yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Albert Kallal:
Then you will have to explain then how Tunein Radio runs in the background receiving packets of data over the network or wifi (it works with both) by using the new background multi-tasking then?

How would this be possible without the ability to setup a network connection to pull packet data from the internet and play it?

Furthermore, you don't have necessary have to multi-task the VOIP application in the background anyway.

While I 100% disagree that you cannot use an agent to do this, you really ONLY need the background tasking "agent" to accomplish the NOTIFICATION part.

That is the part that rings your phone and tells you a Skype call has arrived. If you choose to answer, then of course it a no brainer to have the Skype application use a socket connection as non background task.

Since MANY 3rd party applications now can stream packets of information in the background and play that music/sound information, then I see little reason why the same cannot be done with Skype.

So at the end of the day:

1) we see packet streaming applications running now that pull data and play it by using Agents and they do so in the background. (so I not seeing the limitaiton pointed out here).

2) The VOIP part of the application does NOT in fact need to run as a background agent, but only the part that does notification – but worse, I disagree that the VOIP part cannot be made to run in background using an agent.

Agents can be timer based to run "every so often like 15 minutes". This is used for things like updating a live tile.

However background agents can also run resource intensive tasks such as based on network activity and this is how such radio and other applications now steam data and run code in the background.

One can freely write audio streaming applications without any issues as we speak now.

I fail to see why this technique would not work with a Skype application? As pointed out, only the notification part need be an agent but the VOIP part could also be an background agent.

I not seeing the limitation pointed out here and worse as pointed out the VOIP part does not necessary have to run as a background agent WHEN talking, only the notification and messaging part.

You have to provide better evdience here as to why this is not possbile OR you have to explain how these radio streaming applications now run in the background.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada
[Windows Phone 7 General] PG2G:
I don't really want to read the whole thing, but the API makes a special allowance for Background Music apps.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh394039(v=vs.92).aspx
[Windows Phone 7 General] Albert Kallal:
The way I read the limitation is you cannot create sockets that allow "open" ports for discovery or allow other process to CONNECT to the phone as a device "server".

So you cannot write a web server or sql server that runs in background AND ALSO allow "any" outside process to connect to that open tc/ip port. (so no exposing ports as an open connectable device socket is allowed "in background").

However the reverse is true. An agent can open and create and INITIATE and setup a tc/ip connection to a server. And there no reason why Skype cannot be viewed as a audio streaming application. So while you cannot create a server app with open sockets as background you can most certainly connect to such systems. This is EXACTLY what you need for Skype.

And we certainly see that the recent release of the Tango VOIP phone application (that supports front facing video camera) works rather nice on wp7. Now Tango does not use a background agent to my knowledge, but applications (including background ones) can most certainly open up socket connections to servers and that setup is more than adequate for Skype.

Skype requires that the client start the connection and tell Skype that you are on line and available. It is the client that sets up and initiates the connection, not the server.

This does suggest that you need a "server" to connect two wp7 phones for peer to peer audio applications (in background), but then again that is exactly what Skype's server does for you anyway.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada
[Windows Phone 7 General] JVH3:
Your mistaken on the way this works and what is exposed to developers.

Tango recieves a toast notification, which allows it to activate when you recieve a Tango call. It is not maintaining a socket when not in the foreground. The phone itself kind of does this to receive toast, but it is to the location where all toasts for the phone are coming from. (not specific to any app). Every windows phone has a ip address to receive toast.

Realtime Background processing is not there.

If you are a developer, read the link that was provided in the post prior to yours. Microsoft specifically gave developers APIs to stream audio in the background. So, you can't just keep a generic socket open and respond to requests.

This kind of conversation gets brought up alot. Even by developers. But once you start trying to dev for Windows Phone 7, you end up finding that there are alot of limitations. It's very easy to write an app, but if it doesn't fit within something Microsoft thought that you should do, you will have trouble doing it, or possibly you won't be able to do it at all.

I love the usablility of the OS, but there are things that you just can't do.

Of course Skype could do it the same way that Tango does. You don't even need to have Tango running to receive a Tango call.

Windows Phone 7 idea is that instead of every app doing all sorts of powere hungry work like opening sockets, and maintaining them, let the OS handle it with toast that hits your phone from 1 spot.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Yes, you can theoretically use the same background service that provides playback for things like the ring and notification tones. Zune has always been able to play music in the background, so that was not hard to add. All they did was give developers hooks into already-existing functionality.

VOIP is different. You not only have to playback sound, you have to transmit sound data in and out of the device. For that, you need background sockets to work so that the connection is kept open when the app is backgrounded, the same way you can press home while in a phone call and not have the call drop. It does not.

Whether sound can play in the background is useless if your app depends on data transfer and you're unable to transfer any data...

They hav the same limitation with GPS data. Applications cannot revieve live GPS data while they are in the background.

Again, the issue is not the phone limiting background audio. The issue is that the phone closes your data connection when the app is backgrounded. VOIP apps rely on that connection being open for the duration of the session, or they are not really worth using for a lot of people... Here's an obvious use case:

*Incoming Skype Call*

You: Hi!

Boss: Did you submit Revision_X? It introduced a bug in the code...

You: Hrm, I did a few commits, lemme check...

*Hit Home Button, Open IE, checks commits*

You: Oops, sorry, I'll get right on that...

...

... ...

... ... ...

You: Hello? Hello? Hello? Oh damn :-(

And Toasts would be fine if notifications for pretty much every third party app that supports them weren't so slow. I haven't tried Tango, though. Maybe it's above average...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Albert Kallal:
The way I read the socket limitation is in regards to keeping open (polling) open incoming connections, not outgoing ones. The fact that this is a audio stream may not necessary be a deal breaker here. And those streaming apps do send up info during audio streaming so they are not just one way.

However at the end of day, we been promised that Skype is on its way at MIX11.

So either one of two things will occur:

The current api and abilities in Mango will be sufficient and we see a Skype appear as a download the marketplace. This is what I expect to occur.

Or we see an update to wp7 phone and THEN see the Skype application appear in the marketplace? I suppose if this occurs then this may suggest that the current Mango was/is not up to the task of Skype.

I am certainly open to the idea that some additional API's may be added here to help with operation of Skype. I stress the difference between "may" and "must" however.

So, sure, time will tell if we need an OS update, but either way we been told Skype is coming to wp7.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada
[Windows Phone 7 General] PG2G:
The current API is enough to support Skype, Skype isn't any different than Tango. It just isn't enough to do it well :P You can read up some of the reviews of Tango to get an idea. Things like missed toast notifications for a call (because they don't stay up that long) sound pretty important.

I really wish Microsoft would have done at least as much as Apple did with their "multitasking." Oh well though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] JVH3:
I have an iPhone and an LG Quantum both with different numbers. I have played with Tango on both. Neither has ever missed a call from me. Toasts are reliable despite the posts on them. I think most posts on the reliability are just restatements of what people have read and not actually observed.

As a developer, I am hoping MS actually opens some things up. Being able to have an application continue to run in the backgound would make Skype alot more useful. Microsoft can do more than other devs when developing Skype, since they can modify anything about Windows Phone 7, or just do things that other devs cannot, such as use native code.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I've already posted 2 videos on this forum showing the WP7 device PUSH notifications lagging significantly behind both Android and iOS. It's not FUD. It's Fact.

I'm having a Facebook conversation right now on my devices and the push notifications coming into my iTouch and Android device are coming in 3-5 minutes late on my HD7... Shall I whip out the camcorder... Yet... Again???
[Windows Phone 7 General] xHausx:
Looks like Skype is the first company to post something on XDA's Job Board, see: Skype [Stockholm, Sweden]: Software Engineer, Windows Phone

I'm guessing there is your answer :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
So, they haven't even started yet?
[Windows Phone 7 General] PG2G:
I wonder if that is an app-specific thing? I know that the Facebook app for wp7 isn't developed in house, maybe it doesn't have hooks into the same place as the in house applications on other platforms?

As a counter point: http://m.wpcentral.com/doesnt-mean-anything-apple-ios-vs-windows-phone-push-notification
[Windows Phone 7 General] sayonical:
I dont have too much of an issue with notications. If I missed a call from Tango the tango tile will update showing that I missed a call. THATS THE SAME THING AS KEEPING THE TOAST IN A NOTIFICATION AREA.

If I missed a mention toast from rowi. The rowi tile still updates to show who mentioned me on twitter. THATS THE SAME THING AS KEEP THE TOAST IN A NOTIFICATION AREA.

Missed toasts are only an issue for those who don't pin the apps to the main screen. So I suppose a place to see all missed toasts would be a good idea. I am completely ok with an aditional pivot in the Me Tile for app notifications.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RoboDad:
Actually it isn't the same. There is very limited screen real estate for a live tile to use. If you miss one toast, then yes, the live tile can give the same information as a notification center. But what if you miss two? Or three? Or four? Then the live tile can only do one of two things - either become a badge, where it tells you you missed N number of notifications, or else it shows the most recent one, giving no clue about the others.

Another difference is aggregation of data. Live tiles only provide information for a single app. If you have a dozen apps that can provide notifications, you need to have all of them pinned, and scroll around your start screen to see them all (often having to wait for the tile to flip before you see any info at all). With a notification center, they are all in one place, making for an easy "glance and go" experience.

Further, a properly implemented notification center would be accessible from anywhere, at any time, even when running an app or game.
[Windows Phone 7 General] PG2G:
I wasn't talking about the notification center, moreso that the windows phone notification arrived at the same time as the iOS one.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RoboDad:
Oh, I understand that, and I agree with you. I was just clarifying (from sayonical's post) the common misconception that live tiles and a notification center are functional equivalents. They are not. Each has unique value, and both can and should have a place in the Windows Phone system design.
[Windows Phone 7 General] sayonical:
I know I actually didn't mean to quote your post just comment after it :P

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

Good Points. I see where you're coming from completely. I just hated the android app bar and the contant clearing away fo things, some that persisted and became annoying.

Also live tiles can show more than a counter if done right. Rowi and Carbon flips on side to show the latest mention and flips on the other to show counts of mentions/DMs. I dont think any more information than that i needed for twitter. But thats my opinion: Say I dont use my phone for a few hours and missed 22 toasts. What will a notification center show me? - Each missed 22 toasts or that I missed a total of 22 toasts? The live tile does the latter already.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RoboDad:
It depends on how the notification center would be implemented. Ideally, you would be able to specify the number of toasts to "remember" from each individual app or hub. If you want to see all 22, then you should be able to specify that. If you only want the 5 or 10 most recent, that should be an option as well.

The one thing that a notification center will/should never do is just tell you that you missed 22 toasts. That would kind of defeat the purpose of the feature.

I don't own an iPhone, but I know that iOS 5 added such a feature. Here is a video I found that demos some of the behavior on that platform, and it looks like they got most of the ideas right. Something similar in WP would be a very welcome addition (IMO).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCQh4BcnLR0
[Windows Phone 7 General] JVH3:
I do own an iPhone 4S with iOS 5 and it does implement a very good notification center. It is very clear which notifications you recieved for each app, and you do not need to look through anything that did not recieve a notification.

I did notice today, that a friend request on Facebook did notify my iPhone about 30 seconds sooner than my LG Quantum with Windows Phone 7.

I have been carrying both phones, because one is from work and the other is my personal phone.

Every test I have ever done with Tango, is nearly an instantaneous ring on the Quantum though.

A little reading on the code for sending toast to the phone shows that priority is settable.

I used Google to find this link: http://www.nickharris.net/tag/microsoft-push-notifications-service-c/

[B][COLOR=#006699]protected[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#006699]override[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#006699]bool[/COLOR][/B] IsPriorityValid([B][COLOR=#006699]int[/COLOR][/B] priority) </SPAN>
{
[B][COLOR=#006699]return[/COLOR][/B] priority == 2 [COLOR=#008200]//2 – Real Time. The toast notification is delivered as soon as possible. [/COLOR]</SPAN>
|| priority == 12 [COLOR=#008200]//12 – Priority. The toast notification is delivered at a predefined timeout. [/COLOR]</SPAN>
|| priority == 22; [COLOR=#008200]//22 – Regular. The toast notification is delivered at a predefined timeout which is greater than the Priority batching interval. [/COLOR]
}

After going to the link, you can see that NotificationBase which is a class provided by Microsoft, takes priority as a parameter to its constructor.

So, it looks to me like real time (near real time) toasts are possible. But they are probably not used when they are not needed, such as recieving a friend request.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Albert Kallal:
And your claim is that these delays are due to the OS on the phone? So you mean the OS or the phone API's are somehow causing the 3-5 minute delay here? Are you saying the push notification comes down the network pipe and THEN the phone waits 3-5 minutes to process that notification?

You have to provide some additional information if this in fact the case. If your claim is the message comes down the network pipe and the phone sits on that message for 3-5 minutes, then that is news to me. You have to provide more information to show this is the case and thus the API's or phone OS is responsible for the large delay here?

As I stated there are number of socket apps that run VERY nice in background (the web browser is one of them).

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada
[Windows Phone 7 General] sayonical:
:rolleyes:

Aren't you a bit over dramatic. Google and Apple have better engineers? LOL
[Windows Phone 7 General] Albert Kallal:
Exactly my point - you have no proof or claim here at all. In other words sheer speculation on your part.

And you attempting to tell everyone here the phone has received that message and does nothing for 5 minutes? (that is pure garbage and myth on your part).

You have provided ZERO evidence that the phone waits AFTER receiving that data (zero, none, nada, zilch).

You not demonstrated the above at all.

You are attempting to tell everyone here based on false pretext that the phone is waiting that long AFTER receiving the message? That is garbage and speculation on your part.

The phone does not wait that long. If you telling me such delays occur, then this is the phone network and not the phone. Not the phone software. Not the phone's api's. And not Mango os.

You going to have to demonstrate that the pushed data has come down the pipe AND THEN the phone os/api's wait on that data. This is NOT the case and thus logic concludes such delays are not the fault/issue of the os.

As I stated, if you are telling me the notification comes down the network pipe and THEN the phone sits for 5 minutes, you going to have to provide MUCH better speculation then what you given here so far.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada
[Windows Phone 7 General] JVH3:
I did have a personal experience where I observed a delay.

I have 2 phone lines which are both with AT&T Wireless. One is an iPhone 4S that work provided me. The other is my own LG Quantum.

I carry them both with me, because friends call my phone and work calls the other.

Both recieved the same friend request. But the notification appeared on my iPhone about 30 seconds sooner. It was not too important to me, since it was just someone that I had worked with at a Burger King 20 years ago while in High School.

In any case, there was an observable difference. Phones were within 2 feet of each other on the same network.

Here is a link on implementing Toast messages: http://channel9.msdn.com/Learn/Cour...o-the-Toast-and-Tile-Notifications-for-Alerts

My guess is that Facebook itself is not sending the Toast message out immediately and it has nothing to do with the OS or the client app.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dragonide:
You are funny.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Explains why Microsoft is the top mobile OS. We all know windows mobile was a technological marvel and wp7 came out of the gate and completely leapfrogged those competing os in both functionality and user experience.

Some people here have had a terrible education it seems. Let me break it down in one statement.

The videos I posted displayed the issue pretty obviously, but I'll have another one up tomorrow to shut you guys up regardless.

Until then...

The issue is that the other devices get the notification way before Wp7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doktorg:
@N8ter. Don't quote me too much on this because i only know the rough details about this and also I haven't read this whole thread only the last few posts.

But as far as I know WP7 has different methods of notifications that developers can use. There are pull and push notifications (I could get these mixed up the wrong way). If the developer decides to use pull notifications they can only hit the server every so often to receive notifications and so there will be a delay. they can't have the app pulling every second because it will chew up battery big time. Some apps use push notifications and the server pushes these to the phone and they come instantly. I'm not sure how Facebook have developed there app but maybe they have used pull for Friend Requests and therefore there is a lag (who needs to know asap they have a friend request anyway??).

Apps that use push are pretty much instant. e.g. try using Alpha Jax or Wheel of Wealth. I play with my wife at home over WiFi and as soon one of us completes a turn we get the notification as soon as either one of us have hit the play button. If you use Facebook chat in the WP7 native client you'll also see the notifications are instant. So don't be bagging WP7 or MS. It comes down to the method the developer/app uses for getting notifications.

Don't bother posting any more videos. Even if iOS 5 is slightly faster in these things our OS is prettier and better. Icons are so 90's.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Microsoft developed the Facebook app on Windows Phone 7. I haven't seen one cross platform app where the notification speed is comparable to Android and iOS, so I'm starting to wonder if it's a backend issue at Microsoft end.

That was good information though. I'll have to look into that.

iOS 5 has a complete notification center and lock screen notifications. Sometimes function and efficient work flow trumps fashion. Also, android is superior at that as well, as is website and blackberry. WP7 is a red herring here, and the delivery speeds are Often well beyond being just "slightly faster. " I'm talking minutes difference and sometimes 30 seconds or so on instant messages - and I emphasize the instant part of that.

The video is needed, IMO. Too much FUD and unnecessary doubt and animosity here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] xHausx:
It's probably just optimized for battery life. Push notifications can keep your data connection active and chew through your battery if you're not careful.

This is actually one of things that contributes to android's bad rep for battery life, the defaults are set for instant email notifications.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mikeeam:
Hey guys, there is a topic about push notifications and Facebook. Dont blame the system. I always receive my Kik and WhatsApp messages instantly. But Facebook there is a 5 mins delay indeed.

Right now I want know WHERE IS SKYPE?

Microsoft should create a site companion to "Where is my update?", the "Where is my Skype?".
[Windows Phone 7 General] dragonide:
I dunno which tests you did to say such a thing.

I could understand what you are saying if you talked about a specific issue regarding Skype ...

But if you talk about

ANY

cross platform app then I assure you are deadly wrong. According to my personal experience of course.

Btw if you

want

to believe in the 'miracle engineers' story for Android (lol) or Iphone platform then you are free to do so ... but personally I wouldn't state something similar, especially for Android.