yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] juzz86:
Deleted a few off-topic posts. Debate has been good so far guys, let's avoid the name-calling/'fanboyism' and such, and keep it going.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thebobp:
Are you just trolling at this point? I gave your question a descriptive answer, and all you can do is try to bash it for something I clearly was not saying it had?

As far as I'm concerned, an app without a "get me in bed with your mom" button is not "fully featured". (Indeed, how could one even give coherent meaning to that phrase, when there are always such new and exciting features to add!)
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
But every OS has some kind of shortcoming. We would never say iOS is not popular because of the lack of fully featured widgets because ultimately iOS is so popular.

You can be popular despite shortcomings because no OS is perfect. By talking about a Windows Phone app only does a,b,c,d but not e is an overanalysis. The average person is not checking for e. Nerds are.

My question is will Windows Phone become popular? Now I do not want to claim the IDC as gospel, but they have their reasons when they say Windows Phone will become the #2 in marketshare 4 years from now.
[Windows Phone 7 General] fatclue:
I think the IDC report makes sense ONLY if W8 delivers and consumers decide they want their mobile experience to be the same or close to their desktop experience. As a stand-alone OS, I don't see WP7 or Apollo gaining that much traction in that time frame. We can only hope.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Captpt:
I honestly think Windows phone still has a good shot at jumping up to #2 in 4 years BUT it's going to take some serious revamping of the UI, they have to give users more, MUCH MORE customization... I liked my old WP7 Focus but the UI got old and boring to me within a few months, I'm loving my Galaxy S2 but if WP8 comes out with some serious user friendly changes and was installed on a Galaxy S3 I'd be right in line to check it out(there are rumors of a WP8 Galaxy S3)..

What perplexes me is no doubt MS has the money, resources and developers to challenge all mobile phone OSs yet it seems they are moving at a incredibly slow pace in listening and redesigning their OS to what we the consumers want in a smartphone.... In my house we have 3 iPhones and my GalaxyS2 and I can tell you one thing for sure my next phone will not be a iOS phone, they're locked down tighter then a drum and that we know this will never change where with Windows Phones I still see a chance for them to serious challenge... Taking the best of ICS & WP8 and making it a phone OS would be a serious challenger... Right now WP7 just comes across as a smartphones for dummies and honestly I don't mean that to be taken rudely, believe me I'm not a fanboy of any phone or OS, I keep a open mind to all...
[Windows Phone 7 General] ahlMAR:
the only thing lacking on wp7 is the customization.

wp with customization like android and its speed from now would be the killer os :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] sitizenx:
For the billionth time iOS does not have the "customization like Andriod" and it is cleaning Andriod's clock with a phone with no LTE and a 3.5" screen. Obviously you can sell tens of millions of phones without "customization like Andriod." Please take a break from the geekdom of XDA and speak with the average consumer.

The most clearly identifiable issue with Windows Phone is the lackluster marketing.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Captpt:
I have to disagree, ios/Apple right off the bat have a large following of blind sheep who would stand in line to buy Apple toilet paper if they released it and another large group who go with the iPhone because they are told "it's the best" by the media and other iPhone users..

I had a WP7 phone and lack of customization WAS the #1 reason I got bored of it and left.. "Cleaning Android clock"? How can that be when Android recently topped the 50% of all phone OSs worldwide, leaving ios, WP7 and any other OS filling the other 50%.. Again I'm no Android fanboy, just starting facts..
[Windows Phone 7 General] morpheuszg:
Now I'm wondering why did you then buy a WP device, when you certainly knew it in the first place that this OS doesn't have the customization capability you may hoped for?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Captpt:
I was coming from a feature phone (Samsung Impression).. The WP7 Focus was my first smartphone and as I started I really liked it but after a few months the OS grew old to me.. Actually had more customization ability with the feature phone.

I still think MS has a shot at making some serious noise with its OS and I know you don't want you hear it but giving users the chance to customize their phones is key, pick up anyone's iPhone and the only difference between them is which icons/widgets are on each page.. Pick up my phone and there's no other one out there that looks or is setup like mine.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thebobp:
Apple is able to appeal to the "people who are too lazy/scared to change" segment, pretty much because they got there first. Similar phenomenon that gave Windows its marketshare (though not nearly as strong, obviously).

This appeal won't help WP at all, however: they have to already be using your product for it to apply. In order to actually attract and keep people, shiny features and customizations would be useful.
[Windows Phone 7 General] sitizenx:
It's the marketing

Sounds like Apple did some good marketing.

If I was running a business the tens of millions of iphones Apple has sold would be driving my decision making process a lot more than the opinion of one guy on a geeky internet forum.

Andriod fanbois trot out that little factiod every time a discussion about the success of an ecosystem is mentioned. The problem is Apple is on its way to become the first trillion dollar company. They are a cash flow juggernaut. Apple is selling MILLIONS of 3.5 inch screen, dual core, no LTE phones for $200 ON CONTRACT. Can andriod do that? No. Clock cleaned. Andriod can push out underpowered clunky handsets for peanuts and flood the market but that says nothing about their margins and overall business success.

Obviously Apple was not first. And plenty of people that never owned an apple product bought an iphone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thebobp:
Forgive me, you're quite right. The reality distortion field was so strong that even I was taken in for a moment.

But I think it is accurate to say that Apple's the first to grab a large market share of the class of smartphones that are currently most popular (i.e. stuff with one single touchscreen). And it's undeniable that they have a fairly large market share (at least in the US) even now. Thus, the strategy of familiarity and incremental, featureless updates works for them - but not for the guy that doesn't already have the market share.

Networking effects (if enough people around you have a certain product, you're more likely to get it as well, due to familiarity and compatibility) which also don't apply for the upstart.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ineedtoys:
Clearly then you have never walked into a phone store and seen the point of sale material and product layout with the iPhone at the front, and 'minority' platforms (WP7, and WebOS) pushed to a dark corner at the back. Or talked to a 'sales' rep who will divert all the conversation to why you are wrong and they are right, and you need the handset on which they (or their store) gets the most commission. Add to that the (admittedly attractive) Apple shiny-shiny styling and a "everybody's getting/got them" spin and it's an easy, safe sell.

Price. In percentage terms very few users can afford (or want to pay for or carry) a £500 phone on a £40/month 2 year contract. Worldwide most handsets are cheap/mid range phones on low cost or PAYG contracts - hence why Nokia still feature near the top of worldwide league tables.

For many that opt for top-end Android hardware, the first part of that decision process (even if unspoken) is to rule out an iPhone (either because they don't want to be a "sheep" or find iOS or the hardware too limiting). In a similar vein. I think WP7 is the next stage from that - e.g. Android isn't attractive or looks too complicated, so let's look at a Windows Phone. By definition that keeps them as a back runner, especially when that is reinforced by the shop robots who's only programme seems to be "why would you want that? Get this!" (pointing at latest lucrative iPhone or SIII on an expensive long term contract)

Nice Freudian slip - presumably that means you are 'creating' new facts rather than stating existing ones! :) :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] Captpt:
You are spot on regarding how the iPhone is displayed up front when you walk in the store in our AT&T stores with a much more elaborate display then any other phone, but sure of this is the carrier's money being spent for these displays or Apple but it certainly has to effect sales making them more attractive to new consumers.

As for "creating new facts"please tell me where the newest statistics I've stated are wrong and"create"? Android DOES comprise well over 50% of all phone OSs worldwide leaving all others to fill the other 4x%..

http://www.pcworld.com/article/257065/global_mobile_phone_shipments_slowing_down.html

I guess I"created"this and all other reports you'll find on phone OS usage worldwide..
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ineedtoys:
Then you have little knowledge on how mobile stores, and staff reward schemes, operate.

Suppliers who pay the most for prominent PoS displays and shop floor/window square footage, or have exclusivity on a new range, are likely to pay the most in commission and will have the highest sales targets for their staff.

Also mobile phone retailers don't make money on handsets. They get nearly all their revenue from network contract "revenue share" based on the expected network billing over the term of the contract.

So naturally a store is going to push the phones that can only be obtained "free" on a 2 year £40/month contract (minimum network revenue £960 over contract term), from the supplier that offers the highest incentive and revenue share, rather than a handset available as £99 PAYG, or on a £10/month year-long contract.

Lighten up, it was nothing more than a linguistic joke on your finger slip, silly; 'started facts' vs. 'stated facts', geddit? The clue was in the little symbols at the end :rolleyes:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Captpt:
You're right I have very little knowledge of how mobile phone sites operate, I'm just a lowly firefighter of 30+ years, the business world is far from my fortey :)

And yes I completely missed your tongue in cheek comment, thought it was saying the point/facts were BS and made up.. I stand corrected and a bit embarrassed :o
[Windows Phone 7 General] fatclue:
Takes a big man to own up to a mistake, especially on these boards. But then again, you have enough cojones to go around being a FF. Be safe.
[Windows Phone 7 General] drokkon:
I was going to multi-quote a bunch of posts to enter the debate, but some of the Android users I was going to quote devolved in their discourse, so aren't really worth debating. So I'll just tell my story as a WP evangelist.

I've converted fully 9 people to WP:

5 came from feature phones

1 came from an Android phone

3 came from Blackberry phones

(I came from Windows Mobile)

Of the nine:

5 are on the original Focus

1 is on the Titan

2 are on the Radar

1 is on the Trophy

(I'm also on a Titan)

Of these 9 people, not one is disappointed in their WP. Not one would consider taking a step backwards to their last phone or laterally to a different platform. (The one exception is one of the Focus users, who came from a Blackberry, and who is a teenager. Before Mango came out, she was jealous of her friends' Android phones for ringtone purposes. Since Mango, she's been happy as a clam.)

My father came from Android, and his blood pressure has been down ever since. He has a short fuse, and Android ignited it daily. My mother is still on Android, and I deal with her questions CONSTANTLY, and she can't do much more than operate the basic functions of her phone.

Android users probably won't get this, but the customization argument is pretty moot. Basic users (including these 9 converts) turn on their phone to accomplish a task. Simple is good, and if they are looking at their phone screen for more than 30 seconds, you can bet it's only because they're playing Wordament or some other game. The only—ONLY—request I've heard, and from just ONE of these people (my sister), was that she wished there were a few more tile colors to pick from.

I get it, Android users. I came from Windows Mobile and stared at that phone for hours every week. When I made the switch to Windows Phone, I loved the beautiful OS at first, but after a few weeks I got bored too! I caught myself just flipping the start screen up and down, looking for something to do. Then I did something revolutionary: I turned off the screen and lived my life! With job and home responsibilities increasing and my first child due to arrive in a few weeks (this was last summer), I've come to absolutely LOVE the "glance-and-go" philosophy. I can't even imagine what life would be like if I was still spending hours flashing roms, or even an hour here and there tweaking OS customizations.

I don't have the time, don't want to take the time, and neither do my 9 family members and friends who love WP.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vnvman:
Oh, one good post.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ROCOAFZ:
UMMM

You must not have ever actually used WP7 because EVERY handset has n FM RADIO tuner under music and videos. You have to have a headset plugged in to use it as it uses the headset for the antenna

If you want a direct dialier... there is an app for it that will put a live tile you can click on on your homescreen. I don't know any user that uses there cell phone to dial 100's of NEW numbers per day. but there is an app for it. Also you can do it by voice... hold your windows key, say dial whatever the number is. That way you don't have to press but 1 button. go actually use a wp7 handset for more than a day then complain.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
Mate you hit the nail so hard on the head you've pushed it out the side and buried it in the mantel!

Android users seem to think they have the king of all modding devices, the reality is WM is the king still, all be it a slower king and like yourself I craved the ability to mod the crap out of it, then like yourself (and I have the HD2 to thank for this as I could use all 3 OSs) I stopped wanting to mod the crap out of it, I started wanting the phone to do what a phone should do, I don't want it to play games and dance or make my coffee, I just want it to work as a phone and after a while I too realised that WP was the way to go.

It wasn't long after that I realised that WP has NEVER claimed to be anything like Android or iOS or even WM, its always tried to do the best at what it does and todate it exceeds expectations in those areas. When people start comparing WP to the others it amazes me why people seem to think that it should follow the others, if MS had wanted that they would have just continued development in WM with Photon which would have wiped the floor in terms of customization and general PocketPC-ness. But MS took a different route which had it not been for piss poor marketing on a FAIL scale only rivalled by Chamberlain's waving of a bit of paper, it would have had a solid landing and taken off far quicker then it did
[Windows Phone 7 General] fatclue:
It is so refreshing to read a good post that it sucks to have to comment on it. But the most appalling marketing fail has to be Leo Apotheker's handling of HP last year.

It's funny that drokkon's life is changing and he doesn't have the time to fiddle around with phones. My kid's reaching the age of not wanting to be around her parents anymore so now I have the time to mess with phones. Guess what I got myself to pass the time? Yep a WM6.1 phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Marketing is absolutely the wrong answer as to why Windows Phone is not doing well. That is a circular, John Connor's father is his best friend from the future argument.

Someone explained this exactly right already as to what businesses push. Ultimately, businesses push what makes money for them. Apple is notoriously stingy to retailers and iDevice margins are not great. But the volume is. Apple's customer care is. So you have a low margin item with great movement and little stress. You take that to the bank. If Windows Phone was a great mover then businesses will push them. Apple pushed the iPhone, not Best Buy. Like Nokia pushed their Lumia series. The Windows Phone makers will have to design desireable phones and push them and then Windows Phone will see a bigger jump.

The formula is easy but difficult to execute.

1. Design Design Design.

2. Put reliable, sensible hardware features back by a catalogue of apps.

3. Market Market Market.

I do think Windows Phone will get there. Sad to see the Nokia newsbut they are still buying companies so I dunno.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thebobp:
You're essentially saying that WP is attractive only when you're not really using it. This is not exactly laudatory.

On the flipside, you don't actually have to flash ROMs unless you really want to. Once you get a ROM that meets your basic needs (which is increasingly, though I don't really understand this myself, stock), you don't really have to care until the next major update. In fact, you don't really have to care at all.

Sure, ROM flashing is addicting, but to blame it on the ability to flash ROMS on that OS is a bit like blaming the government for not banning drugs. Personal responsibility, anyone?
[Windows Phone 7 General] dazza9075:
Not sure I agree there mate, you can design the best software, the best hardware combine the two and I can promise you that if you screw the marketing, it will fail. Apple excelled in marketing, the fact there products were old, completely unoriginal and generally not very good was irrelevant, their marketing made all that go away by changing the magic ingredient, customer perception

Without that on your side it doesn't matter what you have to offer, your product will fail, business or no business.
[Windows Phone 7 General] sitizenx:
Market the thing!

^This.

All this nonsense from the people that want to root, side load, flash roms, etc ignores the very simple fact Apple sold hundreds of millions of phones without any of that stuff. I realize this is a geek forum. Heck I cut my teeth on Windows Mobile. Don't even remember why I signed up for this forum years ago. I remember many happy hours flashing ROMS and shoe horning apps onto my Tilt II. But none of that compares to the straight out of the box experience on my Lumia 900. The Lumia 900 was cheaper and it works great with minimal changes. I moved some live tiles around and have pretty much left everything as is.

This is the type of phone I could give to my mom or dad. It has big clear tiles that say "Mail" or "Phone" or "Messaging." I can pin contacts to the home screen and they can just touch the face of the family member they want to call, email, or text. It's simplicity is beautiful. As you have shown you get the device into people's hands and they love it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ineedtoys:
No he's not. read it again. He says he has found a phone that doesn't need, or even tempt, one to spend hours playing with it or tweaking to get it to work efficiently - it does it out of the box.

Which means he can get on with the things that matter (you know, the ones involving the real world) and use the phone to communicate rather than devoting an unnatural amount of time to a plastic slab. That's the same ethos that launched Palm, and made BBOS efficient in its heyday. Instead of people spending hours tweaking and fiddling with their phones, they just get the job done in the quickest way, and with the least interruption to life, as possible.

There you go - you've just explained precisely why you just cannot get the point or appeal of WP7. By your own admission you don't understand how someone could manage with stock, and that you find ROM flashing addictive. You're an inveterate tweaker and geek (nothing wrong with that, it's what this site is built on). But spending too much time on forums like this distorts reality - believe me you are very much in a minority when it comes to the general phone buying public.

Unlike you, at least I can appreciate the benefits of WP7 and how it makes perfect sense for the many users (including me), especially when the name of the OS is irrelevant and time and simplicity of performing tasks is at a premium. Never heard of horses for courses?

What is even more disappointing to see, and sadly becoming endemic on xda, is when someone's obsession overflows into a (somewhat sad) inability to see anyone else's point of view, and a blind dogma preached that nothing except the OS on your phone can be any good - even if the user satisfaction feedback for another platform is amongst the best in its field.

One has to wonder what your aim and motive is in your persistent attacks on others' choices.

Winning everyone around to believe that nothing else but Android should survive?

Burning the Microsoft flag and making a bonfire of Windows Phone manuals?

Jihad against anyone owning, selling or promoting a competing product?

A monolithic, Android fundamentalist state where only one choice, that of 'the almighty thebobp', is allowed?

That would be a very depressing place to live, wouldn't it?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ineedtoys:
You're missing out a whole stage in the process here. It's not Microsoft, Apple or Nokia that determine what's going to get pushed and marketed at point of sale. It's the networks. Without major network adoption, the phone is bound to fail.

Like you say the margins on hardware are minimal (and on many handsets, sold at a loss). What you ignore is that the only way most stores make real money is from high value contract sign-ups. That's the bread and butter, and it's only natural that the stores will push/market/promote those products that attract the highest contract revenue (=commission).

Interesting post here that gives some insight into the mechanics at Verizon stores, and why their energies appear to have shifted over from the iPhone (high purchase cost, low flat rate handset commission) to Android handsets (low purchase cost, lucrative contract commission).

Given the plethora of cheap-to-buy Android sets available, it's not surprising that high outlay items like the Lumia have lead to indifference from the reps. Though WP7 presence appears to be shifting a little on this side of the pond with major discounts on the cheaper 710/610 making them available at budget PAYG / minimum contract levels - some promotions at £99 with no contract appealing widely to "first time" smartphone users or those who want to "dip their toes" in WP7 without major outlay.