yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S II General] Endoran:
I did mean no disrespect to the hard work that capable developers put into their ROMs. I realize it takes a lot of work and knowledge. However, in the whole grand scheme of things though I'd say even the most dedicated and knowledgeable developer is still a "tweaker". No matter how much he/she has changed the fact is that it is still (hell I'll throw out a BS percentage) 99% Samsung stock. And that's probably being generous. And if just changing a few labels and colors isn't what goes into MOST ROMs then why is there a split if MOST ROMs are "original"?

I understand you meant "most real ROM releases", not as that most roms are original but rather that those other "ROMs" aren't "real". Correct? Then they should be MOVED to the theme forum. So why again, please, was the forum split? Because some "themers" were masquerading as "developers"? That's a slap in the face to some I'm sure no doubt, and especially will slow the progress of ROM development overall. Combine the sections again, the good always rise to the top, that's how it is ON EVERY OTHER FORUM HERE and it works just fine. All of this is in actuality irrelevant due to the previously mentioned real reason why the forum was split. And if it wasn't due to favoritism/good ole' boys club, then someone really f'ed up in the PR department here at XDA. And as already mentioned some ROMs in the only "change[d] a few labels and colours" dev section are actually real ROMs with original content equal to other ROMs in the "original" dev section.

Sure, fine, split sections, but do it fairly and logically. Labels are powerful things, that's why I said this was a PR f-up not to mention an organizational one too. Words like "original" imply elite and those not in the original section imply lesser than. You see what I'm saying here? Yeah it's semantics but everything is semantics. So if this wasn't motivated by greed/favoritism/good ole' boy club (which is a stretch to say that it wasn't) than this split was done in a horribly infantile and disrespectful manner. I'm sorry to break any devs bubbles but this forum is here for the USER. Everything is about the USER. Who would use your awesome ROM if it weren't for the USER? Any changes to this forum should be done with the users in mind because that in turn will naturally help the developers.
[Galaxy S II General] uppon2:
I am a heavy flasher. I believe that credit should be given where it is deserved for each ROM. I flash almost every ROM in hope to find something unique that really suits my style.

It might be a theme, script, kernel, tool or something else useful (original or not) - It's the way it is presented to me and the way the ROM works as it has been collaborated that makes me a happy user

For example I am a big fan of VR because it always seems to give me less force closes once I use titanium to restore all of my apps but the standard theme is very plain and boring so it leaves me wanting to theme it

In some cases after flashing said theme it might then cause force closes, leaving me just replacing framework files pre flash in order to have it the way I like it.

I am soon swayed by a new ROM that comes out by the general look of it and if it provides me with less force closes after apk restore and theme selection and if it still runs as smooth I would prefer to use that regardless of if it is just a repacked ROM

I use a lot of ROMs and it is annoying having to go through 2 sections in order to see them all - It gives me a negative feeling having to look through an unfamiliar area with outcast ROMs. For what purpose?

Implement your damn rules before offending and making life harder for Developers and Users alike. How about having more effective moderation instead of trying to change the scheme.
[Galaxy S II General] NeoPhyTe.x360:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=16205643&postcount=186

https://twitter.com/#!/VillainROM/status/98306513713635328

I quote it in case of be deleted, VillainROM Tweet 2 Aug. 10.17 am:

What are the interests of Villain Team, to keep forums separated?
[Galaxy S II General] El TeKi:
I LoL'd!

I think that's a P0wn3d!
[Galaxy S II General] leftovermagic:
TLDR...

however, I vote that we merge this thread with the "Original poll - merging original android development and android development" thread that I'm about to start...

but only so I can create a poll asking whether or not we should merge or un-merge the "merging original android development and android development" threads about merging the forums.:cool:
[Galaxy S II General] lynx2k50:
haha okay that wasnt a good idea to put it on twitter :D

Another News, maybe i will be baned but i can say what i think.

Today i got i PM from lufc, Forum Moderator.

I posted it but i cant find the thread (deleted or am i too silly?).

Okay. Pulser i like you. Nice guy, nice Roms, nice support so dont take it to personally.

I dont think that you should be a Mod here. The reason is simply. You are a great dev but you will ever prefer your one Rom. And thats not unintelligible.

All thinks that will be posted by the Villain Team here will be prefered.

I'm calling all XDA members who are intersted in a good forum with nice devs and support and without discrimination to other devs, posts or opinions. Say your opinion if you dont like things.​

Sorry for my bad english.
[Galaxy S II General] NeoPhyTe.x360:
although he wasn't moderator, villain team will still being friend of moderation and admins.

I have nothing against pulser, and I think there are good people too in VT, but things are clear now in this topic.
[Galaxy S II General] lynx2k50:
Have quoted you twitter post at the first post.

Thanks for info.
[Galaxy S II General] Endoran:
Well sir, I find your post offensive. I gave you constructive criticism but you chose to focus on the emotional implications of your actions. You (XDA) split two groups apart with one subjugated by the other. I stand by my statement and so do 2 other users who +1'd it. Your feelings? YOUR feelings? Lol. You're the one who made this change, maybe you should have thought of other peoples feelings before you acted. Want more constructive criticism? Look at the poll!!! I'm done.

Sent from my GT-I9100
[Galaxy S II General] NeoPhyTe.x360:
Everything is clear, when you enter to web from mobile, only appears one dev SGS2 in portal front. Which? Check yourselfs, and check where do the link goes..
[Galaxy S II General] lynxboy:
Personally, I was disappointed to see the split when it occurred, and after reading the 'explanation' post, had an inclination that there was a bit of egotism involved. At the end of the day, the 'original' section is filled with ROM's based on Samsung Firmware releases, so technically they aren't original, regardless of the 'tweaks' or modified kernels (even CF Root is based on the stock kernel package) et cetera, et cetera.... I don't recall a mass poll being undertaken before the split, and if it was a response to 'user demand', then where is the action on other issues such as the disorganised themes/apps section and the misuse of tags. All things users have asked for repeatedly.

Sad to see as I've never seen Android Development split in any other major handset board, even those containing devs such as Cyanogen (truly original development).

To me it seems that certain influential devs are suffering serious ePeen issues, and can only gratify their ego by believing they are 'original' at the cost of other hardworking Devs being 'labelled' as not worthy......

Regards.
[Galaxy S II General] phunkycow:
+1

Couldn't have said it better myself (because English is not my native language of course! :p).
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
The most disappointing to me is the fact, that besides all argueing that things are not set yet and one is still working on / looking for solutions an obviously wrong decision nevertheless has not been corrected to date and the separation is still lingering on...
[Galaxy S II General] tigerfire25:
Only one Android developement. But if you must make it two then I think one should be developement and other stable Roms. Just sharing my opinion. No critism & not supporting any critism against mods/admins. They are the best and most helpfull people arround xda. And to those that say 'Why only SGS2?' answer is simple...... They had to start from some where and then see the responce.

I laso think that admins have the ultimate right to favouratise opinion of some over others. As most of people arround here are noobs like me not devs.
[Galaxy S II General] MikeChannon:
Don't want to get side-tracked here. I was not objecting to your expressing a view about whether a split is good or bad, only that you expressed that view by implying it was done with inappropriate motivations on our part. We were responding to Developer demand that the purposes of and differences between types of ROM was getting lost in a sea of ROMs all mixed together (and the views of these developers are at least as important as the views of others). Attributing us with "Nazi" intentions in doing this seemed inappropriate. This thread, following the split is allowing reactions to the split and based on a final analysis we'll find a way forward.

Indeed, though we need to keep in mind that you cannot implement something and then change it around every other day. Sometimes you need to let the dust settle. In this case we have a situation where the majority of ROMs will not fall into the "original" category and it will not be surprising to find a majority in the poll that says they should all be lumped together again. Now it's certainly valid to hold that point of view, but it doesn't solve the issue that is important for some, and that is, knowing what sort of ROM is being offered. Suggestions about labelling ROMs have been given or some standard way of describing them in post one and even as above a different kind of split between "stable" and "development".

We need to face the fact that there are relatively few "original" ROMs and based on these many others arise. At a time when there are attractions for Developers of these "original" works elsewhere, we need to take their views seriously, because their work is the base for all our other derivative ROMs. Ignore them and the core of xda-devs is lost and these developers move elsewhere. In fact I notice elsewhere, that not only are the works of such developers separated out but they are given their own specific development forums.

The point that we are trying to resolve is that unless we protect the core development work and the associated developers, then other places will!! This is a serious issue and we want to remain in the forefront of break-throughs in development, not have that done elsewhere and we become mere leeches from other sites. It needs to be obvious to members and the wider world when we have created something original. That does not mean that all the work done by other developers that builds on the "original" work is relegated to second place. In reality, it is the derivative work that most users will actually end up putting on their phone.
[Galaxy S II General] JJEgan:
Thanks Mike well said this is a development forum after all .

jje
[Galaxy S II General] godutch:
To me it really does seem there is some favoritism, some devs are apparently more important than others even if they do similar things and your end results is that those devs not favored but also hard working and talented will just move away.

But really let me tell you how it looks by looking at some example roms, Pulser_g2 (a senior moderator)'s Villain ROM was the first custom rom for the SGS2, after that came LitePro's Lite'ning ROM, the second custom rom for the SGS2. Now after the split LitePro's rom was moved the the derivative rom section whilst Villain Rom remained in the original rom development section. By implication this means that for LitePro's rom not to be considered original it had to be a ripoff from some other rom, since there was only one other rom (Villain Rom) LitePro must have ripped off Pulser_g2. Although more likely Lite'ning ROM was much more popular than Villain ROM and Pulser_g2 got jealous and used his influence to degrade LitePro's rom to a secundary forum, so his rom would be center stage again. The tweet NeoPhyTe.x360 quoted also suggests this.
[Galaxy S II General] seshmaru:
Or maybe once you stop polluting XDA with your stupid, you would learn that you can compare files, if you could do this then you'd realise Lite'ning ROM is nothing but a blown up theme. But hey you actually think NeoPhyTe is a developer. Which pretty much proves how much you know about development on a developers forum.
[Galaxy S II General] veyka:
As a relatively long member of xda I would say that this is not a new problem, the age old issues around what is original, who made what first, roms that are just other people's work with just the serial numbers filed off and passed off as original work!

Roms that should just have been themes.

This was a problem back in the windows mobile days.

I have seen devs who have made some great work pushed off the forum by users being demanding and posting endless stupidity, how would you feel if you put your heart into some work, and shared it with people, just to find them wanting to use it without bothering to read a few posts?

The whole thing can turn what is a hobby into something more draining than a job.

XDA is alive, xda thrives off the people who put there hearts into building cool things, because they can, and if we can't find a way to make being here and developing for us fun, and rewarding we will lose the people and thus the reason that we are here anyway.

The rom split, which seems a drastic and sudden action is more the product of many years of the same old problems.

Maybe newer people who haven't seen the same thing play out many many times, would just seen it as some do as someone, who happens to be both a dev and a mod reaction to supposedly protect themselves.

But we have had a rom released that's just someone else rom with a theme, so it has happened here, so that's why I think this forum has been the testing ground.

It has been said that they are working on a rom feedback and database tool which in the longterm will hopefully fix this.

XDA is also run by volunteers who are giving there time for nothing, and i dont think anyone had made a paycheck from xda.

Tl;dr

XDA needs to look after developers, everything is going to upset someone.

There is no conspiracy.

Old problems, old drama, new forums
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
@ first part

Ok, this is important, at least for me. For the 1. time you (xda) admit that action was taken on some DEVELOPERS demand. In the first post concerning this issue - by svetius if I remember right - you (xda) justified your step with feedback from users. Quite a difference to me and the reason to get really annoyed...

@ second part

I understand the difficulty with copycats. Just answer me one simple question:

Why is VillainRom or Nitr8 in the original section and Litening or SolarFlare in the non original? The latter not being put into the appropiate section for weeks already btw (at least in LitePros case) which is the second reason for me to remain angry.
[Galaxy S II General] AllGamer:
IMO i'd like to see more of these on the other devices as well

it'll be very clean an efficient to know which ones are REAL development, and which are just customized modified versions of existing development, or as in the professional field in I.T. we call it "Software Re-Packaging"

I'll definitely vote to keep it as is, as it sets a really good example to the quality of releases we want to see here
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
Sorry still blabla. Please answer my simple question instead.
[Galaxy S II General] Archer:
@zikarus That's actually a bit rude mate. He was just joining in the conversation. Just cos he's a mod doesn't mean he can answer for another one, and you didn't ask him the question.

@Everyone People need to chill. This is between the devs and mods. We should just go where the good stuff is, which is now 2 places and not 1.

Boohoo. Life is soooooo hard ;)
[Galaxy S II General] veyka:
1) developer demand and for the benefit of everyone who doesn't want to see highly skilled devs forced out, for example some of the cm devs don't check xda anymore as much as they used to due to the tiny signal to noise ratio, all useless posts and no helpful debugging etc help.

Benefit to users who you would bet would start screening and leaving if the devs stopped producing stuff for there shiny tool, theres your user demand, its not direct, but it's there.

2) he said that the criteria are being worked on, and that clear guidelines will be published soon.

Also any dev that wants there thread moved can contact a mod and get them moved.

Has lightpro asked a mod for there thread to be moved? Has he complained publicly about it? So far all I have seen are lighting rom users complaining, nothing from the dev.

So far it seems to be a vocal minority who have a problem.
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
Not meant to be rude just tired of posts by "officials" just trying to pull the rope into one direction instead of clearing up things. And my question is directed towards "xda" after all, not just one of the Mods/Admins...

Fyi: AllGamer has been part of the discussion from the very beginning in the very first thread...
[Galaxy S II General] Archer:
I'm so tempted, but not gonna go off topic and turn this into a conversation. Personally, I believe this to be between the mods and the devs, as I said earlier, so I'm out of here. This thread is a bomb waiting to go off and I have no interest in that.
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
As said many times before: it is not LitePro / Neo who has to explain or prove anything. XDA has moved LitePros and Neos thread and they should explain for what reason this particular action was taken before any rules and criteria have been settled yet.
[Galaxy S II General] veyka:
It should not be to hard for a developer to get there rom categorised correctly, it would even help them attract users who more understand what they are flashing.

Again are you a developer? Do you know if they have contacted the mods?

As users the pressing issue is to be able to find what we want or need.

And for xda to keep the majority of the high quality developer talent we have happy.
[Galaxy S II General] seshmaru:
You aren't a dev and know nothing about devving, you don't even know what interaction between dev and xda there was. Please stop spilling your idiotic uninformed opinion into waters where they do not belong.
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
@veyka

Again:

It does not matter a bit how easily or not a thread my be moved by demand.

XDA has moved and thereby degraded LitePros and Neos thread in the opinion of many users - me included - and they have to explain for what reason this particular action was taken before any rules and criteria have been settled yet.

Besides that Neo has already written that his thread was not moved back though demanded. Obviously your statement that such a move could be handled easily is wrong.
[Galaxy S II General] zikarus:
You have convinced me - lol

The issue and the questions are all about information...
[Galaxy S II General] dh2311:
I prefer it because it helps you find ROM's that offer something different, rather than just themed.

But I would love to see android development separated into;

Kernels

Stock Android Roms

Samsung Roms

Hacks/Mods

Other
[Galaxy S II General] veyka:
Im an idiot ignore me :)

It would be interesting to know what the reasoning behind it is then, I couldn't comment on his work as I have not looked at it.

I did not mean to make out that I was quoting cold hard fact, just my opinion based on the facts in front of me at the time, I would admit to not having read every post in every thread in the SGS2 forum, work and all that!

As has been said, and as far as i remember i agreed with, better defined public guidelines should be in place with regards to labelling and sorting roms, I would also like to see strongly enforced uniform thread tagging guidelines put into place, throughout the site (a thread tag being something like [ROM][KERNEL][ETC]).
[Galaxy S II General] wacky.banana:
I read this and it confirmed yet again how far XDA has strayed from its original and true roots.

XDA is formally known as XDA-Developers. This community started many years ago through a number of gifted and talented people coming together with a shared aim of hacking and developing around devices manufactured by HTC.

Over the years that talent and the ability to continuously break new ground, from a development perspective, has been the core of XDA's success.

In recent times it has become very obvious to the XDA hierarchy that developers, who are our crown jewels, have been finding it increasingly difficult to operate in a place that was always designed for them. Some have had enough and have left.

Without developers, XDA is nothing. Without XDA appreciating and working with its crown jewels then we will fail very quickly. We are now taking steps to redress the imbalance brought about by the flood of individuals to these fora who have nothing to contribute, have no understanding or respect for our values and our history and are offensively demanding in the extreme.

The actions we are now taking, including the splitting of development fora that has created much angst amongst a few, is part of our drive to work with and to protect our crown jewels,our gifted and talented people who are the lifeblood of this site.

No matter how many individuals shout out about these changes, it will not deflect us from our prime objective, outlined above.

They say the proof of the pudding is always in the eating so we will put that to the test:

If the individual whose post I part quoted above were to leave through the open door of XDA, would anyone miss him? The answer is a resounding NO. Would his leaving have a negative impact on the site and what we do here? You can answer that one for yourselves.

Lets turn this around and test the other way. If a well known and talented developer with a massive following on here were to up sticks and leave because we did not do enough to ensure that the environment here was good enough and stable enough for them to want to give of their free time and talent for nothing, would that impact this site? Hell Yes. Would they be missed? Absolutely YES. You would have to be 2 cents short of a dollar to think otherwise.

Users have to face up to the reality of where we are at and its simple; this is a site for developers, always was and always will be. These talented individuals are our lifeblood and we will do anything and everything to ensure they remain here in an environment that is conducive to them.

If that is an uncomfortable truth for some then the obvious way forward is there, writ large on the wall. I don't have to spell it out.

WB
[Galaxy S II General] bilboa1:
Does not matter. Both forums have same threads, no one seems to really enforce the rules. It's just like the zillion of GPL things without source even if you request it.

They will bother only if it becomes too noisy.

So might as well have just one forum.
[Galaxy S II General] seshmaru:
I was talking about zikarus sir, I agree with everything you said. And no I am not a master dev, although I have done some devving. But I have been around long enough and know what I am doing and have contributed my time and help to XDA and it's members.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
More of this **** again? How marvellous. Separating proper development from themes and copycats is a good idea and that's why the XDA staff did it. It's done, stop the god damn whining about it.

Like I said in the past, XDA isn't a democracy and it's a site for development. You peons complaining contribute nothing other than noise and worthless whine threads like this. In fact threads like this just prove how misinformed and naive you are and more to the point, they're all created by either users who find two forums difficult (morons) or developers that belong in the themes and rip-offs section.
[Galaxy S II General] zelendel:
+1. Agreed........
[Galaxy S II General] soraxd:
its retarded to have two, harder to find stuff.. merge them