yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
if that is the case then why have the separate special dev area that you speak of?

I understand what you are trying to say though but XDA has changed and developed into something much more than it started off as, your failure to properly recognise this is probably at the very root of the problem here.

You want XDA to work one way but the sheer number of people using it isnt letting you develop in the way you want it to.

As I said earlier develop your Dev area more, allow more users in and set it up how XDA used to be and keep out the riff raff like me.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
lol, nice post, i'll resist getting into flame session though if you dont mind.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said here if you take out all of the bile. The problem is the the current situation on one hand puts money and praise in the wrong hands as you know and creates teddy bears with a sore heads like yourself at the other end so something has to change.

All we are trying to so here is discuss this, I am certainly not trying to dictate anything to the MODs and I think if they were they would just close the thread and move on.

Clearly yes, high level devs are whats more important here, however to suggest that in some way they need mollycoddling I think is an insullt, do you need this or do you just want people to respect you and your work, plus add the odd donation here and there to keep you in the pub?, I think the latter.

I don't think the symbiont nature or "dev" vs "user" should be pushed aside as much as you are suggesting, products need customers, dont piss off your customers but keep you staff happy a the same time, reach a balance and compromise.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
I didn't suggest high level devs need mollycoddling. I said mollycoddling the zip file warriors was a dumb idea.

Your analogy of "customer" doesn't fit. This isn't a business. People are welcome to use something or not. This is all done for the enjoyment of it and for the furtherance of Android. Anyone contributing here not of that mindset should get off XDA ASAP and start a forum of their own with their own rules. If Tomj777 never uses something I release as a result of the lambasting I gave him I won't lose any sleep.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
if you are making a donation then you are a costumer because you are paying for a product or service, if you provide someone with some information and you get a donation then they are a customer, my analogy is flawed but not totally inaccurate.

so, do you have any ideas of you own or are you just going to rubbish everyone elses? :)
[Galaxy S II General] NotATreoFan:
Do not mistake donations for payments. The first is permitted on XDA, the latter is not. A donation does not entitle you to anything special.

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Sent from a highly customized Droid Charge, using the magic of Verizon's 4G airwaves and Forum Runner.
[Galaxy S II General] pulser_g2:
The key thing though, is that you are not paying for a product or service. It's an unconditional gratuity... That's one of the key rules of xda.

requesting someone donate in return for something, or in exchange for something, is not allowed under the donations section.

This client/vendor model won't work, as at the end of the day, I make a rom for myself to use. If a few other people want to learn more and try it, that's all the better.

But I do this to get people to realise what is possible, and how to do things like change kernel without flashing an entire rom...

If even one person learns something, it was worth it. And I know many hundreds have done so. I gauge success with learning. more people showing an interest and learning to flash their phone is good. that's why I do it
[Galaxy S II General] jerdog:
you're not paying for a product or a service because said "product" is given to you without any implied request for anything. you provide a donation based on your own free will and not at the behest of anyone. you're not a customer in any sense of the word.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
Wow, you could not be more wrong. Even if you said up was down and the sky was covered in multi coloured polka dots, you wouldn't be any more wrong than you are right now with the statement you just made.

Making a donation doesn't make you someone who creates fancy dress apparel (costumer) any more than it makes you a paying consumer who enters into a contract with a supplier and has certain rights protected by that contract as a result (customer). A donation is exactly that, a donation, a gratuity, a way of saying thank you, something made WITH NO REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF ANYTHING IN RETURN WHATSOEVER. This includes but is not limited to customer service, graciousness, special favours or an overly special opinion aired on a developer community forum.

This renders your analogy indeed flawed and completely inaccurate. I suggest the next time you post you actually pause and take the time to think through what you have written instead of coming across as if you simply headbutted your keyboard a few times and hit "Submit". You're wrong, your approach is wrong and your statements are wrong. You arguing with me to the contrary doesn't make your flagrantly false statements any more correct, nor does you trying to somehow say that a donation is a contractual payment for service.

EDIT: Oh and why do I need to offer an idea, when the system the mods want to put in place is already good enough? This isn't a committee.
[Galaxy S II General] Nebucatnetzer:
Definition of Donation

donation - a voluntary gift (as of money or service or ideas) made to some worthwhile cause

gift - something acquired without compensation
[Galaxy S II General] jerdog:
do·na·tion

[doh-ney-shuhn]

–noun

1. an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.

2. a gift, as to a fund; contribution.

gift

[gift]

–noun

1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

2. the act of giving.

3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
wow we can all use a dictionary, fantastic.

however, semantics, although your definition of donation was quite correct, lets say then that the usage of donations on XDA has more in common with a business that it does than say, a charity where you receive nothing at all before or after the transaction.

It should also be noted that people actually sell ROMS and instructions to make ROMS on ebay, just because you don't have a "buy" button on here it does not change the fact that you are producing a product and receiving funds, whatever you want to call it.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
Except you, apparently.

Hahahahaha.

*Argues that a donation is akin to entering into a legally binding consumer contract*

*Has a number of people point out just how wrong the argument is*

*Hand waves away the contradictions as semantics*

*Is forum idiot stoolzo*

You're a moron. A purchase on ebay is absolutely nothing like donating to something you've already received or could have received you idiot. If the ROMs sold on ebay or the instructions are found to be incorrect, there's legal recourse for a refund. When you give a waitress a tip for a complimentary drink, you don't get to demand a replacement if it isn't cold enough.

Were you dropped on your head as a child?
[Galaxy S II General] jerdog:
yes - we can all use a dictionary - but not all of us evidently subscribe to the reasoning center of our brains to understand the difference between someone selling ROMs and instructions to make ROMs on ebay - and those who actually develop and give instructions on how to do so on here FOR FREE!

Yes they might be lucky enough to get a donation - but they don't (or shouldn't) do so with the express desire to get a donation. Whether you choose to give a donation in no way entitles you to download the ROM more than the next guy who doesn't give a donation - NOR does it give you the right to demand that the person who developed the ROM adhere to your wishes and desires. There are no rights, etc. granted by you downloading!
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
fair play, not my finest hour :)

However I stand by the fact that you are creating a product and have received funds for that product, so i maintain that on some level you have customers.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
Receiving a donation does not suddenly make someone a customer, period, on any level, be it on planet Earth level or on your la la land level.
[Galaxy S II General] overground:
I believe that is the most amount of defeat that he is willing to admit.

The purpose of donations are to show appreciation, in this case, of a product that is free and existing to begin with. Now oftentimes, the donators are doing so in hopes that their appreciation will lead to the betterment and continuance of the product. In other words, appreciation likewise. This does not make donators, customers. There is no obligation on behalf of the party receiving donations to do anything more, nor do they owe their donators anything. If said "product" is later deemed defective, just because donations have been received, in on way obligates the repair or betterment of said product. This is how being a customer and being a donator varies. There is no further obligation. Nor was there any to begin with.
[Galaxy S II General] tomj777:
@Hacre I'm confused by your mix of intelligent argument and bilious vitrol. Confused, as once you started demeaning yourself, I ceased to give you credibility.

Please voicing your points in a constructive manner rather than loosing your dignity like this.

Your tone really belongs to a face to face conversation (I'm about 3 hours away if you really want to flame, but nowt good will come from it for either of us). It does not belong on a forum.

Folks - that aside, one other thought. Ownership, membership, community or what ever we want to call it is the sum of the parts (good, bad, constructive, destructive, seeding devs, leaching devs, seeding users, leaching users, just people trying to learn and helping each other, flamers, whatever classification fits mood).

The point is that the majority of the above contribute to the whole and in doing so, make the whole what it is.

Stay in adult, folks.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
I supposed it depends on your definition of customer, whether you simply go with the dictionary definition which suggest you have to buy something to be a customer or whether you choose the wider meaning of a party who consumes goods, products or services. People who use your ROMs fit into this category whether the donate or not.

I think we are off the point here anyway, we should stop trying to score points, (not just because I am losing) :) and try to move the discussion on or bring it to a close, this will be my last post on the subject.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
No, they don't, because they're not customers. Do you need simple pictures drawn in crayon? To be a customer you must purchase products/goods/services.

Jesus, my dog learns faster than you. You're suffering from a condition known as being an arrogant moron who is completely unwilling to admit when they're wrong, so keep skewing their argument until something sounds at least close to correct. You're also bad at it.
[Galaxy S II General] Fallen Spartan:
I'm sorry, i've sat here glued to this thread reading the last couple of pages laughing my bollocks off. Yes literally. I now speak like Michael Jackson permanently.

Tbh and completely frank, i agree with everything hacre said. If 3 million users left XDA I wouldn't bat an eyelid as long as the dev's remained. XDA is and will always be about development. I haven't made a penny from XDA and never wish to. If i helped somebody, there gratitude is enough. If they wish to donate I have left a link to my favoirite charity on my sig (by the way, if you do donate, you aren't in a binding contract ;)). I love playing and modding my phone, so I read up about new tricks etc..... then if somebody needs assistance and I know the answer I can help them. XDA will always b e about furthering peoples knowledge. The day this changes, XDA is dead. So this is why mods act and make changes. If end users aren't happy, they are free to leave. Obviously we listen to all as we aren't ignorant, but we act for the development, not the end users

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Sent from my DZ using the improved version of Tapatalk, better known as Forum Runner ;)
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
So, Hacre, in short, you're pretty much insulting XDA's staff.

You're essentially saying XDA staff are unreasonable people with authoritarian policies. Yeah, no. That's downright insulting. The majority of XDA's staff are very reasonable, intelligent, and open-minded people who are dedicated to improving the community with user input and are perfectly able to accept constructive criticism and admit when they're wrong. I've seen it myself. After all, if you're not doing it for the community, then whom are you doing it for?

You mentioned that the forum split was a good idea, or else the XDA staff wouldn't have done it. This sort of attitude that the XDA staff are the supreme, omniscient overlords is counterproductive in improving XDA. Disagreeing with XDA staff is not the same thing as being disrespectful or unappreciative. Not everything at XDA is perfect, but the point is that constructive criticism and open discussion (FYI: discussion != personal attacks) does far more for XDA than your unconditional defense of the infallible staff, which is simply disrespectful and condescending to the staff.

Also, are you aware that you are the exact type of person who contributes to the rotting and deterioration of this forum? You are the person who turns threads into flamewars and consequently sucks the maturity out of the forum. You are the reason some longtime users and developers are no longer here. Just stop.
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
Really? As a mod, you should be warning him for making personal attacks. I'm legitimately concerned about all the spontaneous flamewars that ignite around the forums, and his post is a prime example. How many mods read his post, and how many took action? ...
[Galaxy S II General] Fallen Spartan:
I completely understand where you are coming from. Yes the language and personal attacks were not what we would expect or want from our members and he has already been spoken to about this, but nonetheless what he said was right. Did it ignite a flame war, yes, but moderators where monitoring the situation to ensure it didn’t get out of control (which I believe it didn’t) and his post did carry the desired message a lot of us our trying to get through to the end users. XDA is about development and a lot of people have forgotten this with their "gimme now" attitude or while trying to make a quick buck. Sometimes for the point to sink in it requires something a little over the top
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
Are you kidding me? Did a mod just defend the use of personal attacks to justify getting a point across? Was he at least given an infraction? And you're admitting to selectively enforcing rules. Ugh.

I really couldn't care less if what he said was right or not. That's not the point at all. And that's definitely not what mods should base their actions upon; you should be moderating based on the rules, and hacre has broken a few in that one post. Whether or not you're saying something true or correct does not give you the right to flame someone else, and I am truly, truly disappointed that the mods here disagree.

Should I be taking back what I said about the XDA staff being reasonable, intelligent, and open-minded?
[Galaxy S II General] pulser_g2:
This is not a new message.

Reference: http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45 from about 2008

XDA is for devs. Sometimes people have to be reminded that it's the devs who people come here for and to read about.
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
Er, what? I'm talking about how Fallen Spartan is selectively enforcing rules. Points should NOT be made with personal attacks, period.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
You're defeating your own argument. You're publicly questioning moderation (which is a breach of forum rules), while attempting to chasten me for breaking forum rules.

Here's the scoop, skippy: There is no blanket rule in society that dictates that everyone automatically gets respect and no one deserves harsh words in their direction. The very laws of nature dictate that protecting the weak (e.g. the moronically stupid) is against evolution. By allowing every ridiculous statement, every pointless whine and every inane ***** thread it sends the wrong message, the message that it's OK to whine and throw your toys out of the pram whenever someone does something you don't like, regardless of the reasons. This isn't how life works and this isn't how the forums work.

This entire website is dedicated to developers. Someone made a good point yesterday on IRC: The D stands for Developer not Dumbass. If more people gave whiney little idiots who feel they're entitled to whatever they want and if they don't get it so help them they'll kick up a fuss both barrels the world would be a much better place.

If diplomacy always worked we'd live on a nice quiet violence free planet. Thanks to the stupid who couldn't find their arse with both hands and a map and the morons who couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel, there comes times when it's appropriate and necessary to be blunt and call them on their bull****.

You call it an unnecessary personal attack. I call it a public service. You're welcome.
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
Ugh. /facepalm

1. There is no rule against questioning moderators.

2. There IS a rule against personal attacks. Thus, being civil IS "how the forums work." As you said yourself, XDA is not a democracy. You have to follow the rules.

3. Making personal attacks against someone online does not mean you are "strong" and the person you are attacking is "weak." -_-.

4. International diplomacy is not a valid analogy at all.

In case you haven't noticed, this thread was supposed to be a discussion. If you disagree with the opinion of someone else, you may, and it's entirely possible to do so without making ridiculous personal attacks and dragging this discussion down to your level.

Worse, the mods are simply standing back and watching. This thread epitomizes the problems with XDA.
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
I'd rather be the guy attacking the stupid than the guy white knighting to protect them.

I did not at any point say that making a personal attack made me strong. I said being a moron makes you weak and protecting that weakness provides no constructive purpose.

I did not say international diplomacy, I said diplomacy. Diplomacy covers a wide range of things from the petite to the vast and while it is an ideal approach it is not always an effective one. To continue to repeat an approach to a scenario while expecting a different result each time is a qualification criteria for insanity. Are you insane sir?
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
Am *I* insane? What about the guy who responded to someone's calm and level-headed opinion by calling him a "****er," "abortion justification," and "moronically stupid"?

Look, I can't even respond to your posts when all you say is "well, that guy is a ****ing moron!"
[Galaxy S II General] svetius:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsRYIGFG9hc

I think we need a group hug. :cool:
[Galaxy S II General] da-vid:
I think we need some rule enforcement instead. :cool:
[Galaxy S II General] Hacre:
You lack basic comprehension skills.
[Galaxy S II General] Fallen Spartan:
I think everyone needs to take a step back and think tbh. If we 100% enforced the rules with no lenacy everyone would be saying we where to strict. If we show lenacy you complain we aren't strict enough, so no matter what we do we cannot win. Hacre's post may have broken a few rules for but it made the point a lot of dev's and mods where trying to, but couldn't say. I'd happily allow one harsh post which struck a nerve than a couple hundred "nice" posts which everyone ignored. If you disagree with my actions, then that is your choice and your opinion which you are entitled to. Please feel free to contact site admin and complain

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Sent from my DZ using the improved version of Tapatalk, better known as Forum Runner ;)
[Galaxy S II General] tomj777:
Part of me wishes that I didn't poke this particular hornets nest as OP.

Some interesting discussions nonetheless and after all, Fallen Spartan makes a good point, if I may misquote hopefully in keeping of spirit: don't be bland, be honest and challenge respectfully. This is how we always evolve.

Anyway, circling back to the original point.

I am pleased to see the Roadmap post today and that there was no hint of division of forums based on `class`, a subjective measure which was one of the key objections.

It the post was all good, IMHO, as was Eggthunder1s post back in Feb.

I for one am happy that this community that I am invested in is on track.
[Galaxy S II General] AkkerDK:
Then I'm sorry to say, that it looks like You have been mislead or something ... According to this post from svetius Original ROM ctr. non-original there will be a division based on "class" :confused:
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
My previous entry was going to be the last but just thought I'd provide a word of warning AkkerDK.

I wouldn't get in involved any more to be honest, just accept it, this thread has been a bit of an eye opener for me and I think for others, the treatment of users contributing to this thread has been utterly disgusting especially when it was made clear from the outset that this was a just a discussion and nothing more.

Also, the failure of the MODs to Properly recognise this poor behaviour by Devs and indeed by themselves to me speaks volumes about how they really feel about their users, we are a necessary evil that simply provide a source of funds to keep the forum rolling, nothing more.

"We appreciate all donations to xda-developers.com, it keeps our forum online and well maintained"

The statement below made a few pages back, pretty much sums it up for me and is clearly at odds with forum harmony, it also suggests XDA would be more than happy to self destruct than to actually accommodate users opinions even though they claim to be "listening".

"If 3 million users left XDA I wouldn't bat an eyelid"

This isn't to say XDA is not still the best place to go if you have a problem with your phone, want to learn how to develop or simply want to share knowledge, I think it has just been tainted a little by this incident.

So its probably just best to leave XDA to get on with what they do best and just accept their failings.