yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Topics] krale:
I don't think I am here to answer to you, so sorry about your inferiority complex :)

Regarding the mermaids and fairies, it would be wise to just be real, and not cry all the time, without actually perceiving reality as it is. Tears won't change a thing.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You are debating me, trying to convince me of stuff, making comments as if I'm the uninformed and biased one. So yes, you are actually. Furthermore, you shouldn't provide the info for my sake, I already know it - it's about you providing credibility to your posts. Because right now, there isn't any.

You have no clue what went on in the Dutch case, what it's results were and what ramifications those results have. If that's not true, provide the info which will show that it isn't. Not for my sake, but for your sake.

This is all so predictable, I've seen it plenty of times. So I predict that instead of showing you have some real clue, you'll call me even more things. Hmm, what's even lower than accusing me of an inferiority complex? Show me your imagination.

@woody_2k: Meh, this thread is down the crapper anyway. When there's some new development on the case (a meeting between Samsung and Apple will take place on Monday, I'll be following closely what will be going on), there'll be actual content to talk about. Until then, what the heck.

And you're right, what will happen to the Nortel portfolio is also very, very interesting. Do you by any chance know if and when there will be investigations about it?
[General Topics] austin420:
This thread has been brought to you by "krale fail" and new "total krale fail" when the fail isn't strong enough.

How do you have a debate end with "I'm not here to answser to you". Hahaha. Krale looses at the interwebz.
[General Topics] sygeek:
Can you really be this stupid? really?
[General Topics] CallMeVentus:
I think Crapple is doing this to dominate the market .

If they keep suing and *NOT* concentrate on hardware/software development , what good will it be for them ? Sure , they might win a couple of cases , but the consumers get *NOTHING* .

I really don't understand why Steve/Tim wants to do this . Can't they just shut the **** up and move on to win them ? That's what they can do right ?

Besides , Samsung made some parts for the iPhone . If they fall out with Sammy , who's gonna make those parts ? I don't think the iPhone "experience" will be that "pleasing" anymore .

(Yes , I shamelessly admit to have touched the device and liking it , but that doesn't mean I love my Galaxy Ace more despite the lower specs .)

Forever living in my Galaxy Ace using XDA App
[General Topics] ph00ny:
@krale

Community design is quite a bit different than an actual patent. Requirement for obtaining such is simply having a valid address and name and what's worse is that there is no review process on the design itself for the approval. As for the community design in question, those were submitted long before ipad was conceived and doesn't specify that it's for a tablet (and yes these are public documents). Initial preliminary injunction was indeed granted based on the fact that there is a community design and later ruled in favor of apple. However, IMO, there are quite a few reasonable prior art examples that shows very similar design cues and ruling in the court seems unreasonable based on the judge's reasoning behind the ruling

As for the newer lawsuits against apple, are you saying those are simply retaliation lawsuits without any validity? It's like Nokia and their GSM related patents and Samsung and their 3G related patents, both are very valid and very essential for transmitting information via cellular service. Just because one company doesn't go after everyone and their dogs doesn't mean they don't own the IP of those methods/technology.

Now the timing of both apple's lawsuits and samsung's lawsuits are questionable or very strategic. Apple's lawsuit coincided with the Galaxy S2/Galaxy Tab 10.1 which are both very competitive products and Samsung waited for the iphone5 release to most likely to make sure the same mistake made in the US lawsuit in asking for the review of iphone5/4s didn't happen.

As for me as a consumer, i can't thank apple enough for lighting a fire under samsung for a more aggressive product cycle and not making products that are barely competitive and causing a shockwave for other companies to stay competitive

EDIT: I hear microsoft has ton of community designs submitted in europe, i wonder how that will pen out.

Here is a glimpse of the patent portfolio between various companies that resides in mobile space. Motorola is the other beast that owns a lot of essential transmission based patents
[General Topics] krale:
I think you should realize that the number of actual patents doesn't mean a thing.

Regarding community design - this specific case proved that it is difficult to adjudge, but also to acquit regarding the topic. It is not as black and white, as biased people would like you to think.

Community design is a valid patent, albeit one that requires more fluidity in judicial interpretation. But it is exactly this fluidity that caused the German court's decision in Apple's favor, because it is clear that the Samsung OS customization infringed the patents in question.

It is common logic that Samsung has based its products on the iPhone/iPad, so this common logic was behind German court's decision. Community design patents are not as legalistically rigid, but nevertheless they do provide intellectual rights protection.
[General Topics] Jolt45:
nice chart
[General Topics] ph00ny:
I think you're confusing patents and community designs and you're right on the number of patents. However, quality of the patents matters quite a bit more and Nokia, Samsung, and motorola etc holds a lot of key patents in the mobile space. I'm sure if they really wanted, they can demand a fee from their competitors but they choose not to and work together.

Also Judge's ruling in germany was based on Galaxy Tab 10.1 not Galaxy S phones. Which customization by samsung is in anyway is like ipad which consist of grid of icons + app dock on the bottom? Most of touchwiz UX customizations are on widgets, notification/status, touchwiz apps and look and feel of the honeycomb layout.

Have you actually looked at the community design in question? It's very generic and in fact it looks less like an ipad with lack of physical button and thinner bezels.

You should see their ipod community design submissions. They've literally captured every design available on the market that one of them looks oh so similar. In fact they submitted creative zen vision m as part of their submission because submissions are not checked for validity of the designs and the new regulation added in 2002 automatically makes the community designs valid.

Do you know why germany was chosen? In conjunction with the 2002 regulation, there is no hearing/notification in Germany for injunctions to be granted.

Here is the description from the OHIM for your reference (OHIM grants the community design)
[General Topics] MartyLK:
Exacty and precisely as you say.
[General Topics] krale:
This is just a guess. Companies are profit-motivated entities, and its absolute nonsense to suggest that they simply out of good-will do not charge others fees. It is quite obvious, however, that for example in the case of Nokia vs. Apple, when such possibilities exist, they will use it to their advantage.

This good vs. bad companies analogy is very prevalent but quite wrong. ALL companies are for profit! Don't forget that.

And what is actually the problem here? If they were smart enough to patent every generic community design out-there - that just means they beat the competition to it.

And I am quite sure its not so. Designs are still possible without infringing the community designs of Apple (just look at - oh well, BB and WP7 for example?). That's why the German judge decided Samsung was wrong.

Because its Samsung's second largest market, and with the EU included, Samsung's largest.
[General Topics] elmagodeoz21:
samsung has good phones
[General Topics] ph00ny:
Are you purposely dodging my questions or not understanding what i wrote

you said the OS customization looks like the ipad/iphone and i asked you which part of 10.1 which the ruling was based on is like the ipad/iphone

Based on your response, you haven't actually seen the community design in question and do not understand which device court case was about.

Germany is the second largest market for samsung and that's the reason behind the lawsuit in Germany? You're kidding me right? Did you not read what was written in the previous response?

You accused people of being biased but look at your posts. You won't even bother to take in facts
[General Topics] krale:
The case in question was regarding the Tab 10.1. But also injunctions have been made against the 7.7 tab.

Your response was incorrect. The reason Apple went after them was that it is a big market for both Apple and Samsung. There are markets where Apple could win more easily, but are not as significant.
[General Topics] CallMeVentus:
To tell the truth , the two of you wouldn't be arguing if Apple didn't sue Samsung .

See , that's how Apple makes everyone go disorderly . *sigh*

Forever living in my Galaxy Ace using XDA App
[General Topics] Justdoit2u:
Krale get your facts right 1st! The only complaint that Apple got upheld against Samsung was the look and feel of the Gallery app! Something not of Samsung's doing but Googles and funnily enough something that has changed in the latest Gingerbread update that's hit the Nexus One and S! The German court case hasn't happened yet, Samsung just haven't been able to overturn the injunction before it happens and Apple have just added models to it that's all! The courts also didn't rule in favour of Apple regarding the thinness of the phones claim in the UK, that was the ASA - Advertising Standards Authority that isn't anything to with the legal system in the UK, its an ombudsmen for advertising! Incidently Samsung won a case against Motorola who claimed the Atrix was the world's most powerful smartphone in the world as the ASA ruled that the average persons view was processing power of the item was what defined most powerful whilst Motorola argued that the laptop dock etc was the reason for their claim. BTW Americans, South Korea isn't a sleepy water backwards country, its well known that many Americans are ignorant of anything outside of the USA so allow myself to inform you that actually they are technology wise the most advanced country in the world! They are years ahead of anywhere in the west and when it comes to electronic design, development and manufacturer of high end devices they are light years ahead of the likes of Japan and China! Don't let your patriotic duty get in the way of the facts.....
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Of course he is. It's very clear that he *still* doesn't know the details of the cases, which community design it's about (and that it's invalid because of prior art, if you accept the validity of community designs in the first place) and that the Dutch judge knew how easy it is to circumvent that one patent and took it into account when he made his verdict. The judge knew there will be no injunction, that Samsung will render it moot with a simple software upgrade.

Then, he is in full support of a flawed system, while at the same time accepting that Apple has been operating for years without a license for core 3G technologies. Of course Apple is claiming that Samsung refused to license those under FRAND terms, but we have yet to see if this claim has any merit. Considering the iPhone 3G was released in 2008, while this spat with Samsung is quite a bit newer, I doubt it has merit. Apple should've licensed 3G right then, in 2008.

---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

The hearing is underway in the Netherlands. So far Samsung is making some big claims. In particular, that they provided two deals to Apple and Apple refused. I'm sure once it's Apple's turn, they'll also be making big claims.

Edit: And big claims Apple made. Very big. Samsung countered them quite well though, I think. So we'll see. The judge will decide on October 14th whether Samsung has a case.
[General Topics] ph00ny:
That statement is as ignorant as the those in the states that think the world evolves around them
[General Topics] Justdoit2u:
Whilst not trying to flame it isn't ignorant in the slightest but fact! Many stats point to 75% of Americans not having passports although the younger demographic fair better with around a third owning one. And whilst not owning a passport doesn't mean your unaware of different cultures and countries it does point to the unwillingness to learn and experience them. BTW I am neither American or Korean.
[General Topics] krale:
Quite a few facts wrong here, but look, this isn't Apple Community Forum, so its pretty clear how the discussion is going to pan out.

I pointed to the obvious reality that Apple is winning is clearly a suggestion that Samsung is stealing. Courts in so many different legal systems and country's would not be interested in conspiracy theories, and also it is not possible to dismiss everything on a "flawed" system. How many "flawed" systems are there? Uk, Germany, Netherlands, Australia... more?
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You do know there will be no EU-wide injunction, right? And that even in Germany, Samsung can continue to sell it's devices, because the injunction applies only to "Samsung GmbH" and not "Samsung International"? Of course you don't. Well, now you do. And now that you know that, tell me, how is that a win for Apple? Also, none of these cases are about stealing.

It's not the countries that are flawed, it's the system of community designs and software patents. Would you *please* finally read up on how community designs work?
[General Topics] Justdoit2u:
Winning what exactly? As I stated in the Netherlands Apple lost 9 out of 10 of their claims of copyright infringement, the only one that was upheld was regarding photos in the gallery, a Google standard App not a Samsung Touchwizz addition. Google have now modified this App, pictures no longer pinch/zoom and the overview of pictures has changed so Apple can no longer use this to force the sale and distribution of the devices! The German court action hasn't even started yet, all that is in place is the injunction to not sell the range of newer Tabs in Germany, they failed to get a European sales ban!

A company can try and patent as many items it likes but getting them to stick in court is a totally different matter especially when your registering a generic pattern or design. That doesn't constitute theft by another company more like a company trying to restrict sales of other companies devices.
[General Topics] Startapp:
I call a patent on this thread, and will press charges against all posting from here on forth.
[General Topics] CallMeVentus:
So.....that means ?

Forever living in my Galaxy Ace using XDA App
[General Topics] AllGamer:
Apple gets another hit in Australia

Another week, another hit in the court room

Samsung Electronics Co has filed a counter claim in an Australian court, accusing Apple of infringing its wireless patents related to the U.S. firm's iPhone and iPad products

This game of chess between Apple vs Samsung is turning quite interesting :)

if this was a Poker game, they should just about to show hand by now, and see who got the best deck of patents :D
[General Topics] krale:
Yes off course I knew that, what I dont need is your condescending attitude.

If its not a problem, I don't see a reason why does Samsung even show up at the court hearings? Just let Apple "win" everything.

Again - I know quite well what the issue is. You fail to admit reality ALL THE TIME - Samsung lost and that's because obviously its designs are based on Apple's.

Even if there weren't these cases, tell me honestly - just out of common logic, but be realistic - wasn't Samsung basing its products on the iPhone/iPad? Its so obvious just by looking at the two things, we don't even need a court to tell us so. Its like obvious so please stop defending the undefendable.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
I have just above explained how Samsung did in fact *not* lose. Germany is a logistical hassle, but that's it. You claim to know the details, but then in the next sentence you know how you actually don't.

The iPhone and especially the iPad have prior art. So your question is irrelevant, Apple has no right to claim the designs are theirs. Even if Samsung based it's products on Apple's, Apple based theirs on Compaq's, LG's, SonyEricsson's, etc, etc, and with iOS5 even on Google's.
[General Topics] krale:
Are you in puberty? LOL. It actually doesn't matter who was first, it only matters who registered it first - and I think you know that answer to that.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Weren't you the one complaining about condescension before?

And how cool, this is something I wrote in an earlier post: "This is all so predictable, I've seen it plenty of times. So I predict that instead of showing you have some real clue, you'll call me even more things. Hmm, what's even lower than accusing me of an inferiority complex? Show me your imagination." <-- Jackpot!!! Now, do I rule, or do I rule?

There's a lot of fail in your debating skills, but you do have one tactic down - diversion.
[General Topics] ph00ny:
Actually that's not true. Prior arts override any design related patents and in this case community design (community design is more like trademark than a patent)
[General Topics] MartyLK:
That's something the Apple haters can't see. Ask them about an iPhone-type smartphone before the iPhone launched and the best they can do is the LG Prada, which came out just a month or two prior to the iPhone and was likely LG using Apple's tech to try to beat Apple to the punch. I say that because LG won the contract to produce the iPhone's capacitive touch displays so they had full access to Apple's tech. And the Prada was never seen in a mass-market scenario.

A minister put it succinctly one time when he said, "people will believe what they want". What this means is, if a person wants to believe Apple copied tech from other companies, they will only look at anything that supports their desired position. They try to make a mountain out of a molehill.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Err, the Prada was winning design awards already a year before the iPhone launched. Also, did you again forgot to read this: http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=17189242&postcount=31 ? I'll quote the relevant part:

Also, there's another phone out there that's quite cool to use as prior art. So cool that the Dutch judge did just that.

Got anything to back that up? Also, capacitive touchscreens aren't "Apple's tech".

And not to mention that we're talking here about a specific community design Apple used in their cases in Germany and Holland. Do you know which community design that is? It has prior art. Several items of prior art.

You do realize I could turn this quote against you, right? For example, how you continue to believe that Apple is the inventor of who knows how many things, no matter how many items of prior art you're presented with.

And then it's always the "Apple haters" who are accused of bias.
[General Topics] wendellc:
Funny this goes both ways, not just apple haters. There will never be an end to fanboyism.

This thread is very entertaining, I have been waiting for krale to come back but every time he does he gets pummeled. Krale was doing great I the beginning though.
[General Topics] krale:
Not true universally. Even the new rules for patents that are being proposed by the administration in the US will change to disregard who came up with it first, to who patented it first.

Pretty sure about German law on this subject, as what I've read on the changes being made in the USA now, is to become more in tune with global laws regarding copyright. Otherwise courts and patent committee's are overwhelmed by "historical claims" - so this way its settled pretty easily - who submitted the first patent, holds the rights period.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You know what I find very, very funny? First comes the claim that others copied Apple. We counter that Apple is the one who copied, by presenting prior art which shows that Apple's designs aren't at all unique. And now suddenly it's "who cares, Apple filed first", the fact that Apple copied is apparently no longer relevant. Diversion at it's best.
[General Topics] AllGamer:
Samsung seeks Dutch ban on 3G iPhone, iPad

Samsung seeks Dutch ban on 3G iPhone, iPad

Wow! the day is not over yet, and here's another 1 - 2 punch on Apple's face

Apple's has been rather quiet since the Chess game begun, i wonder what Apple have up its sleeves ;)

Holy crap! this duel is sure heating up the drama before the season finale for 2011
[General Topics] krale:
Actually this has been the law in most of the world long before the cases Apple vs. Samsung.

I feel sorry that you have been so poorly informed on the subject matter.
[General Topics] StrikaX8:
I hope Samsung succeeds even a little bit this time..

btw, Dutch isn't a country, people that are from The Netherlands are Dutch and so is the language spoken there :)
[General Topics] AllGamer:
thanks for the heads up :D
[General Topics] MartyLK:
Oh my! You are speaking full logic to biased minds. You can tell them the sky is blue. But if they believe it's green, you're a heretic and pure evil for claiming otherwise. Then you can ask them to come outside and take a look for themselves. But on their way out they would grab a set of green tinted shades.

They will only see their side of this. It is impossible for them to see otherwise when they don't want to. And it actually doesn't really matter how they see it. The truth will prevail in the end...as is happening with Apple.
[General Topics] CallMeVentus:
Hey , I don't think you're as impartial as you say .

Sure , I'm biased towards Android , but I do have used an iPhone before . (Starting from the 1st iPhone to the iPhone 4)

I would wanna say that Apple didn't make the internal products , only software .

The internal stuff was made by many different companies......including Samsung .

I know I'm gonna get flamed/trolled for this , but I would wanna say that Apple is overcharging their useless sh*t for such a "mid-to-high range" product .

1Ghz , meh . Dual-core , meh .

Anything Apple sells is closed-source .

They induce DRM on their tablet . (Which I heard from some , please clarify me on that)

Btw , if I'm not even arguing right , I'm just putting that out there ;)

Forever living in my Galaxy Ace using XDA App
[General Topics] MartyLK:
All I can do is direct people to my posting history. I love Android and prefer it to iOS. I also love WP7 more than any of them. But it is featureless and MS is slow to act with it. But Apple makes expensive products because of the costs involved in manufacturing those products. Is Apple doing what Honda did back in the '80s by marketing their cars in an "exclusivity" type way? Probably. But who says they can't do that? As long as all the smartphone makers continue to exist, that's all I care about.

Samsung has some fine products, no doubt about it. But the truth is, Sammy did copy Apple. There's no doubt about that either.

Now...don't nobody distract me. I'm patiently waiting for the Mango update for my gorgeous and excellent Focus, which is suppose to occur tomorrow. :)
[General Topics] CallMeVentus:
Wow , I guess you're right that they *did* copy the iPhone design .

The only thing I hope for is the best for Sammy .

Okay , I shan't disturb you till later :p

Forever living in my Galaxy Ace using XDA App
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Concerning the iPad, Apple copied the Knight Ridder, the Compaq TC1100 and the Fusion Garage JooJoo. Concerning the iPhone, they copied PDAs and the LG Prada. Concerning iOS, they copied at least Nokia S60, SonyEricsson UIQ and PalmOS. Concerning iOS5, they also copied Android and Windows Mobile. *That* is the truth.
[General Topics] CallMeVentus:
I agree on the iOS 5 part .

The notifications thingy pissed me off .

Forever living in my Galaxy Ace using XDA App