Yippie, good for you. Since you are such a good analyst, you should go get paid for those skills! Don't waste your time on us noobs and idiots that don't agree with everything you have to say.

I DID buy my TF mainly for gaming, and have been totally happy with it in that regard. I don't like Apple products or ios, the logic is as simple as that.

Haha! Yeah, the title of your thread totally screams intellectual discussion.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] Spidey01:
You folks should chill and find something more productive to do with your bandwidth.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
Last time I checked, problem solving involves development.

So basically anyone who voices their concern about some aspect of a product is a troll. LOL Did Asus hire you for their marketing & propaganda division?
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
No one has a problem with YOU buying YOUR transformer for gaming. Who did you hear say there was a problem?

We here are talking about aggregate statistics of market share, not one person. Did it matter that some people bought a Palm PDA for gaming/pim? No because there weren't enough people and they went under.

Excuse me? Who is throwing around insults and acting abrasive here?
[Eee Pad Transformer General] philburkhardt:
Where did I say anything about a problem?? How are you supposed to keep up an intellectual conversation if you can't recognize when someone is responding directly to something you said? That was in response to your saying this:

"i didnt buy my transformer just for games, not even a deciding factor, so explain the logic of buying android over ipad based on gaming? non-sense."

The point of my response being that there are plenty of people out there that care more about gaming than web browsing. There are two of us right here in my home. AND that not everyone is willing to buy an ios product.

...and if you view someone telling you your attitude sucks as an insult, you have a lifetime of disappointment ahead of you my friend. If you thought I was abrasive,...well you set the tone in here.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] AlexTheStampede:
Fine, so be productive. Go found or help development of Gnash! Get yourself involved in the demis.... Solution of mobile browsing woes! It's GNU, runs on Linux, works on ARM. Android is a step away, if you think about it.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] Swiftks:
The title of this thread = stupidest thing I've ever read.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
My apologies if you were offended by my statement that most people buy iOS for mobile gaming over Android, which is supported by market stats.

And Again:

So everything is great in your world, since you have your gaming needs satisfied, but others aren't allowed to voice their issues since those issues aren't relevant to you, and voicing those issues makes their attitude suck. ok
[Eee Pad Transformer General] philburkhardt:
No, voice away. Just don't be an a** about it :).

..and I don't give a crap about market stats. There will always be a market for an ios alternative.

Edit: and btw, have fun with your discussion. You just made it on to my ignore list :)
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
So interpreting actual market stats with the reasoning behind it makes one an ass...

ok, so you don't care about market stats probably because you think it doesn't affect you.

But how do you feel about hardware manufacturers and software developers finding iOS market more lucrative for profits and thus don't support your platform of choice? So that application you bought on the Android Market is no longer updated regularly compared to the iOS version, or your favorite manufacturer stops R&Ding for this platform?

Would you place a bet that there will always be room for two major OSes on the mobile device market? I saw what happened to the all powerful Windows Mobile platform, much more flexible and hackable than Android, less user friendly sure, but it died against iOS. Another example, POWERFUL flexible MP3 players, essentially dead with no accessories support, after iPODs came. I don't want the same to happen here.

I am looking long term here, for the sake of Android, I want Android to be the MAINSTREAM not the niche market so we have more support and options.

Anyone who loves Android would too.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] slient:
Why do you have the impression that Android is dying? Android still has a lot of momentum going.

And even if iOS dominates, it's still exclusive to Apple hardware, so as long as there's a competing company out there, Android will survive as a viable alternative to iOS and hardware manufacterers will still be supporting and producing a variety of products.

If you really want to support Android go be a developer or something

Arguing here is pretty pointless
[Eee Pad Transformer General] klau1:
I hope you're right, I've seen too many good products fade away due to a competing iProduct.

As far as advantage goes, open architecture, external memory and desktop web access seems to be Android's easily quantifiable attributes. And now, it seems, 1/3 balloons have popped from Android's Kart.

Well, even weren't up on the neck with my other obligations, one extra developer isn't exactly going to sway the market over.

I was more aiming for someone to say, "oh, no worries, Adobe Flash is just being replaced by Adobe XXXX, which is the future, and is completely backwards compatible so you won't notice any difference on the web" or "actually the desktop Flash is also being decommissioned next month so everyone will be on HTML5 with H.264 HW acceleration by next year" lol guess not
[Eee Pad Transformer General] dburckh:
Couple of things to note.

Flash is single threaded. Quad core=no better performance than a single core.

Android as a phone OS is growing faster than iOS. So, it's not dying. ICS is going to bring a defacto standard of video standard of 1280x720, which will help. IMHO, the biggest threat to Android is Windows 8. The good news is that in most technology spaces, there is room for 2 or 3 competing platforms (e.g. PS3, Xbox, Nintendo).

HTML 5 is no where near ready for prime time. There is no real Flash replacement other than apps. The browsers probably won't be ready for HTML 5 until HTML 6 is out.

If you even could write an HTML app that did what Flash does, the Flash would run rings around it.

As a past and present Flash/Flex developer I would like to point out that Flash still has some advantages of HTML.

For complex apps, Flash is faster. That's why anything that's not simple form entry is done in Flash or written as a mobile app.

Flash is write once, run anywhere. Anybody who's written HTML understands that every browser is different. HTML 5 doesn't fix this issue.

Flash has a strongly typed language. Javascript is primitive in comparison.

Ironnicly, neither Flash nor HTML was originally intended to be used to develop apps. Both have to some level been twisted to do this. I see this as one of the primary reasons mobile apps have been so successful.

The sky is not falling, Amazon is giving the Android tablet world a shot in the arm (to the tune of 5 million android devices in 2 months).
[Eee Pad Transformer General] russ18uk:
The question as to whether Android will die due to no Flash: half the devices don't have flash support anyway without some chopped up buggy porting so why haven't these mediocre midrange phones not died off? Because flash isn't the reason people will buy a phone.

Now onto whether apps will be created. I can browse websites perfectly fine. In fact most of the apps created for Android are diabolically bad or have their own browser integrated which is worse than stock our dolphin in most cases. Case in point: Lloydstsb app doesn't save my login when I select to save. And also YouTube, as started, does not continue a playlist. And then Facebook... List goes on.

What we will see, as we have been seeing the past year, are websites with a mobile version. Some of these are poor: wikipedia doesn't allure me to side scroll to view images that go wide. But then there are sites like BBC mobile which are excellent.

Should we be worried? Short term, maybe. Long term: trends will show more migration to dual view. With no flash there will be more motivation not to create apps but to make mobile versions of websites which work universally on all devices rather than develop for 4 different operating systems.

So why are you all so worried?
[Eee Pad Transformer General] raze1000:
Very good points.

I have done a few websites myself and I would rather code it in html than flash any day of the week. Just need to get studying html5 now.

I think web developers are very much aware of the huge mobile base that they would be foolish not to design a site with that in mind.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] Digitaldreamer7:
Flash? What is this flash you speak of? I've blocked all flash in my browser for years now.... I think the world will be a safer place without it. Good riddance and hello HTML5!

Edit: The reason I won't be getting a quad-core tablet isn't because it's not compatible with flash.... IT"S BECAUSE I HAVE A QUAD CORE DESKTOP I CAN USE. Why the hell do I need a quad core tablet? I'll upgrade when the community dies out or my tablet dies.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] clouds5:
I think its only the beginning of the end for flash. There is a lot of content out there in flash. It will take time (like 2-3 years i guess) until everything runs without it. Right now there is a lot of use for flash capable tablets. IMHO.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] evred:
I must be missing something, I don't even have flash installed, never bothered installing it on my desire hd eithet!
[Eee Pad Transformer General] wynand32:
Ah, if only Amazon were using ICS (or even Honeycomb)... There's not much advantage to 5 million Fires sold if they're all going to be running essentially Gingerbread phone apps.

Note, however, that I'm not in the "Android tablet market is doomed" camp. I think it's actually doing well, and will continue to do so particularly as prices fall. When a decent ICS tablet can be had for $299 (which will happen in 2012, mark my words), bracketed by the Fire/Nook Tablet on the low end and awesome devices like the TF Prime on the "high" end (which is still less expensive than the iPad 2), there's no way Android tablets won't do well.

And if Apple comes out with their own low-end device(s), then they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. Their entire business model is predicated upon selling very high-margin hardware. The minute their margins are cut to be competitive is the minute their stock plummets and they find themselves in trouble. They won't cut prices, meaning the iPad line will become the same sort of niche product that we see in PC with the Macbook line.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] thebadfrog:
I'm scared. Does this mean that with mobile flash ending that android will end as well?
[Eee Pad Transformer General] AlexTheStampede:
Isn't "niche" something that implies having a very specific and limited market, like say train simulators as opposed to casual games? Because if that's the definition, you used the term wrongly: both the iPad and the MacBook are the best selling of their kind (tablets and laptops, respectively). That's not a niche...
[Eee Pad Transformer General] wynand32:
Apple owns about 8% of the PC market. That's a niche. My prediction is that they could end up with about the same thing in tablets and phones (maybe not 8%, but not more than 25%, which might not be a "niche" but it also won't be a majority position as they now enjoy in tablets).

Bottom line is that it's very possible for the mobile market to go exactly as the PC market went--a single manufacturer making a limited line of relatively expensive devices can't win out over many manufacturers making hundreds of different lower-priced alternatives. I'm not saying the mobile market _will_ go that route--so far, Apple's managed to do what Microsoft did, that is, get developers to make tons of apps for their platform. However, Android is catching up in this department, and ICS should make it easier for developers to make apps for Android tablets.

Ultimately, I think that unless Android manufacturers keep killing themselves with some of the worst marketing I've ever seen (not just advertising, but also pricing, as Motorola did when they killed the Xoom), Apple will end up a niche player--that niche being high-priced, boutique mobile devices appealing primarily to the relatively wealthy consumer. Hell, already we see that Android is more popular among the younger crowd, which doesn't bode well for OS X.

To get this halfway back on topic, I'll add that I think ASUS is doing all the right things. The Prime is a crazy-good device (the recent hands-on seems to show it'll be as good in real life as it is on paper) that looks great and is priced right. If it gets any kind of decent marketing (at least some advertising, good shelf space competent and competent management of it, etc.), it should do quite well against the iPad.
[Eee Pad Transformer General] AlexTheStampede:
But no other brand sells as many units of a single model as Apple does. Can a best selling product be called niche? I see your reasoning, and it is correct... It's just that it doesn't convince me.

That said, Android's future is still bright with or without Flash. More power means better looking games, faster video encoding, better multi tasking, faster browsing and so on.

Also if Tegra 4 will be as powerful as Nvidia says... Well, low end laptops will be threatened. I know my Transformer replaced an Atom powered Acer!
[Eee Pad Transformer General] thebadfrog:
Gosh I feel much better now. THX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Eee Pad Transformer General] dburckh:
You are giving them too much credit. Apple just hit 7% last quarter in the PC market. They are rising 1-2% a year though.

To put it into perspective Android took 20% of the tablet market in less than a year. If they include Fire, that number will probably grow. Asus estimates 1.2M sold, that's about 3% of the market (estimated 30M) in less than a year. Not too shabby for a brand that most people haven't heard of.

I don't like it, but Apple has huge momentum and from a tablet perspective, everybody does Apple first. Now, with ICS phones and tablets are escentially the same. That means we'll get "tablet" apps faster because there is only one target. That's something Apple can't claim. Ironiclly, they've fragmented themselves, which is there biggest dig on Android. I suspect they'll further fragment themselves with iPad 3. The only other possiblity would be a 2048x(768x2) resolution.

The down side of Fire is that it's another target and I suspect it will easily be the best selling "Android" tablet and it will be targetted first. Long live gingerbread. :) I have my hopes that the rumors of the Fire 10" are true and it will be Honeycomb or ICS.