yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
I can post a video... maybe i should.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
I can confirm this, it is much work to make it work but it's is possible. When you're putting three fingers on the screen of your x10, you will notice that the other 2 are perfectly recognized, it's just being limited. If someone would be able to write proper drivers, our x10's would have a fully working dual touch, but three-four fingers should be possible too. If you don't agree with this, try it your self and prove that I am wrong.

When putting your third finger on the screen, the other two are also still being recognized on the same place. Let's hope at least that the Sony Ericsson Dev Team has improved the dual touch, I am not expecting that they have written proper drivers to make it a fully working dual touch.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] arkedk:
[YOUTUBE]mxVpm6WnoMA[/YOUTUBE]

Here's a review of the X10 Gingerbread update, it's done by iAndroid.co.il
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Thank you.

If it was not MT capable then it would get completely confused by the third touch.
[XPERIA X10 General] arkedk:
Was it really necessary to create a new profile to back your theory up?
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
I always thought this would be more a proof that our panel ISN'T capable of tracking more than two fingers. I'd interpret it like that, in very noobish language: I guess, that the digitizer checks the screen for touches/movements in a very high frequency. After applying a third finger on the device, it gets confused by this third finger and possibly jumps over, losing track of the second finger. That's how I imagine a digitizer at work :p

Wouldn't it be limited MT if it would recognize the second touch BETWEEN the second and third finger, meaning the panel recognizes that there's a third finger on the screen, but due to its 2-point limitation calculates the center between both touches to be the touched point?

I read that somewhere, but really, I don't have a lot of clue about touch panels, so don't kill me if the above-written is total BS.

But a very easy way to clear things up would be the following:

Someone with a Nexus One should do the test OmageRED^ did (it can't really be limited to Wolfbreaks ROM, can it?) and report back. I'm sure Google didn't limit its Nexus phones, so if it reacts in the same way, we should also just have DT. If it reacts totally different, well, we could hope for MT ;)

@arkedk: Weird coincidence, isn't it? A new member, with today's join date, installed WB's ROM, did the MT-test and backs up OmegaRED^. No offense Omega, but this really IS strange oO

LOL and Omega went offline just before Darky came online :D
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Ask the moderators if that is what i did.

I don't play dirty like SE.

I don't have to cheat by doing that.. other members with test it.. see the bug and hopefully stand up for it.
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Nope.. it gets the positions of the other 2 spot on..

If it was not MT then it would do that.
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
Ok, my fault. Thx.

Isn't there ANYONE with a Nexus One to repeat this test on a clearly only DT-capable device?
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi qwer23/arkedk,

I'm running stock 2.1 firmware with dual touch. I need my camera really bad, so no daily custom rom for me.

The Nexus One, and the Xperia x10 are two different phones. You can't compare their touchscreen, but they've got both the same axis bug, just like the HTC Desire and maybe some more phones. All my tests were made on Sony Ericsson stock firmware.

I'm not related with OmegaRED, but you can ask a moderator to check it out. I don't have any problem with that.

It is just by accident that we have both the same way of thinking.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] Prodigy:
Smart but lacking Paperwork? ;) Haha.
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
Unless, technically, you put all 3 fingers on the screen at exactly the same time, wouldn't it be normal for the phone to show only 2 fingers registered? Because when you put down 3 fingers on it, you'll probably not put all 3 down at EXACTLY the same time, so only the two which FIRST touched the screen are recognized, the other is ignored because the digitizer can't register a 3rd touch.

If you put all three down at the same millisecond, then yeah, that means 3 touches should be possible, but I don't think that's humanly possible to do that....
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
I really don't care if you're related or not, just had to laugh about the coincidence and I'm a little curious about it ^^

I know that Nexus One could have another touchscreen. But I know that its touchscreen definitely is only DT-capable and if this test would result in the same behaviour on the Nexus One and the X10, that would be a proof that this behaviour has nothing to do with MT. Can you follow my thoughts?
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi kantk20111,

A little reply from side about that part I quoted. That happens because the touchscreen is by software limited to two touches. So it will act like it doesn't recognize the third finger, but it is there. It was the same when we had single touch.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
Btw. how would the mods know if you're the same guy? I could make three accounts with three IP's right now. I'd only have to use my PC, my phone's 3G connection and my 3G tablet --> done :D

But oh, well. Back to topic.

I'll go and hunt down signatures for someone owning both an X10 and a Nexus One:p
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Actually ... NO.

If 2 of the fingers are being tracked perfectly without being effected by the 3rd touch it MT capable.

The 3rd touch would distort the positions of the first 2 if it was not MT capable.

Also.. just BTW.

Report this thread to the mods.

I have no reason to make any extra accounts.

I have no reason to lie.

Many of us know that SE roams these pages.

Why not have them troll people that are on the verge of a break thru.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi qwer23,

I understand your way of thinking, but if you look on YouTube you'll see that the Nexus One has handicaps with the dual touch that our x10 doesn't have. I don't have a special video to show it to you, because I haven't saved it.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] rtblittlebrown:
Pls make a vid so more people get wht ur talking about
[XPERIA X10 General] rtblittlebrown:
Please post it
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Dude.. make a vid and upload it.

i am a bit short on cap.

I have done what i needed.

I am off i bid you well.
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
That doesn't make sense to me at all...if there was distortion by that third finger that means it is getting registered by the digitizer, just held back by drivers, meaning that it is MT capable and is a driver problem like you have always said.

If a 3rd finger doesn't do anything to the first 2 touches that means the digitizer can't recognize it and is only recognizing the first two touches, and isn't a driver problem...

I don't know, the whole thing seems backwards to me...
[XPERIA X10 General] arkedk:
Cool, I've written to a mod just to check the IP's of registration.

Because your writing from Sony Ericsson Talk and this "iDiskyVM" is very distinct with the commas, and punctuations.

Back on topic.

Does anyone have some sort of translation for the video from iAndroid which is in Hebrew?
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
Uhm no, as far as I know, the Nexus One doesn't have any handicaps besides cross-axis bug. Unfortunately Youtube is blocked here at work and I killed my X10 an hour ago with a wrong kernel :D So I'll have to wait until I'm home to watch any video proof. But please post it nonetheless if you find something!
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
If you read my previous posts, hat's exactly my way of thinking. Btw I know for a fact that the Nexus One (DT-panel) doesn't get distorted by a third finger. It doesn't react at all to any additional fingers on the display!

The mods won't find anything, especially if he's writing from SE Talk. Then it would be the IP of his 3G network and the IP of his home/office PC --> 2 IP's, no probs.
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Actually.. NO again.

The firmware only reports back 2 touches.

The fact that the 3rd is ignored without effecting the other 2 is the key.

I find this so funny.

They think i have to stoop as low as making 2 profiles for myself.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi arkedk,

Are you realling thinking this? Succes, but you're not right. May I ask which mod you have written?

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
No, as I said, Nexus One also ignores the third/fourth/whatever touch and still recognizes the first two without distortion. This should be easy to prove once I can access youtube again ^^

Why do you need to know?
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
then why would distortion from a third touch mean that MT isn't possible? Distortion from a 3rd touch means that the digitizer is recognizing some inteference from another touch right?
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Exactly.. that same interference causes the cross axis bug.

In this case it has been programmed into the chip to act that way and only pass the info for the first 2 touches.
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
Exactly. It would mean that it recognizes a touch but is coded to only track two touches. Therefore it confuses the touch locations --> distortion.

Omega, how about my ongoing comparison with Nexus One. No matter if it is another touchscreen, it is only DT-capable --> fact. It ignores a third finger and tracks the first and second correctly --> fact. So how do you explain such a behaviour?
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
+10.. so because the 2 location are not distorted = MT. :)
[XPERIA X10 General] Hzu:
I think he meant the driver is ignoring the 3rd touch. Your theory is the driver is detecting the 3rd touch but the panel has its limit and thus the touch points will be distorted. Or again,it may be a faulty driver.
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=15820422&postcount=73

It's is detected.. but the output is being ignored by the driver.
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=15820388&postcount=72
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=15820479&postcount=75
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
LOL @ global single post reposting ^^

But this competely contradicts your theory! You say DT-panels would distort touch location if a third finger is placed on it. The Nexus One doesn't. The X10 doesn't either. :confused::confused:
[XPERIA X10 General] Lion3494:
@qwer23 Omega is right. When you place two fingers on the screen and add a third the third is ignored. So multi touch should be possible

Sent from my x10 on gingerbread
[XPERIA X10 General] rtblittlebrown:
Think back when we had only single touch and it would only track one finger correctly and would ignore a second finger would you have said it was only single touch capable or can you explain such a behavior

I also believe omega is right
[XPERIA X10 General] Lion3494:
He's not saying it distorts it he's saying it ignores it without distorting it.

Sent from my x10 on gingerbread
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
If we go by Omega's statement that MT is possible but the drivers have been made in such a way that it ignores the 3rd and consequent touches, then how is distortion from a 3rd point proof that there is NO multitouch? That STILL makes no sense to me, and is counter intuitive.

If there is distortion from a 3rd touch, then the digitizer is picking up something OTHER than the two touches already there. BUT, the driver is made in such a way to dissipate and ignore that third touch, but it doesn't completely hide the third finger, just distort its impact enough to stop any noticable effect.

I can't comment on whether no response from a 3rd finger confirms multitouch because it is possible that the driver has been made to ignore it (but it's also possible that the screen is just only DT capable) , but what I don't get is how a distortion from a 3rd touch would disprove multitouch when it could just mean that the driver hasn't been properly optimized to completely hide it.

Hopefully I make sense.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
And that is exactly also what I said. The driver is limited and also not proper written.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
Thanks, this actually makes sense to me. Even though I can't really remember how my screen reacted ^^

Even if it sounded different, I never wanted to claim I know if it is DT or MT. But Omegas point, that if the device ignores a third touch instead of distorting means the display is MT capable didn't make any sense to me because I know how a Nexus One reacts to additional touches.
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
The X10 came with Android 1.6 which didn't support multitouch, so it's possible the SE devs took the shortcut and didn't bother writing drivers which would've enabled the dualtouch because the OS doesn't need it.

Then when 2.1 came out, and with the increasing pressure on SE, they decided to get off their asses and wrote the drivers to enable the dualtouch.

It's completely possible they're hiding multitouch but considering the Desire and N1, both phones which came out the same time as the X10, have the same buggy dualtouch, I'll stick with it that the X10 can max have the dualtouch we have right now.

I'm not completely ruling out MT being possible but if you look at other phones released that time they have the same thing we do.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi qwer23,

Your screen would have reacted just like it does with the third finger.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
You know, I'm feeling stupid to always refer to the Nexus One ^^ But it does exactly what you say here, and it doesn't support MT.

:confused::confused: Sorry, it could be me because I'm slowly but surely losing track of the discussion while I try to post and do my lab work at the same time ^^ But I don't get your post Darky. Could you go into further detail for my confused state of mind?

Nevermind, I got it eventually ^^
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
I completely think it's possible with the correct firmware and or driver.

I think if Z saw this he would agree.

I think that the idea should be better explored.

SE's initial review said MT would come eventually.

and a cross axis bug happens when the axis crosses. "not randomly"
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi qwer23,

You asked the following ''Even though I can't really remember how my screen reacted ^^''

That I replied with that.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] rtblittlebrown:
Due to having a faulty screen driver it could go both ways. Our screen will never completely detect a 3rd finger unless se rewrites the driver or makes it better to the point of alowing more than 2 fingers. As of now we have dualtouch how it reacts to a third finger could say it does have multitouch or it doesnt .........we cant tell. As of now the way it reacts ignoring a third finger,because thats how the screen chip is programmed, instead of screwing the 1st and 2nd touch it makes more since that it is multitouch but doesnt completely 100% mean that
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Why has SE hidden any and all info regarding the touch pad.

All the schematics and circuit diagrams have the touch pad removed.
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
Or...you know...our digitizer is max capable of detecting 2 fingers,like...you know, the other phones that were released at the same time :p
[XPERIA X10 General] rtblittlebrown:
I never said that it wasnt only dualtouch im saying we cant tell for sure but from what we see the chances of MT being possible looks

Good
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
OK, now I'm risking to look really stupid, but if compared to other DT devices, I can't see what differentiates their behaviour from ours. Why do our chances for MT look good then? As far as I can tell, it reacts exactly in the same way than every other released DT-only device.

Please tell me the differences to the DT-only devices (Nexus One, Desire, ...). If I missed them, shame on me.
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
The mini pro may be newer but it has MT and SE has not released MT for it.

ask them why.
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
I don't know but that wasn't my question. What differentiates the touchscreen behaviour of our X10 from the Desire and Nexus One or other phones that have only DT for sure? What is it that makes you think the X10 could have a MT touchscreen compared to the previously named devices? I can't see any prove or at least hint, that doesn't work with a DT-panel as well.
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
Omega and his new account keep ignoring that the nexus one and htc desire react the exact same way....
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
1. I have no evidence of how the other phones act or react. "you yourself said that you are not sure"

2. You people are going to be so shocked to find i only have 1 account.

What i have posted here i am sure of.

If i am wrong then the mods may ban me.

I won't make another account and i will wait out my time.

I am still awaiting proof that i have several accounts.

Also you denied my method of testing

Now you keep digging for other ways to prove me wrong.

I am not your toy, i will not be played with.
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
1. That's right. I'll post evidence as soon as I can. (When I'm @home and find a good video or my neighbor has time to let me make a video from his desire)

2. I couldn't care less :)

Regarding point one: IF they act in the way I claim (cross-axis bug like X10, ignoring third finger while recognizing the first and second), are there any differences at all?
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
If they do not accurately track it then i am right.

If they do then i am wrong.

The device it must be compared to must be 100% proven to be only DT it must have been built for that intention alone.

But remember i have submitted proof that can be re-created over and over.

There for we require someone outside of this discussion that is not biased to submit the same proof.

But what is SE programmed the chip to act exactly like another touch pad...
[XPERIA X10 General] zdzihu:
Those 2 (N1, HTC Desire) have Clearpad2000 digitizer onboard, which is capable of dual-touch detection.

X10 includes Cypress CY8C20466 digitizer, which is capable of muuuultiple touch points detection and much more :). However, as someone said before, it does exactly what OEM wants it to do - if it's programmed to detect 2 touches, that's all it can do.

Some boring tech stuff:

http://www.cypress.com/?id=1575

http://www.cypress.com/?id=1413

Chees,

z
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Thank you !!! thank you!!!

God bless you Z
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
Finally, we have a name for our digitizer. I tried searching and searching but came up with nothing, all that was said that it might not be the Clearpad 2000. So I gave benefit of the doubt that it was the clearpad like all the other phones.

If it's something else then there's a huge chance that MT is possible.
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
Where's proof?

Also, why would they intentionally give us buggy dual touch and not full dual touch then?
[XPERIA X10 General] qwer23:
Wow, and I thought we still don't know which digitizer we have built in. Thanks a lot :) How did we finally find out our type of digitizer?

The point I'm still standing to is, that we cannot see that difference in the touchscreen behaviour or any "tests". But I'll happily let convince me otherwise ^^
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
Z has posted this before.

I thought you people were aware of this.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hello zdzihu,

Thanks for confirming our(/my) thoughts. Let's hope for now, that the Sony Ericsson Dev Team has improved our dual touch. I don't expect it though.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
You conveniently ignore posts frequently.

Where is evidence this is the correct touch pad?

Why would they give us buggy dual touch that just happens to reach exactly like nexus one and htc desire, instead of just giving us dual touch.
[XPERIA X10 General] zdzihu:
http://www.image-upload.net/images/8ffhy5tsui7p6xkteut.jpg

I guess they like to call it "legal reasons" :D

EDIT: Do you remember Apple suying HTC, Motorola and others over the multitouch patents? :)

Cheers,

z
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
link doesn't work....

I don't see what buggy dual touch would accomplish for them, aside from making people ask more questions.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi scoobysnacks,

I think the Sony Ericsson Dev Team hasn't implemented multi touch for us, because of Apple patents, atleast something with patents. The last time also many android phone makers are being sued by Apple, beside Sony Ericsson and some others.

Of course Sony Ericsson won't give multi touch ever to us anymore, because their Arc/Neo/Play and more devices have got it now!

I hope it is a bit clear for you, and ofcourse that you understand my thoughts.

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
I don't buy it....

why bother even giving us dual touch then? they could have stood to their statement that it was only single touch, and none of us would have known the diff
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi scoobysnacks,

You still don't get it? They want to boost their sales for the Arc/Neo/Play and others, to get money!

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] rtblittlebrown:
This is hilarious lololol
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
I "get it" but you ignored my question and act as if I'm an idiot.

Why didn't they leave us at only single touch? We wouldn't have known the diff
[XPERIA X10 General] zdzihu:
I doubt they implemented dual-touch for existing customers ;) In my opinion, it's a good marketing decision to sell more outdated phones.

Also, they've never announced dual-touch support, they always call it "pinch-to-zoom gesture" (patent workaround? I don't know, I'm not good at this).

Cheers,

z
[XPERIA X10 General] iridaki:
SE is the only cellphone company currently NOT suing or being sued by Apple! LOOOOOOL!
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi scoobysnacks,

They didn't leave us with single touch, because many of us wanted pinch-zooming.

@zdzihu, I also guess it's a patent work around. Do you know which files are being used for dual touch and we could use to improve it?

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
I don't think it's that simplistic..

I tend to lean more towards z's response.

Anyhow, I still don't think I fully believe that they managed to give us dual touch that reacts exactly like two other phones and that this is just coincidence.

I want someone to do omega's "test" on one of those phones first
[XPERIA X10 General] OmegaRED^:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=15822594&postcount=98

NO MT = SE sells more new phones.

But never mind the customers that they fobbed off on the x10.
[XPERIA X10 General] iDarkyVM:
Hi scoobysnacks,

Maybe you should ask the moderator if they can check if OmegaRED isn't also zdzihu. Because he has the same thoughts as me and OmegaRED. :D A little bit of sarcasm is not deadly :cool: Ow wait, sorry it was Arkedk that send a PM to the moderators. I'm sorry ;)

Regards,

iDarkyVM
[XPERIA X10 General] scoobysnacks:
I never said anything about asking moderators....

I think you have me mistaken. I came into the convo much after that.
[XPERIA X10 General] arkedk:
Does any of the new range Xperias come with the same TP?

If so couldn't we "just" look for the differences in the sourcecode in the drivers, and add/re-write the parts and compile it?
[XPERIA X10 General] zdzihu:
In the SE sources, there is a Cypress multitouch driver that isn't used for any of the Xperia family (why is it included then?). It's size is about the same as out driver. The relevant firmware size is about the same size as out firmware. But...

Unless the bootloader is cracked/open, we cannot flash the firmware to even check it.

Cheers,

z
[XPERIA X10 General] kantk20111:
That's really interesting. I never knew about this stuff. MT is looking more and more probable now. Thanks.