yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)

I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,

I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.

Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters

Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.

Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.

Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.

tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.

Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)

People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.

Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.

Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
[Galaxy S II General] Fallen Spartan:
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
[Galaxy S II General] DaveShaw:
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
[Galaxy S II General] pulser_g2:
Hey,

Tier 1 does sorta exist :) It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.

If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...

My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.

I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us :)
[Galaxy S II General] Fallen Spartan:
Some good valid points mentioned. One thing I love about XDA is that we listen. As svetius stated we are trying this out and examining it. Doesn't mean it will be final, doesn't mean it won't.

...........................

Sent from my DZ using the improved version of Tapatalk, better known as Forum Runner ;)
[Galaxy S II General] khein:
And you also missed my point. Nowhere I've said that derivative roms aren't important.

I'm not a rom dev so I can't comment on the aid in splitting the forum. But some devs also don't see the point in this, as some deleted their ROM thread on the derived ROM forums and created a new ROM thread in the "ORIG" forum. Others stated their protest in the fb/twitter, while others are thinking of quitting.

See this related topics:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1175660

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1173326
[Galaxy S II General] jlevy73:
That's nice and all but times changes and sites/companies/people need to evolve. I understand the roots of XDA is a development community for hacking the crap out of our respective devices. God bless XDA for that. However, out of the 4 million users how many developers are there? My guess is that users outnumber developers a 1,000:1. Whether it's accepted or not, this site is user driven and if users stop coming so will developers.

What's still is unknown and yet to be defined is what constitutes development or Rom. The concept of original development versus secondary development indicates one is lesser than the other. Whether that is reality or not is irrelevant because that's the connotation/perception derived. And unfortunately in our non-utopic world, perception trumphs reality.

So is Rom development taken firmware deodexing it and optimizing APK's? Because really any Joe Schmoe can do that. So if I include busybox, SU and CMW does that count? Android has come a long way since the G1 when jesusfreke had the only rom. So where is this so called guidelines defining Rom's versus secondary development? AFAIK, there is nothing in the Android section that is truly original there all forks of AOSP, stock, leaks, firmware, Aurora etc.

I think this issues needs more transparency and clarity otherwise the frustration is only going to grow.
[Galaxy S II General] jlevy73:
Just curious Dave how is that going to be accomplished. Are the Mods and Admins going to go line by line through githubs comparing multiple Roms. Let's say there are a 100 mods, to do a thorough job would take months. If XDA is understaffed and overburdened this seems like a waste of resources unless you plan on bringing on more Mods.

And there is much here is that is completely subjective. What defines improvement? One might consider a theme an improvement another might think an OC'd kernel and the next might think those are step backwards.
[Galaxy S II General] DaveShaw:
TBH I don't know how, at the moment the I think the process is done by looking at what the ROM developer has included in their post. Whilst I can see the problems with that as well as anyone else, I do think that, if so called "Non-Original" ROM chefs made a ROM claiming to have a new "WhizzBang Ported from HMS Ark Royal" when it didn't, the users of the ROM would be able to call them out pretty quickly.

There are mods who I'm sure will look into disputes with some level of competency and know what's in and what isn't.

Also, you need to take into account of the 100 or so mods, we don't all know android very well - I don't.
[Galaxy S II General] jlevy73:
That's a fair answer. And at 550,000 activations daily, Android is growing at almost unprecedented pace. I just want point out that I'm not calling anyone at. I love XDA and my post count reflects my unwaivering support to make this site a better place. I have friends who are Mods here and they do a great job listening and contributing to the overall excellent experience. There's a great base of devs and users alike and surely XDA will always be the go to place for crack flashing. I think we all want the same thing, to have the best experience possible. I do appreciate the Mods and Admins who have taken their time to allow us members to speak freely and listen. In the end that means a lot to everyone
[Galaxy S II General] egzthunder1:
Much unlike common belief, we are not dictators but we try to do what's best for the site. We do appreciate good quality feedback as we are not perfect in what we do. However, we do put a ridiculous amount of time to make this place enjoyable both for end users and devs alike.

As for your question from earlier, the main consensus, which has been an unspoken consensus on xda for ages, is the fact that themes do not constitute development nor does throwing stuff together in a kitchen without any value added. This is rough very coarse guideline, but I figured that since you were asking about it, I would put this out there. More later....
[Galaxy S II General] DaveShaw:
Any constructive praise or criticism towards any and all ideas is welcome, I don't mind having an open discussion on the topic - which is why I'm putting in so much effort trying to steer these threads into a discussion about what could be wrong and how to resolve it. Instead of just letting people flame it down or big it up.

At the end of the day we can never please everyone and I don't suggest we try to, but we wouldn't have looked at making this change if there wasn't a reason. I will try and answer any sensible questions (within my field of knowledge), and I don't mind if people don't like my answers (who says I like my own answers ;)).

It's late in England, and I'm off for some sleep.

Dave
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
I think we should forget about all the ideal world scenarios and XDA ethos discussions, as they really have no bearing on the real world problems at XDA. Breaking the issues down might help, here are the main issues as I see them, feel free to correct and add.

Scenario 1:- Worst case scenario: - People are taking what are essentially fully working ROMS, applying a theme and maybe a few minor tweaks and then posting it on XDA as their own work without acknowledgement or with little or incomplete acknowledgement. These people are also not passing on any thanks or donations on to the originators of these ROMs.

Scenaroi 2:- Devs who spend a lot of time developing ROMS and Kernels etc are finding their work popping up in other ROMS, they have no problem with this as such as they appreciate that android is open source but would like to have their work mentioned and acknowledged where a new ROM is posted. A percentage of the donations and thanks would be appreciated but are not essential as long as their worked is documented properly.

Scenario 3:- Devs who spend a lot of time developing ROMS and Kernels etc are finding their work popping up in other ROMS. These Devs feel that there work should not be used without their permission and at the very least there contribution should be fully documented and a share of any donations passed onto them should the posted ROMS gain any.

Where are full ackknowledge these issues are very real and valid I really dont think any amount of XDA tweaking and changing is going to be able to deal with any of these scenarios effecitvely, any attempt to do so will take so much time and effort that it will start to have a negative impact on other areas of moderation, e.g, do mods really have time to go through every single ROM posted on every single phone model to ensure it has been:

A) posted correctly with acknowledgements

B) contains nothing that hasn't been acknowledged (to do this properly the rom would have to be downloaded and checked)

In my opinion if they don't have the time to do this properly and get it right at least 90% of time then it shouldn't be done at all so we are back to replying on peoples good.

The originators of the kernel, ROMS etc are going to have to police their own work like CM7 frequently do, its sad but that the reality of the situation as I see it.
[Galaxy S II General] pulser_g2:
I think you've assessed this VERY accurately. The Galaxy S 2 ROMs that come from Samsung are, for the most-part, pretty darned good. Sure, they lack a few things (root access for one, but that's never gonna happen :p) but that can be achieved easily.

One of the issues that exists is the release of what is arguably a theme, but as a full ROM. There are some awesome themes over in themes & apps. Some I use myself, as they are almost perfect in my eyes. Some I don't particularly like, but I give them a go :)

The point is that it's nice and easy to switch between the themes since they are just flashed on top of a ROM.

But some themes are distributed as "ROMs". I think when there was a thread with "5 custom ROMs", each identical but for the theme, is slightly taking the biscuit...

If it's a theme, release it as a theme :) I think this is sorta what you are alluding to in point 1 (am I right?)

There's no point in re-inventing the wheel, so releasing a theme as a theme would make sense. But when it becomes a ROM, it starts to become more confusing, and less easy for people to play about with things.

I personally don't give a hoot about donations. Some people make them, and they are very gratefully received, but I don't do this for them (and neither should anyone). But perhaps there is a perception somewhere that making a theme is "lesser" than making a ROM, and that they might not make as much $$$ or get as much "1337ness"...
[Galaxy S II General] egzthunder1:
A couple of things on this:

1. The point of making the modification was not and is not about donations or thanks. Please stop it with this already as it is not even in the focus of the idea at all.

2. You are 100% correct that it would be a tremendous load for moderators to have to check every single rom, which is a point that jlevy made earlier in this thread. This actually was one of the main drivers of trying this on the SGS2 as the forum is still young and there is not a massive amount of stuff to move around. This by no means will be retroactive to all forums on the site, but rather on a need basis.

It is no secret that we rely heavily on good members to report things that are not right on the site as we are not omniscient. So, while we may not be able to check every rom that comes out, we will rely on the users to let us know if there is a rom posted in the other section. Do you have any idea how many threads we have to move to the correct sections on a daily basis? Just to give you an idea, I went through a cleaning of the Thunderbolt development area last week. I moved over 70 question threads to the correct q&a area. That was just me working on this one subforum for over an hour. So, believe me that we are aware about the load of moving threads around and making sure that they end up in the correct area. Unfortunately, due to the massive size of this place, we have to take a rather reactive approach to problems rather than a proactive one as I would like to take.

3. The scenarios that you stipulate are 100% accurate and they are in fact the realities of many devs on xda. Because of the diversity of the intents, we will never be able to please everyone whether we act one way or another, or even if we don't act at all.

Changing trains.... more later.
[Galaxy S II General] pavlovian:
I appreciate that the devs say they aren't interested in the money, but the donators definitely are. We'd like to know where or what our donation is going towards.

If some guy is gonna take someone elses ROM and someone elses THEME, then add them together and call it a new ROM with their name on it, i'd really like to know this before I send them $20.

Information about a custom ROM and it's origins should be open and freely available to anyone thinking about making a donation. If a derivative ROM sub forum helps make this clearer, I don't see why this is a bad thing.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
With regard to point 2, what is the exact reasoning behind the change then?, simply a clarity issue?, an attempt to separate the different types of ROMS, who actually needs this really then?

Surely this is about separating ROMS so users can see which ones are more deserved of praise, useage and ultimately... I almost dare not say it now but...donations.

If devs required nothing at all in praise/acknowledgement/ at all then surely there would be no need to enforce them, good will would be enough.

Perhaps I haven't really understood the issues at all then..
[Galaxy S II General] egzthunder1:
Hehe.... I just re-read my post. It wasn't meant to carry an angry tone regarding the donations. Sorry about that.

To answer your question, read pulser's reply right before my post.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
no worries, although I still don't think this issue has been fully clarified yet.

Pulser mentioned that when a theme becomes a rom it gets more confusing, it does, but only if you need to differentiate between a full ROM made from scratch or a ROM skin, if you are just looking for a working ROM that suits your needs then who and how it was made is likely to be secondary or not an issue at all. Which brings us back to who this move has been made for again and why, it clearly had nothing to do with the needs of most users which again brings me back to devs and their need for separation and why..
[Galaxy S II General] eRPeeX:
It's always good to have clear topics in forums. But it seems there is some ambiguity created in the SGS2 forum.

So a simple practical question for the mod(s): On what have you based your decision to condemn Lite'ning Rom to "Android Development"?
[Galaxy S II General] egzthunder1:
Ok, this is getting silly. We are discussing the core of this matter. We have already stated that if we moved a ROM by mistake, that the chef for that ROM could come to us so that we could re evaluate in case we made a mistake. I am all for a healthy discussion on whether this will work or not, but I will not entertain complains from end users who are just trying to stand up for the ROM the use. If you feel like having a healthy, well argumented debate like jlevy and stoolzo have been doing until now, by all means feel free to post. Else, please leave it to the chefs to complain about their work being moved. Thanks.

Edit: just to put this matter to rest, if I am not mistaken, lite ROM was moved because the ROM in itself has nothing of value added other than skins (and nice ones at that) made by litepro himself. Everything else are mods and fixes made by others. Going back to pulser's point above, if he is trying to promote themes, then keep the releases as themes and not roms.

Just a disclaimer, this is my understanding of why it was moved. I didn't move it or analyzed it myself, so I cannot truly speak about it.
[Galaxy S II General] The Root:
To add fuel to the fire, imagine someone altered only a few things but people really loved those few things. It does suck that the original rom creator did a ton of the work, but the second guy made the rom find its niche. If more people liked what he/she did with it, they've made their market selection. It should teach the dev to provide that level of variety or get advice from their community about what would be the most appealing release. We get a lot of threads from our devs about that. Only a few problems with not crediting, but they're mostly few and get solved amongst the devs themselves. Credit should be given, but I am always impressed with the guys that say to go ahead and use their work, you don't need to ask.
[Galaxy S II General] eRPeeX:
The reason for this thread, however, was the move of Lite'ning Rom to an imho inferior position.

If you mods wants a clear forum there must also be clear rules. And then it's not done that only one mod starts unannounced experimenting with its own unclear rules in a subforum.

So make as many subforums as you want. But announce that for the full XDA forum. And don't tamper in one forum and claim that it is an experiment for the whole XDA forum.

Make first a discussion thread with mods and devs and ... concerning the outlines for an "Original Rom" subforum and a "Derivated Rom" subforum

Second make clear rules.

Thirdly ... make the subforums.

And don't do it the reverse way.
[Galaxy S II General] egzthunder1:
The reason for this thread was

not

to talk about litening rom. If that is what you think, I suggest you go back to the original post on this thread and read it properly.

Also, why is it an inferior position? Who says it is in an inferior position? We certainly never said anything like that nor did we imply it. The subforum is in the same level of hierarchy as the other rom subforum, so I don't understand how this makes it a lesser rom.

I am going to explain this in simple terms, you cannot launch a large scale project without having tried it in a smaller scale to gauge for success. Also, it wasn't just "one mod" doing this as you claim, this was a big chunk of mods and admins putting our heads together to try and figure out ways for things to work better. Rolling out an untested system onto 4 MM members would be silly. Hence, we chose a forum with good development activity that wasn't massive yet.

The outlines were meant to be released with the addition of the sub-forum, but for some reason, they were not. We will make an announcement shortly as to what course of action will be taken.
[Galaxy S II General] stoolzo:
as soon as you separate things that were once united then one of them naturally becomes inferior to the other as there is no such thing as "equal" in the real world, lets not pretend otherwise shall we :)

XDA sees derivative skinned ROMS as inferior as do the DEVs, this is pretty obvuious and to sugegst otherwsie is a bit of insult to be honest :).

By definition these ROMS are inferiour in that you dont need to be a developer to make one but they are also highly valued, something XDA keeps forgetting.

I think you should at this stage be acknowledging the importance of the user, a major contributor to its survival and growth - I doubt you would be able to get the advertising revenue you do if you didn't have so many "users". (this could be totallcrap, just a guess)

I think the forum should now be geared towards the user not the Devs, like you say, the devs have their own area, perhaps you should seek to separate these areas further by acknowledging that the main forum is used 99% by users and therefore set out in a way that helps them. Putting all the ROMs back together would be start, moving dev to its own thread would be a very good second step at the risk of repeating myself and others.

I think you know what you have to do chaps / chapesses :)
[Galaxy S II General] egzthunder1:
How can the roms be inferior if they are all the same as they basis that they are using? We don't qualify them as inferior because they are not. They are based on either stock or a heavily tweaked rom. Your argument about making them inferior does not stand ground. They have a lot less work put in them by the chef, but they are by no means inferior.

Please tell me that you are not serious with this statement. This was, is, and always will be a hacking and development forum. It is not a customer support forum, it is not a place geared for end users, although they are welcome to join in if you are willing to become an active part of the community. XDA is meant to be a vast source of knowledge for anyone that is willing to learn the ins and outs of their devices, to make them better and get the best out of them. This is not Sprint/Verizon/TMobile/Vodaphone/3/AT&T/Orange/etc support site. Sure people in here love helping out others, but the fact that we have so many members does not equate to this being an end user oriented site.