yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S II Android Development] CommanderThor:
That is TOTALY subjective! A thing such delicate(which rom to put in original thread) MUST NOT be based on same subjective rule! NO WAY! Expecialy if it is a subjective thing decided by only few people in charge.

You have 2 different kinds of "lesser" roms. One is ROM, that is based on a work of another custom ROM also on XDA, that IS a copy with modifications, this can be objectively decided by mods.

Another thing is ROM that simple has too few modifications to be worth. In this case that is totaly subjective! And can not be decided by anthing else than voting system.

So if this experiment is realy juhst a way to organize ROMs its okay, but it can not stay this way, splitted.

If you want to organize forum is not the way! You need to create a webpage for SGS 2 ROMS, which is moderated by a mod, and there you need to have short description for every ROM and link to thread. Also a "based on" flag. And a voting system, but that is much work, you sure you want to change how XDA forum works, just to have ROMS organized?
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Lennyuk:
So in basic concept we are in agreement?

Providing the mods can lay down some proper objective based criteria for the split would people me happier with the 2 forum concept?

(mods will be reading and noting what I say and your replies, so in the interest of bettering this forum be honest with yourself and not stupid with the replies)
[Galaxy S II Android Development] CommanderThor:
No i am in agreement to organize ROM, NOT split them. Lets talk figuratively. You have rating form ROMs 1-10 star. So what, you put 1-5 stars in one forum and 6-10 stars in second? Than devs of ROMs with 5 star want to also be higher in you make it 1-4 and 5-10? You cant, THERE IS NO STRICT LINE TO SPLIT INTO 2.

If you want to organize, you make it a voting system, and put higher votet higher, simple.

This also means split between ROMs and "everything else"in development.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] David Roosendaal:
To me the split is not logical. It is also not done consistently.

1 example: there are ORIGINAL (Samsung) roms/kernel threads in the 'original development' area. Wrong.

I think anyone who goes thru the trouble of modifying -in ANY way- a (or any) ROM, so I (as a simple user) can flash such ROM if I so choose, should be in the same/single forum/section.

I do agree with earlier posters that the ROM the mod was based on MUST be mentioned. Either it being a Samsung ROM or someone elses. Doesn't matter.

Credits are due where credits are due. THAT is something the moderators can and should watch maybe even verify.

Splitting and not doing that accurately is even worse than how it was.

I don't know what triggered the change but I think the team should reconsider.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] mynameisjon:
Look at the activity that's in the "derivative" forum now. The devs have complained.

VillainRom is "original" because it was the first custom rom?

What does VillainRom have that a thousand other ROMs from other devices don't?

De-odexed?

Root Access?

Extended Power Menu?

Cosmetic Changes?

Stop Home Button from waking phone?

All these are features that every other phone has already had in custom roms before the SGS2 came out.

Complaining about a quadrant script is probably the only thing original about VillainRom.

Don't even compare Villain with CM or MIUI. Build your ROM from source and then start talking about originality. At the end of the day it's still a Samsung ROM that's been hacked apart and put together again, same as every other ROM save for it being "the first".

If those devs who pushed for this division want to claim "originality" so much, perhaps they should work for Apple. I heard they're original and invented everything, they even invented inventing.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] pathologo:
What an attitude! You are a joke.

*plonk*
[Galaxy S II Android Development] jlevy73:
Man you come across as a serious ass. You need to check that condescending attitude at the door. Feel free to do that on your own site but here you're just 1 of 4 million members.

Humor me for a second with what the definition of an original Rom is. It's like asking whether Tony Blair was a good PM or not. Really comes down to who you ask. What makes VillainRom original? So you've taken Samsung's firmware deodexed it and optimized apk's. And at the time of this writing VillainRom doesn't even use it's own kernel (thanks Chainfire). Wow, how original. If you go through all the Rom's at XDA that have deodexed and optimized APK's that be about 99.9% of them. And there is nothing original about that since Jesusfreke showed the Android world how to do that years ago. So really the only thing unique about VillainRom are VRtweaks, and even most of those are someone else's work.

To put VillainRom in the same sentence with CM is making a mockery of Cyanogen. By the time CM7 is retired there will be over a thousand unique commits. And if LitePro was a moderator I'm sure VillainRom would be in the derivative Rom's and you'd be crying.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] MicioMax:
What to say more ?

+1000
[Galaxy S II Android Development] tomj777:
Nowt constructive here with discussion about which ROM is more original... The tone highlights for me the problem that was created with the experiment.

One thing already notifies us mortal users of which is which and that is, as mentioned, the order of posts in the forum and the reply count. You can easily tell those that the users deem 'lesser' because of the way in which they sink through the pages.

IMHO this whole tea cup storm (still matters, however small in the scheme of things) could have been avoided by a little user help for the mods (identify plagurism) and the adoption of the HD2 thread naming convention.

Regarding my choice of first I9100 ROM, i selected based on the dev teams passion, maturity, responses (user focus) and thread participant decency.

I browsed a few days with my new phone whilst ORD took hold and made my choice. I will play elsewhere, probably, but right now I am using Pulsar's (and teams) work to expand my knowledge. I suspect that if I have questions they would be warmly received.

I like the recently announced democratic ROM database.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] CamoGeko:
Their own fault for purchasing the wrong phone. Lol

Transmitted from a Galaxy far far away via XDA telepathy.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] tbong777:
Agree...100% Seems everyone and their brother wants to be a developer but they begin not with Samsung's release but with another Developer's release throw on a theme or tweak make up a fancy name and wait for the "donations and "thank you" reps to roll in" and they belong in a separate thread until they have proven they have enough of a following to be a "recognized developer" though longevity, downloads, and thread post counts, as well as a reputation for passing along correct information about their work ie, honest benchmarks for those who consider otherwise useless benchmarks important.

Cyanogen is no different from Cognition or Villian just because it's aim may be to completely wipe the manufacturer off the phone to add features. It's a custom ROM to a greater degree than Cognition and Cognition is a "custom" ROM to a greater degree than Villian (which to my understanding is basically a base ROM plus tweaks)

But IMHO all of them could rightly be considered "original direct from Samsung" and further developed by recognized developers who do earn and belong in a separate thread. Some of us don't have any interest in Cyanogen or Miui. We don't mind a Samsung base. We prefer the development and improvement of that base rather than a complete do over for a few features that may or may not be available in the Market for a few dollars. We believe the hardware works well with the Manufacturers FW but can be improved upon.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] zikarus:
Well at least the quoted sentences above make clear that you seem to understand that the mods decision to separate the development section is far from being based on objective criteria and therefore lacks a proper justification. Until a new form of thread organization is found the actual decision still needs to be withdrawn.

The latter being even more overdue since the mods obviously tried to fool users by giving wrong reasons for their decision from the very beginning: originals vs. copycats never was the point. That is what is so annoying btw....
[Galaxy S II Android Development] blue265:
It would be nice if the XDA app would show the two different dev forums. As of now you can only see the one.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] CamoGeko:
TBH, would be very nice to get an update. I've been using the same version for over 3 months, still get random force closes on open sometimes.

:confused:
[Galaxy S II Android Development] UnRelevant:
Personally I think it's disgraceful. The way it's currently setup, many of the legitimate ROMs are called non original; or worse don't get seen. Secondly, ignoring the completely valid argument that EVERY ROM excluding CM and MIUIU (I can't spell it, sorry) is a DERIVATIVE of Samsung's original ROM. Granted, some bad apples are taking other roms, coloring it and calling it new; those folks need a kick in the seat but this goes a few steps beyond acceptable kickback: essentially you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Unless you plan to vet and move every ROM that is original (not just-color-change ROMs I mean) automatically - NOT requiring the dev to plead their case - then I see no reason for developers to hang around and take the insult.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
Absolutely second that
[Galaxy S II Android Development] tbong777:
That's what is hoped will happen!! The legitimate developers will stay and the others will leave. Recognized developers do not have an issue with this thread. Those are the developers who have been developing on multi platforms for awhile. They won't go anywhere and don;t seem to have an issue with the two threads.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
That is not completely true, Novek is a Recognized developer who has stopped developing ROMs at least for SGS II because of the split ... You are talking against reality.

Other Recognized developers are apparently per default placed in the thread with Original ROMs, so why should they bother with the split, they are on dry land with this.

Again Lite'ning ROM comes to mind ... The second ROM (after VillainROM) on XDA for SGS II, the first ROM based on firmware KG2 (I think it was), published the day before pulsar_G published his VillainROM based on KG2 (or same firmware).

In what way are Lite'ning ROM a "themed copy" of VillainROM? They are incompatible, you have to do a full wipe to run Lite'ning if coming from Villain.

In what way are VillainROM more original compared to Lite'ning ROM? Because of VRTweaks?

Is VRTweaks in reality not "just" an app for VillainROM, didn't it start out like that, that has been integrated into VillainROM.

Excuse me if I'm stepping out of bounce here, but honestly, to me the split still looks like it has absolutely nothing to do with "original" or "copy", but more with splitting up in those we know and/or like and those we don't know and/or don't like ... An Old-Boys-network, nothing more.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] UnRelevant:
I'm sorry.. you HOPE the good developers WILL LEAVE XDA??? Either you misread or misunderstand what I was stating: you are right now telling a good collection of developers who took the time with the original source to create something different - there are still plenty in the "other" thread - but only letting your buddies get into the new thread by default. That to me is a kick in the nuts to anyone that spends time developing anything on this forum.

Seriously, even Darky started out by modifying the Doc ROMs (and to a certain extent did so for most of the SGS1 frame). Yet today the Darky ROM is a good, respected, stands-on-it's-own-two-feet ROM. Point being, everyone starts somewhere; and if you start off by being antagonistic to a developer then why should they improve??

As for the low rate of complaints from developers, there are a few reasons off the top of my head I can think of:

The only ORIGINAL, non-derivitive roms are MIUI and CM. All others derive from Samsung's firmware.

They can't afford to host their own - so they just take the knock

It sounds petty when you think about it, considering the other two points.

Bingo.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] tomj777:
Remove "Samsung Galaxy S II I9100" from your xda app favorites and re-add it. Both forums will be visible
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
How about when you are on Compact view in your PC browser?

It only states one Android Development forum under Samsung Galaxy S II I9100, and that direct you to Galaxy S II Original Android Development?
[Galaxy S II Android Development] killerjohn:
The Way: pulser_g2 is a "Senior Moderator", LitePro is a "Senior Member" ;)

And the User Experience is almost zero, since the split because I need to check 2 forums instead of one... The strange thing is that in HD2 forums there was REAL, insane development and no dev cried about "original" and "derivative" stuff. There was only respected (correction: 'respected' and 'highly respected') developers and very, very happy users. About 5 people managed to have HSPL, CWM, Android from SD card, Android from NAND, on a Windows Phone. After that ~30 ROM came out, and they lived together. It was almost an utopia, and this with SGS2 is almost a nightmare...

There was a large discussion about "donations" and "customers" and about the users here are only junk, this site is only about the developers (Hacre was the loudest voice there, who is a respected developer, and I love his kernel). A little question: then what is the reason that the owners of XDA is running the site on a *100 server capacity because of the "users"? Maybe it's related to the donations? Or just because they are nice? Pleeeease... Hacre is the last man on Earth who can be described as "nice" xD He told that we, poor noob users should not complain about the forum structure, because we are nothing here. In this case please rename the User Experience Admin role please because it's misleading our small brains...
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Endoran:
If this is truly about money in the form of "donations" and fame then those devs who complained should be ashamed of themselves. This split in dev forums will just cause more confusion. And for what? Money? Jesus Christ. Go try to sell your ROM on the amazon or android market or make a different website where you can have a proper checkout "pay with paypal or credit card" option available. This whole thing stinks of greed and ego. Apple comes to mind with those words...
[Galaxy S II Android Development] tomj777:
I think the reality is not so clear cut. As with all collectives (for that is what I believe we, XDA, and are) there are many different views and ethos varies.

Sure, money is more important to some than others, like thanks. Likewise, some are happy to help when people struggle, others take the XDA version of RTFM. Some people are courteous, others bilious.

Most keep quiet and do their thing (meaning the passionate / vocal minorities are heard).

That is what it is (i.e. My view).

XDA is what we, as individuals, think it is.

If I am naive in some folks eyes, that's their stuff.

I was thinking today. Perhaps the split forum is ok if this one is thought of (and defined as) a place where people play / publish their experimental and lightly derivative ROM / Kernel work and then, when views reach a sufficient level, they move over to the 'big boys' forums.

Not sure about this, just something I was musing on.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Copaco:
You hit the nail on the head
[Galaxy S II Android Development] zikarus:
You know this is simply a lie. Does not seem that recognized developer Neo is very happy on the SG2 forum since his SolarFlare Rom thread has been moved... Even more ridicolous since his kernel still is in the original thread.

If not for the Litenin Rom alone this was the last proof needed that xda just tries to push / protect a few developers for whatever reasons but definitely not one reason based on objective criteria...
[Galaxy S II Android Development] pathologo:
In that case this says it all ...

Pure nepotism.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
Well, You're not the only one coming to that conclusion... Sad, but true :(
[Galaxy S II Android Development] GalaxyS!:
ooo this is so wrong to insult LitePro as a copycat!

I discover that even Darky's Rom uses LitePro's script to makes his Rom faster, and Darky's Rom is still on the official developers of the i9100??????! XDA Shame on you to put LitePro into a submap!!!!!!!
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Immortal Duck:
Hi im a fan of litening pro and its a shame that you put him in a sub map for calling him a copycat do you have anny proofs?!

I got an example/proof let's take "Darky's new rom" i have discoverd that he use's a script of litening rom and he's still in the original map.

How unfair is that?

I do not get the point why would you 'steal' someone's script/rom to make your own rom better.

Don't they have thier own idea's!

Litening rom is the best.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
Hold your horses, ficeto didn't "steal" anything, he duly acknowledge that the RAM tweaks is from Lite'ning.

That is not the problem here, the problem is the splitting of ROM forums itself, where "Our friends" is placed in the "Original forum" as true, good and skilled developers, and those "We" don't know and/or don't like, are placed as "copycat" developers ... There is no objectiveness in this split, and it is just so wrong and misplaced :(
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Amir_galaxy:
Would you please tell me what the name of this software which can download official samsung firmware???
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Immortal Duck:
Darky is just a copy cat because he copyed his script.

Did he asked for premission to use the script of litening pro?
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
I have no idea ... Do You?

I know that some developers don't mind others uses their code, as long as they are duly credited, others wants to be asked permission.

Do You know which take LitePro have on this?

And isn't the idea of this site to learn, to develop, to share?

And again, I have no interest in neither pointing fingers at nor defending anyone ... I like Lite'ning ROM very much myself, have used LitePro's ROM most of the time I have had my SGS II, and also donated to him ... my sole interest in this thread, is debating the split of SGS II ROM forum, and the injustice done to developer as ex. LitePro and others, declaring them as copycats.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] Cetin:
I dont like this too! Just to give my vote ;)

I can just theme a rom and put it in original. Who´s going to find out?!
[Galaxy S II Android Development] NeoPhyTe.x360:
Voted too.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] jnadie:
And... WHY???? Only AOSP and Cyano are ORIGINAL, the other ROMs are only modifications based in the original Samsung ROM... More o less modificated BUT NOT ORIGINALS!!!!

I don't understant, and I don't know whats the diference -for example- between Desire forum and SGS2 forum, in Desire's forum ther are only one "development", why is SGS2 diferent??????

Regards!
[Galaxy S II Android Development] recz:
I think it not make sense why you not seperate like this

Galaxy S II Rom

Galaxy S II Mod/Kernel/Dev/Fix/Others
[Galaxy S II Android Development] UnRelevant:
There are at least three ROM's in the "original" section that are either blatant copies or using scripts from other developers without appropriate permission or thanks given.

One of them has even been WARNED by the developer that they knew what was being done, and they did NOT approve. It is delivering an insult to every single developer that isn't part of the "in" crowd to force them into asking "please, pretty please can we be considered original" when mods and mods' mates are getting a get-out-of-jail-free card whether they're 'original' or not.

But I guess XDA mods will help out their mates first, and s**w the rest of us, or so it seems. I vote to boycott the XDA forums until this s**t is sorted out.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] killerjohn:
There already told that they don't care if ~3M users don't use the forums from tomorrow. I understand this, because it'll cause MUCH less server usage.

Splitting by kernels, mods, themes, ROMs? Nooo. Splitting by faces? Yeees.

Respect for all developers! (original and derivative ones too) :D
[Galaxy S II Android Development] zamana:
That's what we really need!

I guess we have more than 30 ROMs at the moment. What a mess!

Thanks.

Regards.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] lynx2k50:
I have created a poll.

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1198080

Would be nice if you visit the thread.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] UnRelevant:
Spill the vote over to other forums. If XDA ends up with no members except their buddies it will soon falter. It's run on public funding after all.

UPDATE: Every ROM you have ever used in the <spit> "Original Developers" </spit> needs to be replied to with your support in order to make this work. An example text:

"ALL: DO NOT USE THIS ROM UNTIL XDA FIX THEIR BLATANT "OLD BOYS" NETWORK. XDA Senior Mods have publicly declared war on users and developers alike; I propose we take up the challenge.."

If the SM's think that a few million users mean nothing, then surely this won't influence anyone..
[Galaxy S II Android Development] tbong777:
And those of us who DO support the site and developers with our wallets do prefer the separation of ROMs and allow the "recognized developers" their own space. I don't see any of the long term developers whining about this in the other thread.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] AkkerDK:
That is just a blatant lie, and You (ought to) know it, as You have been told that before ... At least one Recognized Developer (Novek) has stopped developing for SGS II because of the split, and at least one more (NeoPhyTe.x360) are absolutely not satisfied with the split ... Or the way it is done.

A lie don't get any more true just because it is repeted, so please stop Your damn lies.

Also, according to the statement from svetius, this should have nothing at all to do with allowing Recognized Developers to have their own space, it is said to be for parting original ROMs from copycats ... Do you have to be a Recognized Developer to make an original ROM? I think not!

So thats another lie from You ... Or rather, not entirely a lie offcourse, as I, and many others with me, only can see that the split is between "the in-crowd" and "the others" ... Not between Recognized Developers and others, not between Original ROMs and others, just between those "we" know and/or like and those "we" don't know and/or don't like.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] veyka:
How many are upset with the split vs how many are happy?

You are never going to make everyone happy, and in the end the problem is that people think that XDA cares about the end user or some person who copy/pastes and uses a zip program and some deodexing scripts.

Also read this thread
[Galaxy S II Android Development] the_scotsman:
And you think having an attitude like this is going to help anyone :rolleyes:

No wonder devs are leaving :rolleyes:

Oh and if any more of those messages are spammed in other ROM threads, they'll get a small vacation from xda.
[Galaxy S II Android Development] UnRelevant:
Answering this since you clearly have a bug up your.. nose..

And I guess your attitude is helping how exactly? Devs are leaving because clearly you have no respect for them. It seems you ARE afraid of what the users think ... otherwise you wouldn't be running after me deleting posts and threatening anyone who expresses their views.

At least your true colors are finally showing..