yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Thunderbolt General] cuguy:
I always thought they knew, just can't do much about it. However, if they start using that information to deny certain services, it would be a major problem.
[Thunderbolt General] setexascustoms:
We need one of the nifty Verizon employees that frequent here to comment on this.
[Thunderbolt General] nrfitchett4:
that is interesting. In theory, they could use that to deny warranty claims.
[Thunderbolt General] dms76:
or the devs could just change the listing and fake the rom info right?
[Thunderbolt General] son0fthunder:
Well, thats my thought / hope. He read right back to me saying I was running a custom rom. I got to talking with him and he admitted he was rooted as well, and additionally stated that as a whole VZW doesn't pursue the issue. it just tripped me out, that he read it out. He had a very "don't bull**** me" tone. haha
[Thunderbolt General] PhillyCheez:
tricky verizon.... they are catchin on!

if their phones didn't come with so much bloatware i wouldn't feel the need to root.
[Thunderbolt General] son0fthunder:
The screen cap was from today, obviously. What do you guys think of that?
[Thunderbolt General] Schedonnardus:
i think you need to charge your phone ;)
[Thunderbolt General] PhillyCheez:
i think you should download that and drop it on xda early for all of us.
[Thunderbolt General] djnikkofb:
I agree,I believe a charge is in order

1.21 giggawatts Thunder™
[Thunderbolt General] sublimaze:
Anyone dumb enough to return a rooted phone deserves to be denied.
[Thunderbolt General] sc4fpse:
Haha, all warranty-implications aside, that's pretty cool that he could tell you what rom you were running.
[Thunderbolt General] ibsk8:
Jcase has said before that they can tell, a big give away is you radio/baseband version. Do they care if you're rooted? Probably not unless your stealing services ,in which they are starting to act on and try to eliminate.

I root because I like to tinker with computers, I like the customization and speed that rooting gives us.

No flame please.
[Thunderbolt General] 1Brite1:
Hi. I just bought a Thunderbolt after having problems with Sprint. I was told the same thing and when I mentioned it in the forum from a thread I posted, I was called a liar, among other things. I was told, as you can see from my post, that they also know every site you visit and whether you are paying for the Mobile Hot Spot. Sorry to hear your story, but glad that it validates what I was told from Sprint.
[Thunderbolt General] GuestD1018:
That was a great reply!! Hilarious!
[Thunderbolt General] kwiggington:
I do it to get rid of crapware
[Thunderbolt General] supermandroid:
Well I'll just jump on over to Sprint if they terminate my contract! The developer support is the reason I have an Android phone. I'm sure the devs could come up with something to block this though.
[Thunderbolt General] julian.o.neill:
Honestly... I think terminating contracts over rooted phones would be one of the dumbest moves a cellular company could make.

It takes a certain technical know-how to root a phone, even with "easy root" phones such as the Google Nexus series. These technical people are also the people that are likely to be in positions of IT buying power in major organizations. If one of these people were to loose service over the rooting their personal phone, they may make the case to organizational management to move the organizational fleet of phones away from that carrier. In turn, the termination of one contract leads to the eventual termination of an entire fleet of phones. This "Mutually Assured Destruction" scenario prevents the cellular carriers from taking any large scale averse action against rooted phones. Furthermore, these technical people frequently talk to each other through rapid dissemination means (i.e. these forums). This sets up another scenario where the cancellation of one person's service may lead to the loss of many current and future subscribers.

These two factors leads to an environment where rooting is tolerated but not encouraged by the carriers. Carriers do not want to encourage rooting because it allows people to get rid of money making applications (i.e. City ID). However, they can not take averse action against rooted phones as that would launch the "mutually assured destruction" scenario discussed above. Carriers have turned to the method of locking down the phones as much as possible to prevent casual rooting of the devices. However, once a device is rooted, it is out of the carrier's control.
[Thunderbolt General] son0fthunder:
I fell asleep shortly after this thread was posted, I will however post updated pics once phone is charged.
[Thunderbolt General] thetwiztidfreak:
Well said and totally agree only thing they really care about is cracking down on people using paid services free.
[Thunderbolt General] joshnichols189:
They can see if you use the included hotspot app. Not wireland tether.
[Thunderbolt General] lrs421:
Interesting.... Wow.
[Thunderbolt General] nrfitchett4:
my point being is that if they can tell what you are on during a tech support call, they could maybe put a note in there. Then it wouldn't matter if you unrooted, flashed back to stock before returning it.

Personally, if I have a legit reason to have a phone replaced, I brick it, so there is no question that it needs replacing.
[Thunderbolt General] joshnichols189:
The OP said VZW as a whole doesn't care if you root, and if you file a claim you aren't getting a phone from VZW anyways, you're getting it from Asurion.
[Thunderbolt General] TCM55:
So you are saying Verizon knows every site I visit? I sure hope not, that feels very big brother to me.
[Thunderbolt General] reefsrt:
well, if they know i'm running das bamf 3.0, then i guess there's no reason to unroot and switch back to the official MR2 release, now that its out! hahaha. One more reason to stay rooted now.
[Thunderbolt General] DaRkL3AD3R:
Hate to break it to you, but ANY ISP basically knows every site you go to. Unless you run through a proxy server, so long as you're connecting to the internet through someone elses routing system (Verizon, Comcast, AT&T doesn't matter who) they have full on logs of every site you've ever been to.

As for actually monitoring it. Really? Way too much data to sift through. And the only time they'd look at your data is if the feds come knocking with a warrant. In which case you did something bad and are gonna get caught for it.

I am so glad I don't browse anything illegal lol.
[Thunderbolt General] Espadax:
This is interesting, but as long as they do not care it shouldn't be an issue I think
[Thunderbolt General] satseaker:
They might not monitor it but they log it and save it they have also been sharing your info,so big brother is right but a proxy server does the same thing,and those that think usenet is safe got another thing coming,usenet logs it all too. the difference is you pickup bits and pieces all over the only one that sees the whole file is you.

Sent to you via my handheld cellular communications device
[Thunderbolt General] patches152:
VZW has been able to see which software you're on since before the HTC xv6700, which released in 2005.
[Thunderbolt General] satseaker:
That goes for any smart phone, it has to log into the network or there would be no way of fixing minor activation problem. At that point they could see your OS, worked on the blackberry to,i had the 5.0 on my curve long before out was out and they refused to help me because of it.

Sent to you via my handheld cellular communications device
[Thunderbolt General] dhaymond:
Reading through all this, is interesting and funny at the same time. Funny that they can do all this and look into our phones and see what we're running, doing and all else I wont get into. But they claimed they couldn't see any reboot/software problems and can't make a phone worth a thing or see problems that they create with their software.

*WALK in the WORD*
[Thunderbolt General] adrynalyne:
They would have to prove it by physical inspection.
[Thunderbolt General] patches152:
The difference is that the device reports the OS for authentication purposes, but error logs aren't needed for authentication. However, I'm sure there's a way to enable error reporting, Google uses it for apps and OS purposes already.
[Thunderbolt General] Addicted2Droid:
Droid life did a story on this a few months ago. Eventually they will use the info to crack down on stealing tethering similar to what AT&T has done when they sent out notices to people using it without paying
[Thunderbolt General] my_username:
I read about Verizon having ways of detecting root as well, and have no doubt that they do have many ways of detecting it, actually. But, while I am no legal expert by any means, I would think that without any visual proof by an employee at a Verizon store, as long as you at no time give in and admit to the rep that you have violated the terms of your contract by rooting, they have no legal recourse for denying you support.

If anybody that is knowledgable can confirm or deny this, please feel free to set me straight, as this is only a guess.
[Thunderbolt General] H3Dude:
Rooting is not illegal. Just the things you can do while being tethered.
[Thunderbolt General] xbostonIrishx:
I don't know why, but this just sounds funny and dirty to me......

The things you can do while being tethered is illegal in 37 states! LOL....
[Thunderbolt General] Jrocker23:
In regards to wired & wireless tethering

From what I remember being told and from my own look around different forums in the past and now, if you hack the actual app that is supplied by the carrier, they can tell if it is being used and that you are not paying for the service(Such as at&t in the past).

If your using a 3rd party apk like wireless tether and its coded and programmed right, it can not be detected as tethering by the carrier, it just looks like you are surfing the web & downloading so it should not be an issue. Now if your using a lot of GB's then that might make them curious (I don't mean 5 or 6, I would think it would be around the 20's and above. Especially with 4g now, 5 - 6 is real easy without tethering).

If anyone knows otherwise, please feel free to correct me.
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
Sounds right to me j. I think people are worrying too much and are scared of big red. It's just them trying to make more money.
[Thunderbolt General] mthe0ry:
It would cost an unbelievable amount in overhead and technical implementation to record what application is requesting each packet over the 4G network. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure Android makes that information transparent to the carrier. Especially on custom ROMs, I don't see how they could have visibility into what app is making internet requests without deep packet inspection.

That said, it is worth looking into what Mobile IP framework the 3rd party Wireless Tether application uses. I've read around here and elsewhere that verizon provides two Mobile IP services/networks, one is the one your phone uses when you are browsing on the phone and using the network on the phone and the other, the DUN network, is the one that issues IPs if you are using the stock wireless tether app. It would be VERY easy to track tether usage of the stock app - all verizon has to do is look at the IP address.

However if it's not through the DUN then I believe it's undetectable. At least without some custom application running on Android, which would require that people run stock.

Any comments on which Mobile IP service is used by 3rd party Wireless Tether for Android Users?
[Thunderbolt General] Bonetwizt:
But can they see you using CM7's hotspot or something like barnacle(what i use)
[Thunderbolt General] mthe0ry:
Could someone who is using the paid tethering service post the results from the following page:

http://www.whatsmyip.org/more/

1) on your PC while it is tethered and

2) on your phone

Do it on the same session if possible.
[Thunderbolt General] joshnichols189:
Thank you for going into more detail about this than I and being right :)
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
I am doing tests right now. I am using Wireless Tether version 2.0.6

Results with docs soon.
[Thunderbolt General] Jrocker23:
Very nice write up.

Basically Verizon uses 2 different addresses on the phone.

One is the dun and is used for the hot spot tethering and the other address is used for the normal data usage that you use on the phone such as surfing and downloading apps and stuff.

Now the 3rd party tethering apps use the second address not the DUN to send the signal out. So in Verizons case, they just see it as normal data usage not the DUN being used. Again the amount of GB's you use could make them look a little closer.
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
Ok Wireless tether from thunderbolt results come in that each the computer/phone have the same IP address. Here are some screenshots.

Phone screen shots. whatismyip.org and speedtest app for ip since java isnt able to run the ip on the phone

__________________________________________

Screen shots for the computer tethering from the thunderbolt using wireless tether.

someone can chime in because im not that smart with this stuff although it will be my degree ;)

in conclusion, the ip's are the same. therefore verizon would not know if i am using the tether app and on the computer or phone. nice try verizon :) i will not pay for a service you cant prove i am using. and all this said, i hardly tether because 4g is still being worked on in my area. but when 4g is done and stable, bring on the gb's
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
oh and before the comments on the ****ty 3g, i am in the boondocks at the moment. so thats why the speed is so lowwww.
[Thunderbolt General] FlagAZ:
yeah just a little slooowww!!!!!
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
it makes baby jesus cry.
[Thunderbolt General] patches152:
The packet reporting on 3G tethering was done through the programming of the phone, which is why we could use the "DUN hack". VZW can definitely look at your data usage if you challenge the charges. I've done it when I was an employee for people disputing "pay as you go" data on feature phones, etc. Not sure how much it changed since 4G, but its definitely not reporting your IP addy for billing purposes, its packets.
[Thunderbolt General] :
I would kill to get that speed out of my 3g. I am lucking to get half of that.
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
where do you live?
[Thunderbolt General] ncwildcat:
I agree - I average 300kb to 800kb on 3G - Apex NC and also RTP
[Thunderbolt General] l7777:
Oh the shock and awe. :rolleyes: Here's an idea, whatever it is, assume that they can and make your choices accordingly. Don't be so naive as to believe that VZW can't tell what you're doing with their network. They can't go so far as to see what you're clicking on your phone, but they can see basic info on the devices that connect to their network. Think web browsers connecting to a web site. The web server can't see everything you do, but does gather some info such as web browser, web browser version, ip address, etc...

On Teathering:

If you're using the TB as your home ISP, you should probably pay for teathering. If you're using the TB as a hotspot on occasion, VZW is probably not going to care.

On Root/Custom Roms:

The phones should be looked at like a computer. Your warranty is not void just because you buy a computer with Windows and then install Linux. You won't get any software support on that computer, but if a piece of the hardware dies, you still get it replaced. The same holds true for phones. Don't call in and complain about the software unless you're stock. If you do, expect the custom software to be blamed for your problem.
[Thunderbolt General] :
Just outside of Washington DC. A lovely crap hole called suitland, md.

That is actually where I work. I has wifi at home so I don't care about the G's there.

If the wind blows just right and the gods are on my side I have eeked out about 1.19 down.
[Thunderbolt General] nrfitchett4:
agree with others. Have never seen 1mbps on verizon or sprint 3g, always in the 600-800 kbps range...
[Thunderbolt General] RunNgun42:
Well then I'll just say in Charleston SC I routinely get 1.5mbps or so in 3G (they dont have 4G here yet).
[Thunderbolt General] crazyhtown:
Like anything at any big company. If you call and get a company man trying to move up trying to get recognition than Yah they can see, but most of the time you will get someone going through the motions trying to get through the day...
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
Ouch, 1.5mb sucks. I couldn't imagine getting lower.
[Thunderbolt General] orkillakilla:
Lol surprise surprise. Actually not. You really think they couldn't see system versions, build version and so on from day one with the first Android phone?

The REAL question is, can they only see the CURRENT version of software on your phone, or track the entire history of your flashing...

If its only the current version, then simply return to stock before you call.

Anyways, Verizon doest care if your phone is rooted. They care what you do with your rooted phone (aka tethering). They know what hardware problems certain phones have, so they can probably tell if you need a replacement in certain situations.

If you brick your phone, your either an idiot or shouldn't have been messing with you phone like that in the first place. I've never actually seen a real report of a fully bricked phone before (aside from the few tbolt after the GB leak, but that was deemed probably a hardware issue because some non rooted people had bricks). The point is, its damned hard to brick these phones, so warranty claims are almost always hardware related aside from a few dummies who are to lazy to read how to recovery a phone from a bad flash...

They are NOT going to kill contracts for rooted phones. All they care about is making money. That's it. If your paying your bill and not stealing from them, your golden.

/rant

Sent from my rooted stock OTA MR2 Thunderbolt
[Thunderbolt General] sonami:
If you have the ins. It shouldn't matter anyway
[Thunderbolt General] mthe0ry:
Can you elaborate on this, I'm not aware of anything in packets that would indicate whether someone is tethering or not.
[Thunderbolt General] madsquabbles:
actually they might be able to tell. look at the ua string, one's windows and other is mac osx. i don't recall windows ever showing up when changing ua strings, osx would if you use ipad/iphone ua strings or possibly using default since it's webkit also.
[Thunderbolt General] nrfitchett4:
yeah, no way I would be on verizon without 4g, I would have stuck it out with t-mobile.

My saying was always, "cdma is slow and reliable, and gsm is fast and flaky".
[Thunderbolt General] mthe0ry:
Verizon can't see any of that stuff without deep packet inspection. That information is in the packet payload of the http requests.
[Thunderbolt General] DaedalusZR1:
And you think, being a primary ISP backbone across the US for cellular and regular internet data as well, that Verizon doesn't have the capability nor the desire?
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
they surely have the capability
[Thunderbolt General] madsquabbles:
do we connect through a vzw proxy? i know with the evo 3d, one of the ways to speed up your connection was to remove the connection to sprint's proxy, which is in there by default. you need you msl to change in the the phone's config.
[Thunderbolt General] mthe0ry:
first off the information is largely meaningless because you can shape your own http requests with whatever information you want in there, and most browsers for android let you change the user agent on the fly.

So I did a little research and it does seem that Verizon likely does have

A deep packet inspection technology of some kind installed on their mobile networks. So they do have the capability to look at your http traffic. However this issue is highly politicized and likely

Dpi will get regulated in the near future. Whoever regulates it may or may not see detecting tether users as a valid dpi use. In any case, verizon does not have a history of confronting rooted tether users
[Thunderbolt General] brisdaddy1207:
I've returned a bunch and never had a problem, never once.
[Thunderbolt General] KaptainObvious:
But doesn't a "bricked" phone also prove to [them] that you f'd with it?
[Thunderbolt General] sublimaze:
Negative. Ppl have bricked on stock, nonrooted
[Thunderbolt General] dwnfdrknss:
Very interesting post OP but i have to say it comes as no surprise... to me at least. I was talking to the verizon employee who helped me upgrade to my new TB and i laughed because we were talking about rooting phones. He told me he'd lose his job for talking to me about it but he rooted his phone first day as well. For me its about customization and optimization. Just like retail computers, phones these days have so much bloatware it really hinders the performance of the phone. It's also a hobby for me as it's quite fun messing with tech toys.

Rick
[Thunderbolt General] nrfitchett4:
not at all, just that phone developed a fatal problem

exactly. HD2's had problems with overheating when the motherboard was failing, it's a lot easier to send it to them not turning on. Otherwise they want to say there isn't a problem.

Called and told t mobile the phone kept freezing, then a few days later called and said it wouldn't turn on. Sent me a refurb.
[Thunderbolt General] Jacob9424:
Dang I woulda laughed and walked out...
[Thunderbolt General] imanust:
You mean I wont be able to steal from Verizon any longer? :(
[Thunderbolt General] Jacob9424:
Guess not :( haha
[Thunderbolt General] bthomp21:
its only stealing if you get caught!
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