yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
I do not believe I am missing that. Let us rewind to the beginning.

November 2010, a bunch of Windows Phones launch. None launch on the biggest network in the US (Verizon). The ones that do launch (ATT) do not have a particularly good start. Pretty much the same picture worldwide as well.

Let us freeze frame right here. When Windows Phone launched, the general attitude towards it in here was lukewarm. A minority bought into it and loved it immediately. Some who came from the WM world hated the limitations and lack of features they grew used to (like activesync) or the openness they thought it would be (cooking roms). Then the rest just could not stand all the missing features and apps they grew accustomed to from the Android/iOS offering.

Look, all the wonderful marketing in the world would not have made Windows Phone an instant hit then, and that fact is still true (but less so) now. The most true thing the WP critics said then was Windows Phone was not ready yet. Microsoft did not have a choice, but it was not ready yet. It grew fast in the app catalogue and kudos to Microsoft for that. Handset offering is good (not great). But the point still remains this today:

Why would the average consumer abandon Android and iOS for a Windows Phone? For the tiles?

That is why Windows Phone is not doing well. The iPhone is well marketed. The carriers push Android. You really believe if the HTC Titan 2 was pushed as much as the SGS3 it would sell as well? I guarantee it would not. I am a WP supporter but I think I am realistic. Today is not our day. Tomorrow will be. Microsoft finally had the lightbulb turn on. Microsoft Windows 8 can drive people to the Xbox and Windows Phone. But I do wish they would bring back activesync capabilities. Can you imagine sharing emails, multimedia, and apps with your pc and your smartphone seamlessly?
[Windows Phone 7 General] ablahblah:
^agree, WP7 just didn't come in at the best time imo. I really hope Microsoft can pull something in the future with their advantages in XBOX Live, Office, Windows, and Skydrive integration. I'm starting to see the point of the whole integrating thing, cloud computing is working wonders with my music collection and synchronization among desktop, laptop, and phone. Just wondering whether they have anything planned in the future regarding WP7/WP8.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
hmm, you discredit marketing being the biggest issue but then list a bunch of reasons which ultimately come down to marketing.

at launch WP was slated as not being ready because essentially it didn't conform to what expectations were, ie ios, android and WM, thus the perception was poor from the start, had MS pulled out apples reality distortion fields and funky level of marketing combined with loading the public with a sense of expectation then it wouldn't have fallen flat

even today you can speak to a bunch of android fans and ask them why they don't like WP and at some point during the conversation they will say something that is completely wrong, they do this because of perception. Perception is everything, even in life, its not what you do or say its how your perceived.

Ultimately WP was perceived to be too different to the norm,

graphically challenged,

boring,

poor app support (flip side is that it didn't need a lot of apps out of the box to achieve what it set out to do, bur out of the box was never measured),

evil (its made by MS and given that most of the tech sites are run by techy folk and the more they like Linux the more MS is seen as the anti Christ)

that's just a few but each one nailed down a negative perception of WP and thus marketing comes in to play. or not as the case was,

All it takes is the odd person here an there to mention something inaccurate then someone else to turn around and say "reviews are starting to be negative" then you end up with a snowball effect, all, if you go back far enough, stem from a lack of understand of what WP was and thus how it was perceived

MS never tried to change the perception of WP it was never cool an funky, it was never going to appeal to the masses especially because many of the people who write reviews had a idea what WP SHOULD be like, and until it met that, it was never going to be "ready"

Ultimately, Marketing failed to be effective in conveying what WP was and changing the perception of MS products.
[Windows Phone 7 General] sitizenx:
It's a dirty game

That is phucking diabolical. Bookmarked it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dtboos:
Thanks for the correction. The point was that some people constantly slam WP for not having a huge number of apps and compare the number of apps to ecosystems with many years head start. Its barely 1 year old. This is getting old.

I personally think the number of apps in the market, and the number of features they got in place in the first year are both fantastic, and I am very excited for Nokia and Windows 8, and what they both mean for the future of Windows Phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Gosh,

Where to start, they already said there is absolutely no plans for windows phone and windows 8 to integrate. Look it up or I will later on. The only thing the two will have in common is looks, that's it. Not even the same code! Research it.

Apps matter. They mean a lot! You're living in a fantasy if think 30k is great. Want to know real numbers, Android has over 500k app submissions, IOS over 600k. Look it up.

Does your bank make a WP7 app? I guarantee you they make a IOS app, and a Android app. Can you scan a check with your phone and have it deposited into your account? Unlock your car? Check your security cams? Apps matter.

How about those app updates? How is that going?

How many millionaire's have been made from the WP market?

Samsung is outselling Nokia, so stop thinking Nokia is the saviour. Melteme is what Nokia will really be pushing. Who knows, maybe they'll ditch that too.

I'm just putting out the facts, you guys need to wake up. Take out your opinions and look at the facts.

Before Nodo, it was wait until Nodo gets here. Stuff will pick up. Nah, wait until Mango gets here, it'll pick up. Nah, we need some more new devices, wait on Nokia.... yeah we need Nokia, and wait on Windows 8. Then stuff will really pick up. Boy o boy. Lets just keep waiting.

Wake up people.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Whatever, guy. Don't get so intense. Just making comments that 30,000 apps is a huge number for under a year. And WP7 has already surpassed iOS in almost every way. The only thing iOS has WP7 doesn't, that I can think of, is screen capture function. But iOS doesn't have a decent OEM voice nav so it evens out. The only thing I have a hard time with, and only because WP7 was sold to me with them as a regular occurrence, is the updating system, or actually lack of.

Stop and smell the roses. WP7 smells beautiful now. Those apps you mentioned? Once WP7 catches on fire and spreads, they will come.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ragnarokx:
I've never used a Windows phone of any generation. Started on Blackberry (because I didn't know any better) and am now on Android. Had an iPod Touch which is basically an iPhone. This thread made me realize I should check out WP7. Will do so next time I'm in the store. You've reached one person :)

Sent from my Google Nexus S
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
See what I mean. That's totally fine with me, I respect your opinion Marty.

It exceeds in every way.

However I have a question for you all. I got it off the webs:

How long will Microsoft let two entire product divisions work on incompatible versions of essentially the same product?(windows phone 7 and windows 8) Why not just take the Windows 8 UI and move it onto phones?(ARM version of W8)

Answer that and you will see the position WP7 is in.

Apple is doing it, Google is doing it. You can bet MS will do it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
I just saw a Kinect sports commercial on the Food Network. That is a way to increase Market penetration. Wait I'm kidding while not kidding. I don't watch much television but whenever I do I am seeing the commercial where the guy in the pinkish shirt is playing the XBox Dancing game, his daughter is recording it on her Windows Phone, uploading it to facebook and her brother sends it to everyone on his laptop. You know the problem with that commercial, in the end all it says is "It all starts with a Windows 7 PC.". Where the hell is the Windows Phone plug? I need to do their damn commercials.

I get upset because I watched MS let Android and Apple come out, lie about having new and revolutionary features when Windows Mobile already had most of them. The HTC Universal had a front facing camera circa 2005 or so, but the infrastructure didn't support front facing calls like it does now. Folders are now a big deal - really? What the ****?

When is Microsoft going to start advertising the real things these great phones do? Aaaah, when they give a damn about the mobile market. In fact it may be never because I think they don't care about phones and really are going to go after the tablet market with Windows 8 and hope the phones tag along. Still, I may be wrong there also.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ I just saw that commercial. Did you see the one about "Why I should have a dog". Its great.

Another question, besides Nokia, don't you find it odd that the only OEMs still making WP7 devices are the ones that have settled MS lawsuits?
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Would you consider MS spending several billion dollars to partner with Nokia giving a damn? Seriously, even MS, as rich as they are, wouldn't spend that much green unless they really cared.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RoboDad:
Well, it doesn't quite even out, since you can download the free MapQuest voice navigation app for iOS. Unfortunately, there are no APIs available to third party developers for a screen capture app for WP7 (not that there should be - Microsoft should have included that capability as a built-in feature on day one).

Most customers aren't going to stop and smell the roses. They are going to buy phones today that can do the things, and run the apps, that they need (or perceive that they need) today. Not a day goes by that I don't hear at least 3 commercials on the radio, and see at least one more on television, advertising a new free app for iOS and Android. People notice those things, and if they perceive that some of those apps are important to them, they will expect their phone to run them.

I kind of agree with you on the update issue, but I've been willing, up to now, to cut them some slack. I know that it is a more complicated issue to update all of the WP7 devices, given the mix of handset makers and carriers involved.
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
Here is what is really crazy. The comments. If Apple or Google were to give a concert with a very popular band it's awesome and a great bit of marketing as they connect with their core users. Yet, when Microsoft does the same, it's a lame attempt at getting people to know about their products? The hypocrisy is beyond incredible through out the tech world when it comes to how Microsoft is addressed and reviewed. Personally I'm just done with it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
But what I mean about the decent voice nav is integration. It is perfectly integrated in WP7 where you can bring up the voice activation search and go right into voice nav. And it works so beautifully in WP7. You can add a voice nav app in iOS, and I currently have MapQuest and Garmin On-Demand and none of them will integrate like the OEM voice nav in WP7. It is so convenient and fluid and simple in WP7 that it makes me want to smooch my damn Focus.

As far as the WP7 visibility, MS took a long time to get the XBOX brand name up and recognized. But now the XBOX leads the way ahead of even the mighty Sony Playstation.
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
I do, except how much advertising is going to occur previous to and while the phones hit the market? I understand that Nokia is building better relationships with the US carriers this time around and that is suppose to increase in store product placement and carrier advertising / specials, but at this point I'll believe it when I see it.

I also understand the Microsoft is giving millions to HTC and other companies to advertise Windows Phones, but I'm yet to see commercials and I wonder of the quality and repetition they will actually push. There is no hype around these products and sadly, that is a necessity to get this generations attention. We live in a society where Kim Kardashian made 10+ million off televising her marriage. I'm not a fan of what is necessary to be successful, but I am definitely aware of it. Hopefully Microsoft and their OEM's are also. Especially here in the States.

BTW - as of yesterday there is a screen capture application. Just saying. I have many gripes, but 30,000+ applications on the official market isn't a joke. Also Android doesn't come with contact groups standard (don't know about Iphone), but WP does with Mango. That is something we should be seeing commercials for by Microsoft. That's all Apple does, make a damn commercial about one feature and makes it look fantastic.

---------- Post added at 10:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

The Garmin StreetPilot application is niiiiiiiiiice. I am talking visually and audibly. It integrates perfectly with local scout and the bing maps in WP. My wife's Android (LG G2X) has Google Maps integrated. The mapping part is stellar, but the voice is so bad she begged me to put Bing on her phone. We found a Naviteck or something application and it works better but no where as well as the Garmin Street Pilot for WP7.5.
[Windows Phone 7 General] TechJunkiesCA:
I saw this display at Best Buy in Porter Ranch, CA. Not only is it fake, the phone is broken!!! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...43928597973.2149393.1246485290&type=3&theater
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Yeah, I'm want Street Pilot for iPhone, but have no income yet to acquire it. The cheapest I see it is $30. On-Demand was on sale about a week ago, along with a slew of other apps, for $1. So I picked it up. So far, what I can tell, it seems to be decent. It doesn't have any OS integration like WP7 does. But even if I had the dough for SP, I would have a hard time justifying it since my Focus is fully satisfying for navigation purposes. That's all I've been using is my Focus. My iPhone feels like a stepchild now.

I did pick up the GPS-ON Turn by Turn Navigation for WP7 a week or two ago for 5 smacks. Very nice nav app. And it lets me download maps for offline use. They are super huge files, but still I can use it offline.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Aphasaic2002:
I think it's explained all right here. In a phone shop, sales people work on commission - they get money for every sale they make. Therefore sale staff will push the phone that makes *them* or their shop the most money.

It's clear from the above and other poster's experiences that Android must make the most (up to 12x more comission than iPhone in the US), as it's pushed hard in shops. It's also been reported on here that sales-people are reluctant to try and sell customers WP7 devices due to high return rates of early models (for a return they lose all commission).

If WP7 were making them 10x more than iPhone they would be all over you to buy it, but it's obviously not. The fact that they got a free WP7 from Microsoft makes no difference to this.

From your signature you're obviously a Windows Phone 7 owner; why didn't you show her yours, and sell it to her yourself?

Fact is she was probably sold on the IPhone before she went in the shop via marketing + word of mouth; sales people wouldn't have made much difference anyway.
[Windows Phone 7 General] spokanedj:
When AT&T was lagging/behind on their Android sales, they *REQUIRED* their sales people to turn in their current AT&T supplied phones (mostly iPhones) to get an Android phone. This prevented the scenario outlined where the sales people where just trying to get new phones and not use them.

One of my best friends works at AT&T and after being forced to use a couple of Android phones, he's currently sticking with one of them over his beloved iPhone. So I guess the "you must use this" does work to atleast a limited degree.

I asked him about selling WP7. He has an HTC Surround and even though he liked it, it cited lack of a couple apps as the primary reason for not sticking with it. He did admit that he tries it out every once in a while, but eventually goes back to either his iPhone or Android. He has not seen Mango or used it on his phone. He also said one of the reasons that he doesn't push WP7 is that they have a higher than average return rate. He said he didn't know why, but thats what he has seen.

I'm a very big supporter of WP7, with four in my household.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Now if that's true (he's not confusing WP7 with WM, is he?) then WP7 really may have a problem because no amount of sales rep training will change anything if consumers are actively rejecting the platform.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
WP7 surpassed iOS? In every way?

That's funny. I mean WP7 has it's great aspects without a doubt,

but surpassing? Sorry, just 3 examples:

iOS gives possibility of having great 3rd party Office apps, surpassing WP7 native (and only) Office in functionality

iOS allows Opera Mini

iOS has much more profi oriented apps in the Market.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Peew971:
What Microsoft needs to do is come to forums like this and recruit people who know what they're talking about. Of course the hard work is not getting people who would just be like "WP7 rulez, android and iPhone are sh*t" but it's a good place to start :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
HTC makes computers? Amazon signed one to cover the Kindle, if they do for the Fire what exactly will your point be? The reason why some people refuse to sign a licensing deal is MS is charging unfair rates to do so, not because its infringement claims are not legit.

Just like how WP supporters are kidding themselves, you are as well. So WP will never take off and it is doomed?

The OS is one year old. It was unrealistic to believe suddenly the OS would be neck and neck with iOS in marketshare. That does not mean WP will fail. Vet, you will never be able to judge WP fairly. You poured your heart and soul into WinMo and MS abandoned you. It will always be dead in your books. Somewhere along the way you will have to move on.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Aphasaic2002:
I now believe WP7 hasn't taken off because it's a pointless product; a solution looking for a problem is a very crowded market.

If buyers want a smooth easy to use experience, they buy IPhone.

If buyers enjoy tweeking ROMs and having the latest hardware, they buy Android.

If buyers want a nice keyboard for email and SMS, they buy Blackberry.

Where does WP7 fit into the above? All the main niches are filled and it has no stand-out features (Metro UI doesn't count, it's not a big enough difference).

WP7 is still seriously behind on features (we still can't backup the data on our phones?!), behind on hardware, behind on business integration (despite Microsoft owning Exchange - WTF?), behind on apps (I recently saw Draw Something on the news - you can buy that kind of publicity), and it's about to be replaced with WP8. Why would the average buyer purchase these phones? Of course it's also making the carriers less money than other brands, so they don't push it.

For WP8 to be competitive, it needs cutting edge hardware and several BIG new exclusive OS features; tie-ins with Windows 8 and Xbox. This MS announcement on June 18th better be good.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
Android because its percieved as open and Cheap

iOS because its percieved as cool

Blackberry because its percieved as a "Business" or a "professional" phone

WP is percieved as lacking in most aspects COMPARED to the others, its rarely given credit based on its own merits
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ineedtoys:
Don't be, it was a rubbish joke anyway! :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] thebobp:
Did you miss the part when he said:

Yes, he said some other things. But essentially, the advantages didn't really kick in until he stopped using the phone; this is not indicative of a paragon, and implies there is still a problem in the lack of features.

Er, do you know many ROMs I've flashed in the last two months? You're arguing from a position of ignorance here (and you're practically saying that it's impossible to know drugs are addicting unless you're an addict yourself).

You're also arguing something that's beside the point. My claim was never that lack of custom ROM flashing was a disadvantage of WP (though it is), but rather that presence of custom ROM flashing is not a disadvantage of Android - assuming you have a little personal responsibility, of course.

There have been way too many people trying to blame, not the drug, but, weirdly enough, the government for legalizing it. This, to me, makes no sense.

Why do you think I'm here if I can't see the benefits? Obviously to be attacked by devoted strawmen.
[Windows Phone 7 General] zlayaa:
I have to agree with what you say after overhearing a seller yesterday. The customer asked the salesman for a fast and easy to use phone, the salesman headed over to the Galaxy S3 and showed it. The customer was kind of impressed but he found the phone a bit too expensive so he asked for a cheaper phone. The salesman just stared at him and said "no no, let me show you" and headed over to some cheap, crappy Android phone. Right beside it was the Lumia 800, the customer asked the salesman about it, as I guess he noticed the price (300€, half of the Galaxy S3). The salesman just shook his head and headed back to the Galaxy S3 and got it sold..
[Windows Phone 7 General] thebobp:
Supposedly AT&T was supposed to be pushing the Lumia out of desire for a third competing ecosystem. But it seems their reps weren't trained enough for that.

What's surprising, however, is the impression that the reps seemed to be going for the iPhone, first and foremost, contradicting your link's predictions. (While your link deals with Verizon, I've seen similar postings here concerning AT&T.)

The most likely motivation behind that (since it's not commission) is that the iPhone is simply the easier sell. They'd rather give you a good, non-confusing first impression and have you walk out with an iPhone, than nothing at all. The reps are also most familiar with it, thus most comfortable selling it.

As such, it seems the iPhone's networking effects extend even to the carriers' salespeople.

(I'd hate to say it, but a feature that would've been very useful, in terms of first impression, is backgrounds. I have no idea why those weren't prioritized.)
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ineedtoys:
No I didn't miss it. But unlike you I understood it. He didn't stop using the phone. He moved on from playing and fiddling with it for its own sake. Obviously you missed (or more correctly, deliberately ignored ('he said some other things', yadayadayada)). He, like most WP7 users, uses it as an utterly effective and efficient communication device to complement and assist his daily life - not to divert attention from it.

Why would I need to know? I was merely responding to the opinion you gave, which was that "ROM flashing was addicting(sic)", and that you couldn't understand how a stock ROM could meet basic needs.

Well you clearly have no intention of trying WP7 for yourself, you obviously have no respect for those who choose to use an operating system different to yours, you have yet to show any understanding of why they might do so or that it might be perfect for the way they run their lives, or why WP7 regularly matches iOS in users satisfaction surveys. and Yet you incessantly berate and challenge all those who state that WP7 works for them, in a forum devoted to WP7, on a thread which was at aimed firmly at "fellow WP7ers"http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18691413&postcount=1.

So frankly, I have no idea why you are still here other than pick arguments and troll.