yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Topics] Tone_:
Do you understand the term you have highlighted?? Deprive the owner of benefit!

San Francisco federal judge William Alsup read the Google engineer 'Tim Lindholm' e-mail aloud in open court: "We've been over a hundred [alternatives to using Java] and think they all suck," it says. "We conclude that we need to negotiate a license for Java." After the recitation, the judge told Google's lawyers, "You are going to be on the losing end of this document.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Google did not take Oracle code, they took Harmony code. Oracle is still benefiting from their code. Your quotes change nothing regarding those two.
[General Topics] Tone_:
Yeah of course they did, lol.

Have a read of this http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/09/judge-inclined-to-order-top-executive.html if Google did not take anything from Oracle why is the judge trying to get them to settle out of court?

Lets wait a few months - I imagine Google will have been found guilty of wilful infringement.
[General Topics] wendellc:
"Oracle has tried to cover up some of Sun's support of Android in its attempts to back its lawsuit against Google. The company deleted a blog post from 2007 (cached) from the then head of Sun, Jonathan Schwartz, not only accepted Google's use of Java in Android but gave "heartfelt congratulations" for its use. "
[General Topics] Tone_:
So how do you square that blog post against Sun offering Google a 3 year license for Java which they refused?
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You're throwing a whole bunch of different concepts into one pot here. They're different things, though. That's why they're all called differently.

All I said is they didn't take code. There were some snippets in the Google repositories, but they were never part of Android. Beyond that it's all Harmony and Google's own stuff.

And you still haven't explained where stealing comes into it.
[General Topics] wendellc:
I'd refuse it too if I already been given the OK to use Java before oracle acquired sun.
[General Topics] MartyLK:
I remember seeing a report that Google found the letter and presented it to the court.

There's all manner of lowlifes out there, who want to steal and defame and lie. Oracle seems to be one of them. I'd like to see Google throw it back in Oracle's face and flaunt Android in a way that maximized the ire of Oracle and then laugh their ass off at Oracle.

But in reality, it goes to show how bad the economy really is. That companies need to resort to such survival tactics is testament to the damage the last admin wreaked on this nation.
[General Topics] sygeek:
Oh god! Not again.
[General Topics] Tone_:
Taking something without paying for it, Google took Java without paying for a license, even though sun offered them one, have a look at that link all the info is there...
[General Topics] Tone_:
Sun offered the license not Oracle, if Google had paid we would not be having this debate..
[General Topics] sygeek:
Oracle's just patent trolling bro. First of all, Oracle wants all the profit Google has made since the Android was revealed and some more. According to the filing Oracle is not just looking for a licensing deal, but it also wants all the ad revenue Google gets from search on android phones.

If you still don't think that's evil, Oracle is also looking to triple the fine for past infringements.

Google really needs to win this case, and it probably will.

TL;DR Oracle is a patent troll.
[General Topics] MartyLK:
Google should by all rights win the case. Google got clear and free permission to use Java before Oracle bought Sun. The head guy at Sun even wished Google good fortune with Android using Java.

Screw Oracle and their backstabbing ways.
[General Topics] chaosm:
offered??i dont think
[General Topics] Gusar321:
By the definition you yourself provided, to qualify for stealing there has to be intent to deprive the owner of the use or benefit [of their property]. Google did not intend to deprive Oracle of Java. Ergo, it's not stealing. That use of certain technologies may require licensing them is something different. Hence my "you're throwing a whole bunch of different concepts into one pot here".
[General Topics] Tone_:
They also offered google a 3 year license which I would imagine holds more weight than a blog post.
[General Topics] Tone_:
I didn't think these different concepts would be so hard to understand, yes google did deprive sun/oracle from the benefits of java and the judge surmised as much, the question is did they wilfully do this - if they did then they may get an injunction against google to stop using it.

Oracle should win this easily if their greed doesn't bite them in the ass.

You might want to read that link to fosspatents before posting a reply...
[General Topics] Gusar321:
WTF?? This one you're gonna have to explain really, really carefully.
[General Topics] Tone_:
Take your head out of the sand and read fosspatents.
[General Topics] wendellc:
Its more than a blog post, it came directly from the CEO of SUN at the time and Oracle tried to hide or delete it.
[General Topics] FiyaFleye:
There needs to be a like button on this forum. I'll refrain from making my comments since the moderators on this forum give you infractions for making true statements about Android and it's clan here and they praise the false ones against Microsoft... All hail XDA.
[General Topics] hungry81:


1. there is a like button. Log in from a PC.

2. lies make baby FSM cry
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Ah, so you can't explain it. Ok.
[General Topics] 1Khronos:
Good riddance
[General Topics] droganche:
Interesting...
[General Topics] Tone_:
I have explained but you seem devoid of any understanding and lack comprehension.

Oracle v. Google mediation: Larry meets Larry to talk tons of money http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-thursday-i-reported-that-odds-were.html
[General Topics] carden12:
i like google more..though i use windows 7
[General Topics] primetechv2:
I think my IQ dropped a couple points upon entering this thread.

Google makes Android and a darn good search engine. Microsoft makes Windows. Microsoft trying to be Google is a big mistake... Windows Phones were an interesting TV commercial phenomenon. But in the real world, people who buy smartphones WANT to use them, not "not use" them. Bing is yet another example of Microsoft tryin' to dominate Google and failing -- a word-of-mouth website over a large corporate push that includes everything from Internet Explorer defaults and beyond.
[General Topics] MartyLK:
I see your logic. But I don't believe a company is set in stone so that they can't diversify. Apple is a prime example. They started out pushing the personal computer and found themselves pushing MP3 players. MP3 players evolved into smartphones and tablets.

Microsoft started out pushing business or enterprise software and the development of the modern computer OS. Then they went into MP3 players and failed. They went into console gaming and succeeded fantastically.

Google started out pushing a search engine. Now they are into a whole host of different things, not the least of which is gaining the ire of Apple.

I think if MS can grow a set of truly massive solid steel clankers and rend complete control of the mobile OS from the carriers, they could own the market. They have the resources. They just need the focus and determination. They need to also overcome their failure of the Kin platform. Carriers probably don't feel secure enough with MS to trust any guarantees they may make about WP7 because of the Kin failure.

From what I've been seeing lately, MS is attempting to merge their mobile OS with the desktop PC OS and it looks like they are succeeding. This could lead them straight into an overwhelming marketshare because of both systems being completely compatible and tied together.
[General Topics] Award Tour:
Windows Phone's selling point, at least in the commercials, isn't about not using them but making it easier and thus faster to use resulting in less time on your phone to do basic things.
[General Topics] zavien:
actually if you look at the 'BIG PICTURE' android has not saturated the market at all. Since android simply designs an OS for the smart phones out there, i would have to say the companies backing android see the ingenuity of the platform there fore they integrate it into their phones and sell them. It's simply licensing that android does so if half a trillion companies want to license the OS how can it be androids fault to allow that?...... Do you see my point? The manufacturer is the primary cause since they tend to add to basic OS (for example sense with a large degree of bloatware) which depending on the phone specs either improves or F's off the phone the latter being the more common. It's up to the all stars here on this forum to smooth out the system bringing it back to droid. Which is pure open source simplicity with a few few jingles added. That is android and the fact it's killing the competition thats what you hate. Just live up to it hater-ism does not just begin and end with droid you guys are rampant now a days lmao

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------

very true thats a very keen statement and mature people will see your logic. But google does have chrome to phone, still in it's incipient stage but non the less have it. And as google+ gains momentum i do see MS taking a greater portion of the market share but between the two giants (android and MS) i more or less see apple being pushed to the background since they will forever not embrace the concept of open source systems. And yes google chrome is still definately a high speed beta program, high speed but still beta and as they iron that out, they will eventually come to the point where they merge it with mobile devices. And opp there goes the pong match
[General Topics] Gusar321:
LOL

(10 chars)
[General Topics] marcos.lennis:
Android was being developed about a year and a half before iOS and WP7. I think Google should be suing. Also, Apple as well as Microsoft are both scared of Android and the momentum it has gained. Apple and Microsoft are long known for making love in bed since the 80s. And today it is not an exception.

Grow up and innovate, compete, create, negotiate, etc, etc, etc...
[General Topics] freon1131:
i download now Windows 8 DevPreview. They added Metro style from wp7 to desktop OS. Looks nice..
[General Topics] Zmotocescu:
Very well pointed. Google bought Android before Apple and Microsoft started to have "innovative" thoughts.
[General Topics] Tone_:
;)

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=17725090&postcount=12
[General Topics] Gusar321:
And? Where's the part about "stealing" in there?
[General Topics] MartyLK:
That's not rational. It's like saying, at the beginning of the universe when atoms began to appear, humanity was in development because humanity would eventually come to be from those atoms.

Whether anything that was being developed matters is based on their outcome. Apple was first. Apple's development was enough that they were able to come to market with an actual product of development.

And from what is understood of Google's motives, they got into the smartphone biz to ward off an Orwellian nightmare from Apple....their statement. So that makes it a fact that Android never would have seen the light of day had Google not bought the development.
[General Topics] josephnero:
google and Android FTW
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Are you still going to claim you're *not* caught in Apple's RDF?
[General Topics] Tone_:
Whilst you are caught in Googles sandpit.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Show me the part about stealing. You are in no position to call me names or anything until you provide that.
[General Topics] 1stCentauri:
always Google, no doubt
[General Topics] dazza9075:
Not sure what you lot are arguing about but actually WM was first, by a long margin, and with the demise of WM to the sands of time so too has the only true "Smartphone"

Everything since has been a bit more dumbed down but the concept was very much Microsofts idea, taken and modified by others, in some cases they have made significant improvments, in others they have stepped back a few steps but thats the nature of change, the reality is, who gives a ****? there are 4 OSs out there to choose from, all are different, all are the same, none are hands down "better" all have better aspects
[General Topics] Tone_:
Duh!

I didn't think these different concepts would be so hard to understand, yes google did deprive sun/oracle from the benefits of java and the judge surmised as much, the question is did they wilfully do this - if they did then they may get an injunction against google to stop using it.

Oracle should win this easily if their greed doesn't bite them in the ass.

You might want to read that link to fosspatents before posting a reply...

Oracle v. Google mediation: Larry meets Larry to talk tons of money http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-thursday-i-reported-that-odds-were.html
[General Topics] Perperz:
Google, no question.
[General Topics] largemansmay:
Do these lawsuits ever accomplish anything other than lining the pockets of lawyers?
[General Topics] Gusar321:
There's no explanation of how and where exactly Oracle has been deprived of the use or benefit of their technology, not in your post, not in that link. Just saying they were deprived does not make it so. Try again.
[General Topics] StrikaX8:
Symbian has kind of died ever since smart phones boomed (iOS, Android)..
[General Topics] Tone_:
Not sure there is any point with your bias but lets try again..

So Google decided not to bother negotiating for a license they just took Java hoping they would not get caught.

Judge suspects Google of having preferred "to roll the dice on possible litigation rather than to pay a fair price"

Google may very well be found by a court of law to have infringed willfully, which would also have to be taken into consideration by regulators.

infringed willfully - Taken - Deprived Sun of Money for Java
[General Topics] Gusar321:
All definitions I looked at describe "deprive" as taking something away from someone. So you're saying Sun had money for Java and Google took that money away?

No. This is about Google's use of Java (or actually, using Java-like tech, because what Google is using is Dalvik, which works a bit differently). But the definition of stealing (which is the main point of this discussion) is: the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently.

In this case, to qualify as stealing, Google using Dalvik would have to have the result that Oracle couldn't make use of or benefit from Java anymore. And now I ask you, is Oracle still benefiting from Java? If yes, then no stealing happened.
[General Topics] Tone_:
Do you really think I am insinuating there was a pile of oracle's cash and google have some how taken it? No I am saying it looks like they took something that did not belong to them and are going to have to pay and even pi billion dollars may not be enough!

Your trumped up description of benefit is ridiculous, and to answer your question - No Oracle aren't benefiting from Google Java license because:

Google decided not to bother negotiating and paying for a license they just took Java hoping they would not get caught.

The judge suspects Google of having preferred "to roll the dice on possible litigation rather than to pay a fair price"

Google may very well be found by a court of law to have infringed willfully.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
What you wrote here is not an answer to my question. I asked if they're benefiting from Java. Because if Google stole it, they wouldn't be able to.
[General Topics] Tone_:
Rather than me answer a loaded question, let me ask you two things that the courts are pondering:

Would Oracle have benefited from Google paying for a license that was offered and the Google engineers said they needed?

Would Oracle lose the benefits of a Java license by what Andy Rubin suggested, and doing Java anyway and defend our decision?
[General Topics] Gusar321:
I don't see the relevance of those questions in regards to the discussion of stealing. I also don't see how my question is "loaded", and will make the bold claim that you're attempting a cop-out by not wanting to answer it.
[General Topics] Tone_:
You are the one coping out by not answering my questions, because if you did answer them with any sort of truthfulness you would be admitting that Oracle should benefit from Google legally acquiring a license that they have stated on record they need for android.

Do you work for google?

In answer to your question - No Oracle are not benefiting from Java as they should because some unscrupulous companies are not licensing it.
[General Topics] JeramyEggs:
D@MN, when did this get so out of control? News flash, they all copy off of one another. Car companies do it. T.V. companies do it. Restaurants do it. To have a truly original idea would only be accomplished if we were in the beginning of time example from earlier. Hell, religion has been doing it for thousand years with crazy zealots just like this. I think people who argue this stuff would have made it big during the dark ages. Sounds like someone doesn't like Google, and wants to punish them. How can someone argue this knowing Microsoft came to be from "stealing from apple.". When apple stole from zerox. Who gained these ideas from some of the people who built up the next systems. Isn't what Google did exactly what Microsoft did in the early 80’s? Now that you guys have been fighting, can we just realize that we're all here for the same reason, and become friends? By the way, i have played with all of these mobile phones. They all have their shortcomings. Ever have to dig through a thousand folders on Ms phone to find a picture. The walls around apple close us off, not keep us safe. And android updates so fast that they don't know if it will work on all there devices like they want. Have a good night.

By the way, I still don't like apple, but because they insult everyone who doesn't own an apple. You ever hear the other two making fun of you because you carry another os.?
[General Topics] jessenin420:
Android is way better!!! :-)
[General Topics] mospeada71:
yes better and MS lol!! :D:D
[General Topics] sygeek:
For now, this may help - http://www.technologyreview.in/blog/mimssbits/27194/
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Google is not the only company in the world. There are tons of others. Among them plenty which are licensing Java tech. So Oracle is benefiting from it. Which means no stealing happened.

Ah, the ultimate ad-hominem. How nice.

Umm. lol? So Java would be thriving if Google paid licensing, but because Google didn't, Oracle isn't benefiting from it? That is what you're trying to say here, that the well-being of Java depends solely on Google. I'm sorry (no I'm not), but that's beyond ridiculous.
[General Topics] Tone_:
So you are reverting to the straw man argument - who said thriving?

Google were offered a license from sun for or a measly 300 million dollars.

I am not sure if you are trolling or you really cannot see how Sun would have benefited from Google paying a small price for a license.

They didn't and they are going to get hammered for taking what was not theirs to take after stating on record they needed a license.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You do still remember this discussion is about stealing?
[General Topics] Tone_:
You do remember this about Oracle why not take it to the oracle thread?

Stealing:the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Yes, and there are plenty of companies out there which are licensing Java tech from Oracle, meaning Oracle is making use of or benefiting from it. Oracle could not make use of or benefit from Java if someone had stolen it. So, no stealing happened.

No need to take this anywhere, the discussion is over.
[General Topics] Tone_:
We will see how many $$$$$$$'s Oracle get from Google, which will prove Google benefited from Java rather than Sun/Oracle.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Probably very many, in the range of at least a few hundred million. But Google's licensing issues are completely irrelevant to the discussion of stealing.
[General Topics] Tone_:
Taking something that is not yours and then not paying for it is tantamount to stealing.

I thought the discussion was over, lol.

Just show you are not true to your word.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
Let's repeat the dance again: No, it's not. The act of taking is not enough. This act needs to have an intent and a consequence. It's right there in the definition, in the part you conveniently always leave out.

Yes, you caught me. And now you're king of the world!!!! Go you!!! LOL
[General Topics] Tone_:
Well we shall see because there is good chance they had intent and willfully infringed on Sun,

An email sent by Google VP of Mobile Andy Rubin, where he states:

“If Sun doesn’t want to work with us, we have two options: 1) Abandon our work and adopt MSFT CLR VM and C# language – or – 2) Do Java anyway and defend our decision, perhaps making enemies along the way.”

Judge Alsup’s response was:

“This would be a Soviet-style negotiation: “What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable.”… The test is not what the infringer actually bargained for but what reasonable parties would have negotiated. Google may have simply been brazen, preferring to roll the dice on possible litigation rather than to pay a fair price.”

Go on Gus, twist your way out this one.....
[General Topics] peterpatrickgo:
same as me... there are always so many lawsuits between those companies on patent issues....:(
[General Topics] yahoowizard:
They should just team up together and rape Apple. Microsoft already did it and shut down Macs and Google's working on taking down iOS and iPhones now. Good stuff.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You're talking about a different intent than the definition of stealing talks about.
[General Topics] cougargt:
You've got to be kinding me.

I can't believe I wasted my time reading this thread. Some of the crap posted is insane. I have disliked Apple long before it's iphone. They have a nasty habit of forgetting about you unless you upgrade to their latest version of last years ideas. They couldn't come up with a new idea to save their lives. Microsoft isn't much better, it just takes a little longer before they dump your butt into the ether. My first smart phone as a palm (can even remember the damn name of it) and that was before MS got into the market. But MS could have lock the market tight if they only told people about it. (damn WM did it all) And now we're all stuck with stupid phones. And that's just the way it is. "Smart" phones are gone. Not any of what they shove at us is a true business class phone anymore. Just pick the one "YOU" think isn't as dumb as the rest and be happy.

But this is about patents so who cares.

And holy hell.....Intellectual property is property just the same. It's not a solid object, but it can be stolen just the same.
[General Topics] Gusar321:
You say you wasted time reading this thread, and yet it seems you got nothing out of it. Yeah, you wish it was the same. And so does in particular the media industry. But you know what they say, "if wishes were horses..."
[General Topics] tyler79durdan:
hmmm, subscribed
[General Topics] MartyLK:
I hope Google rips MS a new one. MS should be ashamed to do what they do. They have to leech off of successful companies to survive.
[General Topics] cougargt:
They've been doing a damn good job of it...... Leeching I mean...
[General Topics] Tone_:
Oh a different type on intent... :p

They were intent on taking it and di so..

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

Google Android before the iPhone release...

Before (Blackberry Clone)

After (iClone)

Well you know what they look like, as they are getting banned all over the place..
[General Topics] Zeze21:
I don't get why they just can't join forces to kick apple out of the game...